BFL says ALL SALES FINAL

[smoothie]

Someone PMed me this image. Can someone verify this?

 http://i.imm.io/Zmcl.png

All sales are final? That's different.

SO NO REFUNDS ANYMORE IF YOU ORDER NOW?

[1715301367]

1715301367

[Red_Evil]

prove enough http://products.butterflylabs.com/featured-products/60gh-bitcoin-miner.html

[cedivad]

The chips are fine.

[smoothie]

SO is it true if you order now ALL SALES ARE FINAL??

[ProfMac]

The chips are fine.

Source?

[Vagnavs]

I asked for a refund about a week ago and was given it. A couple days later via my PayPal account. Granted I placed the order in February 2013.
Regards
Brian

[repentance]

This had to come.  Once they have a working product, new sales are pretty much back orders rather than pre-orders.  Should "two months or more" blow out to 6 months, it's doubtful consumer protection laws would be on the side of BFL, though.

Once they commit to their bulk order, they don't want people cancelling their orders if some new player enters they market who can supply ASICs off the shelf.  While that makes a lot of business sense, "two months or more" is way too vague and I don't think anyone trusts BFL to get on top of their delivery times any time soon - so this may actually discourage new orders as people envisage the nightmare of ordering now and being unable to cancel their orders even if they haven't been fulfilled in 6 months.

Recent communications from Jody to customers requesting refunds have indicated that their new attitude is "all sales are final but we will still consider refund requests on an individual basis".  This is a major shift away from her previous "we understand some of you may not be able to wait - drop us a line if you want a refund" position.  

That said, it's clear that quite a lot of people have relied on the previous refund policy as some kind of hedge and were planning on cancelling their BFL orders if they could acquire ASICs from someone else sooner or if the hash rate rose "too much" before they received their ASICs.  BFL should probably give people with old orders one last chance to cancel before instituting a harsher refund policy and make the no-refund period explicit.

[Surpbitcoin]

FUCK BFL!

 

[smoothie]

This had to come.  Once they have a working product, new sales are pretty much back orders rather than pre-orders.  Should "two months or more" blow out to 6 months, it's doubtful consumer protection laws would be on the side of BFL, though.

Once they commit to their bulk order, they don't want people cancelling their orders if some new player enters they market who can supply ASICs off the shelf.  While that makes a lot of business sense, "two months or more" is way too vague and I don't think anyone trusts BFL to get on top of their delivery times any time soon - so this may actually discourage new orders as people envisage the nightmare of ordering now and being unable to cancel their orders even if they haven't been fulfilled in 6 months.

Recent communications from Jody to customers requesting refunds have indicated that their new attitude is "all sales are final but we will still consider refund requests on an individual basis".  This is a major shift away from her previous "we understand some of you may not be able to wait - drop us a line if you want a refund" position.  

That said, it's clear that quite a lot of people have relied on the previous refund policy as some kind of hedge and were planning on cancelling their BFL orders if they could acquire ASICs from someone else sooner or if the hash rate rose "too much" before they received their ASICs.  BFL should probably give people with old orders one last chance to cancel before instituting a harsher refund policy and make the no-refund period explicit.

I dont see a working product. Just pictures and boxes of fans. More hot air.

[BaronMcG]

cash flow problems maybe ?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

It's being there for a while now (since the site redesign). They might still refund you if you ask.

[repentance]

cash flow problems maybe ?

They're definitely going to run into cash flow problems at some point if the gap between payment and delivery doesn't close significantly.  A combination of mass cancellations and few new orders would hurt them.  Interestingly, their website still says "pre-order now" so they're not in a great position to play the "all sales are final" card.

[smoothie]

cash flow problems maybe ?

THIS. They can't afford to have TOO MANY CUSTOMERS REQUEST REFUNDS. Their little bubble they created would pop.

[Gator-hex]

"It's being there for a while now (since the site redesign). They might still refund you if you ask."

No it hasn't, the evidence of that is on the thread "BFL Fuck Us Over Again"
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=150803.260

It was added when they changed the delivery schedule from mid Feb to mid March and that was done today/yesterday.

It does translate as "no refunds".

For those that don't know they built a prototype board and tested it (yesterday/day before), didn't say how it went (despite asking) but they did do a poll of how people would feel if there were less than 4/8 chips but reached MH/s targets, then Luke-Jr was put on a flight over there at BFLs expense.

Make of all that what you will.

[BitcoinINV]

This had to come.  Once they have a working product, new sales are pretty much back orders rather than pre-orders.  Should "two months or more" blow out to 6 months, it's doubtful consumer protection laws would be on the side of BFL, though.

I do not think they would be on bfl's side either
 
As of today there FAQ still says this which some fuel for that fire.

[creativex]

You need not be a lawyer to recognize that their policy is a violation of consumer protection laws in the US. It may be safer for BFL to hold investor pre-order funds hostage, but that doesn't supersede FTC prompt delivery regulations. Regulations which they've been in violation of for months already.

Hey, remember the old "orders will be refundable after 12/31/2012 if we fail to deliver" language? Man, those were the days! 

[BitcoinINV]

Wait I just read it lol.

It says they will be issuing refunds after Jan 1st. So what changed?

[Syke]

Wait I just read it lol.

It says they will be issuing refunds after Jan 1st. So what changed?

Seems the pre-order funds are running low. Gotta stop the refunds asap.

[repentance]

You need not be a lawyer to recognize that their policy is a violation of consumer protection laws in the US. It may be safer for BFL to hold investor pre-order funds hostage, but that doesn't supersede FTC prompt delivery regulations. Regulations which they've been in violation of for months already.

Hey, remember the old "orders will be refundable after 12/31/2012 if we fail to deliver" language? Man, those were the days! 

BFL being in violation of FTC prompt delivery regulations helps customers how?  They can't be directed to deliver a product which doesn't exist.  They can be directed to give refunds but to date they've been doing that voluntarily anyway.  They can likely be fined, but that doesn't directly benefit customers (administrative penalties generally don't).

BFL would argue that failure to request a refund amounted to consent by the customers to the delay.  Customers would argue that they failed to cancel because BFL repeatedly led them to believe that delivery was imminent.

When dealing with regulatory agencies, one of the first questions you need to ask is what you want them to do?  

[PuertoLibre]

cash flow problems maybe ?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=136392.msg1601387#msg1601387

[creativex]

You need not be a lawyer to recognize that their policy is a violation of consumer protection laws in the US. It may be safer for BFL to hold investor pre-order funds hostage, but that doesn't supersede FTC prompt delivery regulations. Regulations which they've been in violation of for months already.

Hey, remember the old "orders will be refundable after 12/31/2012 if we fail to deliver" language? Man, those were the days! 

BFL being in violation of FTC prompt delivery regulations helps customers how?  They can't be directed to deliver a product which doesn't exist.  They can be directed to give refunds but to date they've been doing that voluntarily anyway.  They can likely be fined, but that doesn't directly benefit customers (administrative penalties generally don't).

BFL would argue that failure to request a refund amounted to consent by the customers to the delay.  Customers would argue that they failed to cancel because BFL repeatedly led them to believe that delivery was imminent.

When dealing with regulatory agencies, one of the first questions you need to ask is what you want them to do?

Don't care. In fact I don't think much more of the FTC than I do the CFTC or even BFL for that matter. We all know what they've done. We all know how much they've cost people with their bs. We all know the character of the execs at BFL. How many people sold their FPGAs in anticipation of BFL's HONEST ABE October shipping schedule? GPU farms? They've cost a lot of people some serious change with their scammy shell games, deceptive marketing ploys, and outright lies.

It's not my problem, I never ordered from them, and I sure ain't gonna run and tell daddy on them, but I also refuse to gloss over the slimy scammy nature of what these con men have done.

[PuertoLibre]

Watch the refunds in action. A true test if their sales are actually "final or not'.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/1332-how-do-i-cancel-my-order.html

[repentance]

Watch the refunds in action. A true test if their sales are actually "final or not'.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/1332-how-do-i-cancel-my-order.html

I'm fucked if I know what customer service is so busy with given that they should have been spending most of their time on putting units in boxes and shipping them by now. 

[creativex]

No clue. In fact given that BFL appears to have outsourced everything I have no idea what these people actually do with their work days.

[glitch003]

Interesting: http://business.ftc.gov/documents/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreeing to the delay. But for longer or indefinite delays - and second and subsequent delays - you must get the customer's written, electronic or verbal consent to the delay. If the customer doesn't give you his okay, you must promptly refund all the money the customer paid you without being asked by the customer.

Finally, you have the right to cancel orders that you can't fill in a timely manner, but you must promptly notify the customer of your decision and make a prompt refund.

[repentance]

Interesting: http://business.ftc.gov/documents/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreeing to the delay. But for longer or indefinite delays - and second and subsequent delays - you must get the customer's written, electronic or verbal consent to the delay. If the customer doesn't give you his okay, you must promptly refund all the money the customer paid you without being asked by the customer.

Finally, you have the right to cancel orders that you can't fill in a timely manner, but you must promptly notify the customer of your decision and make a prompt refund.

Nobody's disagreeing that BFL has contravened this regulation, but it still only entitles customers to a refund. 

[cedivad]

The chips are fine.

Source?

I'm trolling, I tough it was evident.

[Red_Evil]

http://butterflylabs.com/ and now Offline since some Hours ?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Wait I just read it lol.

It says they will be issuing refunds after Jan 1st. So what changed?

Seems the pre-order funds are running low. Gotta stop the refunds asap.

Hate to do this to you Syke, but you're wrong. More than one of the BFL crew clearly stated that only a few orders were canceled. They've also stated that no pre-order moneys were used for development, inferring that if everybody cancelled all at once, everybody would be promptly paid in full with no questions asked.

To prove that the above is factual, I invite Josh to refute it.

~Bruno K~

[repentance]

They've also stated that no pre-order moneys were used for development, inferring that if everybody cancelled all at once, everybody would be promptly paid in full with no questions asked.

Your powers of inference are getting shaky Phin.  Stating that no pre-order funds were used for development in no way implies that they haven't been used for other expenses or that they're quarantined.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

They've also stated that no pre-order moneys were used for development, inferring that if everybody cancelled all at once, everybody would be promptly paid in full with no questions asked.

Your powers of inference are getting shaky Phin.  Stating that no pre-order funds were used for development in no way implies that they haven't been used for other expenses or that they're quarantined.

Tired, hence the incorrect word choice.

[repentance]

Tired, hence the incorrect word choice.

No, it's an important point which I think you're right to raise.  BFL have never said that all pre-order money remains untouched, only that it wasn't being used to fund development.  They could very easily clarify whether or not pre-order funds have been untouched except for refunds if they wanted to (tired, poor grammar).

[tytus]

http://butterflylabs.com/ and now Offline since some Hours ?

Is there any info about the Luke-JR's trip ?

[Gator-hex]

http://butterflylabs.com/ and now Offline since some Hours ?

The connection has timed out
The server at www.butterflylabs.com is taking too long to respond.

Is there any info about the Luke-JR's trip ?

Just the usual bring us back photos, and that it's paid for by BFL
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/luke-jr/97-preparing-my-trip-bfl.html#comments

[repentance]

http://butterflylabs.com/ and now Offline since some Hours ?

The connection has timed out
The server at www.butterflylabs.com is taking too long to respond.

It went offline a while back and came back up.  The forum and the website are both down now, though.

[creativex]

http://butterflylabs.com/ and now Offline since some Hours ?

The connection has timed out
The server at www.butterflylabs.com is taking too long to respond.

meh...

Friday morning garbage pickup?

[greyhawk]

Isn't Luke Jr. at BFL today?

And Luke entered the temple and drove out all those who were mining and crafting in the temple, and overturned the benches of the assemblers and the seats of those who were selling butterflies.

[Red_Evil]

A Little later : BFL Closed , No refunds ,,,, Goodbye ... the tickets was for all Employer to the Caribic ... not only for Jr

Update :

[Big Time Coin]

Isn't Luke Jr. at BFL today?

And Luke entered the temple and drove out all those who were mining and crafting in the temple, and overturned the benches of the assemblers and the seats of those who were selling butterflies.

good one, lol

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Isn't Luke Jr. at BFL today?

And Luke entered the temple and drove out all those who were mining and crafting in the temple, and overturned the benches of the assemblers and the seats of those who were selling butterflies.

good one, lol

Looks to me like some followers are forking their religion, perhaps entering a cult. I've even noticed that I. Ron Butterfly added a new song in the hymnal: In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida. I, for one, plan on attending Chipstock, a million-man-concert produced by Dank.

[creativex]

LOL

Yer on a roll today PG.