What is the 'purpose' and 'nature' of Bitcoin? Some questions.

[HugoStone]

What does Bitcoin actually do that other monetary systems do not do? For example, how would you explain Bitcoin to the millions of M-pesa users in Tanzania and Kenya. In what way would switching to Bitcoin better their situation, bearing in mind: a) the fact that many people do not have regular or reliable access to electricity and charge old mobile phones (held together with duct tape) from a central source, b) the cost of 'mining' bitcoin, and c) the fact that these people (and billions like them) will never, ever be able to afford to 'mine' so much as a single bitcoin?

With the above in mind, is there any fundamental difference between a 'bitcoin miner' and a bank?

Below is a link to a mining simulation. In what way does Bitcoin differ from this? In what way do the virtual 'coins' that are 'mined' by 'miners' differ from the virtual 'materials' that are 'mined' in this simulation?

http://store.steampowered.com/app/321660/

Is Bitcoin just a mining simulation? If it is just a mining simulation then why do we pretend that it is 'real'? Why do we pretend that virtual 'coins' are scarce when they very obviously are not? Why do we pretend that they even have to be 'mined' or 'earned' in any conventional sense? For example, if I were to tell you that the system requirements for playing the above mining simulation are a warehouse full of ASIC processors and vast quantities of electricity then what would you say? Wouldn't you say "That's completely nuts! You're charging me to 'mine' something that doesn't even exist! I can do that on my own PC or device!"

Elsewhere on this board, I've been informed that 'trust' or 'confidence' can only be established via the "sanctity of the global ledger." Do you agree with this? Or is it the case that 'trust' and 'confidence' are values that are built over time by human interaction? Will someone 'trust' or have 'confidence' in Bitcoin simply by being presented with mathematical 'proof of trust' in the form of an algorithm or a few lines of source code? Or will they say "Actually, I'd prefer to use the system and determine for myself whether I think it's trustworthy or not"?

"Bitcoin merely replicates the defects of existing monetary systems in pseudo-decentralised form". Do you agree with this statement? If not, why?

HS

[krishna1]

i didnot got your question completly but whatever i understand according to that i will start explaning bitcoin to them by basic like its not an app or site or software its a money system buf m-pesa is not.even bill and notes are not money they are just some agrement which promis to pay money in exchange

[HugoStone]

i didnot got your question completly but whatever i understand according to that i will start explaning bitcoin to them by basic like its not an app or site or software its a money system buf m-pesa is not.even bill and notes are not money they are just some agrement which promis to pay money in exchange

Hi. In what sense is Bitcoin or M-Pesa not software? Can you use Bitcoin or M-Pesa without software? At what point does software become a 'monetary system'? The mining simulation I referred to is also software, so is that also a 'monetary system'? If it is not currently a 'monetary system' then could it become a 'monetary system' simply by adding code to allow users of the software to exchange the virtual 'ores' they mine for themselves?

HS

[kiklo]

Nice to see you open your own thread to seed with your rants.  

You want to argue the state of Reality itself verses the Illusion.

Instead of pestering everyone with questions, that you don't believe their answers.

Why not go ahead and tell them your master plan of how everything should work, from an unstable mind's point of view.
I am sure they will be riveted.

 

FYI:
Since you mentioned Wei Dai,
social costs of intelligence:
Why good memory could be bad for you: game theoretic analysis of a monopolist with memory.
(if you imply a more spiritual outlook to his analyses , Memory is not the problem, Lack of Forgiveness is the problem.)

Why cleverness could be bad for you: a game where the smarter players lose.
(if you imply a more spiritual outlook to this analyses , Being Smart is not the problem, Lack of Kindness is the problem.)

So I take that as Be Kind & Be Forgiving. 

[odolvlobo]

What does Bitcoin actually do that other monetary systems do not do? For example, how would you explain Bitcoin to the millions of M-pesa users in Tanzania and Kenya.

Bitcoin is like M-pesa except there is no single company that controls it. The people that use m-pesa must trust that Vodaphone won't go bankrupt or devalue their money.

In what way would switching to Bitcoin better their situation, bearing in mind: a) the fact that many people do not have regular or reliable access to electricity and charge old mobile phones (held together with duct tape) from a central source, b) the cost of 'mining' bitcoin, and c) the fact that these people (and billions like them) will never, ever be able to afford to 'mine' so much as a single bitcoin?

Owning or using bitcoins does not require mining. Anyone that can use M-pesa can also use Bitcoin.

With the above in mind, is there any fundamental difference between a 'bitcoin miner' and a bank?

A bitcoin miner does not hold, loan, or transfer money. It validates transactions.

Below is a link to a mining simulation. In what way does Bitcoin differ from this? In what way do the virtual 'coins' that are 'mined' by 'miners' differ from the virtual 'materials' that are 'mined' in this simulation?
http://store.steampowered.com/app/321660/
Is Bitcoin just a mining simulation? If it is just a mining simulation then why do we pretend that it is 'real'?
Why do we pretend that virtual 'coins' are scarce when they very obviously are not? Why do we pretend that they even have to be 'mined' or 'earned' in any conventional sense? For example, if I were to tell you that the system requirements for playing the above mining simulation are a warehouse full of ASIC processors and vast quantities of electricity then what would you say? Wouldn't you say "That's completely nuts! You're charging me to 'mine' something that doesn't even exist! I can do that on my own PC or device!"

"Mining" is just a metaphor. There is no actual mining of bitcoins.

Elsewhere on this board, I've been informed that 'trust' or 'confidence' can only be established via the "sanctity of the global ledger." Do you agree with this? Or is it the case that 'trust' and 'confidence' are values that are built over time by human interaction? Will someone 'trust' or have 'confidence' in Bitcoin simply by being presented with mathematical 'proof of trust' in the form of an algorithm or a few lines of source code? Or will they say "Actually, I'd prefer to use the system and determine for myself whether I think it's trustworthy or not"?

Bitcoin is 100% transparent. You can be sure that transactions have not been manipulated or forged because the all of the information is publicly verifiable.

"Bitcoin merely replicates the defects of existing monetary systems in pseudo-decentralised form". Do you agree with this statement? If not, why?

No monetary system can be without flaws because value is subjective. Furthermore, money isn't value, it just represents value.

[Kprawn]

M-Pesa users actually already have a advantage over other people, in that they already grasp the concept of a digital currency. M-Pesa

however is centralized and this is where Bitcoin is much better. When the mobile service providers are forced by governments to act in a

specific way, they have no choice in the matter.. They operate in these countries with the permission from these local governments... So they

must play by their rules. If you are a "pure" Bitcoin user, that does not use third parties, then you have 100% control over your money. 

The difference between banks and miners are that Miners are not a individual entity... but a collective global action from a group of

independent people. 

[BitcoinBarrel]

For one thing Bitcoin as a commodity is accepted and traded all over the world. You do not NEED a computer, internet or electricity to use Bitcoin. You can have a "Paper Wallet" that is simply a Private Key written down or stored like a password and sell the Private Key if you need to. There are people that will gladly pay you cash for the Private Key of a Bitcoin Address with any funds on.

Yes, you would need a computer to "Spend" the Bitcoins (send the Bitcoins to a new address) but as long as you have the Private Key you can just sell/trade that.

[HugoStone]

Nice to see you open your own thread to seed with your rants.  
You want to argue the state of Reality itself verses the Illusion. Instead of pestering everyone with questions, that you don't believe their answers. Why not go ahead and tell them your master plan of how everything should work, from an unstable mind's point of view. I am sure they will be riveted.

Just a carry over from another thread. You still have nothing to offer in terms of a critique of my proposal, which is freely available for anyone to read. You've yet to address so much as a single line of it. Just more insults, more assumptions about what you think people want to hear. If you refer back to the other thread you allude to then there's a familiar pattern isn't there? I ask a question and the response is an insult. I ask to be provided with something of substance in support of an assertion and the response is an insult. I would of thought it was obvious by now that I refuse to be 'baited' by insults and respond with the same.

Since you mentioned Wei Dai,

I have not mentioned Wei Dai in the above or the other thread you allude to.

So I take that as Be Kind & Be Forgiving. 

Yes, be kind and be for (i.e. in favour of) giving, rather than dishing out illusory 'pay back'.

HS

[Sir Alpha_goy]

The purpose of Bitcoin is to upset or turn banking upside down.

A disruptive technology.

The nature of it is decided by it's users.

A neutral entity that does not believe in right or wrong in order to evade the effects of karma.

It could free the world or enslave the world because it does not care.

It only desires that the mere idea infests as many hosts as it possibly can.

Then and only then can it be idolized so that it may rule over all.

Any other questions?

[Sir Alpha_goy]

The purpose of Bitcoin is to upset or turn banking upside down.

A disruptive technology.

The nature of it is decided by it's users.

A neutral entity that does not believe in right or wrong in order to evade the effects of karma.

It could free the world or enslave the world because it does not care.

It only desires that the mere idea infests as many hosts as it possibly can.

Then and only then can it be idolized so that it may rule over all.

Any other questions?

Currency comes in the form of $.

The update of it to appear as a BTC makes no difference.

Wealth and power remain in charge of the illusion that you allowed into your house.

[Xester]

The purpose of Bitcoin is to upset or turn banking upside down.

A disruptive technology.

The nature of it is decided by it's users.

A neutral entity that does not believe in right or wrong in order to evade the effects of karma.

It could free the world or enslave the world because it does not care.

It only desires that the mere idea infests as many hosts as it possibly can.

Then and only then can it be idolized so that it may rule over all.

Any other questions?

Currency comes in the form of $.

The update of it to appear as a BTC makes no difference.

Wealth and power remain in charge of the illusion that you allowed into your house.

The main purpose of bitcoins was not to abolish fiat, but to show the world that digital money is possible to rise. Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency and a payment system. The system is peer-to-peer and transactions take place between users directly, without an intermediary. I beleive Bitcoins are created as a reward in a competition in which users offer their computing power to verify and record bitcoin transactions into the blockchain.

[HugoStone]

Owning or using bitcoins does not require mining. Anyone that can use M-pesa can also use Bitcoin.

The question was in what way would switching to Bitcoin better their situation. What does Bitcoin offer them that M-pesa doesn't? I've travelled extensively in both countries and I can assure you that they will want to know how Bitcoin helps them feed their children and stops them dying of malaria. What is the incentive for making the switch? The same question can be asked the world over. Look at what happened in 2008. We're still living with that, yet there has not been a mass transition from fiat to Bitcoin. Could it be that this mass transition has not happened (and will never happen) because Bitcoin has nothing to offer people in terms of real change?

A bitcoin miner does not hold, loan, or transfer money. It validates transactions.

I should have added, in the sense that bitcoin are created by the process of 'mining' bitcoin. In the Bitcoin universe, the process of bitcoin 'mining' is analogous to the function of central banks and private banks re: the creation of 'bank credit money'.

"Mining" is just a metaphor. There is no actual mining of bitcoins.

Of course, because Bitcoin is 'virtual' money. It is not merely a metaphor though, because Bitcoin 'miners' have to invest CPU cycles and electricity in order to find a random nonce and be rewarded with new bitcoin. They are in this sense 'prospecting' for bitcoin. So in what way is Bitcoin not a mining simulation?

Bitcoin is 100% transparent. You can be sure that transactions have not been manipulated or forged because the all of the information is publicly verifiable.

I could say the same thing about the transactions that appear in my online bank account. If a fraudulent transaction appears then it appears because someone else has obtained my details, in the same way someone else can obtain a private key if it's not properly secured. So, do you think that 'trust' can only be established via the "sanctity of the global ledger"? Can trust be established by decree or with a few lines of code? If I were to tell you that someone is trustworthy and present you with a few lines of code as 'proof of trust' then would you take my word for it? Or would you want to interact with that person and draw your own conclusion?

No monetary system can be without flaws because value is subjective. Furthermore, money isn't value, it just represents value.

I wasn't asking if Bitcoin is flawless but whether Bitcoin replicates existing flaws. See my reply above re: M-pesa There are billions of people on this planet surviving on $10 per day or less - 71% of the world population according to one study. What is the 'purpose' of Bitcoin in relation to these people? Does it do anything whatsoever to address their situation? If not, then is Bitcoin any different than fiat?

HS

[HugoStone]

The main purpose of bitcoins was not to abolish fiat, but to show the world that digital money is possible to rise. Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency and a payment system. The system is peer-to-peer and transactions take place between users directly, without an intermediary. I beleive Bitcoins are created as a reward in a competition in which users offer their computing power to verify and record bitcoin transactions into the blockchain.

Digital money has existed for decades though. It has already 'risen'. Just take a look at your bank account or complete a credit or debit card transaction. They too are examples of digital money. The vast majority of 'money' currently in existence is digital money, not paper and coin. Bitcoin is an alternative form of digital money, but it is not a real alternative. In practical terms, it does not 'do' anything existing currencies don't already do. It does not actually address 'real-world' problems.

HS

[HugoStone]

M-Pesa users actually already have a advantage over other people, in that they already grasp the concept of a digital currency. M-Pesa

This makes no difference though. OK, imagine you're a Tanzanian and, like most Tanzanians, you live in a small village and in all likelihood do not have your own electricity supply. You only have a battered old phone, which you charge at a central source such as the village shop, and you use the M-pesa system. Will you ever be able to afford to mine bitcoin? No. The only thing you can do is convert Tanzanian shillings into bitcoin. But why would you? What's the advantage? Will the process of converting shillings to bitcoin make you richer? Will it put food in your mouth? Will it help you pay for the anti-malaria drugs you can't afford? I was in Mombasa a few years ago and saw a man get kicked out into the street and left to die because he couldn't afford medical treatment. He literally died on the pavement. What difference would Bitcoin make?

When the mobile service providers are forced by governments to act in a
specific way, they have no choice in the matter.. They operate in these countries with the permission from these local governments... So they must play by their rules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country

The difference between banks and miners are that Miners are not a individual entity... but a collective global action from a group of independent people. 

And yet the way Bitcoin operates means that bitcoin mining is just a dream to most people. Like existing monetary systems, it creates two classes: those who generate the currency and those who can do nothing more than use it as a medium of exchange. Ever heard of a bitcoin loan?

http://www.coindesk.com/judge-rules-in-peer-to-peer-bitcoin-lending-lawsuit/

HS

[odolvlobo]

Owning or using bitcoins does not require mining. Anyone that can use M-pesa can also use Bitcoin.

The question was in what way would switching to Bitcoin better their situation. What does Bitcoin offer them that M-pesa doesn't? I've travelled extensively in both countries and I can assure you that they will want to know how Bitcoin helps them feed their children and stops them dying of malaria. What is the incentive for making the switch? The same question can be asked the world over. Look at what happened in 2008. We're still living with that, yet there has not been a mass transition from fiat to Bitcoin. Could it be that this mass transition has not happened (and will never happen) because Bitcoin has nothing to offer people in terms of real change?

Obviously, you know the answer to your own question. You know exactly how Bitcoin differs from M-pesa. You are implying that Bitcoin is no better. Whatever. It is different. Bitcoin doesn't cure malaria. That doesn't mean that it has no benefits.

A bitcoin miner does not hold, loan, or transfer money. It validates transactions.

I should have added, in the sense that bitcoin are created by the process of 'mining' bitcoin. In the Bitcoin universe, the process of bitcoin 'mining' is analogous to the function of central banks and private banks re: the creation of 'bank credit money'.

Money creation is just a side-effect of mining, and every four years it becomes less significant than before.

"Mining" is just a metaphor. There is no actual mining of bitcoins.

Of course, because Bitcoin is 'virtual' money. It is not merely a metaphor though, because Bitcoin 'miners' have to invest CPU cycles and electricity in order to find a random nonce and be rewarded with new bitcoin. They are in this sense 'prospecting' for bitcoin. So in what way is Bitcoin not a mining simulation?

The economics of Bitcoin mining are very different from the economics of mining of resources such and gold or oil or whatever.

Bitcoin is 100% transparent. You can be sure that transactions have not been manipulated or forged because the all of the information is publicly verifiable.

I could say the same thing about the transactions that appear in my online bank account. If a fraudulent transaction appears then it appears because someone else has obtained my details, in the same way someone else can obtain a private key if it's not properly secured. So, do you think that 'trust' can only be established via the "sanctity of the global ledger"? Can trust be established by decree or with a few lines of code? If I were to tell you that someone is trustworthy and present you with a few lines of code as 'proof of trust' then would you take my word for it? Or would you want to interact with that person and draw your own conclusion?

You have a balance in an account at a bank, but you don't know if that balance actually exists or not. Bitcoin is verifiable by anyone. It is not the code that provide the proof. It is the data in the ledger

No monetary system can be without flaws because value is subjective. Furthermore, money isn't value, it just represents value.

I wasn't asking if Bitcoin is flawless but whether Bitcoin replicates existing flaws. See my reply above re: M-pesa There are billions of people on this planet surviving on $10 per day or less - 71% of the world population according to one study. What is the 'purpose' of Bitcoin in relation to these people? Does it do anything whatsoever to address their situation? If not, then is Bitcoin any different than fiat?

You are implying that Bitcoin is the same as fiat because it supposedly doesn't provide a solution to a particular group of people. I would like to see the logic behind that.

[croutonhexagon]

It was purposely developed by Satoshi for online transaction which had eradicated boring and long process of banking system and had made ease for online transaction. And for nature of bitcoin I would say that it is completely deficient form of money and it's probably first of its kind.

[jacafbiz]

i think there is need for a basic course for anyone that wants to present Bitcoin to others. The question is not clear, but I know M-pesa it just  an exchange site where you can buy and sell your Bitcoin

[Pursuer]

What does Bitcoin actually do that other monetary systems do not do? For example, how would you explain Bitcoin to the millions of M-pesa users in Tanzania and Kenya. In what way would switching to Bitcoin better their situation, bearing in mind: a) the fact that many people do not have regular or reliable access to electricity and charge old mobile phones (held together with duct tape) from a central source,

you keep naming these third world places like Tanzanian,... but you forget that bitcoin is a new technology and like any other new technology it takes time for it to reach everywhere. specially third world countries. it is the same as electricity, cars, water in pipeline instead of taking it from the well each day

b) the cost of 'mining' bitcoin, and c) the fact that these people (and billions like them) will never, ever be able to afford to 'mine' so much as a single bitcoin?

mining has nothing to do with using bitcoin. we are all using bitcoin and none of us are mining it and some of us doesn't even know what mining is or how it works.

With the above in mind, is there any fundamental difference between a 'bitcoin miner' and a bank?

a bank is holding your money
a bank can decide who they want to give services to and who they don't
a bank needs your identification to give those services to you.

a bitcoin miner is only seeing an anonymous txid and has no way of making sure where it came from. and as long as it is standard with right amount of fees it treats all txids the same way.

-link to a game-

if you want to find out more about mining you can read so many available resources about it. just google it and you will find many good ones.

-rant-

everything about you reminds of this: https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoinobituaries/

[bitbunnny]

What is Bitcoin exactly is the question of regulation. In some countries who have regulated it's placed on.category of goods, property or means of payments.
The first idea was to create a free decentralized digital currency that isn't under influence of governments, central monetary system and banks. But it stil takes time to get full established.

[Victorycoin]

The first major difference is that your M-pesa, though a mobile money transfer service, is tied to Tanzania and Kenya laws and the central banks of both countries can do and undo, but bitcoin is a global currency with no one government controlling it. If implemented, your people in  these two regions can through M-pesa buy bitcoin with the local currency or exchange bitcoin to same and that is if they believe in bitcoin in the first place. Some people are so attached to the ways their fore fathers were doing things and are unwilling to see even with their eyes open. We have to move on, some people have to catch up, someday when they finally wake up.