Let`s file a lawsuit against Butterfly Labs

[a_z]

Hello everyone (including Butterfly Labs hired posters),

My order number with BFL was 14821, pay-dated 12/12/2012. I asked for a refund, but I only got 60 BTC and not 193 BTC as I initially sent. I saw a similar "locked thread" where other folks had the same problem. I paid in BTC, I want my BTC back. I even called Butterfly Labs and the person on the phone was able to produce only two phrases over a 5 min discussion/monologue :

- "we wouldn`t have had this conversation if the price of BTC went down" - totally absurd taking into account the current situation... It`s like saying that the sun won`t rise tomorrow morning. BTC is far from fall.
- "that`s not gonna happen" - I think it will happen and it must happen since BFL is making money out of buying and selling BTC with funds received as preorders.

What most folks here don`t realize is that BFL DOESN`T NEED TO PRODUCE A VALID PRODUCT, they only need to keep the charade going for as much as possible. THEY ARE MAKING MONEY WITH YOUR MONEY and think that are going to get away with it. They have hired posters, and most likely I will get 3-4 answers from members with 100+ posts saying the "refund in USD" story.

Moreover, when I placed my order, I read a post on BFL forums written by Josh himself (accused of fraud... another coincidence maybe) in which he stated that refunds can be made in BTC upon "special request". Of course, the post has magically vanished.....

As educated consumers, we have the right to defend ourselves against this very well elaborated scam. We can:

- file a common law suit ( I will hire an attorney in the following days and display his name so that all of you who are in the same situation may contact him and join me in the lawsuit)
- speak out online. Use websites like ripoffreport.com, aa419.com, scambook.com, ic3.gov to ask for your money back.
- sooner or later law enforcement will come down hard on the company (unless they are already on to it), so time is the essence here.
- don`t be afraid or ashamed to speak out. It is your money and you have the right to fight for it. Strength lies in numbers, let`s bring down the scammers!

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[Fuzzy]

I asked for a refund, but I only got 60 BTC and not 193 BTC as I initially sent.

I know it sucks, just imagine what it's like for those who paid when bitcoins were $6, they get 10% of their value back, making a refund not even worth the chance that BFL folds vs delivers.

That operation is such cluster f*** and way past the initial delivery date, it's depressing to see so many people have their hopes dashed, waiting on their hands while bitcoin skyrockets and all they get is delay after delay, with a sprinkling of "tough shit" from BFL, but a lawsuit isn't going to help.

[Chewyy]

I still have hope for them to release ... but this wait is rather ridiculous!

[dardack]

OP is so wrong. (my post has nothing to do with BFL and/or delays/scam.  This is strictly about refund)

Here's what OP wants.

Pays for preorder in BTC at (I believe) $3600.00 back whenever (think in chat he mentioned 193 BTC).  When requested for refund BFL gave him 60 BTC since at current value 60btc=$3600.  Well he wants his 193 BTC back. 

So we ask him what if BTC was lower, then he states he wants his $3600 worth back in BTC.

You can't have it both ways.  You paid $3600 and got refunded $3600.  It's not BFL's fault btc value has changed so much in such a short period.

As to BFL, I have no opinion.  I ordered a jala just for shits and giggles.  Not a serious miner or anything.  Just have 1 gpu at 50% running for the occasional btc for stuff.  I paid for mine in $USD. 

(non BTC example, you buy something from US in Europe over ebay or w/e.  You pay X$ to  be converted into Z euro.  You get item 2 weeks later.  Want refund.  YOu ship back, month has passed.  Person refunds the Euro they received, if exchange rate has changed you may get less or more USD. )

[BillboTor]

I agree you should get your BTC back for what you paid.

However, if it was the other way around (BTC losing a lot of money and you getting the same amount of BTC you paid) you would have created the same post.

My guess is - read the Ts&Cs, it'll say how they refund.

[Chewyy]

I have even asked for refund and they did not hesitate.. soo I ended up keeping the pre-oreder.

[polrpaul]

Please keep me posted on your progress. I am keenly interested in seeing you help light the way for all those sitting on a sore butt.

You people need to listen carefully and act accordingly. For those still debating - please follow suit and request a refund at your earliest convenience so as to minimize your loss.

Mmmmkay? That's all.

[polrpaul]

OP is so wrong. (my post has nothing to do with BFL and/or delays/scam.  This is strictly about refund)

Here's what OP wants.

Pays for preorder in BTC at (I believe) $2600.00 back whenever (think in chat he mentioned 193 BTC).  When requested for refund BFL gave him 60 BTC since at current value 60btc=$2600.  Well he wants his 193 BTC back. 

So we ask him what if BTC was lower, then he states he wants his $2600 worth back in BTC.

You can't have it both ways.  You paid $2600 and got refunded $2600.  It's not BFL's fault btc value has changed so much in such a short period.

As to BFL, I have no opinion.  I ordered a jala just for shits and giggles.  Not a serious miner or anything.  Just have 1 gpu at 50% running for the occasional btc for stuff.  I paid for mine in $USD. 

(non BTC example, you buy something from US in Europe over ebay or w/e.  You pay X$ to  be converted into Z euro.  You get item 2 weeks later.  Want refund.  YOu ship back, month has passed.  Person refunds the Euro they received, if exchange rate has changed you may get less or more USD. )

FTFY - OP purchased 2 Singles @ $2600, not $3600.

What's interesting is that OP was refunded 60 BTC, which today is valued at almost $4500... hmm...

[Nolo]

As long as BFL is giving refunds when asked, you will have a tough time proving your damages in court.  

You could try to argue that you have "consequential or expectancy" (different courts use the terms interchangeably even though they have different meanings), in that if BFL had delivered when they first said they would you would have made more $ because of the lower difficulty.  That argument would likely fail for a dozen reasons though.  

Otherwise you could try to argue that BFL has violated the FTC rules regarding preorders.  But what is that going to get you?  Nominal damages?  (I haven't read the statute to see if the statute defines damages, but I would imagine it doesn't.)  So congratulations.  You just spent tens of thousands of $'s to win $1-$5 in nominal damages.  

So I would wait until you have actually been damaged by BFL before filing suit.  A damage the court would recognize would be if they refused to give you a refund after asking for one.  And this would be easy to prove as well.  

(I didn't completely read OP before posting this)  So after doing so, here's an addendum:

The court is going to laugh you out of the courtroom if you try to argue that you should have received the same amount of BTC in your refund that you sent in.  There are numerous cases dealing with the stock market and currency fluctuations that reject that argument.  You are entitled to the same "value" denominated in USD that you sent in.  You would receive a windfall profit otherwise, and the courts despise giving a plaintiff more than they lost. 

[dardack]

OP is so wrong. (my post has nothing to do with BFL and/or delays/scam.  This is strictly about refund)

Here's what OP wants.

Pays for preorder in BTC at (I believe) $2600.00 back whenever (think in chat he mentioned 193 BTC).  When requested for refund BFL gave him 60 BTC since at current value 60btc=$2600.  Well he wants his 193 BTC back. 

So we ask him what if BTC was lower, then he states he wants his $2600 worth back in BTC.

You can't have it both ways.  You paid $2600 and got refunded $2600.  It's not BFL's fault btc value has changed so much in such a short period.

As to BFL, I have no opinion.  I ordered a jala just for shits and giggles.  Not a serious miner or anything.  Just have 1 gpu at 50% running for the occasional btc for stuff.  I paid for mine in $USD. 

(non BTC example, you buy something from US in Europe over ebay or w/e.  You pay X$ to  be converted into Z euro.  You get item 2 weeks later.  Want refund.  YOu ship back, month has passed.  Person refunds the Euro they received, if exchange rate has changed you may get less or more USD. )

FTFY - OP purchased 2 Singles @ $2600, not $3600.

What's interesting is that OP was refunded 60 BTC, which today is valued at almost $4500... hmm...

Yeah my bad.  Still.  My point stands either way.

[polrpaul]

OP is so wrong. (my post has nothing to do with BFL and/or delays/scam.  This is strictly about refund)

Here's what OP wants.

Pays for preorder in BTC at (I believe) $2600.00 back whenever (think in chat he mentioned 193 BTC).  When requested for refund BFL gave him 60 BTC since at current value 60btc=$2600.  Well he wants his 193 BTC back. 

So we ask him what if BTC was lower, then he states he wants his $2600 worth back in BTC.

You can't have it both ways.  You paid $2600 and got refunded $2600.  It's not BFL's fault btc value has changed so much in such a short period.

As to BFL, I have no opinion.  I ordered a jala just for shits and giggles.  Not a serious miner or anything.  Just have 1 gpu at 50% running for the occasional btc for stuff.  I paid for mine in $USD. 

(non BTC example, you buy something from US in Europe over ebay or w/e.  You pay X$ to  be converted into Z euro.  You get item 2 weeks later.  Want refund.  YOu ship back, month has passed.  Person refunds the Euro they received, if exchange rate has changed you may get less or more USD. )

FTFY - OP purchased 2 Singles @ $2600, not $3600.

What's interesting is that OP was refunded 60 BTC, which today is valued at almost $4500... hmm...

Yeah my bad.  Still.  My point stands either way.

Yep, sure does!  And so does mine: he got 60BTC refund right? that's like $4,500 today.. so he should be well more than good.
By the way, I get paid to say this.

[dardack]

OP is so wrong. (my post has nothing to do with BFL and/or delays/scam.  This is strictly about refund)

Here's what OP wants.

Pays for preorder in BTC at (I believe) $2600.00 back whenever (think in chat he mentioned 193 BTC).  When requested for refund BFL gave him 60 BTC since at current value 60btc=$2600.  Well he wants his 193 BTC back. 

So we ask him what if BTC was lower, then he states he wants his $2600 worth back in BTC.

You can't have it both ways.  You paid $2600 and got refunded $2600.  It's not BFL's fault btc value has changed so much in such a short period.

As to BFL, I have no opinion.  I ordered a jala just for shits and giggles.  Not a serious miner or anything.  Just have 1 gpu at 50% running for the occasional btc for stuff.  I paid for mine in $USD. 

(non BTC example, you buy something from US in Europe over ebay or w/e.  You pay X$ to  be converted into Z euro.  You get item 2 weeks later.  Want refund.  YOu ship back, month has passed.  Person refunds the Euro they received, if exchange rate has changed you may get less or more USD. )

FTFY - OP purchased 2 Singles @ $2600, not $3600.

What's interesting is that OP was refunded 60 BTC, which today is valued at almost $4500... hmm...

Yeah my bad.  Still.  My point stands either way.

Yep, sure does!  And so does mine: he got 60BTC refund right? that's like $4,500 today.. so he should be well more than good.
By the way, I get paid to say this.

How do i get in on that job damn it? (i just heard of BFL in march, and ordered my jala then, just stupid people annoy me).

[polrpaul]

How do i get in on that job damn it? (i just heard of BFL in march, and ordered my jala then, just stupid people annoy me).

Oh you had to order sooner than that to get paid. But if you do a magic dance in the rain with turtles at your feet and flowers in your hands.. who knows!

[dardack]

How do i get in on that job damn it? (i just heard of BFL in march, and ordered my jala then, just stupid people annoy me).

Oh you had to order sooner than that to get paid. But if you do a magic dance in the rain with turtles at your feet and flowers in your hands.. who knows!

Now I just gotta wait for it to rain.

[Melchom]

it's time to pray for BFL to deliver and order an avalon batch 3 

[SgtSpike]

As long as BFL is giving refunds when asked, you will have a tough time proving your damages in court.  

You could try to argue that you have "consequential or expectancy" (different courts use the terms interchangeably even though they have different meanings), in that if BFL had delivered when they first said they would you would have made more $ because of the lower difficulty.  That argument would likely fail for a dozen reasons though.  

Otherwise you could try to argue that BFL has violated the FTC rules regarding preorders.  But what is that going to get you?  Nominal damages?  (I haven't read the statute to see if the statute defines damages, but I would imagine it doesn't.)  So congratulations.  You just spent tens of thousands of $'s to win $1-$5 in nominal damages.  

So I would wait until you have actually been damaged by BFL before filing suit.  A damage the court would recognize would be if they refused to give you a refund after asking for one.  And this would be easy to prove as well.  

(I didn't completely read OP before posting this)  So after doing so, here's an addendum:

The court is going to laugh you out of the courtroom if you try to argue that you should have received the same amount of BTC in your refund that you sent in.  There are numerous cases dealing with the stock market and currency fluctuations that reject that argument.  You are entitled to the same "value" denominated in USD that you sent in.  You would receive a windfall profit otherwise, and the courts despise giving a plaintiff more than they lost. 

Thank you for adding some sensibility to this thread.

[greyhawk]

As long as BFL is giving refunds when asked, you will have a tough time proving your damages in court.  

You could try to argue that you have "consequential or expectancy" (different courts use the terms interchangeably even though they have different meanings), in that if BFL had delivered when they first said they would you would have made more $ because of the lower difficulty.  That argument would likely fail for a dozen reasons though.  

Otherwise you could try to argue that BFL has violated the FTC rules regarding preorders.  But what is that going to get you?  Nominal damages?  (I haven't read the statute to see if the statute defines damages, but I would imagine it doesn't.)  So congratulations.  You just spent tens of thousands of $'s to win $1-$5 in nominal damages.  

So I would wait until you have actually been damaged by BFL before filing suit.  A damage the court would recognize would be if they refused to give you a refund after asking for one.  And this would be easy to prove as well.  

(I didn't completely read OP before posting this)  So after doing so, here's an addendum:

The court is going to laugh you out of the courtroom if you try to argue that you should have received the same amount of BTC in your refund that you sent in.  There are numerous cases dealing with the stock market and currency fluctuations that reject that argument.  You are entitled to the same "value" denominated in USD that you sent in.  You would receive a windfall profit otherwise, and the courts despise giving a plaintiff more than they lost. 

Thank you for adding some sensibility to this thread.

Yes. People, please for once listen to this man. He IS a lawyer. He tells you exactly what any other lawyer would tell you, if you actually spoke to one (which invariably never happens).

[becoin]

What most folks here don`t realize is that BFL DOESN`T NEED TO PRODUCE A VALID PRODUCT, they only need to keep the charade going for as much as possible. THEY ARE MAKING MONEY WITH YOUR MONEY and think that are going to get away with it. They have hired posters, and most likely I will get 3-4 answers from members with 100+ posts saying the "refund in USD" story.

Yep, they have hired posters and at least one of the forum mods as well...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137026.0

[SgtSpike]

On topic:  Please do file a lawsuit.  I would love to laugh at it.

[becoin]

You would receive a windfall profit otherwise, and the courts despise giving a plaintiff more than they lost. 

LOL... How would I receive a windfall profit by paying BTC100 to BFL and getting a refund for BTC100? You must be joking.