ICO glory days are done

[iamnotback]

apparently this isn't something to argue. for if one of these token get to be on the market with high value. it wouldn't be scam anymore.

You think ETH is not a scam any more as the insiders allegedly continue to pump it using margin traded creation of demand out-of-thin-air so that at the end bag holders will be holding empty bags worth 0 and the insiders will have siphoned off all the BTC you all invested.

With sufficient ignorance of you speculators, our crypto ecosystem will become nothing but a criminal enterprise. Thank you.

[generalizethis]

apparently this isn't something to argue. for if one of these token get to be on the market with high value. it wouldn't be scam anymore.

That's not how the word scam works. I may sell you a cheap knockoff product (let's say a designer handbag) with full knowledge that the handbag isn't from the designer you think it's from (let's say Louis Vuitton), but if the knock off bag suddenly becomes popular (let's say a famous actress says she loves her knockoff bag by the scam artist more than her real Louis Vuitton bag), and the price rises, that doesn't mean suddenly you were unscammed, it means you got lucky and the scam turned out to profit you as well as the guy who intentionally ripped you off--i.e. a scam isn't dependent on monetary return or benefit, it's only requirement is that someone intended to trade or sell you something that they advertised as something else (usually of inferior quality or of less perceived value).

[iamnotback]

We are just fools:

It seems that a corrupted exchange is an essential ingredient for pumping a crypto currency to $billion nosebleed mcaps, so apparently not only is demand being created out-of-thin-air using margined coins the insiders deceptively obtained from the ICO by buying from themselves (taking out a BTC loan and paying it back after the ICO)...

...but likely also that some high volume exchange is also creating tokens literally out-of-thin-air and is another Mt.Gox or Cryptsy waiting to default when there is a run to withdraw.

A likely essential ingredient in BitCON's rise from $10 to $1200 was because Mt.Gox was creating coins out-of-thin-air and handling most of the BTC volume, so this provided more coins for everyone to leverage and create fake demand with.

So this huge pump in ETH likely means another high volume exchange will end up stealing all your coins again soon.

The way this criminal enterprise crypto-currency enterprise works is that the insiders create tokens out-of-thin-air on the exchanges, then when the ponzi scheme implodes, the "hackers" or owners of the exchange are blamed instead of blaming the real manipulators behind the curtain.

We apparently have criminal gangs in the crypto-currency ecosystem. The DAO attacker says the UGGovt + MIT/Cornell universities are complicit. Others say Goldman Sachs is in this. Probably also Russian criminals, etc..

That is likely why there is no enforcement from the SEC. Because the SEC is owned by the criminal gangs.

Nothing has changed! We have not defeated fiat. We have not defeated the same banksters bastards who are always enslaving us.

We're just fools.

[iamnotback]

Written just before The DAO attack:

So the new normal is write 2080 lines of code (less code than I write in a week) and raise $168 million or don't write any code and use someone else's code and raise $15 million:

Just stay away if you're not invested or slowly sell them without upsetting the price if you're holding them. You are missing the opportunity to invest in other more profitable prospects. Looking at github they have been working on these projects but without any solid results yet. So it might better to wait until they have something to show for and check of their assets are worth to invest in.

Such as Waves which apparently raised $15 million for vaporware and selling a crowdsale pitching IOHK's open source code (and which jl777 was said to be advisor):

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1504381.msg15138357#msg15138357

And Lisk which raised $10 million apparently still has problems in the functioning of the wallet:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1504381.msg15139560#msg15139560

Or The DAO which raised $168 million with only 2080 lines of sol code:

https://github.com/slockit/DAO

Seems these days it is better to be good at marketing and selling ideas than actual code that is stable and ready for the launch.

And another on this topic:

Copy-cat ICO Schemes Unleashed:
You call stayed silent on that and we seen an explosion of copy cat ICO schemes unleashed..
And we seen the greedy profiteer dregs go along with it all so they could profit off them all.

When i asked the dev of BlockNET why he needed a million dollars in Bitcoin
He told me word for word, "to ensure it's a success"

Crypto-Minimum Wage Increase ?
When i started this coin devs would work on projects for FREE.. mostly.
Satoshi did not put his hand out and say i want a MILLION DOLLARS first before i release anything..

It is true that the ICOs aren't really providing any funding for development that matters. It is just the insiders cashing out.

That being said, no top notch s/w developer will work on a risky project that might net him $0, if he can't at least generate $250,000 per year of effort. And that is really on the low end since most of them can make that much (and more with stock options) in a job in silicon valley.

For example, I have been doing research and basically "working" in crypto since 2013. If I launched a project, I would expect to recover those years of investment.

But I also wouldn't waste all the funds on nonsense development of pie-in-the-sky fantasies.

But any way, I am not going to ask anyone to give me an ICO money. Mined distribution is clearly the fair way to launch a coin.

But just keep in mind if the developer is receivng a $million for years of effort, it is really just about break even, if he is a top developer. Please be respectful of the opportunity cost of top developers.

Also even the developers have a right to seek higher ROI. Speculators invest and risk to get a big payoff. When developers invest their time/effort and risk to get a big payoff, this is capitalism.

Having said that, afaik most of the developers of altcoins are not top developers. Afaics, most of them have nearly no experience as employed software developers before their work in crypto. This is excluding the Bitcoin core devs of course. There are experienced developers in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

The DAO is only 2080 lines of source code. And it can never be "fixed" or "finished" any more than it already is, because it is a flawed concept and I have difficulty believing Tual doesn't realize it.. It probably wasn't intended to grow into something great. It was probably a quickie rush to latch on to the euphoria about ETH and so those looking to cash out of ETH at the double-top at $15, had another option The DAO. It was probably a timing and marketing product decision and not an engineering or long-range focus. I could understand your criticism of something like that. But it is a free market and you can't stop them.

[etparle]

ICO's are still going crazy and I think investing correctly is one of the best ways to make good money. Waves I think is still a good investment but is currently going through a shake out. I've followed jl777 before and I know he's very reputable so if he has faith in Waves this only strenghtens mine.

[tokeweed]

Sasha and his waves project will end in scam.

Rise is clearly a scam.

People are only 'investing' in ICOs so they can dump on the first day and 'invest' in the next one. But now everyone is doing this, so there is no greater fool to purchase them.

The glory days are finished.

I disagree.  We're only seeing the beginning.  We have just recently witnessed the possibility that acquiring over 100M USD via ICO is possible.  Now, barring any legal hurdles, I'm pretty sure there's a legit company out there that got their heads turned and are now thinking of the vast possibilities in the 'ICO' crowdfunding space.  Crypto is disrupting investment banking and I hope this space doesn't get regulated in 10 years or so.

[GreenBits]

I think these fools have a few more icos in them before it gets put to bed. This was the same enthusiasm the community had for all the crypto stocks of yesteryear, it literally took almost every project to fail before people finally became reluctant about throwing money at them. I was right along there with them  the icos seem a great way to make some percents, but the risk of ruin is entirely too great. But that's from a somewhat experienced investing perspective, half of these guys are chasing hype and could give a damn about the risks.

Which is why we will have a few more ICOs.

[BellaBitBit]

I figured something like this would happen But in truth, we're seeing "ICO exhaustion." The ICO pyramiders got burned in WAVES and learned a somber lesson about pyramiding.

Myself, it seems the only way I can play the game is by holding for the long-term. Shoulda done that with NEM....

This.  I think at this point it is "ICO exhaustion".  WAVES and RISE were the latest losers for lambo dreamers.  ICO's glory days are not gone as people will continue to create and some of them will be winners.

[iamnotback]

I figured something like this would happen But in truth, we're seeing "ICO exhaustion." The ICO pyramiders got burned in WAVES and learned a somber lesson about pyramiding.

Myself, it seems the only way I can play the game is by holding for the long-term. Shoulda done that with NEM....

Isn't NEM a pyramid?

[iamnotback]

Altcoin speculation is a pyramid:

Thanks for the links and discussion.  I still can not for the life of me wrap my head around the "volume" of alt coins traded recently.  With no transparency into these exchanges, we have no idea what is going on behind the scenes.  I'll put dollars to doughnuts there is more then meets the eye.

It is obvious that the high volume are the insiders buying from themselves in order to control the market price.

The way this works is that if you flood the exchange with high bids and high asks, then the small volume of actually lower asks is insignificant and minor cost for the insider. For example let's say the insider is 99% of the volume (using Sybil identities on the exchange), then the 1% that wants to sell is an insignificant cost to the insider, because the manipulation of the price drives more speculator demand on the bid side than on the ask side.

So in this way, the insider is actually unloading tokens at higher and higher prices. This games goes on until the insiders have unloaded their tokens at nosebleed prices. Then it collapses.

In Ethereum's case, it was alleged by the Dao attacker that the insiders are using their tokens as margin to do margin trades to provide more upside price leverage manipulation. So first you use your tokens buying from yourself to pump up the price, then you use your ETH to short the ETH price, and start selling tokens rapidly to cause a crash in price. You cover your shorts, and repeat the process again driving the price up. But you don't crash the price too far, so as to keep the dream alive. Having very good marketing also helps.

This is why we often see a huge decline in the price after the initial ICO pump, as this enables the insiders to accumulate tokens very cheaply and then the upward price manipulation begins.

Note the insiders need to make sure they are the only large holders, so no one can compete with them and for example sell into their pump.

It seems if you don't do this manipulation, then your token will be scorned by speculators and your reputation as altcoin developers will be tarnished.

The developers if they are honest, will take their funding and continue to work hard. The market manipulators are going to come in and buy up any good coin and pump it. The only way to stop that would be for the developer (and/or the community) to hold the coins tight fisted, but then this creates a dead market such as Monero which has never seen more than 4X gain after the initial pump by rpietila.

So what can an honest developer do  He has no choice but to let the speculators have what they want. The important thing is the developer is funded and able to drive the ecosystem to success. If so, then the downside price crash will be limited or at least a great buying opportunity. Fundamental development (coding) and marketing matters.

But alas, DEX is going to be scorned because the manipulators can't operate there. Or can they? Speculators will go where the (manipulated) volume is.

Speculators learn to play the game.

[barnes13]

Sasha and his waves project will end in scam.

Rise is clearly a scam.

People are only 'investing' in ICOs so they can dump on the first day and 'invest' in the next one. But now everyone is doing this, so there is no greater fool to purchase them.

The glory days are finished.

The glory days are finished aren't finished yet
more carefull to join ICOs research the project and the one important things is prepare to get loss and The glory days comes when you get profit 

[Nxtblg]

I figured something like this would happen But in truth, we're seeing "ICO exhaustion." The ICO pyramiders got burned in WAVES and learned a somber lesson about pyramiding.

Myself, it seems the only way I can play the game is by holding for the long-term. Shoulda done that with NEM....

This.  I think at this point it is "ICO exhaustion".  WAVES and RISE were the latest losers for lambo dreamers.  ICO's glory days are not gone as people will continue to create and some of them will be winners.

Thanks. I know it's hard to remember 'round here, but the real value comes with long-term development. Heck: there was a time when Factom traded below its ICO price. It took a long time to reach >$1 per FCT, but it eventually did. 

[Nxtblg]

Also if you care about the future of our world,...

Well, I figure that the best way to show care about the future of our world (the altcoin micro-world) is to take an interest in the underlying tech and see what it can do.

To be frank, I'm prolly going to pull back from the ICO because keeping up with 'em takes too much durn time.

[Redrose]

False. I invested in Waves, and still have my coins. I just know that someday it will be worth more. You're a typical jealous guy who doesn't have enough money to enter in this ...

Jealous of your coins that you are bagholding for a loss?

I sold mine in the first minute for a 50% profit. You are the one who is in denial pal.

You sold yours when there was nothing. Just imagine what it will be when something will be pushed to work...

[iamnotback]

apparently this isn't something to argue. for if one of these token get to be on the market with high value. it wouldn't be scam anymore.

You think ETH is not a scam any more as the insiders allegedly continue to pump it using margin traded creation of demand out-of-thin-air so that at the end bag holders will be holding empty bags worth 0 and the insiders will have siphoned off all the BTC you all invested.

With sufficient ignorance of you speculators, our crypto ecosystem will become nothing but a criminal enterprise. Thank you.

There are no rules:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1413819.msg15400907#msg15400907

[Dajackal]

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