PPCoin is the only ALTcoin

[chriswen]

Bitcoin is never deflationary...  in order to be deflationary coins must be removed from the supply and destroyed.  The only deflationary component of PPC is the destruction of fees.  The inflationary rate of Bitcoin simply decreases over time and approaches zero.

Yes, but in comparison to USD, BTC is deflationary.

[podizzle]

Bitcoin is never deflationary...  in order to be deflationary coins must be removed from the supply and destroyed.  The only deflationary component of PPC is the destruction of fees.  The inflationary rate of Bitcoin simply decreases over time and approaches zero.

all the lost btc will make it deflationary no?

[Praxis]

Bitcoin is never deflationary...  in order to be deflationary coins must be removed from the supply and destroyed.  The only deflationary component of PPC is the destruction of fees.  The inflationary rate of Bitcoin simply decreases over time and approaches zero.

Yes, but in comparison to USD, BTC is deflationary.

Compared to USD, all cryptos are deflationary

[bootlace]

Bitcoin is never deflationary...  in order to be deflationary coins must be removed from the supply and destroyed.  The only deflationary component of PPC is the destruction of fees.  The inflationary rate of Bitcoin simply decreases over time and approaches zero.

The actual amount of units of currency doesn't necessarily have to change for a currency to be deflationary. All prices going down (currency value going up) is what deflation is.

Imagine a small island of 2 people. They each have 100 dollars and use it to buy stuff from each other that each can produce. Now imagine that one new person was born into this little island every month and the dollars in the island is stuck at 200. Obviously each dollar in that environment would keep gaining value (and buy more stuff the longer it is kept) - which would lead the dollar owners to not usethat cash as sparingly as they normally would.

[robamichael]

Bitcoin is never deflationary...  in order to be deflationary coins must be removed from the supply and destroyed.  The only deflationary component of PPC is the destruction of fees.  The inflationary rate of Bitcoin simply decreases over time and approaches zero.

Yes, but in comparison to USD, BTC is deflationary.

No.

Deflation is a contraction in the supply of money, and, as such, is the opposite of inflation. A decline in the price level is known as price deflation, but outside the Austrian School of Economics, this distinction is rarely made and the term deflation often refers to falling prices.

So even if you are ignoring the economical definition of inflation/deflation, you could only say that BTC is experiencing price inflation in comparison to USD.

Bitcoin is absolutely deflationary once it approaches its limit because more people and goods are being produced yet not money in ciruclation to factor for that addition.

No, see above.

No it's not money that people value differently, its the other good which it is being exchanged for that's value changes for people.

Yes it is the value of the other good, which they trade for money, thus requiring the value of the money to be match the goods!

You're confusing what changes in value, money is supposed to stay constant while different goods and services' worth in the eyes of potential buyers is what changes.

Interests rates do signal the state of the economy, but they shouldn't change the value of money itself, it just changes the value of what you can do with money in the economy. (ie: In a booming economy, there is more opportunity to make profits so entrepreneurs will be looking to get capital to get their businesses going.)

How do you suppose that money stays "constant" if its worth different amounts of goods?

What do you mean by "constant" value then?

Again, I think you're confusing money with price. Prices are what change in relation to each other, money is just a common unit that keeps them all related for easier processing by the brain (would be hard to remember things like 2 gallons of milk = 7 apples otherwise).

Again, I'm not confusing anything, but you are confusing me!

If the price of goods change, then the value of the money you hold relative to those goods also changes! How could it be any different?

1 BTC = 2 Gallons of milk or 1/2 BTC = 1 Gallon of milk.

then suppose

1 BTC = 3 Gallons of milk or 1/3 BTC = 1 Gallon of milk

In this situation, the receiver of a BTC considers the value relative of milk as having appreciated.

But with some external force pegging bitcoin to 1 gallon of milk

No one is pegging anything, free market forces will always determine the correct price.

So we finally agree.

But if the price is determined by the market, the value will change, so I would still like to hear what you mean by money being of "constant" value.

[robamichael]

Bitcoin is never deflationary...  in order to be deflationary coins must be removed from the supply and destroyed.  The only deflationary component of PPC is the destruction of fees.  The inflationary rate of Bitcoin simply decreases over time and approaches zero.

Yes, but in comparison to USD, BTC is deflationary.

Compared to USD, all cryptos are deflationary

Not necessarily, and only when the amount of coins being generated no longer outpaces  the amount of coins destroyed.

[tacotime]

Bitcoin is never deflationary...  in order to be deflationary coins must be removed from the supply and destroyed.  The only deflationary component of PPC is the destruction of fees.  The inflationary rate of Bitcoin simply decreases over time and approaches zero.

The actual amount of units of currency doesn't necessarily have to change for a currency to be deflationary. All prices going down (currency value going up) is what deflation is.

Imagine a small island of 2 people. They each have 100 dollars and use it to buy stuff from each other that each can produce. Now imagine that one new person was born into this little island every month and the dollars in the island is stuck at 200. Obviously each dollar in that environment would keep gaining value (and buy more stuff the longer it is kept) - which would lead the dollar owners to not usethat cash as sparingly as they normally would.

I think what you're referring to is price increases from disinflation.  The Bitcoin protocol is heavily reliant on disinflation.

[bootlace]

I would still like to hear what you mean by money being of "constant" value.

Gold is the perfect type of money because almost the same amount of gold was used thousands of years ago to buy a nice suit as it is today. The reason this applies is because gold has just enough inflation to account for growth (and not be deflationary) yet not too much inflation that it starts diluting the value of the money and make it buy less and less as time passes. The reason this applies to suits and not say, a computer, is because equal effort and resources is needed today for a good suit today compared with a good suit from back in history. Some goods wont fit this example because they might have become harder/easier to make or less desireable/useful in the eyes of the consumer - none of this means the value of money has changed, just the perception of the goods and services in question.

We could be saying the same thing I dont know, sometimes semantics gets in the way of things..

[bootlace]

Bitcoin is never deflationary...  in order to be deflationary coins must be removed from the supply and destroyed.  The only deflationary component of PPC is the destruction of fees.  The inflationary rate of Bitcoin simply decreases over time and approaches zero.

The actual amount of units of currency doesn't necessarily have to change for a currency to be deflationary. All prices going down (currency value going up) is what deflation is.

Imagine a small island of 2 people. They each have 100 dollars and use it to buy stuff from each other that each can produce. Now imagine that one new person was born into this little island every month and the dollars in the island is stuck at 200. Obviously each dollar in that environment would keep gaining value (and buy more stuff the longer it is kept) - which would lead the dollar owners to not usethat cash as sparingly as they normally would.

I think what you're referring to is price increases from disinflation.  The Bitcoin protocol is heavily reliant on disinflation.

There will be disinflation for a while yes, but when no new coin is made this should turn to deflation unless world growth is halted.

[mr_random]

PPCoin has moved up to third in the market capitalisation list, behind only Bitcoin and Litecoin 

[robamichael]

I would still like to hear what you mean by money being of "constant" value.

Gold is the perfect type of money because almost the same amount of gold was used thousands of years ago to buy a nice suit as it is today.

Again this does not address the point of what you mean by constant "value."

During the California gold rush, local prices of goods increased dramatically because there was a high supply of gold. I doubt very much those who lived there thought of gold as having a "constant" value.

If gold stopped inflating right now, we wouldn't be any worse off. The only difficulty that might arise is working with extremely small amounts. Interestingly, BTC is even better at handling divisibility than is gold.

[bootlace]

I would still like to hear what you mean by money being of "constant" value.

Gold is the perfect type of money because almost the same amount of gold was used thousands of years ago to buy a nice suit as it is today.

Again this does not address the point of what you mean by constant "value."

During the California gold rush, local prices of goods increased dramatically because there was a high supply of gold. I doubt very much those who lived there thought of gold as having a "constant" value.

If gold stopped inflating right now, we wouldn't be any worse off. The only difficulty that might arise is working with extremely small amounts. Interestingly, BTC is even better at handling divisibility than is gold.

Ok gold is not 'literally' perfect but pretty damn good track record over thousands of years - there will be vert brief windows when the supply fluctuates messing up the inflationary/deflationary balances..but I dont see how this relates to your point, it just proves that money supply when controlled can lead to stable prices and no inflation/deflation and when it isnt controlled can lead to price fluctuations. If gold miners said today there was no more gold in the world, you can bet the house that gold prices would skyrocket and people would be hoarding their gold like crazy.

[robamichael]

I would still like to hear what you mean by money being of "constant" value.

Gold is the perfect type of money because almost the same amount of gold was used thousands of years ago to buy a nice suit as it is today.

Again this does not address the point of what you mean by constant "value."

During the California gold rush, local prices of goods increased dramatically because there was a high supply of gold. I doubt very much those who lived there thought of gold as having a "constant" value.

If gold stopped inflating right now, we wouldn't be any worse off. The only difficulty that might arise is working with extremely small amounts. Interestingly, BTC is even better at handling divisibility than is gold.

Ok gold is not 'literally' perfect but pretty damn good track record over thousands of years - there will be vert brief windows when the supply fluctuates messing up the inflationary/deflationary balances..but I dont see how this relates to your point, it just proves that money supply when controlled can lead to stable prices and no inflation/deflation and when it isnt controlled can lead to price fluctuations. If gold miners said today there was no more gold in the world, you can bet the house that gold prices would skyrocket and people would be hoarding their gold like crazy.

I am finding some contradictory statements here.

Let's just see if we can agree on these points:

A finite money supply means that changes in the value of the money can be attributed entirely to demand for the money. Price fluctuations in this case are not caused by changes in supply.

Inflation means increasing money supply. Deflation is a contracting money supply.

Price inflation is increasing prices. Price deflation is decreasing prices.


Now hopefully we agree up to this point, but I will have to respectfully disagree with your last statement.

A finite money supply will not cause people to "hoard [...] like crazy." I think the most commonly used arguing point for this is that the electronics industry does just fine and electronics experience price deflation year after year.

There will come a point when the present value of the appreciated currency is more valuable than the future value of the currency, especially considering downside risk. For example, you save (not "hoard") until you can afford a farm, and you decide that diversifying your assets might be a good idea.

After all, you need a place to live, and land is just as limited as Bitcoins!

What value does a currency have, if it is not actually used? If hoarding were really an issue, the price would reach such a point that eventually people would breakdown and decide to spend. Imagine a BTC price of $1M. Are you telling me you wouldn't cash out at all? Not even to get a new wardrobe? Or fix your plumbing? Or buy some food, to you know, survive another day?

[peacefulmind]

Won't PPC also be owned by ASICs?  If I understand the memory requirements it is vulnerable to ASICs.

Do we want all our cryptocurrencies controlled by elites with giant ASIC farms?

[nameface]

Do we want all our cryptocurrencies controlled by elites with giant ASIC farms?

Hell no!

[bootlace]

A finite money supply means that changes in the value of the money can be attributed entirely to demand for the money. Price fluctuations in this case are not caused by changes in supply.

In a perfect environment (where money supply grows/contracts in line with overall economic activity) the relative value of money will not change. If there is a finite money supply but more goods introduced in the economy, then naturally the value of that money increases because the same amount can buy more things. This is basic maths, not even economic theory.

Inflation means increasing money supply. Deflation is a contracting money supply.

Price inflation is increasing prices. Price deflation is decreasing prices

.

When I'm talking about inflation/deflation I'm talking about prices, I'm aware some people relate this to overall money supply but I think just looking at changes in money supply is misleading because it doesn't tell the whole story. Higher money supply COULD cause higher prices, but not necessarily. Anyways this difference in interpretation is not the matter I think.

A finite money supply will not cause people to "hoard [...] like crazy."

One of the main factors affecting gold price is indeed related to the supply of gold, so I'm going to stick with this premise that people will prefer to hold on to something that's going to gain value.

electronics industry does just fine and electronics experience price deflation year after year

Electronics industry suffers from deflation because of innovation and always new and better products coming out, and is not related to the general money supply of an economy. Also electronics are not money that you hold to preserve wealth, they are something that you spend your wealth on to enjoy.

There will come a point when the present value of the appreciated currency is more valuable than the future value of the currency, especially considering downside risk. For example, you save (not "hoard") until you can afford a farm, and you decide that diversifying your assets might be a good idea.

After all, you need a place to live, and land is just as limited as Bitcoins!

What value does a currency have, if it is not actually used? If hoarding were really an issue, the price would reach such a point that eventually people would breakdown and decide to spend. Imagine a BTC price of $1M. Are you telling me you wouldn't cash out at all? Not even to get a new wardrobe? Or fix your plumbing? Or buy some food, to you know, survive another day?

I'm not claiming a deflating currency would not be used AT ALL - of course it would as people need to eat and have bills to pay. I'm saying it would decrease people's willingness to spend it because like you said the value you would need to derive from it would need to be much greater than the current worth of the money. So you go to the shop and see a nice chocolate bar you want to eat, but then you think 'yea I want this, but maybe in couple of weeks I can buy 20% more of this so maybe I'll wait". This kind of thought process shouldn't even be going through the mind of anybody, it just hinders trade and commerce and halts economies and standards of living.

[nameface]

Money supply hardly matters at this early stage of cryptocurrencies. What matters is that we have a sound system and a fair system.
This is why I back PPCoin, because it offers proof of STAKE, not just proof of work (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=168924.0).

[pyra-proxy]

Bitcoin is never deflationary...  in order to be deflationary coins must be removed from the supply and destroyed.  The only deflationary component of PPC is the destruction of fees.  The inflationary rate of Bitcoin simply decreases over time and approaches zero.

Coins are lost in bit coin/saved/hoarded ... these all add deflationary pressure

Deflation can also happen when demand increases and supply does not keep up ... this will be a permanent state for bit coin once the last coins are minted.

[sangaman]

Some of you guys have unusual definitions of inflation/deflation. It's not only about money supply, it's about prices. A fixed money supply in a growing economy is going to experience deflation, according to the accepted definition of the word.

Also ASICs aren't going to control PPCoin since it's a proof of stake coin, they might get most of the new coins but, even then, with greatly increased hashing speed would come lower block rewards.

[robamichael]

Some of you guys have unusual definitions of inflation/deflation. It's not only about money supply, it's about prices. A fixed money supply in a growing economy is going to experience deflation, according to the accepted definition of the word.

The strict definition in economic terms is in regards to the money supply.

Otherwise you are talking about price inflation/price deflation.

If it is not specified which is being discussed, there will be room left for confusion.