Do you support ICOs?

[Spoetnik]

Think of GUNS !

They *CAN* be used badly.. say to rob a bank.
That is an exception to the rule.

So when you all chant well not all "ICO's are bad"...
I wonder well think about Guns.
THEY ARE REGULATED ..heavily !

We have no regulations for ICO's in the crypto scene.
We DO have regulations in stock market stocks.
This is not the same thing !

https://www.sec.gov/investor/alerts/ia_virtualcurrencies.pdf

I found that "investor Fraud Alert" issued by the SEC on DEC 4th 2015 (same day it came out)
I found it while researching classic Pyramid scheme scams and why
people have long held the believe Bitcoin itself is considered one around the world in the public.

The PDF goes on to issue the warning but also mentioned briefly an un-named forum.
Which is obvious they mean this one.

So what part of this do you all not grasp ?
The part where it says SEC ?
The part where it says Investor ?
Or the part where it says Fraud ?
The part where it says Warning ?
Or the part where it says Alert ?
How about the part where it says Crypto Currency ?

Is that hard to grasp children ?
I just spelled it out really slow for you *again*
How many more time do you have to be told ?

Jeez the world has already thought for 7 years Bitcoin is a scam.
Wonder why ? Google it and read.
Google Pyramid Scheme.. Google "Currency"
Read people !

Just because some ICO bullshit is going on still does not make it legit.

[tokeweed]

I do not exactly know what goes on behind the scenes when a coin/token gets listed but you'll know that a team behind a platform knows what their doing because the maintained volume for their coins is always high right from the beginning.  A prime example of this is Ethereum.

It would be naive to think that the market activity will just come without some kind of manipulation going on to jump start trading.

Wow! So manipulation or die in your opinion?


I am thinking tokeweed is correct:

Thanks for the links and discussion.  I still can not for the life of me wrap my head around the "volume" of alt coins traded recently.  With no transparency into these exchanges, we have no idea what is going on behind the scenes.  I'll put dollars to doughnuts there is more then meets the eye.

It is obvious that the high volume are the insiders buying from themselves in order to control the market price.

The way this works is that if you flood the exchange with high bids and high asks, then the small volume of actually lower asks is insignificant and minor cost for the insider. For example let's say the insider is 99% of the volume (using Sybil identities on the exchange), then the 1% that wants to sell is an insignificant cost to the insider, because the manipulation of the price drives more speculator demand on the bid side than on the ask side.

So in this way, the insider is actually unloading tokens at higher and higher prices. This games goes on until the insiders have unloaded their tokens at nosebleed prices. Then it collapses.

In Ethereum's case, it was alleged by the Dao attacker that the insiders are using their tokens as margin to do margin trades to provide more upside price leverage manipulation. So first you use your tokens buying from yourself to pump up the price, then you use your ETH to short the ETH price, and start selling tokens rapidly to cause a crash in price. You cover your shorts, and repeat the process again driving the price up. But you don't crash the price too far, so as to keep the dream alive. Having very good marketing also helps.

This is why we often see a huge decline in the price after the initial ICO pump, as this enables the insiders to accumulate tokens very cheaply and then the upward price manipulation begins.

Note the insiders need to make sure they are the only large holders, so no one can compete with them and for example sell into their pump.

It seems if you don't do this manipulation, then your token will be scorned by speculators and your reputation as altcoin developers will be tarnished.

The developers if they are honest, will take their funding and continue to work hard. The market manipulators are going to come in and buy up any good coin and pump it. The only way to stop that would be for the developer (and/or the community) to hold the coins tight fisted, but then this creates a dead market such as Monero which has never seen more than 4X gain after the initial pump by rpietila.

So what can an honest developer do   He has no choice but to let the speculators have what they want. The important thing is the developer is funded and able to drive the ecosystem to success. If so, then the downside price crash will be limited or at least a great buying opportunity. Fundamental development (coding) and marketing matters.

But alas, DEX is going to be scorned because the manipulators can't operate there. Or can they? Speculators will go where the (manipulated) volume is.

Speculators learn to play the game.

I do not exactly know what goes on behind the scenes when a coin/token gets listed but you'll know that a team behind a platform knows what their doing because the maintained volume for their coins is always high right from the beginning.  A prime example of this is Ethereum.

It would be naive to think that the market activity will just come without some kind of manipulation going on to jump start trading.

Wow! So manipulation or die in your opinion?

Nope, I'm neutral.  But that's reality.  It's all I'm saying.

I had sort of religious transformation of sorts and come out of my dogmatic cave to see the light of day.

1. When no whale is supporting the volume and price by manipulating with his tokens, then the price will decline and thus a whale will be able to accumulate low and then begin manipulating. So preventing manipulation is really difficult. Monero seems to have been able to do it, by selling "holier than thou" Jim Jones koolaid locking their supporters into a perpetually underperforming token but most other tokens aren't able to achieve this Zen masochism:

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/monero/

Note XMR has good volume though. So it has apparently some savvy traders who employ leverage.

2. Thus we might as well as accept that manipulation is really just trading. When speculators play, they must understand the rules. And that is there are no rules preventing manipulation. Thus to be competitive, manipulation is part of the game.

3. A coin developer has the choice of letting someone else do the manipulation for him (e.g. Bobsurplus and destroy the token such as Bitbay), or do it themselves so as to more beneficially maximize the long-term value of the token and project.

Wall Street has been using tactics that employ manipulation to great effect.  I don't know why it would be different in crypto.  If you think it's dirty now, wait until the experts of Wall Street enter the scene.  

[fartbags]

Do you support projects that run ICOs? Do you think that's okay or a no go?

ICOs are a good idea but they have not been done very well yet. Here are some tips for people looking to start an ICO.

- Do not sell off 100% of all coins in 1 big crowdsale.
- Sell off 10% in order to build a plan.
- Sell off more to complete that plan.
- Sell off more to do marketing.

Instead of raising 100 million USD. Raise $50,000 USD and build a plan. Then raise $100,000 a month to build it. Then raise millions for marketing.

[GridLocked]

I do. Ico is a far way to help build something and get in at the ground floor while building it.

[bones261]

Do you support projects that run ICOs? Do you think that's okay or a no go?

They are a no go for me. I tried many of these out and made a little profit. However, in the end, I always ended up complaining and starting to FUD, which was well deserved for all of them. One should be fearful, uncertain and doubtful when it comes to these. I am now saving myself the painful step of buying into these and will be going straight to FUD. It's just not worth the pittance that I ever profited from any of them.

[Anoona]

I just support ICOs who has a escrow address and where I can see something new, but I think 95% are scam, specially Yobit ICOs (At least in the signature campaign Yobit pays so good hahahaha).

[bones261]

I just support ICOs who has a escrow address and where I can see something new, but I think 95% are scam, specially Yobit ICOs (At least in the signature campaign Yobit pays so good hahahaha).

Even the ones that use an escrow address are bad. I've seen so many projects do the bare minimum to meet the conditions of the escrow and fizzle out in a month or less. I for one, am going to absolve never to stick my toe and check the waters of any of these again. So far, I have only found that they are all cesspools of greed.

[ezview]

I do support them. Sometimes I make money doing it and sometimes I end up a bagholder but most of the time im happy about my decision.

[Spoetnik]

ICO's are for what ? What is THE point ?
I think they are all pyramid scheme's pretty much..
Why ?
Look at the old Water Filter scam from the 80's etc.
Was the product sold and worth it ? NOPE.
If people wanted a water filter they could have just gone to the store & bought one.
There was far more to it than that !

So what is the ICO "product"

Fantastic uber elite super technological innovations that will blow you away and rock the world and change the Universe for ever & ever ?

Oh yeah ?
LIKE WHAT ?
DAPP'S ? 

None of these Altcoins (ICO or not) has had a real innovation over Bitcoin in 7 years.
If there was a TRUE REAL innovation it would be reflected crystal clear in the price of the Altcoin.
Instead we see an Altcoin worth cents and BTC worth $700.. a staggering difference !

You know how many times you all have whined and cawed like crows to me..
"They are like penny stocks" ? ..Uhhhm that is not a good thing 
Read my comment earlier about the recession ?

I have you all defending them hog tied.. you have 0 valid retorts.
You keep all trying to replay the same old cliched moronic excuses.
and they fail as always.

The only thing happening here is repetition..
What is happening on the forum is you guy think if you out-post-count the guys exposing the fraud..
then you can still lure in some victims that are vulnerable to your smart contract ICO techno faggotry schemes.

A facade.. playing out for attention.

These guys have argued with the same other guys 100's of times.
They are only saying it for the reader who comes here watching things
and... So they can sucker them into buying ICO scam coins.
WHY ?

Because they are BAG HOLDING them.. and they only make profit when other guys get suckered into
claims of "the future"

"They" all have a financial agenda backing their defense of ICO's.
They also admit these ICO's are are manipulated on Markets (with no regulations)
And so are their forum comments
The comments here are just as manipulative as the markets ..why would they be different ?

THEY want your money ..i do NOT.

So i ask you the real intended target of all this.. (the audience)
Don't be low hanging fruit to these sleazy greedy loser douche bag profiteers.
They will put $1 in your hand to sucker you so they can get all of your money later.
THEY feed you bullshit while they have their hand in your pocket.

Welcome to www.CryptoHandWaiving.org 

If you are stupid enough to buy ICO's then i have a special offer for you..
You see my Cousin is a Nigerian Prince and he can't access his money with getting 10k for fee's.
So if you can help "crowd fund" for the Prince he would be so grateful.. PM me for TX details.
There will be a handsome reward of course.

[dearbesz1219]

Yes!  I support the ICO of any coin who will do the campaign,  as long as they will surely fulfill what they said in the project.
Because most of the ICO I participated so far its good base in my experience.

[shanem]

I support ICOs if the developers are trustworthy and know what to do with the money raised. There were many instances where the developers wasted the money and the coin was dead after less than a year.

Without any regulation in crypto, it is important for us to do our own research to find out on the prospects of the ICO.

[raphma]

I support ICOs if the developers are trustworthy and know what to do with the money raised. There were many instances where the developers wasted the money and the coin was dead after less than a year.

Without any regulation in crypto, it is important for us to do our own research to find out on the prospects of the ICO.

even with research it's not easy to find a good ICO, they all have pros and cons so in the end it will be more about luck then search.
i've searched about waves before and didnt find problems, and look the mess it was in the launch.. look the price going at 1/2 ico price.

lisk had some cons against it and still did 3 times ico price at the launch.

[HellSpawn.]

No, Because mostly is pure SCAM.

[GreenBits]

No, Because mostly is pure SCAM.

Lol, I was about to come in here and be blunt like this, but you beat me to the punch. I figure, if the asset were that awesome, we would have never heard about it because some company that sees its worth would have came and snapped it up. So the fact that they have to rely on the public for VC, instead of institutional VC, makes me feel some of this is simply too bleeding edge to be a sound investment.

[Spoetnik]

I support ICOs if the developers are trustworthy and know what to do with the money raised. There were many instances where the developers wasted the money and the coin was dead after less than a year.

Without any regulation in crypto, it is important for us to do our own research to find out on the prospects of the ICO.

Trust ?

You are only concerned with trust to ensure you get you profits.

i did not hear how you would support them *IF* the project was legit.
Why ?
Because you and the others do not care.. what *IT* is.

Why do you think there is 7,000,000,000 people and 2,300 of them here daily ?
If this bullshit was legit it would be obvious.
Sorry there is no debate ..it's a ghost town here.

[addias]

I will only support ICOs by signature and bounties campaigns. If I have enough interest in an ICO, I will wait until it hits an exchange. I will let the market decide the price.

[HellSpawn.]

No, Because mostly is pure SCAM.

Lol, I was about to come in here and be blunt like this, but you beat me to the punch. I figure, if the asset were that awesome, we would have never heard about it because some company that sees its worth would have came and snapped it up. So the fact that they have to rely on the public for VC, instead of institutional VC, makes me feel some of this is simply too bleeding edge to be a sound investment.

in the most cases is SCAM.

[Batelk]

We have to pay the developers. So ICO can be a way to set up the project initially. It might support the devlopement from scratch.

[clownius]

We have to pay the developers. So ICO can be a way to set up the project initially. It might support the devlopement from scratch.

Why do we have to pay them?

If they really believe in their coin they can simply use their early adopter status to mine large amounts in the early days when there is low difficulty and little competition.  They are sure to make a porfit later.

Instead they demand tens of thousands of dollars from the ICO and then hand themselves a big premine....

[StakeFrenzy]

Personally, I try to avoid them