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Author Topic: ppcoin stake generation tournament  (Read 3579 times)
Jutarul (OP)
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March 13, 2013, 09:51:51 PM
 #1

Abstract
=====

A perpetual tournament is proposed, in which stake holders try to compete against each other for generating the longest consecutive fork. This will provide an empirical means to investigate the security of the ppcoin network and show strengths and weaknesses of the current scheme.

Discussion
=======
The network security model of ppcoin is based on the premise that no particular stake holder can generate POS blocks faster than the network, i.e. the remaining stake holders combined. While this feature is implied by the proportionality between stake generation power and the amount of stake used at any given time, the proportionality is not proven yet. In fact, as the pre-0.3.0 version showed, it is not guaranteed for cases when stake generation power can be augmented by the use of computational power.

Due to incentive and time limitations, a thorough investigation of the POS scheme takes time. To advance this issue, I'd like to propose an empirical way of investigating the effectiveness of individual strategies to augment (temporarily) the stake generation power (POS blocks/time).

Since such a tournament would require lifting the checkpointing mechanism, which currently protects ppcoin from this vulnerability, it would likely have to be carried out on the testnet. However, even better, a special purpose tournament-net could be declared which could be equipped with features important for carrying out such a stress test.

I invite for a discussion of how such a tournament should look like. Comments are highly appreciated.

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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March 13, 2013, 10:07:59 PM
 #2

just seen this and skim read... am well interested and have a small sum of PPC that I stake generate with.. but not of late as wallet locked... but am willing to help test and experiment with, and will post more thoughts here once I have walked the dog Smiley

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March 13, 2013, 10:35:13 PM
 #3

Sounds like a good plan.

I believe a special test net would need to be set up (remove check pointing and assign a new rpc / IP p2p port).

Possibly change the address version just to avoid confusion.

I will put the chain on cryptocoinexplorer.com

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March 13, 2013, 10:46:57 PM
 #4

I'll bring my bladder full of water and a case of bottled water for this PP contest.  Cheesy

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Sunny King
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March 13, 2013, 11:08:43 PM
 #5

Sounds like a good plan.

I believe a special test net would need to be set up (remove check pointing and assign a new rpc / IP p2p port).

Possibly change the address version just to avoid confusion.

I will put the chain on cryptocoinexplorer.com


Why do you need special testnet there is testnet running.

ppcoind -daemon -testnet

You can mine some coins on testnet with cpu easily. Or you can ask me for them.
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March 13, 2013, 11:34:21 PM
 #6

Sounds like a good plan.

I believe a special test net would need to be set up (remove check pointing and assign a new rpc / IP p2p port).

Possibly change the address version just to avoid confusion.

I will put the chain on cryptocoinexplorer.com


Why do you need special testnet there is testnet running.

ppcoind -daemon -testnet

You can mine some coins on testnet with cpu easily. Or you can ask me for them.

My main concern is the removal of check point system. My thought is that it would affect others using the test net for other things, or that a mix of clients using/not using check points might affect the tournament itself.

However, if I am mistaken , it would certainly be easier to use the current test net.  Smiley

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March 13, 2013, 11:54:18 PM
 #7

Why do you need special testnet there is testnet running.

ppcoind -daemon -testnet

You can mine some coins on testnet with cpu easily. Or you can ask me for them.

My main concern is the removal of check point system. My thought is that it would affect others using the test net for other things, or that a mix of clients using/not using check points might affect the tournament itself.

However, if I am mistaken , it would certainly be easier to use the current test net.  Smiley
[/quote]

Testnet doesn't have auto checkpoint.

Although I think it's hard to run on testnet as not many people would be interested.

You can run the contest on mainnet with checkpoint just try to claim consecutive proof-of-stake blocks. Even with checkpoint it won't prevent you from going way above 6 of them if you can generate them fast enough.
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March 14, 2013, 01:29:02 AM
 #8

And here I thought that this last release did not need check pointing.

Did I miss something?

Checkpointing -> broken code

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███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
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                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

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Jutarul (OP)
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March 14, 2013, 03:30:40 PM
 #9

You can run the contest on mainnet with checkpoint just try to claim consecutive proof-of-stake blocks. Even with checkpoint it won't prevent you from going way above 6 of them if you can generate them fast enough.
I would prefer if the blockchain behaves as realistic as possible without checkpoints - and it would make things easier to analyze if the forks are able to incorporate themselves into the main chain for delta>6, because of the lack an absolute clock.

To lead a more specific discussion, for the tournament net I propose to
1) deactivate POW
2) a genesis block is created, where each output contains 10k stake (this may need some fine-tuning) directed towards a ppcoin address of one participant
3) have a quick turn over of the stake, with a 1 day recovery (instead of the 30 days) and 3 days of maturing.
4) allow for a "warm up" period, e.g. 1 week or a number of generated blocks, in which each participant can setup their stake according to their own strategy.
5) After the warm up has ended, declare open season Smiley
6) finish the tournament at a later time, e.g. after 2 weeks or a number of generated blocks.
7) each participant should evaluate the block chain and determine the longest consecutive POS series they were able to generate from their own stake, which got incorporated into the main chain.
8 ) bonus points for successful double spent attacks?
9) declare the results and the winners, at least the winner has to disclose their strategy
10) rinse and repeat

further points:

- In the spirit of game theory I propose that each participant creates a strategy which can be expressed as an algorithm. It can be either a fundamental strategy, e.g. reject all other POS blocks at any given time, or a mix of fundamental strategies.
- a participant can have more the one contender, however each contender must work according to their own rules - and for the simplicity of it, contenders from the same participant should not collaborate. This can be enforced by forbidding mixing coins from different contenders (which would be a reason for disqualification).

outcomes:
- for the tournament we will likely create analytical tools which allow us to analyze and monitor blockchain forks in realtime
- we will learn which stake generation strategies perform best for maximizing the stake generation power
- we promote the POS concept and attract coders and smart people
- have fun

I don't think we will need monetary incentives right now. Later we may declare prizes for ppcoins on the main chain, which are generated from a fee collected for registering a contender.

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
Jutarul (OP)
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March 14, 2013, 03:48:45 PM
 #10

I'll bring my bladder full of water and a case of bottled water for this PP contest.  Cheesy
I LOL'd

No seriously, if a bladder full of water helps squeezing out more stake blocks in a unit of time, I'd want to know Cheesy

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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March 14, 2013, 04:06:20 PM
 #11

Meanwhile, difficulty of PPCoin is rising again  Shocked

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March 14, 2013, 04:11:33 PM
 #12

can this not be mathematically modelled?
Jutarul (OP)
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March 14, 2013, 09:16:31 PM
 #13

can this not be mathematically modelled?
Well you can actually setup your own little blockchain and let each strategy play out. The purpose of a public tournament is to involve more brain power and to discuss the effect of stake generation strategies in the open.

It's of no use if one intelligent member figures out the perfect strategy to augment stake generation power, and the public only learns about it during successful double spend attacks.

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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March 15, 2013, 02:35:20 AM
 #14

Thanks for the invite Jut. I have a decent amount of coins on the main chain with the latest client and I'm somewhat technically literate, but I haven't given much thought yet to how one could attack this chain. I'd like to help out but I don't have anything to contribute right now, if you have any suggestions then let me know and I'll keep an eye on this thread.
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March 15, 2013, 03:04:13 AM
 #15

Thanks for the invite Jut. I have a decent amount of coins on the main chain with the latest client and I'm somewhat technically literate, but I haven't given much thought yet to how one could attack this chain. I'd like to help out but I don't have anything to contribute right now, if you have any suggestions then let me know and I'll keep an eye on this thread.
Right now what you can do is to think about how a tournament net should be designed and what you'd like to be included in a stress test. I am going to push this idea, but I'd like to see people interested beforehand, which includes some brainstorming on the detailed design.

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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March 15, 2013, 03:07:29 AM
 #16

Sounds like a good plan.

I believe a special test net would need to be set up (remove check pointing and assign a new rpc / IP p2p port).

Possibly change the address version just to avoid confusion.

I will put the chain on cryptocoinexplorer.com


Why do you need special testnet there is testnet running.

ppcoind -daemon -testnet

You can mine some coins on testnet with cpu easily. Or you can ask me for them.

This defeats the purpose of what the thread is about. Now we will see if this coin will survive!

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March 15, 2013, 10:48:44 AM
 #17

A perpetual tournament is proposed, in which stake holders try to compete against each other for generating the longest consecutive fork. This will provide an empirical means to investigate the security of the ppcoin network and show strengths and weaknesses of the current scheme.
I've shown before that I can generate large consecutive chains of blocks by just bring the exchange cold wallet online. The first time I did this I got 84 consecutive blocks. The second time over 100. Yesterday I brought another wallet online and left it running. When I closed it overnight it had 400 blocks in 'immature' status. That is probably why POS difficulty is currently 30+. The exchange doesn't have that many coins. There are people out there with more coins than the exchange I'm sure.
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March 15, 2013, 03:11:24 PM
 #18

Can you point me to a description of the new algo? I don't want to dig through all the source code just to see what's improved.

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March 15, 2013, 03:28:12 PM
 #19

Can you point me to a description of the new algo? I don't want to dig through all the source code just to see what's improved.
Unfortunately Sunny decided to skip the release of the design documents and nobody took the time to analyze it yet. There's a release thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144964.0

I've shown before that I can generate large consecutive chains of blocks by just bring the exchange cold wallet online. The first time I did this I got 84 consecutive blocks. The second time over 100. Yesterday I brought another wallet online and left it running. When I closed it overnight it had 400 blocks in 'immature' status. That is probably why POS difficulty is currently 30+.
Yes. But this is mainly an outcome of the mining to be non-competitive. For any consensus mechanism to work it has to be a competitive environment, no exceptions, including POW.

There are people out there with more coins than the exchange I'm sure.
Yes. It's hard to learn anything if the exact numbers are not known. That's where a tournament would help.

The ASICMINER Project https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.0
"The way you solve things is by making it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing.", Milton Friedman
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March 17, 2013, 09:10:42 PM
 #20

Q: Can you fork the chain by turning your client off for a long time, then spamming PoS blocks when it comes back online?

I think the easiest implementation to test this is to just start up the coin with 10,000 coins or whatever in a bunch of public addresses on a test net with PoW disabled.  Then, see if anyone can spam the chain quickly enough with PoS blocks to fork it and do things they shouldn't be able to do, like invalidate transactions.

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