"It's not a scam, it's a Ponzi."

[Tyrantt]

For all this time I've thought that scam and ponzi are the same thing but after seeing the comment "It's not a scam, it's a Ponzi." I realized that I'm wrong. What's the difference?

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[Farcoin12]

Useless post for signature campaign this is not off topic place you can move it to off topic section..
For me its nonesense post they are the same..

[achow101]

For all this time I've thought that scam and ponzi are the same thing but after seeing the comment "It's not a scam, it's a Ponzi." I realized that I'm wrong. What's the difference?

A ponzi scheme is a type of scam. Scams encompass a very wide field of activities. A scam can be someone simply claiming to sell something and you paying them but they don't send. A scam can also be a ponzi scheme. Specifically a ponzi scheme is any type of investment scheme where participants are investing their money and the money that they invested is used to pay the investors before them. You can read more about them here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

[AncilVTwo]

A Ponzi scheme usually pays, also bringing its investors in profit but sooner or later it will collapse due to debts.
Some win and some lose, some sort of modern gambling let's say.

[kelevra]

A Ponzi scheme usually pays, also bringing its investors in profit but sooner or later it will collapse due to debts.
Some win and some lose, some sort of modern gambling let's say.

Hit n' runners are the early investors 

[MartinL]

Participating in a ponzi scheme is a gamble, of course. But unlike casinos, which are generally very transparent about a player's chance to lose, ponzi schemes are almost always marketed as safe "investments". The fact that a ponzi scheme is unable to pay out later "investors" is almost never disclosed, which is what makes it a fraud.

[tmfp]

A ponzi scheme is based on a lie, a pretense that there is some real business activity going on to provide a return to investors.
There isn't any, there is just an admin shuffling money around, paying a bit to new investors with older deposits, until he is far enough ahead to shut up shop and run away.
With bitcoin and anonymity, he doesn't even need to run away, just start up another one.

Some win and some lose, some sort of modern gambling let's say.

This is bullshit.
The only winners are the admin.
It's an attempt by the industry of scammers to make out that everyone knows what's going on and that they are just playing a "ponzi game".
If everyone knew what was going on, there would be no HYIP/Ponzi scams, because there would be no new money coming in to steal.

[marlboroza]

For all this time I've thought that scam and ponzi are the same thing but after seeing the comment "It's not a scam, it's a Ponzi." I realized that I'm wrong. What's the difference?

There is no difference, ponzi is scam. Sooner or later people will lose money there, because there is no product, only money taken from one depositor to pay another, until there are no new depositors and ponzi collapse.

[kanazawa]

Any ponzi is a scam. That's it. You'll put money back, and back until te saturation point comes. Then the scammer will be doing this with lotta people the same time. You put 0.005BTC, so it "doubles", then you put 0.01BTC, then scammer knows your address and the "profile" of your wallet, he can link many things with that and by doin' this with many people, they can run 6,7 8 levels with the ponzi to do a more realistic senario then... he run away with a pack of dollars. That's the Ponzi Scam.

[SyGambler]

technically a ponzi is a scam  cause scamming  isn't about if the site is paying or not , scamming is lying and selling people fake dreams
now in my opinion if the owner is clearly saying that he is running a ponzi then it's not a scam , it would be people fault to opt in since they are 100% aware of what's going on

[ranlo]

technically a ponzi is a scam  cause scamming  isn't about if the site is paying or not , scamming is lying and selling people fake dreams
now in my opinion if the owner is clearly saying that he is running a ponzi then it's not a scam , it would be people fault to opt in since they are 100% aware of what's going on

It's not a scam. When they make it blatantly obvious they're a Ponzi and people still feed them money, that's not a scam. People throwing money into 99% of these sites know exactly what they're doing and the risks they're taking as a result. If I tell you to give me $5 and there's a 99% chance I won't return it, and then I don't give it back, does that make me a scammer? Of course not. Why? Because you already knew the outcome. The same deal with Ponzis around here. I've yet to find ONE that wasn't blatantly obvious, therefore those that are stupid enough to send them money are not being scammed, they're just throwing away money.

People need to stop playing the victim card and stop being so damned greedy. This is ridiculous. "I gave my money to some Internet stranger that promised he'll turn me into a trillionaire in just one month and he didn't. SCAM! IT WASN'T MY FAULT, I THOUGHT I WAS ABOUT TO BE THE FIRST TRILLIONAIRE ON EARTH!" *Continues on to the next Ponzi and repeats the same process, yet again crying because they lost, and then repeats it again and again and again in perpetuity*

[MartinL]

It's not a scam. When they make it blatantly obvious they're a Ponzi and people still feed them money, that's not a scam. People throwing money into 99% of these sites know exactly what they're doing and the risks they're taking as a result. If I tell you to give me $5 and there's a 99% chance I won't return it, and then I don't give it back, does that make me a scammer? Of course not. Why? Because you already knew the outcome. The same deal with Ponzis around here. I've yet to find ONE that wasn't blatantly obvious, therefore those that are stupid enough to send them money are not being scammed, they're just throwing away money.

If you told me to give you $5 and that there is a 99 % you will not return it then it isn't fraud because you've been upfront about the risk and I know what to expect. And I suppose a ponzi scheme that explains exactly how it works and the risks associated with it could be seen more as gambling and may be defensible.

However, the majority of ponzi schemes are not forthright with the fact that "investors" are being paid by later victims. They aren't forthright with the fact that it is impossible for the scheme to pay out forever. Instead, they market themselves as safe investments, often claiming there is a real business behind the scheme.

Now perhaps you and even the majority of the Bitcoin community are aware of this type of scam, but that doesn't lessen the attempted deception and make it any less of a fraud. And the sustained popularity of these schemes implies that there must be many gullible people that are not aware of what they actually are.

People need to stop playing the victim card and stop being so damned greedy. This is ridiculous. "I gave my money to some Internet stranger that promised he'll turn me into a trillionaire in just one month and he didn't. SCAM! IT WASN'T MY FAULT, I THOUGHT I WAS ABOUT TO BE THE FIRST TRILLIONAIRE ON EARTH!" *Continues on to the next Ponzi and repeats the same process, yet again crying because they lost, and then repeats it again and again and again in perpetuity*

I think it's fair to place blame on both parties. Leaving your car unlocked in a bad part of town may be stupid, but that doesn't mean it's not a crime when it gets stolen. Analogously, it's irrational for these people to expect any other outcome from a ponzi scheme, but that doesn't mean they aren't victims of fraud.

[ranlo]

It's not a scam. When they make it blatantly obvious they're a Ponzi and people still feed them money, that's not a scam. People throwing money into 99% of these sites know exactly what they're doing and the risks they're taking as a result. If I tell you to give me $5 and there's a 99% chance I won't return it, and then I don't give it back, does that make me a scammer? Of course not. Why? Because you already knew the outcome. The same deal with Ponzis around here. I've yet to find ONE that wasn't blatantly obvious, therefore those that are stupid enough to send them money are not being scammed, they're just throwing away money.

If you told me to give you $5 and that there is a 99 % you will not return it then it isn't fraud because you've been upfront about the risk and I know what to expect. And I suppose a ponzi scheme that explains exactly how it works and the risks associated with it could be seen more as gambling and may be defensible.

However, the majority of ponzi schemes are not forthright with the fact that "investors" are being paid by later victims. They aren't forthright with the fact that it is impossible for the scheme to pay out forever. Instead, they market themselves as safe investments, often claiming there is a real business behind the scheme.

Now perhaps you and even the majority of the Bitcoin community are aware of this type of scam, but that doesn't lessen the attempted deception and make it any less of a fraud. And the sustained popularity of these schemes implies that there must be many gullible people that are not aware of what they actually are.

People need to stop playing the victim card and stop being so damned greedy. This is ridiculous. "I gave my money to some Internet stranger that promised he'll turn me into a trillionaire in just one month and he didn't. SCAM! IT WASN'T MY FAULT, I THOUGHT I WAS ABOUT TO BE THE FIRST TRILLIONAIRE ON EARTH!" *Continues on to the next Ponzi and repeats the same process, yet again crying because they lost, and then repeats it again and again and again in perpetuity*

I think it's fair to place blame on both parties. Leaving your car unlocked in a bad part of town may be stupid, but that doesn't mean it's not a crime when it gets stolen. Analogously, it's irrational for these people to expect any other outcome from a ponzi scheme, but that doesn't mean they aren't victims of fraud.

They're not obvious? The last one people started accusing of scams would have turned $10 into over 100 quadrillion (100,000 trillion) dollars in under 2 months. Who in their right mind thinks that 1) that's possible and 2) someone would be throwing that money over to complete strangers on an Internet forum just to "be nice?" If you seriously think there's a way to make you the richest person on earth, with more money than is in circulation both in real money WORLDWIDE, PLUS all the digital money WORLDWIDE, and that it can be done in just a few weeks... I just feel bad for you.

[MartinL]

They're not obvious? The last one people started accusing of scams would have turned $10 into over 100 quadrillion (100,000 trillion) dollars in under 2 months. Who in their right mind thinks that 1) that's possible and 2) someone would be throwing that money over to complete strangers on an Internet forum just to "be nice?" If you seriously think there's a way to make you the richest person on earth, with more money than is in circulation both in real money WORLDWIDE, PLUS all the digital money WORLDWIDE, and that it can be done in just a few weeks... I just feel bad for you.

Ponzi schemes might be obvious to you and me, but they keep cropping up, so obviously someone must be falling for them. I think you may be overestimating the financial literacy of the average person. Even on this forum, where the central topic is money, I feel confident in claiming that a good portion of users does not understand something as basic as compound interest.

Be that as it may, ponzi schemes profit from deceiving their participants and that makes them a scam, regardless of whether the victims could have or should have known.

[close up]

PONZI is SCAM lol

[ranlo]

They're not obvious? The last one people started accusing of scams would have turned $10 into over 100 quadrillion (100,000 trillion) dollars in under 2 months. Who in their right mind thinks that 1) that's possible and 2) someone would be throwing that money over to complete strangers on an Internet forum just to "be nice?" If you seriously think there's a way to make you the richest person on earth, with more money than is in circulation both in real money WORLDWIDE, PLUS all the digital money WORLDWIDE, and that it can be done in just a few weeks... I just feel bad for you.

Ponzi schemes might be obvious to you and me, but they keep cropping up, so obviously someone must be falling for them. I think you may be overestimating the financial literacy of the average person. Even on this forum, where the central topic is money, I feel confident in claiming that a good portion of users does not understand something as basic as compound interest.

Be that as it may, ponzi schemes profit from deceiving their participants and that makes them a scam, regardless of whether the victims could have or should have known.

This is why the community is going in the crapper. Because nobody wants to accept responsibility for what they do. Everything is always someone else's fault. Always. If someone doesn't know what they're doing, they shouldn't be "investing" in the first place. That's why most countries have federal laws that prohibit it. If people would accept responsibility for what they do and learn from it (by not being stupid), these things would have disappeared long ago. But until people accept responsibility for what they do, these sites will continue to be released one after another.

[tmfp]

Well, yeah the obvious ones are obvious, obviously, but that's false comfort.

Just like you learn not to buy a $20k watch for $500 if it has "ROLLEX" on the face, it doesn't mean that all $500 watches with "ROLEX" on them are real.
Yeah of course people should take responsibility for their own actions, but it's a positive aspect of human interaction to warn others of danger, just like it's a negative one to try and take advantage of the naive.

I don't really get the point of what you're trying to say.
I would certainly disagree if you're implying that these Ponzi "Games" are in any way legit or 'fair' forms of gambling. They never will be more than a potential scam until they can show that the earlier positions (which get paid out) don't actually belong to the admin. I can't see anyway that can be done.
I also disagree that there's a large unmet demand for these "games". Anyone want to 'play' them can just fuck off to the Russian HYIP forums, there's thousands to choose from.

[MartinL]

This is why the community is going in the crapper. Because nobody wants to accept responsibility for what they do. Everything is always someone else's fault. Always. If someone doesn't know what they're doing, they shouldn't be "investing" in the first place. That's why most countries have federal laws that prohibit it. If people would accept responsibility for what they do and learn from it (by not being stupid), these things would have disappeared long ago. But until people accept responsibility for what they do, these sites will continue to be released one after another.

Don't get me wrong: I do believe that victims share responsibility. Whether they accept that responsibility or not, they're certainly the ones that have to pay for their mistakes. But that doesn't absolve the perpetrators of the scheme or make it any less wrong. I think in this point the "unlocked car in the ghetto" analogy is fitting.

[ranlo]

Well, yeah the obvious ones are obvious, obviously, but that's false comfort.

Just like you learn not to buy a $20k watch for $500 if it has "ROLLEX" on the face, it doesn't mean that all $500 watches with "ROLEX" on them are real.
Yeah of course people should take responsibility for their own actions, but it's a positive aspect of human interaction to warn others of danger, just like it's a negative one to try and take advantage of the naive.

I don't really get the point of what you're trying to say.
I would certainly disagree if you're implying that these Ponzi "Games" are in any way legit or 'fair' forms of gambling. They never will be more than a potential scam until they can show that the earlier positions (which get paid out) don't actually belong to the admin. I can't see anyway that can be done.
I also disagree that there's a large unmet demand for these "games". Anyone want to 'play' them can just fuck off to the Russian HYIP forums, there's thousands to choose from.

Let's try this from another angle.

You're walking down the street and someone says if you give him cash, he'll return in 2 days with double and will allow you to do that every 2 days for as long as you want. He's using a voice changer and is fully hidden behind a costume for each meeting, such that you have no idea who he is and have to rely on HIM coming back to YOU as a result. Do you give him the money? If not, you probably shouldn't be doing that online. You know a LOT more about that guy with the voice changer and costume than you do about these new users that pop up with their ridiculous claims. Yet most people around here would give the anonymous person online money and not the person they actually met. The irony is hilarious.

[tmfp]

Sure, you know that and I know that.
I remember years ago, travelling exotic places, I needed some local currency and asked a normal looking guy in a cafe where was best. His mate turned up and I was nearly going to hand over some cash when the waiter in the background caught my eye and shook his head. I made my excuses and found a proper exchanger.
The point is, there's no downside to helping people who are naive or new in town to avoid being scammed. Bitcoin needs all the friends it can get and there are a lot of kids about who don't know their ass from their elbow.
To see them thru the first contact with the bitcoin environment (with all the hype about "To Da Moon" in the background) isn't committing yourself to wiping their asses for the rest of their lives or making them dependent, it's just The Right Thing to Do^tm.