Chinese miners rejecting transactions from the US?

[deisik]

Please elaborate how you plan to identify all these US transactions in real time?  I'm not in the US, so please list every single address I've ever been associated with so that I'm not charged more.  According to kiklo, it's really easy

I don't know really. And that's the reason why I started this thread and openly asked about that in the OP. To be honest, the technical impossibility of such discrimination (based on IP, or wallet address, or anything else) is the only true reason why the Chinese miners might not raise the fees on a selective basis as an act of revenge even if Trump lives up to his promises and unleashes a trade war with China. All other arguments like irrationality of such actions, coercion by the government, lack of hashing power, etc are weak and can only somewhat limit the fee riot if things get serious. On the other hand, if things do get serious after all, the miners from China could still indiscriminately raise the fees for all...

What consequences would such events have?

A transaction is not associated with an IP address. There is no way to know where a transaction originates, but the Chinese government could identify transactions not originated in China

I got it. But what about wallet addresses? Some wallet explorers show which service a given address belongs to. For example, my own address, which you can see in my profile page and send your funds to (lol), is correctly determined as part of a Coinbase wallet. If we look at the home page of walletexplorer.com, we will see a list of services like exchanges, pools, web wallets, casinos and so on, with pages of addresses that belong to these services. As far as I understand it, most such services (if not all) have api's that allow to check if a given address is theirs. Otherwise, how could these wallet explorers determine the service a given address belongs to? If they can find that out, why can't Chinese miners do essentially the same?

And I guess this is not the only way to check which country an incoming transaction comes from

[ranochigo]

Please elaborate how you plan to identify all these US transactions in real time?  I'm not in the US, so please list every single address I've ever been associated with so that I'm not charged more.  According to kiklo, it's really easy

I don't know really. And that's the reason why I started this thread and openly asked about that in the OP. To be honest, the technical impossibility of such discrimination (based on IP, or wallet address, or anything else) is the only true reason why the Chinese miners might not raise the fees on a selective basis as an act of revenge even if Trump lives up to his promises and unleashes a trade war with China. All other arguments like irrationality of such actions, coercion by the government, lack of hashing power, etc are weak and can only somewhat limit the fee riot if things get serious. On the other hand, if things do get serious after all, the miners from China could still indiscriminately raise the fees for all...

What consequences would such events have?

A transaction is not associated with an IP address. There is no way to know where a transaction originates, but the Chinese government could identify transactions not originated in China

I got it. But what about wallet addresses? Some wallet explorers show which service a given address belongs to. For example, my own address, which you can see in my profile page and send your funds to (lol), is correctly determined as part of a Coinbase wallet. If we look at the home page of walletexplorer.com, we will see a list of services like exchanges, pools, web wallets, casinos and so on, with pages of addresses that belong to these services. As far as I understand it, most such services (if not all) have api's that allow to check if a given address is theirs. Otherwise, how could these wallet explorers determine the service a given address belongs to? If they can find that out, why can't Chinese miners do essentially the same?

And I guess this is not the only way to check which country an incoming transaction comes from

Online wallets usually do not provide the list of address they control or they would be compromising on privacy. Wallet explorer uses the known address of the various services and use taint analysis to determine which addresses are likely connected to which. For example, Bitfinex is a well known exchange and they have a cold storage and hot wallet address. If your address always sends the funds to those addresses, it is very possible that the address belongs to Bitfinex.

This has several limitations however. If the user were to use a desktop wallet or an online wallet that does not send their fund to a known address that is controlled by them, it would be close to impossible to identify who the address belongs to.

[Capradina]

Please elaborate how you plan to identify all these US transactions in real time?  I'm not in the US, so please list every single address I've ever been associated with so that I'm not charged more.  According to kiklo, it's really easy

I don't know really. And that's the reason why I started this thread and openly asked about that in the OP. To be honest, the technical impossibility of such discrimination (based on IP, or wallet address, or anything else) is the only true reason why the Chinese miners might not raise the fees on a selective basis as an act of revenge even if Trump lives up to his promises and unleashes a trade war with China. All other arguments like irrationality of such actions, coercion by the government, lack of hashing power, etc are weak and can only somewhat limit the fee riot if things get serious. On the other hand, if things do get serious after all, the miners from China could still indiscriminately raise the fees for all...

What consequences would such events have?

A transaction is not associated with an IP address. There is no way to know where a transaction originates, but the Chinese government could identify transactions not originated in China

I got it. But what about wallet addresses? Some wallet explorers show which service a given address belongs to. For example, my own address, which you can see in my profile page and send your funds to (lol), is correctly determined as part of a Coinbase wallet. If we look at the home page of walletexplorer.com, we will see a list of services like exchanges, pools, web wallets, casinos and so on, with pages of addresses that belong to these services. As far as I understand it, most such services (if not all) have api's that allow to check if a given address is theirs. Otherwise, how could these wallet explorers determine the service a given address belongs to? If they can find that out, why can't Chinese miners do essentially the same?

And I guess this is not the only way to check which country an incoming transaction comes from

Online wallets usually do not provide the list of address they control or they would be compromising on privacy. Wallet explorer uses the known address of the various services and use taint analysis to determine which addresses are likely connected to which. For example, Bitfinex is a well known exchange and they have a cold storage and hot wallet address. If your address always sends the funds to those addresses, it is very possible that the address belongs to Bitfinex.

This has several limitations however. If the user were to use a desktop wallet or an online wallet that does not send their fund to a known address that is controlled by them, it would be close to impossible to identify who the address belongs to.

I do not know it, but I know that bitcoin is not possible recognition by people who don't understand about the world of IT. for to know the address of an owner then we should work hard to use some method to track the address and it does require a little time. And also after getting the owner or know we must seek the truth of the data obtained from the tracking

[deisik]

Please elaborate how you plan to identify all these US transactions in real time?  I'm not in the US, so please list every single address I've ever been associated with so that I'm not charged more.  According to kiklo, it's really easy

I don't know really. And that's the reason why I started this thread and openly asked about that in the OP. To be honest, the technical impossibility of such discrimination (based on IP, or wallet address, or anything else) is the only true reason why the Chinese miners might not raise the fees on a selective basis as an act of revenge even if Trump lives up to his promises and unleashes a trade war with China. All other arguments like irrationality of such actions, coercion by the government, lack of hashing power, etc are weak and can only somewhat limit the fee riot if things get serious. On the other hand, if things do get serious after all, the miners from China could still indiscriminately raise the fees for all...

What consequences would such events have?

A transaction is not associated with an IP address. There is no way to know where a transaction originates, but the Chinese government could identify transactions not originated in China

I got it. But what about wallet addresses? Some wallet explorers show which service a given address belongs to. For example, my own address, which you can see in my profile page and send your funds to (lol), is correctly determined as part of a Coinbase wallet. If we look at the home page of walletexplorer.com, we will see a list of services like exchanges, pools, web wallets, casinos and so on, with pages of addresses that belong to these services. As far as I understand it, most such services (if not all) have api's that allow to check if a given address is theirs. Otherwise, how could these wallet explorers determine the service a given address belongs to? If they can find that out, why can't Chinese miners do essentially the same?

And I guess this is not the only way to check which country an incoming transaction comes from

Online wallets usually do not provide the list of address they control or they would be compromising on privacy. Wallet explorer uses the known address of the various services and use taint analysis to determine which addresses are likely connected to which. For example, Bitfinex is a well known exchange and they have a cold storage and hot wallet address. If your address always sends the funds to those addresses, it is very possible that the address belongs to Bitfinex

So why would the miners in China which are not quite happy with Trump's economic policies not use the same tools and demand higher fees for transactions from the wallets which are known to belong to the US based services? Further, I don't think either that the web wallets (or online wallets, in your speak) should necessarily provide the lists of addresses they own. But they could readily confirm or deny the ownership of a particular address, namely, the address which a Chinese miner suspects of belonging to that service...

As you can see, the devil is in the details, and he seems to be playing for the Chinese in this affair

This has several limitations however. If the user were to use a desktop wallet or an online wallet that does not send their fund to a known address that is controlled by them, it would be close to impossible to identify who the address belongs to.

The question is not about penalizing all American citizens without missing anyone. After all, they didn't vote for Trump unanimously, right? So individual users of desktop wallets are irrelevant, even if some of them voted for Trump and unreservedly support his intention to punish China

[chixka000]

Well, this is not our  lose at all. When do chinese want's to seperate their self from the decentralized essense of bitcoin then it is now up to them. Separating their self from the root source of bitcoin means an opportunity for other miners. I just can hardly describe this but i'm prettry sure with one thing that this is not our lose at all.

[kiklo]

Yes, I do know that describing fantasy scenarios is not a complicated task whatsoever.  Implementing them in a functional and practical manner is, though.  The sheer scale of the operation as you've described it is phenomenal.  It's like publishing a global phone book where the phone numbers change every minute.  If you know anything about how computers work, you're crazy if you think that's as easy to physically make and maintain as it is for you to imagine it.  And again, we'd see it coming a mile off and fork the network before they had a chance to implement it.  They can block or charge more fees for whatever transactions they like because there wouldn't be any.  The rest of the world would quite happily leave them to mine an empty chain that none of us would be transacting on.  

LOL,  

No harder than a Spam filter to block email.
You really don't know alot about how computers work.  

And this idea that the rest of the world will just take over the chain, proves you really have No Concept of what the 51% attack is capable of.
You should do some research instead of spreading falsehoods with no understanding of the true dangers.

By the way the 1st Shot from China is being fired in the upcoming trade wars and Trump is not even in Office for ~ 2 Months.
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/14/apple-iphones-could-be-hit-if-trump-imposes-a-45-percent-tariff-on-china-exports-beijing-warns.html

China fires its first warning shot, warning iPhone sales will suffer if Trump starts a trade war

 

FYI:
When it gets Nasty , don't expect BTC to be left out of the Tariff war , by either side.

[Juggy777]

I dont think this is really true. There's seem to be no logical connection. Maybe you could say there have been one or two incidents but I think you have blown it out of proportion. I feel Bitcoin market is to huge and both the super powers can Co exist. Maybe China is rolling out more btc, but let trump use btc and then you see or let America just accept it's use. Boom time. So relax, he shall make btc Americas new currency lol😂

[kiklo]

I dont think this is really true. There's seem to be no logical connection. Maybe you could say there have been one or two incidents but I think you have blown it out of proportion. I feel Bitcoin market is to huge and both the super powers can Co exist. Maybe China is rolling out more btc, but let trump use btc and then you see or let America just accept it's use. Boom time. So relax, he shall make btc Americas new currency lol😂

TRUMP's Goal is to Make America Great Again.
This Means the US $ will be Great Again.

US $ Goes Up, Price of BTC will go Down
as more people hold US$ because it will be the better investment.  

 

FYI:
BTC in its Current state is not able to fullfill the role of a Currency,
No one is going to just sit and wait an hour at a gas station or grocery store , for BTC to complete 3 transactions.
None of us have that much time to WASTE.

[deisik]

I dont think this is really true. There's seem to be no logical connection. Maybe you could say there have been one or two incidents but I think you have blown it out of proportion. I feel Bitcoin market is to huge and both the super powers can Co exist. Maybe China is rolling out more btc, but let trump use btc and then you see or let America just accept it's use. Boom time. So relax, he shall make btc Americas new currency lol

Trump is a loud mouth, this is beyond any doubt

So far he has been threatening to outlaw the Chinese exports to the US (well, not really outlaw but quite close to that). If Trump is going to return American jobs back to America as he promised, he should start first with the production of asics (or whatever equipment is used nowadays to mine Bitcoin) and then wrest the control over Bitcoin from the grasp of the Chinese miners. So, if he is going to outmine China and make Bitcoin great again, then more power to him

[Juggy777]

I dont think this is really true. There's seem to be no logical connection. Maybe you could say there have been one or two incidents but I think you have blown it out of proportion. I feel Bitcoin market is to huge and both the super powers can Co exist. Maybe China is rolling out more btc, but let trump use btc and then you see or let America just accept it's use. Boom time. So relax, he shall make btc Americas new currency lol

Trump is a loud mouth, this is beyond any doubt

So far he has been threatening to outlaw the Chinese exports to the US (well, not really outlaw but quite close to that). If Trump is going to return American jobs back to America as he promised, he should first start the production of asics (or whatever equipment is used nowadays to mine Bitcoin) and then wrest the control over Bitcoin from the grasp of the Chinese miners. So, if he is going to outmine China and make Bitcoin great again, then more power to him

Yes he has chewed a lot more than he could eat, no doubt about it. But call him whatever one wishes, there some things people can't deny, he's a pure business man not a war general, Russia and usa are suddenly BFF, trump has to have his eyes on btc for long and I trust him to rise the btc either directly or indirectly. So give him time and see he shall benefit btc

[kiklo]

I dont think this is really true. There's seem to be no logical connection. Maybe you could say there have been one or two incidents but I think you have blown it out of proportion. I feel Bitcoin market is to huge and both the super powers can Co exist. Maybe China is rolling out more btc, but let trump use btc and then you see or let America just accept it's use. Boom time. So relax, he shall make btc Americas new currency lol

Trump is a loud mouth, this is beyond any doubt

So far he has been threatening to outlaw the Chinese exports to the US (well, not really outlaw but quite close to that). If Trump is going to return American jobs back to America as he promised, he should first start the production of asics (or whatever equipment is used nowadays to mine Bitcoin) and then wrest the control over Bitcoin from the grasp of the Chinese miners. So, if he is going to outmine China and make Bitcoin great again, then more power to him

Actually the problem with that plan,

1.  ASICS are only a part of the issue, and they are almost worthless in a year or so
2.  Electricity would have to be subsidized like China does
3.  China just has to large of a lead to worry with BTC, easier to start a new one with a different algorithm

Imposing a Tariff on BTC , would earn money for the US without any expenditure on the US part.
All they have to do it Charge a Fee on any BTC when it is send to a US Exchange to be traded.
The US collects extra revenue no matter who controls BTC.

 

FYI:
If Trump is into Crypto, expect the US to release its own separately controlled Crypto to Replace BTC  

[QuestionAuthority]

If Bitcoin's design was so broken as to allow this then we shouldn't be using it anyway. That means it wasn't what we thought it was. That means Bitcoin was just an early attempt to anonymize purchases for darkweb drug sales and it failed. If you get trapped with too many btc you can't sell, just go to btc-e and exchange them for ltc or some other coin that you can sell. I personally think you're all worrying about nothing.

[deisik]

I dont think this is really true. There's seem to be no logical connection. Maybe you could say there have been one or two incidents but I think you have blown it out of proportion. I feel Bitcoin market is to huge and both the super powers can Co exist. Maybe China is rolling out more btc, but let trump use btc and then you see or let America just accept it's use. Boom time. So relax, he shall make btc Americas new currency lol

Trump is a loud mouth, this is beyond any doubt

So far he has been threatening to outlaw the Chinese exports to the US (well, not really outlaw but quite close to that). If Trump is going to return American jobs back to America as he promised, he should first start the production of asics (or whatever equipment is used nowadays to mine Bitcoin) and then wrest the control over Bitcoin from the grasp of the Chinese miners. So, if he is going to outmine China and make Bitcoin great again, then more power to him

Actually the problem with that plan,

1.  ASICS are only a part of the issue, and they are almost worthless in a year or so
2.  Electricity would have to be subsidized like China does
3.  China just has to large of a lead to worry with BTC, easier to start a new one with a different algorithm

There were rumors that Bitcoin had actually been created by one of the alphabet agencies (as I call them). As I said before, the hashing function that Bitcoin uses for generating new blocks has in fact been developed by the NSA. I don't claim that such rumors have any substance, but, on the other hand, the fruit never falls far from the tree, so to speak. If they, nevertheless, do have a trace of reality in them, then Bitcoin itself is one giant Trojan horse...

And whoever let it in (read China) may regret their hospitality in full later

Imposing a Tariff on BTC , would earn money for the US without any expenditure on the US part.
All they have to do it Charge a Fee on any BTC when it is send to a US Exchange to be traded.
The US collects extra revenue no matter who controls BTC

That makes sense since China is, in a sense, exporting bitcoins, therefore they are subject to Trump's tariffication as well

[freshman777]

This can save the day.

I've casually proposed this for Bitcoin in the past, but there's no way that something as experimental as this would ever be done in Bitcoin without at least a successful altcoin example, so it'd be cool to see it implemented in an altcoin, if any altcoin devs are interested. I have not rigorously examined this scheme for any flaw, so maybe it won't work well at all, but maybe it will.

One problem in Bitcoin is mining centralization. To solve this, I propose that the PoW be changed to the following:

 - If the block height mod 4 is 0, the PoW for that block is SHA-3 (or similar), an ASIC-friendly algorithm.
 - If the block height mod 4 is 1, the "PoW" for that block is "follow the satoshi", a form of proof-of-stake described in the Proof of Activity paper.
 - If the block height mod 4 is 2, the PoW for that block is cuckoo, a very ASIC-unfriendly algorithm.
 - If the block height mod 4 is 3, the "PoW" for that block is again "follow the satoshi".

Most likely:

 - The SHA-3 group will be controlled mainly by a handful of centralized ASIC miners as is the case with mining in Bitcoin today.
 - The cuckoo group will be controlled mainly by a handful of botnet operators, though ordinary users might also participate to some extent.
 - The PoS group will be controlled mainly by a handful of early adopters, though ordinary users might also participate to some extent.

However, importantly, all three groups need to cooperate in order to do anything majorly evil such as rewriting many past blocks. And since the three groups seem very likely to be independent, this significantly increases the decentralization and security of the system's mining.

The reason that PoS appears twice is that if you had a PoW step followed by a PoW step, the miners in the first PoW group would be incentivized to try redoing the block in their group whenever a block is solved, since otherwise they just have to wait. Adding a quick PoS block after each PoW step makes this less likely to succeed.

There should be two PoW difficulties: one based on steps 0 and 1, and one based on steps 2 and 3. PoW must be combined with PoS in the difficulty calculation because the nature of "follow the satoshi" leads to blocks often failing due to offline nodes in PoS, and this must be taken into account in the difficulty calculation.

"Follow the satoshi" is a particularly good PoS method because you can only participate if you run an actual full node. There's no way to cheat. As suggested by the Proof of Activity paper, participating in PoS using a particular address should require the participant to have the ability to spend at least a large percentage of the address's coins. The ability to risklessly delegate PoS authority leads to pooled PoS, an undesirable point of centralization.

Since PoS appears twice, it should have to redistribute at least half of its total block rewards to steps 0 and 2. It might also be desirable to change the reward distributions even more, since ASIC miners will probably be much more expensive than cuckoo miners, which will certainly be much more expensive than PoS miners. Redistribution of the mining reward can be done in a simple way by requiring that a block with x coins of total reward (subsidy + fees) must be accompanied by a transaction that spends the entire total reward, and this transaction must have a fee of at least y% * x. The next block will then include this transaction, taking its fees, and maybe again redistributing the fees if necessary.

[deisik]

This can save the day.

I've casually proposed this for Bitcoin in the past, but there's no way that something as experimental as this would ever be done in Bitcoin without at least a successful altcoin example, so it'd be cool to see it implemented in an altcoin, if any altcoin devs are interested. I have not rigorously examined this scheme for any flaw, so maybe it won't work well at all, but maybe it will.

One problem in Bitcoin is mining centralization. To solve this, I propose that the PoW be changed to the following:

~snipped~

If his proposal ever gets implemented

As theymos himself said, this is highly experimental and would require at least one altcoin implementation to test the scheme in practice (personally, I think that two independent implementations would do even better). What right now seems to be more important is the recognition of massive Bitcoin mining centralization, something that many posters flat-out disagree with here. If theymos is right, and he most certainly is, this basically means that Chinese miners do control Bitcoin, so my question set forth in the OP basically boils down to whether and to what degree the miners from China could trace Bitcoin transactions to the country of origin

When it gets Nasty, don't expect BTC to be left out of the Tariff war, by either side

Some might not have enough courage to accept that

[freshman777]

This can save the day.

I've casually proposed this for Bitcoin in the past, but there's no way that something as experimental as this would ever be done in Bitcoin without at least a successful altcoin example, so it'd be cool to see it implemented in an altcoin, if any altcoin devs are interested. I have not rigorously examined this scheme for any flaw, so maybe it won't work well at all, but maybe it will.

One problem in Bitcoin is mining centralization. To solve this, I propose that the PoW be changed to the following:

~snipped~

If his proposal ever gets implemented

As theymos himself said, this is highly experimental and would require at least one altcoin implementation to test the scheme in practice (personally, I think that two independent implementations would do even better). What right now seems to be more important is the recognition of massive Bitcoin mining centralization, something that many posters flat-out disagree with here. If theymos is right, and he most certainly is, this basically means that Chinese miners do control Bitcoin, so my question set forth in the OP basically boils down to whether and to what degree the miners from China could trace Bitcoin transactions to the country of origin

When it gets Nasty, don't expect BTC to be left out of the Tariff war, by either side

Some might not have enough courage to accept that

In emergency you suggest here there could no choice, someone will implement it. It will be up to the users to switch to the new client.
There is a Myriadcoin where they got 5 independent PoW mining algorithms, it has been running for a long time, so it's possible. Some altcoins have a hybrid PoW/PoS. It has been done.

[deisik]

This can save the day.

I've casually proposed this for Bitcoin in the past, but there's no way that something as experimental as this would ever be done in Bitcoin without at least a successful altcoin example, so it'd be cool to see it implemented in an altcoin, if any altcoin devs are interested. I have not rigorously examined this scheme for any flaw, so maybe it won't work well at all, but maybe it will.

One problem in Bitcoin is mining centralization. To solve this, I propose that the PoW be changed to the following:

~snipped~

If his proposal ever gets implemented

As theymos himself said, this is highly experimental and would require at least one altcoin implementation to test the scheme in practice (personally, I think that two independent implementations would do even better). What right now seems to be more important is the recognition of massive Bitcoin mining centralization, something that many posters flat-out disagree with here. If theymos is right, and he most certainly is, this basically means that Chinese miners do control Bitcoin, so my question set forth in the OP basically boils down to whether and to what degree the miners from China could trace Bitcoin transactions to the country of origin

When it gets Nasty, don't expect BTC to be left out of the Tariff war, by either side

Some might not have enough courage to accept that

In emergency you suggest here there could no choice, someone will implement it. It will be up to the users to switch to the new client.
There is a Myriadcoin where they got 5 independent PoW mining algorithms, it has been running for a long time, so it's possible. Some altcoins have a hybrid PoW/PoS. It has been done.

So Trump unleashing a tariff war with China may inadvertently help Bitcoin get rid of its dependence on centralized mining we came to nowadays. Okay then, but what would happen to Bitcoin price, or, rather, how low will it fall? Further, implementing what theymos suggests would invariably affect miners and their profitability, right? But since Bitcoin miners are mostly Chinese these days, they will have to fight not only with Trump and his economic policy but with theymos and his proposal as well...

This is not something that I thought of when opening this topic

[HateEU]

I reallly cant understand if that is true why they are doing that maybe dont like that they see how Donald Trump is in American head so they want push him.

[philipma1957]

How would they determine where the transaction originates?

Maybe, by web wallets from which the transaction is coming? I guess a lot of bitcoiners are using the Coinbase web wallet (I use it too, for the record) which is the US company, so the Chinese miners may just start rejecting all transactions that are coming from this wallet. I also suspect that a few other notable web wallets (Xapo anyone?) are also primarily the US companies...

There may also be American exchanges and mixers which could be heavily hit by this

All Exchanges keep track of your Name / Email Address  /IP Address , even if you use a fake name and email, using cross reference techniques your location can be determined by your IP alone.
All China has to do is get an approved list of BTC address from the Chinese Exchanges and just block the rest.
EASY.

 

Well let's stop disagreeing with you and say you are correct.

What would happen? A new coin or a switch to a different coin.

As a USA citizen I would find another coin to mine and if you see the growth of all coins such as Zec and eth the shift to another place to mine has happened as I type.

This is why alt coins have purpose to keep other paths to mining open.

I would love for China and Trump to fight it out.

Btw China has more then 4 trillion in USA bonds.  And we all know Trump has done a lot of renegotiation of debt over the years.

So he has a stick to poke China .   Should be fun to see it unfold.

[DimensionZ]

So what will happen if I use a fake Chinese name, e-mail address, residence address and a fake IP provided by a VPN? Will the Chinese still ban my sorry ass?   Beating the Chinese in the faking game that is actually awesome  

Dude I can pay someone to open an account at a Chinese exchange so my transactions will keep going through. There are a lot of hungry Chinese students looking for a quick buck every day.