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Author Topic: SegWit and LN are really interesting altcoins... but that is not Bitcoin.  (Read 3507 times)
Carlton Banks
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October 16, 2016, 08:15:49 AM
 #101

Segwit and Lightning both transact Bitcoins, on the Bitcoin network.

You're relying on your audience being too stupid or too lazy to check this for themselves. That's not a very good strategy, anyone can check for themselves, and confirm you're talking nonsense.

they would kill bitcoin since they steal mining fees and pocket it for their investors. This leaves miners without fees, and it would kill bitcoin in the long run, once block rewards become too small to cover the expenses for miners.

Um, you're relying on your audience being too stupid or too lazy to check this for themselves. That's not a very good strategy, anyone can check for themselves, and confirm you're talking nonsense.

There is nothing anywhere in any Lightning design document that says "mining is cancelled, Blockstream investors are the only miners allowed".

Your trolling is terrrrrrrible. And desperate.

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October 16, 2016, 08:25:14 AM
 #102

I have read somewhere in the forum that the lock out time if in case there is an uncooperative channel is 2 weeks. It would be stupid of the developers not to put this feature, making it possible for your coins to be locked forever. I would suggest that the person opening the channel should be able to choose how long the minimum time out is as long as it is not less than 24 hours. I believe that would be better.
if the locktime was 2 weeks thats only 2016 offchain payments are allowed
if the locktime was 24 hours thats only 144 offchain payments are allowed,
ill explain
EG imagine we are at block 450,000 right now
make a TX with 24 hour locktime = 450,144
make a 'payment' offchain, locktime = 450,143 (to keep newest relevant)
make a 'payment' offchain, locktime = 450,142 (to keep newest relevant)
make a 'payment' offchain, locktime = 450,142 (to keep newest relevant)

issues
1) not unlimited.
2) if you make 140 payments in 30 minutes (current block 450,003 - payment lock now reduced to 450,004)you have to close channel and broadcast newest payment quick before previous tx become able to release funds
3) you and peer go offline/sleep. then its a game of who wakes up first and transmits the best tx in their favour, that has passed the timelock.
4) it is not a trustless system, it is a system based on mutual agreement.

atleast talking about the flaws will help develop solutions or users knowing the limitations to make smart choices about how when and why they would use it. rather then pretend its all utopia and every tx should be done on it, always and forever

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
Carlton Banks
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October 16, 2016, 08:28:09 AM
 #103

@Shills


Will regular Bitcoin transactions still be possible, once the altcoins are released? (just trying to see how demented your fantasies really are)

Vires in numeris
Wind_FURY
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October 16, 2016, 09:43:49 AM
 #104

I have read somewhere in the forum that the lock out time if in case there is an uncooperative channel is 2 weeks. It would be stupid of the developers not to put this feature, making it possible for your coins to be locked forever. I would suggest that the person opening the channel should be able to choose how long the minimum time out is as long as it is not less than 24 hours. I believe that would be better.
if the locktime was 2 weeks thats only 2016 offchain payments are allowed
if the locktime was 24 hours thats only 144 offchain payments are allowed,
ill explain
EG imagine we are at block 450,000 right now
make a TX with 24 hour locktime = 450,144
make a 'payment' offchain, locktime = 450,143 (to keep newest relevant)
make a 'payment' offchain, locktime = 450,142 (to keep newest relevant)
make a 'payment' offchain, locktime = 450,142 (to keep newest relevant)

issues
1) not unlimited.
2) if you make 140 payments in 30 minutes (current block 450,003 - payment lock now reduced to 450,004)you have to close channel and broadcast newest payment quick before previous tx become able to release funds
3) you and peer go offline/sleep. then its a game of who wakes up first and transmits the best tx in their favour, that has passed the timelock.
4) it is not a trustless system, it is a system based on mutual agreement.

atleast talking about the flaws will help develop solutions or users knowing the limitations to make smart choices about how when and why they would use it. rather then pretend its all utopia and every tx should be done on it, always and forever

I meant to say is that the lock out time only when there is an uncooperative channel is 2 weeks. Otherwise the channel can remain open as long as the individual at the other end is cooperative.

As for item no. 4 in your post, I agree the system is not trustless but it is better than what something like the Ripple network is proposing. Ripple is all depending on trust that a gateway will not go away with your money. For me it is good to explore all possible avenues for scalabilty. Make the hard fork to bigger blocks the last resort because it is risky.

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Carlton Banks
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October 16, 2016, 09:46:47 AM
 #105

@ Shills


No comment, huh?

So, if you accept that regular Bitcoin is still possible after Segwit/LN are introduced, and that Segwit/LN are altcoins, here's what I suggest you do:


Don't buy any Segwit "coins" lol
Don't buy any Lightning "coins" lol

Problem solved? Cheesy

Vires in numeris
franky1
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October 16, 2016, 10:43:16 AM
 #106

they would kill bitcoin since they steal mining fees and pocket it for their investors. This leaves miners without fees, and it would kill bitcoin in the long run, once block rewards become too small to cover the expenses for miners.

right now miners are not reliant on tx fee's. the miners income is over 97.6% reward:2.4% fee (12.5btc:0.3btc) (reward:txfee) it will be a long time before the flip occurs where miners are reliant on tx fee's and by that time the 'popularity' of bitcoin should have improved enough to have lots of opening and closing of channels to pay the miner fee's.
todays 0.3 fee total becomes 50:50 after the year 2024 (2 reward halvings) but before 2028
changes in bitcoin valuation and also blockcapacity also change/delay when the flip will occur.

lets say we are in the future where 1btc is $6000 and say miners want $10k in just fee's (as oppose to ~$7,500 in reward now) per block..
they will require blocks capable of 166,666tx ONCHAIN at ~6cents a tx(<70mb block)acceptable bloat in 20 years, acceptable fee
they will require blocks capable of 8,500tx ONCHAIN at ~$1.20cents a tx(<4mb block)acceptable bloat in 8 years, not acceptable fee

im not going to bother calculating the 70mb block scenario of 20 years.because although the spread of fee's is cheaper its just going to make the blockstreamers knitpick the blocksize debate. rather than the point about fee's

now lets deal with the finer details
its worth noting
the average person uses a debit/credit card only 20 times a fortnight in the real world, which breaks down as 12cents a LN tx if the same usage occurred offchain within LN to cover the combined $2.40 open/close transactions per fortnight
so the presumption is for LN to remain open for longer to reduce overall cost of use per offchain tx.

which if people were doing the 20tx a fortnight. means that based on a 4mb block in 8 years time
UPTO 2125 channels open per block(2peers tx pay in=1channel), 4250 channels close per block(both paid out in one tx)
a fortnights lock of 4250 people. which equates to a POSSIBLE 8 million people using LN MAX (at 12cent/tx for their usual 20tx a fortnight).
a months lock of 4250 people. which equates to a POSSIBLE 16 million people using LN MAX (at 6cent/tx for their usual 40tx a month).

ofcourse, of block capacity was 8mb in 8 years the onchain fee per tx would be $0.60 to give miners $10k (allowing upto 32mill users using LN)
ofcourse, of block capacity was 16mb in 8 years the onchain fee per tx would be $0.30 to give miners $10k (allowing upto 64mill users using LN)

summary:
i see it as possible to work but thats assuming that
8-16mill active bitcoiners exist
8-16mill people will be happily even want to lockfunds in.
8-16mill people will be happily do 20tx a fortnight-month usage to equate to 6-12cents each LN tx, to cover the combined $2.40 open/close tx
miners want only $10k - if they want more fee's get higher and timelocks need extending to keep overall cost of use down
bitcoin valuation is $6000 - if its lower fee's get higher and timelocks need extending to keep overall cost of use down



and now lets wait for the mindless, unbacked up, unresearched blockstream defender rants that blockstream desire to cause fee war in 2017 instead of 2024-2036 so that offchain/sidechain are the permanent peg utopian future and eventually no one should use bitcoin onchain transactions because they see large fee's are a good barrier of entry to use bitcoin and a ploy to get people to go offchain. (usual bitcoin killing mantra)

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
Wind_FURY
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October 16, 2016, 11:28:39 AM
Last edit: October 16, 2016, 11:39:50 AM by Wind_FURY
 #107

LN's biggest problem is that it increases money supply. Notice that money supply means the available money in the market, not the base money supply, thus modern economy theories seldom use M0 to measure money supply, since a large part of the M0 is sitting there collecting dust without contributing to the economy activities

Comparing two cases:

1. you have 1 bitcoin to pay a merchant, when this 1 bitcoin is in transaction, it is unavailable for anyone else, so the money supply decreased by 1 bitcoin until the merchant received your coin and spent it. If he did not spend it in time, next time you must find a new bitcoin to pay him, this will create new demand for bitcoin

2. you have 1 bitcoin to pay a merchant, but your wallet operator and merchant's wallet operator opened a payment channel between them, and then you and the merchant can do any amount of trades without more bitcoin, because the amount of incoming and outgoing transactions are roughly the same between your wallet operator and merchant's wallet operator, thus their transactions basically cancel each other and no real settlement is required between them, the channel can be left open forever. As a result, you get some salary from your boss through another payment channel, and you pay the merchant through this payment channel, everything happens in payment channel, no real bitcoin is needed


I am confused. Where will this extra LN.BTC come from when the amount locked to open the payment channel is all there is represented in the Lightning Network, no more no less. Please explain what you are trying to say a little better by giving another example.

Quote

So once payment channel and especially routing is established, all the bitcoin transactions can be done with a fraction of the total amount of required bitcoin, that will dramatically reduce the amount of bitcoin demand on market and cause the value to crash

Increased money supply always cause reduced money value, or inflation. Notice that not only new coins can cause inflation, any schemes that could increase the utility of the same bitcoin by multiple times is essentially another form of inflation, this includes payment channel, fractional reserve banking, and other forms of similar schemes


But hold on. Let us assume you are correct with the inflation of the LN.BTC in the network, but do not forget that in order to participate and have funds in LN you should buy Bitcoin. If LN is successful then the demand for real Bitcoins will only go higher. Now this is where the problem of fungibility comes in as I mentioned before. Real Bitcoin's value will go up due to demand but LN.BTC will suffer from variance and in your argument of inflation in LN.BTC it might go down. The effect will be the opposite of what you are thinking because people would prefer to hold real BTC because now it is very clear in its value than lock them in LN when there is no need.

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October 16, 2016, 01:14:47 PM
 #108

Tx a lot to the OP AND to bitcointalk.org + mod to have this kind of thread w/o too much deleting, we all can learn a lot about bitcoin and scaling and tech and politics and insulting. Good.

What is the final outcome now ? Or it is up to definition or semantics ?

And how many posts got deleted for both sides pls?

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Carlton Banks
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October 16, 2016, 01:28:09 PM
 #109

Tx a lot to the OP AND to bitcointalk.org + mod to have this kind of thread w/o too much deleting, we all can learn a lot about bitcoin and scaling and tech and politics and insulting. Good.

Learning about tech is pretty hard going in a thread where both sides don't agree on what the tech is/does. You'll learn alot about false arguments being presented as the truth, however.

And how many posts got deleted for both sides pls?

Are there only 2 sides? I wasn't aware of any deletions, just a bit of convenient post editing after the fact from Franky

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October 16, 2016, 01:32:18 PM
 #110

Tx a lot to the OP AND to bitcointalk.org + mod to have this kind of thread w/o too much deleting, we all can learn a lot about bitcoin and scaling and tech and politics and insulting. Good.

Learning about tech is pretty hard going in a thread where both sides don't agree on what the tech is/does. You'll learn alot about false arguments being presented as the truth, however.

And how many posts got deleted for both sides pls?

Are there only 2 sides? I wasn't aware of any deletions, just a bit of convenient post editing after the fact from Franky

Thx. So from you I can learn all the rest than, exept tech, because no deletions needed....

 Grin

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November 08, 2016, 04:16:12 PM
 #111

Are there only 2 sides? I wasn't aware of any deletions, just a bit of convenient post editing after the fact from Franky
From the most slanted dick in the entire forum.
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