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Author Topic: Intervention Theory: An alternative to Darwinism and Creationism  (Read 9423 times)
BADecker
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September 30, 2016, 09:56:52 AM
 #61

the very nature of things shows a gradual breaking down of complexity.

I would argue that this statement is false.  

We would be wise to consider entropy from the perspective of information theory.
This approach likely takes us closest to what entropy actually is rather then simple physical manifestations of it.  
According to information theory entropy is a measure of unpredictability of information content.  

see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(information_theory)

How does this apply to life and a gradual breaking down of complexity? Here is a nice post from Anonymint where he analyzes this.

If we consider each lifeform in isolation, then a lifeform appears to be dissipative because energy is input and order is increased in the form of aggregating chemical structures (which comprise the body of that lifeform) that comprise higher energy states than their decompositions.

But that doesn't describe life (as distinct from lifeform) at all. These highly ordered lifeforms are interacting to create the much higher information system of evolution. Each lifeform alone is insignificant to anything on any significant scale, yet evolution has given human society the information content to travel across the solar system in outer space. No single lifeform could have attained that entropy/capability (read on...).

Entropy is not some vague concept. It has a precise mathematical definition which is the sum of the logarithmic relation of the number and probability of the possible configurations (a.k.a. states) in the system, i.e. it is measure of the granularity and uniformness of possibilities in the system, i.e. the availability to fitness (to receive work) of the system.  Mankind could not have achieved such amazing feats without a much larger scope of capability states and more distributed probabilities within that scope. In other words, if all lifeforms were capable of doing only one thing, mankind can't accomplish many things. If lifeforms can't interact to form higher information content, then their input to evolution can be lost and the information content decreases.

If you only focus on the biological lifeforms, you miss the entropic force. Biological lifeforms considered only physically and in isolation from the network effects (and memory of evolution) is just a zero sum game if without the entropic relationship. It is akin to focusing only on the actors of the system and treating the interaction of lifeforms (not in the physical but in the informational and evolutionary memory perspective) here on earth as a closed thermodynamic system.Thermodynamics tells us that entropy depends not only on the net flow of energy but also the work dissipated external to the system. The information content of evolution is orthogonal to the physical work done on earth, so all the energy being input is also being dissipated out of the open information system of evolution.

Considering only lifeforms is as silly as saying the entropy of a software program doesn't increase as its Kolmogorov complexity increases. it is irrelevant that the physical manifestation of that knowledge is highly ordered in the physical world where it is stored or represented. The information content has increased. Any one claims there isn't an interaction between that information content and the real physical world is loony and denies the obvious.

Edit: what is interesting to me is how information content increases as the physical thermodynamics becomes more and more indirectly coupled to the system of the information content. One typically thinks of entropy as decay or decomposition but this process is coincident with an increase in information capacity as the potential number of independent states is greater the less mass/inertia is involved. Again if Professor Stolfi only wants to count atoms, then there is nothing for us to talk about. To argue that the information content of software or evolution doesn't interact with the physical realm doesn't make any sense to me. To argue that information content is bounded by atoms of the lifeforms doesn't make any sense as well, and probably if I take some time to formalize it I will be able to. Heading this direction will likely lead to some unifying discoveries in Physics such as the recent discovery that gravity can be shown mathematically to emerge from the entropic force.

Imagine if life was perfect and without chance. Life would be deterministic and could be modeled with an algorithm, then failure couldn't exist, everything would be known in advance, and thus there could be no change that wasn't predictable, i.e. real change wouldn't exist and the universe would be static. Life requires imperfection and unbounded diversity, else life doesn't exist and isn't alive. Equality and perfection are the ambition of the insane who probably don't realize they must destroy life to reach their goal.

Thus the theory that it would be impossible to predict what computers would contemplate is nonsense because the input entropy of the models of the brain will always be finite and deterministic from the time the input entropy is varied.

Pseudo-random number generators are deterministic from the time the seed is changed. Even dynamically capturing entropy from the changing content of the internet would be deterministic from each moment of capture to the next, and the model of capture would be lacking diversity and static (only modified by a human).

The 160 IQ genius Microsoft founder Paul Allen refers to this as “specialized knowledge” in The Complexity Brake, yet he thinks the brain is finite because he apparently didn't consider that every finite human brain is unique; thus systemic creative thought possesses dynamic unbounded entropy.

Ray Kurzweil responded that the human genome (DNA) has a finite information content, and claimed that humans possess a canonical brain which is differentiated by what is learned from the environment during each human lifetime.

Since the portion of the human genome pertaining to the brain has an entropy in the millions or billions, each human brain is potentially at least one-in-a-million or one-in-a-billion unique. Notwithstanding that uniqueness, if human evolution was entirely encoded in a finite genome, then it would be mathematically possible for a plurality of humans to have identical brains at some point in time as the brain forms before differentiation from non-identical learning environments. However, the brain is learning and exposed to the environment as it is forming in the womb, thus there is never a point in time where the brain was entirely structured from only the information in the DNA.

Thus evolution is not just an encoding from the environment to the genome, rather a continuous interaction between the ongoing environment and the genome. Thus for computers to obtain the same entropy of the collective human brainpower, they would need to be human reproducing, contributing to genome and interacting with the environment in the ways humans do. Even if computers could do this, the technological singularity would not occur, because the computers would be equivalent to adding more humans to the population.

The implication is that the creativity of humankind is enhanced as the human population grows. And culling the population to increase average IQ would reduce human creativity. Resilient systems don't have low entropy.

Claude Shannon showed us that the capacity for information content is equivalent to the entropy of a system. As elucidated above, the entropy of our universe is inseparable from life, thus information is alive.

Intertwined throughout the thinking of the author(s) of the Wikipedia article, and other authors listed above, is the idea of evolution. You don't need me to do an Internet search on probability math regarding evolution. Even if evolution probability, were possible probability math-wise, it wouldn't be as probable as abiogenesis.

If we are going to go the evolution route for helping to prove Intervention Theory, we have a long way to go. We need to prove evolution even viable enough to be a theory itself. The Theory of Evolution is way too implausible to even be a theory.

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October 02, 2016, 03:50:31 AM
 #62

Intertwined throughout the thinking of the author(s) of the Wikipedia article, and other authors listed above, is the idea of evolution. You don't need me to do an Internet search on probability math regarding evolution. Even if evolution probability, were possible probability math-wise, it wouldn't be as probable as abiogenesis.

Probability of what? That we arrived here as we are now due to evolutionary advance?

I (and I am AnonyMint) think that is entirely the wrong way to look at it. We could simply be one of the innumerable (quadrillions or higher) of variants of outcomes that exist in the universe. It doesn't require any probable advance from tadpoles to monkeys to learning to use our thumbs and stand up, rather it is just is.

Complexity is increasing because the number of variants in the universe is always increasing. That doesn't mean the probability of a subsequent variant is increasing, because the Verlinde entropic force is greater for matter that is in "proximity" (meaning more generally I think resonant and this is a direction I want to go with future research and thought but no time right now). Thus from any relative perspective, the probability of perceiving any specific variant is decreasing, while the complexity of variants which exist but are only omnisciently perceived, is increasing. So afaics "evolution" and omniscient creation would not be incongruent.

The key is unifying relativism together with the concept of entropy. I think this is the missing link that the researchers need to pursue. It is not enough to say the entropy has increased, if it isn't qualified relative to what. Then we end up with infinite recursion (two mirrors facing each other), which is a more accurate model of a universe that has no perception of its bound (in time, space, etc).
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October 02, 2016, 04:22:00 AM
 #63

Intertwined throughout the thinking of the author(s) of the Wikipedia article, and other authors listed above, is the idea of evolution. You don't need me to do an Internet search on probability math regarding evolution. Even if evolution probability, were possible probability math-wise, it wouldn't be as probable as abiogenesis.

Probability of what? That we arrived here as we are now due to evolutionary advance?

I (and I am AnonyMint) think that is entirely the wrong way to look at it. We could simply be one of the innumerable (quadrillions or higher) of variants of outcomes that exist in the universe. It doesn't require any probable advance from tadpoles to monkeys to learning to use our thumbs and stand up, rather it is just is.

Complexity is increasing because the number of variants in the universe is always increasing. That doesn't mean the probability of a subsequent variant is increasing, because the Verlinde entropic force is greater for matter that is in "proximity" (meaning more generally I think resonant and this is a direction I want to go with future research and thought but no time right now). Thus from any relative perspective, the probability of perceiving any specific variant is decreasing, while the complexity of variants which exist but are only omnisciently perceived, is increasing. So afaics "evolution" and omniscient creation would not be incongruent.

The key is unifying relativism together with the concept of entropy. I think this is the missing link that the researchers need to pursue. It is not enough to say the entropy has increased, if it isn't qualified relative to what. Then we end up with infinite recursion (two mirrors facing each other), which is a more accurate model of a universe that has no perception of its bound (in time, space, etc).

One little problem with all of what you say here. There is no proof of any of it, and the little of it that looks plausible, can be explained in many other ways at the same time.

The probability that the building blocks of life could ever come together in such a way as to form life is so small that it is essentially impossible. The probability that living-life could change, without change-programming being built into it, is even smaller.

Cause and effect is so extremely abundant in everything that we see, and nothing that we see can be factually explained any other way, that it shows that the universe and life was programmed.

In its basic form, entropy is reduction of complexity. This is slowly happening to everything around us. Because life is as complex as it is, entropy works faster with life than it does with other things. The result is death, and then further reduction of complexity through decomposition.

Perhaps we don't like this. But it is abundantly factual all around us. The things you say are not factual.

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indijim
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October 02, 2016, 07:46:14 AM
 #64

There is no "Creation Theory." Creationism is not a theory at all. It is a religiously based assertion with no basis in fact.

Theories come from people who make theories. There are loads of potential theories that simply haven't been made yet, some of which will never be made, simply because nobody makes them.

The fact that creation existed is shown by entropy theory, and the fact that high complexity exists. If there were no creation... if everything had always existed... entropy would have reduced complexity in the universe to a blob of super simplicity long ago.

Cool
Theories come from careful observations and known facts. People just don't nilly willy make theories.
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October 02, 2016, 01:35:14 PM
 #65

There is no "Creation Theory." Creationism is not a theory at all. It is a religiously based assertion with no basis in fact.

Theories come from people who make theories. There are loads of potential theories that simply haven't been made yet, some of which will never be made, simply because nobody makes them.

The fact that creation existed is shown by entropy theory, and the fact that high complexity exists. If there were no creation... if everything had always existed... entropy would have reduced complexity in the universe to a blob of super simplicity long ago.

Cool
Theories come from careful observations and known facts. People just don't nilly willy make theories.

What you say is the way that it is suppose to work. But what is behind the theory making? Isn't it the desire to lay down a base of examination, to find facts in a certain area, the area of the theory? This means that the person who makes the theory is often clouded by his own desires to find a theory that fits the things that he wants them to fit. Because of this, he often ignores a whole lot of things that would make the theory to be ridiculous if he had considered them.

The example? Science would become a whole lot more logical and accurate if scientists who make theories would do two simple, little things:
1. In all their theory making, take into account that cause and effect is a law of the universe, upheld by Newton's 3rd LAW, and recognize the significance of it;
2. Recognize the fact that probability math negates the possibility of evolution.

Want two examples of science theory that should not fall into the realm of theory at all, because they don't fit the theory process? Big Bang Theory and Black Hole Theory. Neither of these theories should be theories because neither will ever be able to be proven to be fact or not. Yet they are very popular theories... so popular that thousands of people believe them even though they can never be proven to be true or false. When people believe something that can never be proven, they have a religion for themselves. Religion is what science has become, but it was never meant to be that way.

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October 04, 2016, 08:23:27 AM
 #66

There is no "Creation Theory." Creationism is not a theory at all. It is a religiously based assertion with no basis in fact.

Theories come from people who make theories. There are loads of potential theories that simply haven't been made yet, some of which will never be made, simply because nobody makes them.

The fact that creation existed is shown by entropy theory, and the fact that high complexity exists. If there were no creation... if everything had always existed... entropy would have reduced complexity in the universe to a blob of super simplicity long ago.

Cool
Theories come from careful observations and known facts. People just don't nilly willy make theories.

What you say is the way that it is suppose to work. But what is behind the theory making? Isn't it the desire to lay down a base of examination, to find facts in a certain area, the area of the theory? This means that the person who makes the theory is often clouded by his own desires to find a theory that fits the things that he wants them to fit. Because of this, he often ignores a whole lot of things that would make the theory to be ridiculous if he had considered them.

The example? Science would become a whole lot more logical and accurate if scientists who make theories would do two simple, little things:
1. In all their theory making, take into account that cause and effect is a law of the universe, upheld by Newton's 3rd LAW, and recognize the significance of it;
2. Recognize the fact that probability math negates the possibility of evolution.

Want two examples of science theory that should not fall into the realm of theory at all, because they don't fit the theory process? Big Bang Theory and Black Hole Theory. Neither of these theories should be theories because neither will ever be able to be proven to be fact or not. Yet they are very popular theories... so popular that thousands of people believe them even though they can never be proven to be true or false. When people believe something that can never be proven, they have a religion for themselves. Religion is what science has become, but it was never meant to be that way.

Cool

Both science and religion are first and foremost based on beliefs/theories that cannot be proven at first.

And both share a certain amount of truth within those bodies of data.

To think that life originated from matter just by itself is as idiotic as anything can be.

Life is sparked and driven by the desire to survive something that no rock will ever have.

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October 06, 2016, 06:00:34 AM
 #67

Some interesting reading I came across today.

World War II Foo Fighters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foo_fighter#Sightings

Quote
The first sightings occurred in November 1944, when pilots flying over Germany by night reported seeing fast-moving round glowing objects following their aircraft. The objects were variously described as fiery, and glowing red, white, or orange. Some pilots described them as resembling Christmas tree lights and reported that they seemed to toy with the aircraft, making wild turns before simply vanishing. Pilots and aircrew reported that the objects flew formation with their aircraft and behaved as if under intelligent control, but never displayed hostile behavior. However, they could not be outmaneuvered or shot down. The phenomenon was so widespread that the lights earned a name – in the European Theater of Operations they were often called "kraut fireballs" but for the most part called "foo-fighters". The military took the sightings seriously, suspecting that the mysterious sightings might be secret German weapons, but further investigation revealed that German and Japanese pilots had reported similar sightings

A video that describes these world war 2 sightings objectively.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BqLB72wtgc

Was this mass hallucination by tired pilots or something else? Not enough evidence to say.
I find it interesting, however, that these reports seem to have not started until around 1944. World war II was nearing its end at that time with the defeat of the axis powers inevitable. There was, however, a new technology that had just come online.

The X-10 Graphite Reactor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-10_Graphite_Reactor
Quote
The X-10 Graphite Reactor was the first reactor designed and built for continuous operation. It was built during World War II as part of the Manhattan Project... The reactor went critical on November 4, 1943, and produced its first plutonium in early 1944. It supplied the Los Alamos Laboratory with its first significant amounts of plutonium, and its first reactor-bred product. Studies of these samples heavily influenced bomb design.

To any hypothetical entity advanced enough to be hanging out in near earth at the time starting the X-10 Graphite Reactor would likely be akin to setting off a signal flare.

Detection of (Nuclear) Reactors by their Gamma-ray and Positron Emissions
http://scienceandglobalsecurity.org/archive/sgs01primackA.pdf

Quote from:  Joel R. Primack
A ban on nuclear reactors in orbit could be verified using the tremendous flux of gamma rays and positrons that such reactors emit when operating. Indeed, these radiations already constitute a significant background for orbiting gamma-ray
astronomical satellites.

In this paper, we estimate the gamma-ray flux from reactors on spacecraft, using the design parameters for the US SP-100 space reactor as an example. We then summarize the sensitivities of several existing and planned gamma-ray detectors.

Finally, one last interesting data point to consider.

Green fireballs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_fireballs#Early_green_fireballs
Quote
Green fireballs are a type of unidentified flying object which have been sighted in the sky since the late 1940s.[1] Early sightings primarily occurred in the southwestern United States, particularly in New Mexico.[2][3][4] They were once of notable concern to the US government because they were often clustered around sensitive research and military installations, such as Los Alamos and Sandia National Laboratory, then Sandia base.

Meteor expert Dr. Lincoln LaPaz headed much of the investigation into the fireballs on behalf of the military. LaPaz's conclusion was that the objects displayed too many anomalous characteristics to be a type of meteor and instead were artificial, perhaps secret Russian spy devices... The green fireballs were seen by many people of high repute including LaPaz, distinguished Los Alamos scientists, Kirtland AFB intelligence officers and Air Command Defense personnel.[5] ...

Perhaps the most graphic example occurred during the "Buster series" of atomic tests on November 1 and 5, 1951, which were accompanied by so many reported green fireball sightings in states affected by fallout, that even the New York Times carried a story on November 9, "Southwest's 7 Fireballs in 11 Days Called 'Without Parallel in History'." Dr. LaPaz was widely quoted saying, "There has never been a rate of meteorite fall in history that has been one-fifth as high as the present fall. If that rate should continue, I would suspect the phenomenon is not natural... [they] don't behave like ordinary meteorites at all."

Initially the green fireballs were reported in Arizona and New Mexico as the fallout clouds left Nevada, but as the clouds spread out and drifted further east, south, and north, green fireball sightings then followed in Texas, northern Mexico, Iowa, Kansas, Indiana, Michigan, and New York. Portions of the fallout also drifted west into the Los Angeles area on November 7, followed the next day by a green fireball sighting there...

Summarizing the rash of fireball sightings in November 1951, Wilson commented, "Some researchers imply that the radioactivity itself was producing the green fireballs, possibly as an electrostatic effect.

Wilson concluded, "We can make one statement of fact: the fireball sightings—green or otherwise—occurred in areas that received radioactive debris from Operation Buster. Was this just coincidence, or a planned occurrence? We simply don't know, so all we can do is to continue to collect data and see if some overwhelmingly convincing pattern emerges." Wilson nonetheless felt the evidence pointed to the fireballs being real, artificial, and those responsible having some sort of agenda."

Again no proof here, but probably enough to justify keeping an open mind regarding various possible causes. Perhaps world war 2 pilot's where simply prone to seeing similar types of hallucinations. Perhaps the green fireballs are the result of some type of atmospheric phenomena that we still do not really understand today or of unprecedented meteor shower. Nevertheless, alternative theories cannot be entirely dismissed here.

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October 06, 2016, 06:23:49 PM
Last edit: October 06, 2016, 06:57:08 PM by qwik2learn
 #68

Perhaps world war 2 pilot's where simply prone to seeing similar types of hallucinations.

Perhaps this simple and evidence-free assertion would also be able to explain away shared "hallucinations" like the Rendlesham Forest incident (also known as "Britain's Roswell"), and those incidents involving numerous civilian witnesses, like the Phoenix Lights. Just kidding! I think there are only two plausible explanations, as mentioned here:

UFO believers say it's no coincidence that aliens showed up very shortly after we'd developed atomic weapons and rocket technology, as this is when they were alerted to the threat we pose to the wider cosmos.
'Ironically, governments have sometimes secretly promoted belief in UFOs, because if someone sees a secret prototype aircraft or drone, it's much better to have it reported as a flying saucer than recognised for what it is,' said Pope.
'None of this is to say that there haven't been some genuinely fascinating and unexplained UFO sightings around nuclear facilities and military bases, but just because a UFO sighting is unexplained, it doesn't follow that it's extraterrestrial.'

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December 17, 2016, 08:42:10 PM
Last edit: May 16, 2017, 09:14:27 PM by CoinCube
 #69

Intervention Theory
Did a Higher Power Defeat the Nazis?

Quote from: Wikipedia
Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and Social Darwinism, identifying Germans as part of what Nazis regarded as an Aryan or Nordic master race. It aimed to overcome social divisions and create a homogeneous society, unified on the basis of "racial purity" (Volksgemeinschaft). The Nazis aimed to unite all Germans living in historically German territory, as well as gain additional lands for German expansion under the doctrine of Lebensraum, while excluding those deemed either to be community aliens or belonging to an "inferior" race.

The utter defeat of Nazis is something of a historical oddity. The Nazi’s were the 20th century’s equivalent of the Mongols or the Huns. They were motivated, technologically advanced, disciplined, and man for man outclassed their rivals of the time. This advantage was seen in their multiple strategic triumphs. Until the fall of 1941 they went from victory to victory always one step ahead of their opponents. They conquered almost all of continental Europe and Norway quickly and decisively.

Hitler believed that the Soviet Union would rapidly collapse in the face of sustained attack and initially it appeared his assessment was entirely correct. In the first few months of the German attack the Germans captured millions of soviet prisoners. In the fall of 1941 German’s encircled destroyed the bulk of the armies guarding the approach to Moscow capturing over 500,000 prisoners. For a brief window the Soviets had only 90,000 men and 150 tanks left to defend Moscow.



Yet the Nazi’s did not capture Moscow they were repulsed and ultimately crushed. Three historical quirks of fate led to this defeat:

1)   Extreme and unusual weather that started in October 1941.
2)   Odd Nazi’s error in August 1941 that compromised secret German communications.
3)   Historical oddities in August of 1941 that led directly to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

All three of these oddities played a role in the defeating the Nazi regime and all three involved an unusual element of chance or circumstance. Let’s examine each of these.

A)  Extreme and unusual weather
Unusual Fall Rains:
Following the defeat of the armies guarding Moscow in October situation was dire for the Soviets. General Georgi Zhukov the soviet commander said the following.

“The defensive front in the west has been destroyed a huge gap has appeared in our lines and there is nothing to fill it as there are no reserves. The roads leading to Moscow are open.”

The Nazi’s were confident of victory. German Army Chief-of-staff, Franz Halder, wrote in his diary, “To save Moscow the enemy will try to bring up reinforcements, especially from the North.  But any such miscellaneous force, scraped together in an emergency, will not suffice against our superior strength, and provided our strategy is any good at all (provided the weather is not too bad), we shall succeed in divesting Moscow.”

https://www.tcc.fl.edu/media/divisions/library/citation-guide/turabianx2fchicago/Turabian-Sample-2012-Footnotes_ADA.pdf
Quote

Then the heavens broke. On the night of October 6-7, snow fell on the southern German spearhead and was subsequently followed by nearly a month of cold rain, mixed with snow, across the entire front. A seasonal shift in the regional storm track had begun pushing a series of Scandinavian Cyclones into the greater Moscow region. These intermittent snow and rain squalls, driven by strong northeastern winds, frequently grounded the two German air fleets supporting the offensive. More ominously, when coupled with the much lower fall evaporation rates, this steady wintry mix soon turned the area‘s few existing roads into quagmires.

I will provide rain for your land in the proper time, the autumn and spring rains (Deut 11:14)

With the severe mud German mobility ceased. The mud also wreaked havoc on German machinery. Fuel was consumed at three times the normal rate. General Guderian recalled that,

“. . . the roads rapidly became nothing but canals of bottomless mud, along which our vehicles could advance only at snail’s pace, and with great wear to the engines.  The next few weeks were dominated by the mud. Wheeled vehicles could advance only with the help of tracked vehicles. These latter, having to perform tasks for which they were not intended, rapidly wore out.”

http://www.allworldwars.com/Effects-of-Climate-on-Combat-in-European-Russia.html
Quote
The entire German army was completely stopped by mud. The muddy season of that year began in mid-October and was more severe than any other muddy season experienced in World War I or World War II. During the first stages cart and dirt roads were impassable, and then the road from Roslavl to Orel became mud-choked. Supply trucks broke through gravel-top roads and churned up traffic lanes until even courier service had to be carried out with tracked vehicles. Finally only horse-drawn vehicles could move; all other transport and the bulk of the tanks and artillery were stopped dead…

Motor vehicles broke down with clutch or motor trouble. Horses became exhausted and collapsed. Roads were littered with dead draft animals. Few tanks were serviceable….

Second Panzer Group… lost 60 percent of its tanks in mud. A division of Fourth Panzer Group, operating in the area north of Gzhatsk during the same period, lost fifty tanks without a shot being fired…no replacements were received. Germany at that time was producing only eighty-five tanks monthly… Tanks, heavy wreckers, and even vehicles with good ground clearance simply push an ever-growing wall of mud before them until they finally stop, half buried by their own motion. A sudden frost in the autumn of 1941 cemented a crippled, buried column into a state of complete uselessness, and it never moved again.



By November 1, two-thirds of the German trucks had broken down. The muddy season destroyed much of Germany’s motorized transport. What followed was winter and it was not a normal Russian winter. Instead the Nazi’s faced the most severe winter of the twentieth century.

Germany‘s soldiers froze when the full fury of the Russian winter hit on December 5, and the temperature subsequently plunged to a staggering -40º. Over one hundred thousand German soldiers had fallen out ill during the month-long Rasputitsa. Between the first week of December and early March, Army Group Center suffered frightful losses: over 256,000 dead and 350,000 sick or hospitalized with winter-related maladies such as frostbite.

Quote
Cold reduced the efficiency of German locomotives which had been built for the milder temperatures of Central Europe. During the first winter of the war 70 percent of the German locomotives broke down In the winter of 1941-12, sometimes only one third, and frequently less, of the daily quota of twenty-eight trains got through to Army Group Center. The German Second Army and Second Panzer Army together required eighteen supply trains a day and received only two. In November 1941 these armies were unable to take Tula because their supply system had broken down. Even the most critical supplies did not reach the front in time…

Paralyzed by cold, the German troops could not aim their rifle fire, and bolt mechanisms jammed or strikers shattered in the bitter winter weather. Machine guns became encrusted with ice, recoil liquid froze in guns, ammunition supply failed. Mortar shells detonated in deep snow with a hollow, harmless thud, and mines were no longer reliable.

B) Loss of operational secrecy
Prior to the Fall of 1941. The Nazi’s constantly surprised their enemies. Everything from the Invasion of Norway, to the assault on France, to the invasion of Russia came as a surprise to their opponents. After 1941 the Nazi’s lost all operational secrecy resulting in a dramatic loss of initiative.
 
The Allies achieved this advantage in part by breaking a top secret German code called Tunny. This was the high-level Nazi encryption machines used by Hitler and Mussolini to communicate directly with their generals in the field. The Germans were convinced that the Tunny cipher system was unbreakable. The system used 12 encryption wheels, four times as many as the famous Enigma machine, which was used in the field and carried standard military communications. How did the Allies break the code?

http://www.rutherfordjournal.org/article030109.html
Quote
On 30 August 1941 two messages with the same indicator were intercepted, B.P. suspected that they had found a depth (A mistake where the Tunny operator does not reset the encryption between messages). As it turned out, the first transmission had been corrupted by atmospheric noise, and the message was resent at the request of the receiving operator. Had the sender repeated the message identically, the use of the same wheel settings would have left (the allies) none the wiser. However, in the course of the second transmission the sender introduced abbreviations and other minor deviations (the message was approximately 4000 characters long). So the depth consisted of two not-quite-identical plaintexts each encrypted by means of exactly the same sequence of key—a codebreaker’s dream. Tutte deduced the design of the Tunny machine from this pair of intercepts.

So a German officer violated protocol sending a not quite identical message twice without properly encrypting the second message. This allowed the British codebreakers to reverse-engineer the German encryption machine, a process later described as "an incredible feat of dedication". This was all made possible because "random" atmospheric noise corrupted a transmission at the exact moment a lazy operator was sending a long message and did not follow protocol. Had this atmospheric noise not occurred the Tunny code may not have been broken.
  
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/captain-jerry-roberts-bletchley-park-codebreaker-who-helped-crack-the-tunny-code-hitler-used-to-9219984.html

Quote
The stream of intelligence (from Tunny) proved vital at key junctures of the war. The Russians were warned three or four months in advance of a major German offensive, Operation Citadel, the Battle of Kursk in July 1943, which went down in history as the biggest ever tank battle. The Russians were told how the attack would be carried out – a pincer movement – as well as the numbers involved…Other intelligence enabled the Allies to ascertain German movements when planning D-Day, helping save thousands of lives.
Between 1943 and 1945, Roberts and the Testery codebreakers were accessing 90 per cent of the German traffic with, at a conservative estimate, around 64,000 top-line Tunny messages intercepted and broken. Sir Harry Hinsley, a Bletchley veteran and official historian of British Intelligence during the Second World War, has estimated that the intelligence shortened the war by at least two years

However, Tunny was not fully broken in time to warn the Soviets of the German’s 1942 summer offensive towards Stalingrad. The 1942 German invasion plan was called Case Blue and was an attack on southern Russia. The goal of this attack was to destroy the Soviet forces of 1 million soldiers at the frontline in that area and capture the soviet oil fields in the caucuses. Stalin was entirely focused on Moscow certain a German attack would occur in the North. Yet despite this misconception a quirk of history would warn the Soviets of the upcoming German attack.

Early on the morning of the 19th of June 1942 an unarmed German liaison plan guided to earth near soviet army positions. There was no trail of smoke or obvious reason for its crash landing. When soviet troops captured the aircraft they found a single bullet hole through its petrol tank. The pilot was killed before he could destroy his briefcase which contained the top secret German plans. The dead German was Major Richter head of operation for the German 23 panzer division. He was carrying plans for the upcoming Case Blue Invasion. The single bullet hitting a moving plane at exactly the right spot apparently caused the plane to run out of fuel right over Soviets positions. The secret German plans literally fell in the Soviet’s hands out of “chance”. Unlike the the previous year when the Germans surprised and surrounded millions of soviet troops Case Blue lead to very few prisoners as the Soviets conducted an orderly withdraw in front of a German attack that was no longer a surprise.      

C) Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor
In 1941 the US was highly isolationist. Public opinion was strongly against entry into war. On December 7th, 1941 the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. This act would change public opinion and bring the massive strength of the USA down upon the Axis ensuring their defeat. Why did Japan attack the USA? That story is a very interesting one and revolves around a man named Dean Acheson.

http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=22899
Quote
As of June 1941, Japanese companies had already obtained approved licenses for "7.1 million barrels of gasoline, 21.9 million barrels of crude oil, and 33,000 barrels of lubricants, altogether worth about $50 million," which meant that Japan could legally purchase from the United States "gasoline for another nine months and ordinary crude oil for an astonishing thirty-two months--enough to supply it until the end of 1943!". To Dean Acheson and some other hard-liners the idea of freezing Japanese assets became increasingly attractive, for a financial freeze by a single stroke of pen could cut U.S. exports to Japan to zero despite the approved licenses for oil purchase Japan had already obtained.

In response to Japanese troops' occupation of southern Indochina, Roosevelt wanted to impose "a dollar freeze that would subject all transactions with Japan to licensing", which gave the United States flexibility to decide later how much trade Japan should be allowed to resume based on its future behavior. According to the plan, the State Department and the Export Control Administration would continue to grant Japanese export licenses for oil, but a newly created three-man interdepartmental policy committee, the Foreign Funds Control Committee (FFCC), had to release funds for licensed exports.

When the United States froze Japanese assets in the United states the president told his interior secretary, Harold Ickes, at the time, his goal was not war in the Pacific: “I simply have not got enough Navy to go around—and every little episode in the Pacific means fewer ships in the Atlantic.”. He had earlier told Churchill that a fight with Japan would be “the wrong war in the wrong ocean at the wrong time.” The PM agreed their first objective must be to defeat Hitler. Roosevelt’s involvement is unclear but with or without approval it was in August of 1941 that Assistant secretary of state Dean Acheson set the USA on the course to war against Japan.

http://www.salon.com/2013/12/05/oil_led_to_pearl_harbor/
Quote
Roosevelt, his trusted adviser Harry Hopkins and U.S. Undersecretary of State Sumner Welles were attending the shipboard conference off Newfoundland in and Secretary of State Cordell Hull was on vacation at the Greenbrier in West Virginia, the authority to grant licenses to export and pay for oil and other goods was left in the hands of a three-person interagency committee dominated by Assistant Secretary of State Dean Acheson, whom one historian described as the “quintessential opportunist of U.S. foreign policy in 1941.”

Acheson favored a “bullet-proof freeze” on oil shipments to Japan, claiming it would not provoke war because “no rational Japanese could believe that an attack on us could result in anything but disaster for his country.”

With breathtaking confidence in his own judgment, and ignoring the objections of others in the State Department, Acheson refused to grant licenses to Japan to pay for goods in dollars. That effectively ended Japan’s ability to ship oil and all other goods from the United States. Acheson’s actions cut off all American trade with Japan. When Roosevelt returned, he decided not to overturn the “state of affairs” initiated by Acheson, (possibly) because he feared he would otherwise be regarded as an appeaser.

Oil was Japan's most crucial import, and more than 80% of Japan's oil at the time came from the United States. IJN headquarters informed Emperor Hirohito its reserve bunker oil would be exhausted within two years if a new source was not found. In August 1941, Japanese prime minister Fumimaro Konoe proposed a summit with President Roosevelt to discuss differences. Roosevelt replied Japan must leave China before a summit meeting could be held. On September 6, 1941, Japanese leaders met to discuss this crisis. Prime Minister Konoe argued for more negotiations and possible concessions to avert war. Prime Minister Konoe, was almost assassinated by pro-war fanatics wielding ceremonial knives. Weakened by the attempt to overthrow him and losing power and influence to militarist elements, Prince Konoe’s government fell on October 16, and he was replaced by hardliners.

In August of 1941 the Nazis appeared on the brink of total victory. The UK was in danger of being economically strangled by submarine warfare and armies of the Russians were collapsing. Two months later the vectors of fate had dramatically shifted. The severe weather was crippling the German army, top secret German communications were compromised, and the stage was set for US entry into the war. Tremendous sacrifice from the allies especially Russia would follow. The Nazi’s were now destined for defeat.
 
When asked to defend their belief that there is no God non-believers will often point to some horrific evil in the world and ask the following question:

“Why did God permit this why didn’t he stop it?”

The horror of the Holocaust is one example commonly cited. Here is one such argument:
https://whistlinginthewind.org/2012/05/07/why-did-god-not-stop-the-holocaust/
Quote
Why Did God Not Stop The Holocaust?
I can only see three possible explanations. Either God refused to prevent this genocide, in which case he is a bastard who we should not worship and praise. Or he did not know about the genocide or could do nothing to prevent it, in which case there is no point worshiping him and praying to him. Or he does not exist and they would have been as well praying for fairies or unicorns to save them. Draw your own conclusions.

Such argument ignores another possibility. Perhaps God did intervene to stop the Holocaust! The books of Jeremiah and Genesis are Holy Scripture to both Christians and Jews. These books spell out a promise made by God.

For I am with you, says the LORD, to save you: though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, yet will I not make a full end of you: but I will correct you in just measure, and will not leave you altogether unpunished. (Jer. 30:11).

I will keep My covenant between Me and you, and your offspring after you throughout their generations, as an everlasting covenant to be your God and the God of your offspring after you” (Gen. 17:7).

Let us for a moment explore a hypothetical. Is it possible that God exists and that he created a world where humans are given free will even to do evil? Is it also possible that the promises written in Jeremiah and Genesis are promises from God that will be kept?
 
In their early years the Nazi’s discriminated against Jews but they did not try to exterminate them. This early Nazism was not an existential threat to the Jewish people. However, with the invasion of the Soviet Union that would change.

In June 1941. Four mobile killing groups were formed called special duty units Einsatzgruppen A, B, C and D. These squads would follow the German army, as it advanced deep into Soviet territory, and carry out mass-murder operations. At first, the mobile killing squads primarily targeted adult Jewish men. Initially there was a semblance of legality given to the shootings, with trumped-up charges being read out (arson, sabotage, black marketeering, or refusal to work, for example) and victims being killed by a firing squad. However, by August of 1941 net had been widened to include women and children.

The Einsatzgruppen gathered Jews town by town, marched them to huge pits dug earlier, stripped them, lined them up, and shot them with automatic weapons with survivors being killed with a pistol shot.


A people can perhaps survive the murder of its adult male population but it cannot survive the deaths of its women and children. By August of 1941 there was no longer be any doubt that the Jewish people were in danger of complete destruction.
 
http://chosenpeople.com/main/index.php/the-bible-and-the-preservation-of-the-jewish-people
Quote
The late Israeli Prime Minister, Menachem Begin, made a similar point, speaking at the Western Wall… (he) reminded his audience how close Hitler and Nazi Germany came to winning World War II. Had Hitler been successful, it would have meant the murder of not only six million European Jewish people, but could likely have led to the murder of virtually all the Jewish people around the globe.

Perhaps it is all a giant coincidence that it was also in August of 1941 that the fortunes of Nazi Germany took a dramatic turn for the worse. Perhaps it is simply chance that simultaneously altered so many vectors of destiny.
 
Nevertheless when people ask why didn’t God stop the holocaust and save the Jews I answer with a query of my own.

What makes you think he didn’t?



See:
Intervention Theory: Solar Activity and Earth's Climate

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December 17, 2016, 10:46:45 PM
 #70

The Devil is always trying to destroy Jewish people because then God's promises, future prophecies and the Holy Bible would become a lie.
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December 18, 2016, 12:46:54 AM
 #71

The thing that defeated nazi germany on russian territory was pretty much the same thing that defeated napoleon some hundred years ago: the weather (and of course the russian army that needed time to rally).

Secret communication can be broken best example is the enigma.

The US entry into ww2 was nothing of a wonder it was more or less very obvious for all war parties (supporting allied powers with money, arms and soldiers while having economic sanctions and blockades against the axis powers).

All in all the war was very unlikely to be won after germany went into a 3 front war in the west, east and south in africa.
Germany itself has nearly no resources and could only run their war machinery by looting the invaded nations and getting help by swiss bankers who they used to sold their stolen goods (mostly gold) for foreign currency to buy war needed assets (historians say that probaly 75% went through switzerland).

There is a reason why people want to save their (illegal) money in swissbanks. And the reason is if even nazis could do good, secret and stable business in wartime their everyone else could too.

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December 18, 2016, 01:31:32 AM
Last edit: December 18, 2016, 06:48:38 AM by CoinCube
 #72

The thing that defeated nazi germany on russian territory was pretty much the same thing that defeated napoleon some hundred years ago: the weather (and of course the russian army that needed time to rally).

Secret communication can be broken best example is the enigma.

The US entry into ww2 was nothing of a wonder it was more or less very obvious for all war parties (supporting allied powers with money, arms and soldiers while having economic sanctions and blockades against the axis powers).

All in all the war was very unlikely to be won after germany went into a 3 front war in the west, east and south in africa.
Germany itself has nearly no resources and could only run their war machinery by looting the invaded nations and getting help by swiss bankers who they used to sold their stolen goods (mostly gold) for foreign currency to buy war needed assets (historians say that probaly 75% went through switzerland).

There is a reason why people want to save their (illegal) money in swissbanks. And the reason is if even nazis could do good, secret and stable business in wartime their everyone else could too.

The best example of WW2 code breaking was the Tunny code for that was the more complex code used for high level communications. It was more secure then enigma which was for routine army communications. Less people know about Tunny because it was not declassified until 2002.

https://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/lorenz/fish.htm
Quote
The German mistake

As the number of intercepts, now being made at Knockholt in Kent, increased a section was formed in Bletchley Park headed by Major Ralph Tester and known as the Testery. A number of Depths were intercepted but not much headway had been made into breaking the cipher until the Germans made one horrendous mistake. It was on 30 August 1941. A German operator had a long message of nearly 4,000 characters to be sent from one part of the German Army High command to another — probably Athens to Vienna. He correctly set up his Lorenz machine and then sent a twelve letter indicator, using the German names, to the operator at the receiving end. This operator then set his Lorenz machine and asked the operator at the sending end to start sending his message. After nearly 4,000 characters had been keyed in at the sending end, by hand, the operator at the receiving end sent back by radio the equivalent, in German, of "didn't get that — send it again".

They now both put their Lorenz machines back to the same start position. Absolutely forbidden, but they did it. The operator at the sending end then began to key in the message again, by hand. If he had been an automaton and used exactly the same key strokes as the first time then all the interceptors would have got would have been two identical copies of the cipher text. Input the same — machines generating the same obscuring characters — same cipher text. But being only human and being thoroughly disgusted at having to key it all again, the sending operator began to make differences in the second message compared to the first.

The weather definitely played a huge role in the Nazi defeat but most people believe it was a normal Russian winter that so hindered the Germans when it was anything but normal. In fact it may have been the worst winter in the history of modern Russia. In was part of a global climate anomaly that led to warmer temperatures in the US especially Alaska and shockingly cold temperatures in European Russia. Below is a study on that abnormality if you are interested.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1256/wea.248.04/asset/2005601203_ftp.pdf;jsessionid=5315F60F80655CFF39BD158D8AFF5E94.f03t04?v=1&t=iwtytht6&s=20cbb924f6b287ee48ab4b9d71231917c48a314a

The US entry eventually may not be a surprise but the speed of that entry is of note. It took the US three years to enter into WWI for example and public opinion was absolutely against US involvement in WWII. Pearl Harbor changed that calculus and accelerated US entry into the war by at least six months maybe more. Below is an analysis by a historian arguing that Roosevelt would not have gotten a declaration of War without Pearl Harbor.

http://www.historynet.com/would-fdr-have-gotten-a-declaration-of-war-without-pearl-harbor.htm


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December 18, 2016, 01:38:53 AM
 #73

Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and Social Darwinism

Whoever wrote this sentence gets an F-.  Anarchy is social Darwinism, while Nazism is group evolutionary strategy.  Jews practice Nazism themselves, they just call it "Zionism" or "Judaism" as a red herring when both groups practice the exact same thing:

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Jewish_group_evolutionary_strategy




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criptix
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December 18, 2016, 01:51:43 AM
Last edit: December 18, 2016, 02:33:35 AM by criptix
 #74

The thing that defeated nazi germany on russian territory was pretty much the same thing that defeated napoleon some hundred years ago: the weather (and of course the russian army that needed time to rally).

Secret communication can be broken best example is the enigma.

The US entry into ww2 was nothing of a wonder it was more or less very obvious for all war parties (supporting allied powers with money, arms and soldiers while having economic sanctions and blockades against the axis powers).

All in all the war was very unlikely to be won after germany went into a 3 front war in the west, east and south in africa.
Germany itself has nearly no resources and could only run their war machinery by looting the invaded nations and getting help by swiss bankers who they used to sold their stolen goods (mostly gold) for foreign currency to buy war needed assets (historians say that probaly 75% went through switzerland).

There is a reason why people want to save their (illegal) money in swissbanks. And the reason is if even nazis could do good, secret and stable business in wartime their everyone else could too.

The best example of WW2 code breaking was the Tunny code for that was the more complex code used for high level communications. It was more secure then enigma which was for routine army communications. Less people know about Tunny because it was not declassified until 2002.

https://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/lorenz/fish.htm
Quote
The German mistake

As the number of intercepts, now being made at Knockholt in Kent, increased a section was formed in Bletchley Park headed by Major Ralph Tester and known as the Testery. A number of Depths were intercepted but not much headway had been made into breaking the cipher until the Germans made one horrendous mistake. It was on 30 August 1941. A German operator had a long message of nearly 4,000 characters to be sent from one part of the German Army High command to another — probably Athens to Vienna. He correctly set up his Lorenz machine and then sent a twelve letter indicator, using the German names, to the operator at the receiving end. This operator then set his Lorenz machine and asked the operator at the sending end to start sending his message. After nearly 4,000 characters had been keyed in at the sending end, by hand, the operator at the receiving end sent back by radio the equivalent, in German, of "didn't get that — send it again".

They now both put their Lorenz machines back to the same start position. Absolutely forbidden, but they did it. The operator at the sending end then began to key in the message again, by hand. If he had been an automaton and used exactly the same key strokes as the first time then all the interceptors would have got would have been two identical copies of the cipher text. Input the same — machines generating the same obscuring characters — same cipher text. But being only human and being thoroughly disgusted at having to key it all again, the sending operator began to make differences in the second message compared to the first.

The weather definitely played a huge role in the Nazi defeat but most people believe it was a normal Russian winter that so hindered the Germans when it was anything but normal. In fact it may have been the worst winter in the history of modern Russia. In was part of a global climate anomaly that led to warmer temperatures in the US especially Alaska and shockingly cold temperatures in Russia. Below is a study on that abnormality if you are interested.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1256/wea.248.04/asset/2005601203_ftp.pdf;jsessionid=5315F60F80655CFF39BD158D8AFF5E94.f03t04?v=1&t=iwtytht6&s=20cbb924f6b287ee48ab4b9d71231917c48a314a

The US entry eventually may not be a surprise but the speed of that entry is of note. It took the US three years to enter into WWI for example and public opinion was absolutely against US involvement in WWII. Pearl Harbor changed that calculus and accelerated US entry into the war by at least six months maybe more. Below is an analysis by a historian arguing that Roosevelt would not have gotten a declaration of War without Pearl Harbor.

http://www.historynet.com/would-fdr-have-gotten-a-declaration-of-war-without-pearl-harbor.htm



You are talking about the lorenz machine. It is pretty much the same as the enigma - just way more user friendly (which was the goal of the machine) because you could type in plain text and the machine would send the encrypted text.
The receiver machine would give out the encrypted text as plain text again.
Reason why it didnt replace the enigma was its size and weight.


I dont know if the russian weather was an anomaly but it was definietly one of the main reasons why the "Wehrmacht" failed operation Barbarossa.

Pearl habor was a very good reason for the US entry but even without i doubt that the US would have done nothing while nazi germany invades the UK. I mean at that point im pretty sure the US would have entered the fray.

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CoinCube (OP)
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December 18, 2016, 01:53:59 AM
Last edit: December 18, 2016, 02:06:39 AM by CoinCube
 #75

Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and Social Darwinism

Whoever wrote this sentence gets an F-.  Anarchy is social Darwinism, while Nazism is group evolutionary strategy.  Jews practice Nazism themselves, they just call it "Zionism" or "Judaism" as a red herring when both groups practice the exact same thing:

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Jewish_group_evolutionary_strategy

I believe it comes from this guy. The first paragraph was missing it's quotes.

Baum, Bruce David (2006). The Rise and Fall of the Caucasian Race: A Political History of Racial Identity. New York City / London: New York University Press. p. 156

Below is a paper arguing that the Nazis did believe in social Darwinism.
https://www.csustan.edu/sites/default/files/History/Faculty/Weikart/Darwinism-in-Nazi-Racial-Thought.pdf

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December 18, 2016, 03:38:36 PM
 #76

Intervention Theory is simply another plaything that some people use to distract us from all-pervading cause and effect.

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December 18, 2016, 03:54:24 PM
Last edit: December 18, 2016, 04:53:16 PM by iamnotback
 #77

Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and Social Darwinism

Whoever wrote this sentence gets an F-.  Anarchy is social Darwinism, while Nazism is group evolutionary strategy.  Jews practice Nazism themselves, they just call it "Zionism" or "Judaism" as a red herring when both groups practice the exact same thing:

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Jewish_group_evolutionary_strategy

Incorrect. The Nazis (and all groups other than the Jews) practice evolutionary groupwise self-destruction. The Nazis were collectivists (go study it!).

The Jews are succeeding because their group strategy is correctly aligned with the natural laws of nature.

The Jews sit outside the collectivism and anneal with it groupwise. The is essentially what George Soros was saying when he said being amoral w.r.t. to opportunity costs is rational. This is why the Jews don't do usury to each other (they are a small group scattered across many collectivist regimes, forming a common philosophical bond or group strategy, and usury is collectivism paradigm in the large), only to the other gentiles.

Collectivism is the fault of those who participate in it. The Jews did not take away the free will of the gentiles. Even farm animals have less free will then the gentiles. No wonder the gentiles are less intelligent (on a groupwise basis) than cows, because they choose collectivism every damn time even though the Lord said not to in 1 Samuel 8.

Example:

Also no need for ad hominem attacks, calling me a dumb ass is not constructive to the debate. Also nothing you've said proves that man is not capable of impacting the long term temperature of the Earth.

Because you implied (upthread) that we are not rational, when it is you who needs to do your homework. We already have.

And because you don't do your homework, you choose to destroy your free-will:

Incorrect. The Nazis (and all groups other than the Jews) practice evolutionary groupwise self-destruction. The Nazis were collectivists (go study it!).

The Jews are succeeding because their group strategy is correctly aligned with the natural laws of nature.

The Jews sit outside the collectivism and anneal with it groupwise. The is essentially what George Soros was saying when he said being amoral w.r.t. to opportunity costs is rational. This is why the Jews don't do usury to each other (they are a small group scattered across many collectivist regimes, forming a common philosophical bond or group strategy, and usury is collectivism paradigm in the large), only to the other gentiles.

Collectivism is the fault of those who participate in it. The Jews did not take away the free will of the gentiles. Even farm animals have less free will then the gentiles. No wonder the gentiles are less intelligent (on a groupwise basis) than cows, because they choose collectivism every damn time even though the Lord said not to in 1 Samuel 8.

And we will let you do it. Please continue. You will reap what you sow.
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December 19, 2016, 12:58:44 PM
Last edit: December 19, 2016, 01:24:26 PM by r0ach
 #78

The Jews sit outside the collectivism and anneal with it groupwise

Collectivism is the fault of those who participate in it

Most irrational thing I've ever read.  Jews are the most collectivist, borg-like, hive mind people on the planet.  This is why they're currently winning.  History is a lesson of individuals coming in contact with collectivist groups, who then force the individual into his own collectivist group in order to not be trampled.  

You attempted to take a contrarian viewpoint on the Jewish question out of some ego trip and failed miserably.  It's already been analyzed by millions of intelligent people before all coming to the same conclusion.

Collectivists are a threat to the freedom of the individual, but collectivists cannot be beaten without participating in an opposing collectivist group yourself.




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CoinCube (OP)
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December 19, 2016, 05:40:33 PM
 #79

The Jews sit outside the collectivism and anneal with it groupwise

Collectivism is the fault of those who participate in it

Most irrational thing I've ever read.  Jews are the most collectivist, borg-like, hive mind people on the planet.  This is why they're currently winning.  History is a lesson of individuals coming in contact with collectivist groups, who then force the individual into his own collectivist group in order to not be trampled.  

You attempted to take a contrarian viewpoint on the Jewish question out of some ego trip and failed miserably.  It's already been analyzed by millions of intelligent people before all coming to the same conclusion.

Collectivists are a threat to the freedom of the individual, but collectivists cannot be beaten without participating in an opposing collectivist group yourself.

My understanding is that the Judaism holds that personal responsibility and the Torah is the way to  achieve true freedom. They view the 10 commandments in particular as necessary restrictions to maintain a free society. The Jewish view on freedom is nuanced.

Judaism and Freedom
http://m.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/161003/jewish/What-Kind-of-Freedom-is-this-Anyway.htm
Quote
It depends on how you define freedom. If being free means doing whatever you want, with no rules or limits whatsoever, then you are right. If I am only free as long as no one tells me what to do and I can follow my every whim and fancy, then being forbidden to eat bread is indeed an infringement of my "freedom."

But is that really freedom? Am I not then just a slave to my whims and fancies? What if my fancies are not really coming from me? Maybe I have desires that were placed in my head by others. Am I truly free if I follow those desires? What if I have instinctive drives that are harmful to myself? Can you call me free if I am bound by those drives? What about compulsive or addictive behavior? Bad habits? Can't you also be a slave to what you want?

Judaism defines freedom very differently. True freedom is the ability to express who you really are. If there are levels to your personality that have not been explored, if your soul has not had the opportunity to be expressed, then you are not yet free.

The Torah is the instruction manual to our souls. Even its seemingly restrictive laws are only there to allow us to tap in to our inner self. Because sometimes it is only through restrictions that our true self can come out.

Another less abstract explanation of the same point can be found here:
https://www.prageru.com/courses/religionphilosophy/i-am-lord-your-god

There is no doubt that many Jews especially secular Jews currently and historically have taken leadership roles in the left and many of those causes are undoubtedly collectivists.

However, the left is not Judiadm a point that was highlighted recently by Dennis Prager who is Jewish.

Left-Wing Jews Are Embarrassing Judaism
http://www.dennisprager.com/left-wing-jews-are-embarrassing-judaism/
Quote
A highly respected American rabbi named Dr. Irving “Yitz” Greenberg used to tell American Jewish audiences, whether Reform, Conservative Orthodox, “I don’t care what denomination you’re a member of, as long as you’re ashamed of it.”

I have adopted that phrase, and I apply it to religions generally. One could just as easily say to Catholics, Protestants and Muslims, “I don’t care what religion you identify with, as long as you’re ashamed of it.” Meaning, of course, you’re ashamed of what many of its members have done to it.
Just think of what has happened to much of mainstream Protestantism; to much of Catholicism, including, sadly, the current pope; and most especially, to the Islamic world.

Given the subject of this column — the destructive influence of leftism on Jews and Judaism — it is relevant to mention some of my Jewish involvement. Among other things, I taught Jewish history and religion at Brooklyn College, was the spokesman for the Student Struggle for Soviet Jewry, have written two books and hundreds of essays and columns on Jews and Judaism, received the American Jewish Press Association Louis Rapoport Award for Excellence in Jewish Commentary, have brought many thousands of Jews to Judaism and have lectured to more Jewish groups in the past 40 years than almost any living Jew.

So, I say this with only sadness: Many American Jews on the left, including rabbis and lay leaders, are embarrassing Jews and Judaism. I say this to ring an alarm in Jewish life and to tell non-Jewish America that these people represent leftism, not Judaism. Furthermore, I am talking only about leftist Jews, not liberal Jews. Unfortunately, however, liberalism has become synonymous with leftism both within and outside Judaism.
This past week, the embarrassing behavior of left-wing Jews reached a new level.

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that Jews and their clergy at various synagogues around America were gathering to sit shiva — the Hebrew and Jewish term for the seven-day period of grieving that Jews engage in after the loss of an immediate relative — because Donald Trump was elected president.
Consider for a moment how childish and narcissistic this is, using the sacred ritual reserved for the death of one’s child or parent as a way to express disappointment over a presidential election.

And of course, there were the irresponsible, over-the-top outbursts by Jewish columnists and academics. Take Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank, who devoted his column after the election to writing an open letter to his 12-year-old daughter...

Add similar comments made during the election by other Jewish leftists in the media and academia, and you get the picture.

How are we to understand this?

Here’s one explanation: When Jews abandoned Judaism, many of them did not abandon Judaism’s messianic impulse. From Karl Marx — the grandson of two Orthodox rabbis — and onwards, they simply secularized it and created secular substitutes, such as Marxism, humanism, socialism, feminism and environmentalism.


If left-wing Jews want to sit shiva, they should do so for their religion, which, like much of Protestant Christianity and Roman Catholicism, has been so deeply and negatively influenced by leftism.

For the reasons above I therefore disagree with the claim that Judaism is collectivists though the Jewish left certainly is. Torah observant Judaism appears to be arguing that true freedom requires responsibility and presenting itself as the optimal way to achieve freedom. That is one of the reasons I find the religion so fascinating.

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December 19, 2016, 06:40:48 PM
 #80

My understanding is that the Judaism holds that personal responsibility and the Torah is the way to  achieve true freedom. They view the 10 commandments in particular as necessary restrictions to maintain a free society.

It appears you missed the class on Talmudic Judaism because everything you typed only pertains to Jews dealing with other Jews.  Non-Jews are referred to as "goyim", and are essentially cattle to be used as slaves.

Here they are in a 1 minute clip flat out saying it as usual.  No, this is not even close to a one off; this is the norm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCLtAbULUtw

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