[POLL] Should Butterfly Labs (BFL) get a Scammer tag?

[Multifarious]

I voted yes after receiving a refund of about 6BTC when I wrote them a mail asking back the 70BTC i paid back in September based on their lies at that time (I was stupid enough to provide a btc address in this mail).

So, I missed the opportunity to sell my 70BTC with good profit during the bubble and I dont have an order anymore. They refuse to reinstate the order now as well.

Soooo...let me get this straight...you paid BTC70 in September (valued at, what, $700-840 or so..assuming $10-12 a coin)...and you hate BFL because they didn't give you $17,000+ back during the bubble?

Are you retarded?

Did you actually pay in BTC, or just pay through BitPay? Cause if you actually paid with BTC, then yeah, you got fucked.

[1715101860]

1715101860

[1715101860]

1715101860

[Korbman]

Did you actually pay in BTC, or just pay through BitPay? Cause if you actually paid with BTC, then yeah, you got fucked.

They're one in the same.

How buying a product from Butterfly Labs works:

Method #1: Paypal
Log on to Paypal >> Pay for the preorder through debit or credit >> BFL gets your cash

Method #2: Wire Transfer
Get bank info from BFL >> Contact your bank and send money to the account >> Wait a week or two >> BFL gets your cash

Method #3: Bitcoins
BFL sends you to BitPay >> BitPay calculates the cost in BTC >> Send BTC to BitPay >> BitPay instantly converts those coins to cash >> BFL gets your cash

The common theme here is that Butterfly labs doesn't deal in Bitcoins...

[Multifarious]

Did you actually pay in BTC, or just pay through BitPay? Cause if you actually paid with BTC, then yeah, you got fucked.

They're one in the same.

How buying a product from Butterfly Labs works:

Method #1: Paypal
Log on to Paypal >> Pay for the preorder through debit or credit >> BFL gets your cash

Method #2: Wire Transfer
Get bank info from BFL >> Contact your bank and send money to the account >> Wait a week or two >> BFL gets your cash

Method #3: Bitcoins
BFL sends you to BitPay >> BitPay calculates the cost in BTC >> Send BTC to BitPay >> BitPay instantly converts those coins to cash >> BFL gets your cash

The common theme here is that Butterfly labs doesn't deal in Bitcoins...

Yeah, that's what the website said, but I didn't know if they had changed it in the time since he bought the ASIC. I thought maybe at one time you could send straight BTC to BFL w/o BitPay as the middle-man.

I assume your response means that they have not.

[01BTC10]

BFL might deliver but the unbelievable amount of lies deserve a scammer tag.

[FCTaiChi]

Maybe I have missed it, but I haven't seen anyone actually state any contractual obligations that were ignored by BFL.  I think this may greatly help your case.

If there are none, it is possible that they are abusing the loose obligations placed upon them.  Even if they are not specifically violating their agreement, at some point the line has to be drawn.  I think that is what this poll is asking.

[Frizz23]

... at some point the line has to be drawn. 

The line will draw itself. Once difficulty is so high that BFL devices won't make any money people will stop pre-ordering. And start requesting refunds in masses.

Until then: Greed will fuel BFLs order queue.

[smoothie]

... at some point the line has to be drawn. 

The line will draw itself. Once difficulty is so high that BFL devices won't make any money people will stop pre-ordering. And start requesting refunds in masses.

Until then: Greed will fuel BFLs order queue.

I think a season of winter in bitcoin is coming...

Not sure how long it will be but that cant be good for BFL customers.

[keepinithamsta]

Regardless of scam accusations, they need to ship soon or they will collapse under their own weight now that ASICMINER is taking open orders even though it's at 10x the amount.  Even though I don't have the money, I would rather spend 10x the amount instead of waiting an unspecified amount of time.

[billotronic]

Regardless of scam accusations, they need to ship soon or they will collapse under their own weight now that ASICMINER is taking open orders even though it's at 10x the amount.  Even though I don't have the money, I would rather spend 10x the amount instead of waiting an unspecified amount of time.

Agreed!

[iANDROID]

4. When will the BitForce SC be available, and how fast are they?
Our ASIC based products ranging from 3.5 GH/s to 1,000 GH/s are currently scheduled for availability in October, 2012.

[mgio]

Maybe I have missed it, but I haven't seen anyone actually state any contractual obligations that were ignored by BFL.  I think this may greatly help your case.

If there are none, it is possible that they are abusing the loose obligations placed upon them.  Even if they are not specifically violating their agreement, at some point the line has to be drawn.  I think that is what this poll is asking.

Claiming they would deliver a product by the end of October in early October was fraud, plain and simple. There is no way they could have actually delivered anything at that point and they knew it. They would never be able to convince a court that they were that clueless about the time it takes to design an ASIC and get it up and running, test it, manufacture it, and ship it.

The funny thing is that they probably actually were pretty fast in designing their product when compared to others who have done so. It was just all the lies that made it look like they were so late.

There needs to be a class action lawsuit, or investigation by the attorney general to see what they were really intending when they announce a late October shipping date. My guess is that it was done to spur on more pre-orders and scare away their competitors. That is illegal. I bet a subpoena of their e-mails and internal memos would should that is exactly what they were doing.

Thus, I believe they deserve the scammer tag.

[Frizz23]

Maybe I have missed it, but I haven't seen anyone actually state any contractual obligations that were ignored by BFL.  I think this may greatly help your case.

If there are none, it is possible that they are abusing the loose obligations placed upon them.  Even if they are not specifically violating their agreement, at some point the line has to be drawn.  I think that is what this poll is asking.

Maybe you should have a read at this here:

This is all in September of the year 2012. I was led to believe according to this evidence that the units were to begin shipping soon. So as a consumer I based my decision on this. At the time I did not know any of the history behind the BFL company. Check the links and most important CHECK THE DATES.

JOSH what were you shipping soon in Nov? that turned in to Dec?

Is this clear enough for you to understand now?

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/16-announcement-bfl-asic-release-specifications.html

Here is an image I have copied in case the page disappears

Josh Zerlan, a BFL representative, expects to have chips in hand by the end of November and begin initial shipments shortly after. The number of units to be shipped in the first batch has not yet been determined. Josh also released new photos of the heat sinks for our viewing pleasure.

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/bfl-confirms-65nm-process-for-sc-lineup/





Go check the dates

This is not the only instance i found and this is pretty damning evidence that I believe no one could refuse.

Then you have this http://bitcoinmagazine.com/butterfly-labs-releases-more-asic-photos/ which is dated for Oct 19, 2012. Here is an image of the page title along with the date highlighted.



And now look at the comments made. Wow better hurry and get those pre-orders in NOW!!!



Notice the dates moving along?

[FCTaiChi]

None of those specifically quote him as saying anything, so it's hard to know what his phrasing is.
I haven't seen all of the information available on this.  I'm going on what I've read here, and a couple other threads.
Thanks for the response Frizz23!  I am interested in this as I would love to have some of their machines, but they do seem to be acting strangely.
MooC says that he was going to ship in Nov, but the article states he wouldn't even get the chips until late Nov.  I'm not sure how big of an operation they have, but I could see it taking a few months to turn those into however many thousands of machines.  As to why they didn't start sending them as they were built, I haven't seen a good answer to that.

[Zephir]

I have the best woman for Josh found at Gordon Ramsays kitchen nightmare this week.
She has the same crazy behavior like Josh, if somebody critisize her.

Examples:
If you don´t like the meals she is cooking, your taste is wrong.
Don´t say anything, if you have to wait 1.5h for your pizza in a nearly empty restaurant, or you have to pay and go.

Really crazy stuff, watch yourself:

Part 1/2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6LY7TJ16pg

Part2/2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XQDtoHpAWhg

[MooC Tals]

There is no reason BFL should get a scammer tag - It isn't their fault that people fell for a product that was clearly advertised and never be made public that it was going to be late and with more money and more power consumption.

ftfy

I have not added my yes vote..... yet

[EBM]

How exactly bitching on BFL, Tom and others, who failed to deliver on time or didn't delivered at all, but didn't ran away with money, helps?

Shows the community keeps its own house in order, has a collective brain, isn't fooled en masse by scammers, etc.

Sweeping bad news under the carpet and expecting it to stay there? One word for that in the online Age: impossible.


PS. Question is not 'should BFL get a scammer tag', it's 'why the hell did BFL not get a scammer tag six months ago?'

Money up front and a year overdue: the scam has happened already.

Still, let's have more BFL adverts!

[Xian01]

Complaining about BFL can result in forced cancellations of your pre-orders.

Be careful folks.

[smoothie]

Complaining about BFL can result in forced cancellations of your pre-orders.

Be careful folks.

I guess it is a good thing I have no preorders with BFL.

[Bitsaurus]

Complaining about BFL can result in forced cancellations of your pre-orders.

Be careful folks.

Mums the word.

[MooC Tals]

Complaining about BFL can result in forced cancellations of your pre-orders.

Be careful folks.

Mums the word.

Sock puppet is the word...... or wear protection....