[BitFunder] btcQuick - Bitcoin Sales Service

[Deprived]

Why are you using the funds raised here to pay back your BTCJAM loan?

Shouldn't you be able to repay the loan from the BTC you sold?

If he sells the btc, he gets a % fee. He then has to purchase at _least_ that qty to continue to have btc in inventory.
If he had paid off the loan, then he would be back to square one with no inventory, and that would have defeated the purpose.

But if he had paid off the loan, then he wouldn't need to take 300 BTC out of the IPO.

Will the capital from the BTCJAM loan will be part of the company, or is it in the pockets of the owner (on top of the 20% Jerrod currently gets)? I'd expect the former but a clarification would be good.

Now you're being unreasonable.  Next you'll expect companies to list their assets and/or produce accounts before they place themselves for sale.  How would people who have run our of cash to run their business/service their debts be able to sell shares in it if they had to do that?

[1714753526]

1714753526

[1714753526]

1714753526

[usagi]

Why are you using the funds raised here to pay back your BTCJAM loan?

Shouldn't you be able to repay the loan from the BTC you sold?

If he sells the btc, he gets a % fee. He then has to purchase at _least_ that qty to continue to have btc in inventory.
If he had paid off the loan, then he would be back to square one with no inventory, and that would have defeated the purpose.

But if he had paid off the loan, then he wouldn't need to take 300 BTC out of the IPO.

Will the capital from the BTCJAM loan will be part of the company, or is it in the pockets of the owner (on top of the 20% Jerrod currently gets)? I'd expect the former but a clarification would be good.

Now you're being unreasonable.  Next you'll expect companies to list their assets and/or produce accounts before they place themselves for sale.  How would people who have run our of cash to run their business/service their debts be able to sell shares in it if they had to do that?

Please list the assets of LTC-ATF. :p

[ThickAsThieves]

Please list the assets of LTC-ATF. :p

You mean this?  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112876.msg1670011#msg1670011

[Ascension]

The release time for today's 7,500,000 share sale at 0.0001 each will be at 5pm CST.
I will be placing a sell order for 7,500,000 shares at 0.0001. This means that any current bids
at or over 0.0001 will get filled first come, first served.

Thank you again for your interest in btcQuick.

[usagi]

Please list the assets of LTC-ATF. :p

You mean this?  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112876.msg1670011#msg1670011

Yes, disclose the holdings listed there. Although I am just pointing it out for humorous intent, as Deprived is well-known for refusing to list his holdings.

[penta]

interested in buying some shares but i have a few worries.
there seems to be very little transparency, anyway we can keep track of actual profits/sales etc?
or do we just have to trust you, even though we have no name or personal information that i can see?

i guess this would be the same for many of the other shares like asicmining etc hard to know how much they are actually mining.

By 31 March, total BTC to be raised:
Early bird: 500BTC
Second batch: 750 BTC
Third batch: 1125BTC

Total: 2375BTC

Out of which, 300BTC will be used to pay back a loan.
375BTC will go to you - the owner / promoter - for hard work, time and effort.

Total inventory: 1700BTC.
This inventory increases by 1200BTC if you sell forth batch of shares too.

didnt see this answered, how come you need to raise so many btc, and already take 375btc profit yourself
already?

also is my calculation right that with 50million shares the value of btcquick is around 5000btc, or 450k usd?

[tigerfree]

bought some share hope that will be good investment

[Choadzilla]

Did you account easter weekend into your share release schedule lol. What happens if the 2nd batch doesn't sell out by tomorrow?

Anyone thinking about buying shares is reading through this thread, I'm sure you have answers for some of the more accusatory questions, could we hear them? Your silence is only damaging yourself and your shareholders

[ninjaboon]

Ok I bought some shares. Do hope the OP will come in to post more info on his operation methods.

[Ukyo]

didnt see this answered, how come you need to raise so many btc, and already take 375btc profit yourself already?
also is my calculation right that with 50million shares the value of btcquick is around 5000btc, or 450k usd?

If you read the description, all the BTC raised is to:

a. pay off a loan that is in BTC before BTC skyrockets higher and the interest becomes a killer.
b. put the majority BTC into the companies inventory to be able to sell larger volumes of BTC to increase profit to the shareholders.
c. be paid some money for selling part of his ownership of the company.

If you make a company, should you not be allowed to sell shares of it?

No where here does a moving USD value really matter since nothing is being converted to it, or based on it.
Even if you consider his personal profit, it's all based on BTC, based on the businesses BTC profits.
If you do not agree that the shares are not worth X of a moving USD target, then you should base your decision to buy or sell shares on that.
When were your calculations based off of? When BTC had droped to 75btc Thursday night? at 90btc the day before?
at 93btc the price as I type this, or what you estimate btc/usd pricing could be at in 2weeks, or any future point in time?
Sorry if this sounded a bit brash, I just wanted to make my point clear of how I look at it.

Did you account easter weekend into your share release schedule lol. What happens if the 2nd batch doesn't sell out by tomorrow?

Anyone thinking about buying shares is reading through this thread, I'm sure you have answers for some of the more accusatory questions, could we hear them? Your silence is only damaging yourself and your shareholders

I don't think 24hrs of no reply during easter weekend is 'damaging'.
Wait, which questions are not being answered that are ''damaging' btcQuick's reputation?

Any plans to implement ACH or linking bank accounts to BTCQuick? It's the only reason why Coinbase has any customers. Credit/Debit card transactions and linking bank accounts would be amazing.

?

Or someone asking why the owner is choosing to use what might as well be considered personal income to directly pay off the companies debt?
You can say he is selling the first 300btc worth of shares of btcQuick to the public so that he can personally pay off the loan.
You could also say that he is selling off the first 300btc worth of shares to take investment funds into the company, so the company can pay the debt.
Either way it is a moot point of if the company or he himself is paying the companies loan.
The company was originally 100% owned by the issuer. btcQuick the company, owned no shares of itself and never claimed to.

Did I miss a question somewhere in the random discussions? 

[Deprived]

Did I miss a question somewhere in the random discussions? 

Think only actual question you missed was:

WIll the remaining capital from the BTCjam loan be in the company's wallet or is the issuer taking all funds already in the wallet himself?

TradeFortress asked it.

Asking what assets a company that is IPOing has isn't an unreasonable question.

[penta]

No where here does a moving USD value really matter since nothing is being converted to it, or based on it.
Even if you consider his personal profit, it's all based on BTC, based on the businesses BTC profits.
If you do not agree that the shares are not worth X of a moving USD target, then you should base your decision to buy or sell shares on that.
When were your calculations based off of? When BTC had droped to 75btc Thursday night? at 90btc the day before?
at 93btc the price as I type this, or what you estimate btc/usd pricing could be at in 2weeks, or any future point in time?
Sorry if this sounded a bit brash, I just wanted to make my point clear of how I look at it.

not harsh at all, thanks for trying to make it more clear. my calc was just a rough 50mill * 0.0001 * 90usd.
i anoticed he listed profits in usd?

[Deprived]

No where here does a moving USD value really matter since nothing is being converted to it, or based on it.
Even if you consider his personal profit, it's all based on BTC, based on the businesses BTC profits.
If you do not agree that the shares are not worth X of a moving USD target, then you should base your decision to buy or sell shares on that.
When were your calculations based off of? When BTC had droped to 75btc Thursday night? at 90btc the day before?
at 93btc the price as I type this, or what you estimate btc/usd pricing could be at in 2weeks, or any future point in time?
Sorry if this sounded a bit brash, I just wanted to make my point clear of how I look at it.

not harsh at all, thanks for trying to make it more clear. my calc was just a rough 50mill * 0.0001 * 90usd.
i anoticed he listed profits in usd?

How capital is held (i.e. in which currency/ies) is a key part of determining valuation.  This isn't stated - only implied as being USD by results being given in USD (with BTC only estimated).  Now Ukyo appears to be saying capital is held as BTC.

How capital is held is important in at least 2 respects:

1.  It determines how the assets/book value of the company changes when exchange-rate moves (which of BTC/USD valuations is the one that changes?  It could be both if by default balanced holdings are held.).
2.  Trade volume is constrained to an extent by capital (received USD can't instantly be converted into BTC).  The upper-bound of that volume is set in the currency capital is, by default, held in.  If held as USD when idle then a rise in BTC means max volume (in BTC) falls.   Vice-versa if held in BTC.

Would be nice if issuer could confirm Ukyo's statement that BTC value doesn't change - i.e. all idle funds are held in BTC.

THis would also clarify Ukyo's statement that all profits are in BTC - which is clearly only true if no/limited USD are held.  If X% profit is made on a trade then whether that profit is in BTC or in USD depends entirely on whether the profit is left in USD or converted to BTC immediately.

Put simply:

If exchange rate is $100=B1 and company makes 5 BTC profit.
Then exchange-rate rises to $250=B1.
Does the company still have 5 BTC (and a LOT of $) more than before the trade or $500 more (and a LOT less BTC in total)?

Obviously if BTC fell then the figures would be reversed (holding USD would be better).  Issue isn't so much which is right/wrong - but which is the currency investors need to value this in?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

No where here does a moving USD value really matter since nothing is being converted to it, or based on it.
Even if you consider his personal profit, it's all based on BTC, based on the businesses BTC profits.
If you do not agree that the shares are not worth X of a moving USD target, then you should base your decision to buy or sell shares on that.
When were your calculations based off of? When BTC had droped to 75btc Thursday night? at 90btc the day before?
at 93btc the price as I type this, or what you estimate btc/usd pricing could be at in 2weeks, or any future point in time?
Sorry if this sounded a bit brash, I just wanted to make my point clear of how I look at it.

not harsh at all, thanks for trying to make it more clear. my calc was just a rough 50mill * 0.0001 * 90usd.
i anoticed he listed profits in usd?

How capital is held (i.e. in which currency/ies) is a key part of determining valuation.  This isn't stated - only implied as being USD by results being given in USD (with BTC only estimated).  Now Ukyo appears to be saying capital is held as BTC.

How capital is held is important in at least 2 respects:

1.  It determines how the assets/book value of the company changes when exchange-rate moves (which of BTC/USD valuations is the one that changes?  It could be both if by default balanced holdings are held.).
2.  Trade volume is constrained to an extent by capital (received USD can't instantly be converted into BTC).  The upper-bound of that volume is set in the currency capital is, by default, held in.  If held as USD when idle then a rise in BTC means max volume (in BTC) falls.   Vice-versa if held in BTC.

Would be nice if issuer could confirm Ukyo's statement that BTC value doesn't change - i.e. all idle funds are held in BTC.

THis would also clarify Ukyo's statement that all profits are in BTC - which is clearly only true if no/limited USD are held.  If X% profit is made on a trade then whether that profit is in BTC or in USD depends entirely on whether the profit is left in USD or converted to BTC immediately.

Put simply:

If exchange rate is $100=B1 and company makes 5 BTC profit.
Then exchange-rate rises to $250=B1.
Does the company still have 5 BTC (and a LOT of $) more than before the trade or $500 more (and a LOT less BTC in total)?

Obviously if BTC fell then the figures would be reversed (holding USD would be better).  Issue isn't so much which is right/wrong - but which is the currency investors need to value this in?

Considering that this is listed on a bitcoin stock exchange, you'd expect them to hold funds in BTC.

[Deprived]

No where here does a moving USD value really matter since nothing is being converted to it, or based on it.
Even if you consider his personal profit, it's all based on BTC, based on the businesses BTC profits.
If you do not agree that the shares are not worth X of a moving USD target, then you should base your decision to buy or sell shares on that.
When were your calculations based off of? When BTC had droped to 75btc Thursday night? at 90btc the day before?
at 93btc the price as I type this, or what you estimate btc/usd pricing could be at in 2weeks, or any future point in time?
Sorry if this sounded a bit brash, I just wanted to make my point clear of how I look at it.

not harsh at all, thanks for trying to make it more clear. my calc was just a rough 50mill * 0.0001 * 90usd.
i anoticed he listed profits in usd?

How capital is held (i.e. in which currency/ies) is a key part of determining valuation.  This isn't stated - only implied as being USD by results being given in USD (with BTC only estimated).  Now Ukyo appears to be saying capital is held as BTC.

How capital is held is important in at least 2 respects:

1.  It determines how the assets/book value of the company changes when exchange-rate moves (which of BTC/USD valuations is the one that changes?  It could be both if by default balanced holdings are held.).
2.  Trade volume is constrained to an extent by capital (received USD can't instantly be converted into BTC).  The upper-bound of that volume is set in the currency capital is, by default, held in.  If held as USD when idle then a rise in BTC means max volume (in BTC) falls.   Vice-versa if held in BTC.

Would be nice if issuer could confirm Ukyo's statement that BTC value doesn't change - i.e. all idle funds are held in BTC.

THis would also clarify Ukyo's statement that all profits are in BTC - which is clearly only true if no/limited USD are held.  If X% profit is made on a trade then whether that profit is in BTC or in USD depends entirely on whether the profit is left in USD or converted to BTC immediately.

Put simply:

If exchange rate is $100=B1 and company makes 5 BTC profit.
Then exchange-rate rises to $250=B1.
Does the company still have 5 BTC (and a LOT of $) more than before the trade or $500 more (and a LOT less BTC in total)?

Obviously if BTC fell then the figures would be reversed (holding USD would be better).  Issue isn't so much which is right/wrong - but which is the currency investors need to value this in?

Considering that this is listed on a bitcoin stock exchange, you'd expect them to hold funds in BTC.

Youd be surprised how many "Bitcoin" businesses hold reserves in USD.  And probably less surprised at how many of them then run into problems because of it (especially when coupled with BTC-denominated debt).  As well as the ones with problems on Bitfunder (Ziggap/Bakewell being the obvious but not only two) there's ones on LTC-GLobal with similar currency-related issues (either unable to sell shares because of LTC's rising price and/or unable to fulfil obligations and/or 'borrowed' funds for fiat-related purposes which are now very hard to return).  It's not a problem limited to only one exchange.

I'd guess part of the (totally invalid/incorrect) reason some hold reserves in USD is a flawed belief that by doing so they avoid exchange-rate risks.  Others may do it simply because it makes life easier when producing accounts for tax etc.  I've yet to see a company that functioned in USD but sold shares in BTC where investors over any length of time ended up better off than if they'd just kept their BTC.

[Choadzilla]

There's supposed to be another offering some time today: silence=damaging

particularly when 3million unsold shares at a previous price have been unfilled

which brings me back to my original question

[Ascension]

1. Will the remaining capital from the BTCjam loan be in the company's wallet or is the issuer taking all funds already in the wallet himself?
A wallet holdings of about 200 BTC at the time of IPO remains in the companies' stocks in additional to the new stock from investments.

When the March statement is posted, it will include the exact starting and end BTC holdings amount as I do not have that on hand at this moment.

You are probably wondering why there is only about 200 BTC instead of at least the 300 BTC from the btcJam loan.
The process of repurchasing coins has been a manual one. There were a few occurrences of large price spikes between the
time of coin sales and repurchase. Our new site has an automated system to purchase replacement BTC as they are sold to
remedy this problem.

2. Would be nice if issuer could confirm Ukyo's statement that BTC value doesn't change - i.e. all idle funds are held in BTC.
Yes, as funds are made available to us by the processor (currently Google), they are transfered into the exchange of choice where we
maintain our USD holdings. Increasing USD holdings at the exchange relative to BTC pricing allows us and our automated system to have the funds needed to instantly repurchase coins at a proper price when sold.

btcQuick's intention are to not maintain a USD balance except for the use of purchasing BTC as stock to avoid losses due to change of price during client payment transfers. Without this USD holding, like mentioned beforehand, btcQuick could suffer losses of stock quantities due to price changes.

3. Third batch offering?
The 3rd batch of shares has been delayed until the issuer feels there is a market demand.
Any remaining shares of the second batch will also be taken down at or around the time of the March statement on or within a few days of Monday, April 1st 2013.

[Deprived]

2. Would be nice if issuer could confirm Ukyo's statement that BTC value doesn't change - i.e. all idle funds are held in BTC.
Yes, as funds are made available to us by the processor (currently Google), they are transfered into the exchange of choice where we
maintain our USD holdings. Increasing USD holdings at the exchange relative to BTC pricing allows us and our automated system to have the funds needed to instantly repurchase coins at a proper price when sold.

btcQuick's intention are to not maintain a USD balance except for the use of purchasing BTC as stock to avoid losses due to change of price during client payment transfers. Without this USD holding, like mentioned beforehand, btcQuick could suffer losses of stock quantities due to price changes.

Thanks for the answer.

The problem is that it doesn't address the fundamental problem that sellers of BTC face.  Which is that any holdings in USD are going to lose value any time BTC rises - and you can't avoid having holdings in USD because when someone busy from you, you don't get the USD immediately to exchange back.  What you're doing may, on the surface, appear to solve the problem - but in fact it just moves it AND amplifies it.

Let's forget, for a second, about your BTC reserves - they keep the same (BTC) value no matter what happens.  And let's look at what happens when BTC gos on a rise (which is the time you'll get most buyers).

Say the rate is 1 BTC = 100 USD
And you have 5k USD ready to replace purchases.

Someone buys 10 BTC (for 1k USD + markup).

You now buy 10 BTC and have made a profit of the markup.

You now have 4k USD left and 1k USD pending with Google.

Now BTC rises to 110 USD.

Whilst you replaced the BTC at same price you IMMEDIATELY take a loss on the whole 5k USD you're holding (expressed in BTC).  That is actually a BIGGER hit than if you'd held 0 USD and not been replacing BTC until the funds arrived from Google.

It's actually NOT possible to maintain a fixed BTC value of assets if you hold ANY significant assets in USD - any float you hold to buy replacement BTC with is immediately making the BTC valuation of assets move as the exchange-rate moves.  And you face a second dilemma if you try to do this as well.  If you hold most of assets as BTC and only a minority as USD then what do you do if you have a bunch of orders and run out of (immediately usable) USD to replace BTC?  Do you stop selling?  If so, then ALL BTC you hold over your target USD value to hold are completely unused (as you can't ever replace them as USD reserves will exhaust before they're reached).  The only purpose they serve is to allow maintenance of same trade volume (in USD) if BTC price falls.  But, of course, if BTC price falls then having held a ton of BTC in case it happened isn't exactly something to congratulate yourself on.

This seems to be a structural issue with a lot of BTC-selling vendors.  If BTC rises then you can happily trade away making a profit on every trade - but then when you come to do accounts you'll find you've actually made a loss (in BTC) due to your USD reserves driving value down.

There's two fundamental ways to address it:

1.  Be a USD-valued company.  You'd then hold only USD, buying BTC and shipping them based on orders.  Value would be stable and profits actual - but only measured in USD.
2.  Be a BTC-valued company.  You'd never hold any USD for any longer than necessary - zero USD floats of any kind.  They key then is to set the correct markup on sales.  That's comprised of 3 elements:
a)  The profit you want
b)  The costs of doing business
c)  A margin to cover the average expected rise of BTC during the period you're FORCED to hold USD between a sale and being able to purchase BTC with the received payment.

c) Is what is routinely being ignored and/or underestimated.  If it takes 2 days from the time a customer buys BTC until the time you manage to buy BTC with those USD then you have to markup by the average you expect BTC to rise in those 2 days.  It's my view that a lot of companies are just ignoring this and acting as though the BTC/USD exchange-rate can be treated long-term as being essentially random so that no markup is necessary.  That's pretty clearly untrue.  If BTC succeeds in gaining use then it HAS to rise long-term - and that MUST be priced in.

The impact of ignoring that is NOT trivial.  If your reserves are the correct size then at any given time a significant part of them WILL be in USD.  Holding an extra USD float just makes the situation worse in 2 ways:

1.  It increases the change in BTC valuation of your assets caused by exchange-rate movement.
2.  If strictly adhered to it artifically restricts your ability to actually trade.

The question then becomes what is the markup to apply for c)?  Answer to that depends very much on how long it takes you to convert received USD into BTC.  If it's only hours then not too much.  If days then quite a lot.  And your value will STILL only be likely to be stable in the long-term : in the short-term there's absolutely nothing you can do to prevent it short of not using the majority of capital (when absolute losses remain identical - just appear less when expressed as a percentage).  The slow nature of converting USD payments to BTC is what causes the problem - until a way around that is found I'm not seeing how selling BTC can be profitable in a rising-BTC environment at the sort of pretty small markups you (and others) charge.  You make profits on transactions but a loss overall (when expressed in BTC) and so would probably be better off running completely in USD so at least investors consciously chose to short BTC by investing.

[Ascension]

I hope to have the P&L posted tomorrow.


Thanks,
-Ascension

[Ascension]

btcJam Loan has been repaid - https://btcjam.com/listings/2143

Thanks,
-Ascension