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Author Topic: The current nature of bitcoin is becomming a problem  (Read 3984 times)
blacksmithtm
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April 08, 2013, 11:45:53 AM
 #1

The deflation is becomming a problem due to the current nature of bitcoin. We were supposed to add decimal places, but this just doesent work. Its awkard and confusing, and there really is a need to act sooner rather than later, before the community adopts the proposed milibitcoin and microbitcoin proposals of denominations..

Im afraid there is a need to reschool us in the way we think about bitcoin. First of all, the saying there is 21 million bitcoins total is both true and false. Because these bitcoins can be divisible down to eight decimal places. This means, there is in fact 2.1 quadrillion bitcoins in total. Which is great. More than enough to go around. Or rather more than enough for a sensible pricing mechanism. More on that later.

If we want to help ourselves, and the adoption of bitcoin, we should no longer think that the smallest atomic amount is 0,00000001 but rather 1! On the other hand we should no longer be thinking than 1 BTC = 1 Bitcoin.......... It should be = 100,000,000 Bitcoin. Because that is going to change everything. First of all no currency needs 8 decimal places. It would make pricing, comparing prices and so on a pain. The more decimal places the more clutter there is going to be. Think 0,001 0,0000232 1,0000323 and so on.... Also in my opinion it does not make much sense, if one wants a currency to be widely adopted, to NOT imitate the currencies that are currently in use. These currencies that are currently in use today only have 2 decimal places. And it works great. I never said to myself, i wish the dollar had more decimal places.

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April 08, 2013, 11:57:45 AM
 #2

Why call 1 Bitcoin .. and 0.00000001  1 Bitcoin . . whats wrong with 1 Satosih, or one MiliBit ?


I love bitcoins - everything about them.
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April 08, 2013, 11:58:14 AM
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we gotta convert more people to become a believer!
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April 08, 2013, 11:59:21 AM
 #4

Actually dollars do have 3 decimal places - check out petrol prices and taxes.
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April 08, 2013, 11:59:51 AM
 #5

Discussed for years
Short answer: no

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April 08, 2013, 12:01:08 PM
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I some what agree. I'm not too fussed at this moment though ^_^
blacksmithtm
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April 08, 2013, 12:01:33 PM
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1 BTC should be = 100.000.000 Bitcoin. What i mean by this, is we should start calling the smallest amount of bitcoin BITCOIN. Comparatively we dont call an atomic unit of gold, schwarzeniggel, we call it gold. No matter what quantity it is. However, if we have more gold, we denominate it in Kilos or whatever depending on which area of the world you are in.

Right. So the smallest atomic amount of bitcoin should be called bitcoin, just as the smallest atomic amount of gold is called gold and the smallest amount of silver is called silver. Right. So are we gonna have wallets displaying how many atomic amounts of bitcoin we have? YES, it is simple without being misleading. One problem arises tho, because even the poorest bitcoin owners will have millions of "atomic" bitcoin atm. So we need to start denominating it, just like we denominate gold..

BTC could still be the official unit being traded on the exchanges, however its probably going to change in the future as one BTC has the potential of being worth thousands of not hundreds of thousands of dollars. In that case it wont make much sense anymore for the exchanges to measure their prices in BTC as people would be trading 0,000003 and you end up with alot of clutter. So.. The new denominations could probably draw inspiration from the filesystem. The file system automatically cleans up the number when its displaying file sizes. This is the kilobyte, megabyte, gigabyte system its quite easy to understand.

Bitcoin should adopt this. So if we already are thinking in bitcoin the proper way (The smallest amount of bitcoin should be called bitcoin!) then it would be easy to adopt a kilo, mega, giga denomination system. Lets say i am the owner of 1 BTC today. This is actually 100.000.000 atomic units of bitcoin. So in the kilo/mega system, that would be 100.000 Kilobitcoin or 100 Megabitcoin. Or even 0,1 Gigabitcoin. Hurray.
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April 08, 2013, 12:06:03 PM
 #8

There's so much to be OCD about in Bitcoin, isn't there?
blacksmithtm
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April 08, 2013, 12:10:12 PM
 #9

idk if theres anything OCD about it. I personally find it problematic that the smallest amount of bitcoin is called satoshi, and that we will eventually be using micro bitcoins and milibitcoins if we dont change the way we look at bitcoin.
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April 08, 2013, 12:15:09 PM
 #10

Deflation isn't going to become a problem, it's actually the best feature Bitcoin has. If Bitcoin was inflationary by design, there would always be a risk that people would prefer a deflationary altcoin.

blacksmithtm
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April 08, 2013, 12:16:50 PM
 #11

Deflation isn't going to become a problem, it's actually the best feature Bitcoin has. If Bitcoin was inflationary by design, there would always be a risk that people would prefer a deflationary altcoin.

Please read the topic


Why call 1 Bitcoin .. and 0.00000001  1 Bitcoin . . whats wrong with 1 Satosih, or one MiliBit ?



The problem with that approach is bitcoin is deflationary in nature. This means one day, lets say 2018 we will be using Microbitcoin, and then as it deflates even more we will be using Satoshis. Each switch is going to confuse people and Microbitcoin sounds dull, so does milibitcoin. And satoshi just seems way to random. The right way to approach it would be to call the smallest atomic amount for bitcoin, and then have denominations that contain various amounts of those. For example the mega bitcoin, which has 1.000.000 atomic units of bitcoin
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April 08, 2013, 12:43:45 PM
 #12

First of all
Converting to milibitcoin would make a mBTC 0.18 USD right now. The growth towards the hundreds is great publicity. When we come close to 1000USD, we can think about mBTC, because our goal will be 1 USD for an mBTC.

Second
Imagine we switch to mBTC, a price drop from 0.18 USD to 0.17 USD would seem less interesting, however, the effect it has on people their Bitcoin fortune will be devastating.

Third
We are just getting journalists to note Bitcoin, this is not the moment to change everything. Media have the obligation towards us to be correct, just as we have an obligation to keep it as simple as possible for them to be correct .

When everything is easing down again, we can make a fuss about the notation again. Doing everything at once on the internet has been tried before, just around the turn of the millennium, maybe you've heard of it.

Quiet down, give Bitcoin a chance. Names don't mean anything as long as the system works.

.
blacksmithtm
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April 08, 2013, 12:50:25 PM
 #13

Noone can change everything anyway. It will be up to the individual wallet services, exchanges etc. to denominate in a better way then the rest of the market will follow.
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April 08, 2013, 12:50:38 PM
 #14

Actually I think it's becoming our savior.

When the price stabilizes BTC will be used like currency. At the moment it's riding it's little rocket to the plateau. Don't worry, we can all pay our taxes and shop for groceries with milliBTC too. :-)

EDIT: you can work in milliBTC if you want to already. No one is stoping you. It's not like a protocol change is necessary to make a difference.

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blacksmithtm
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April 08, 2013, 01:16:58 PM
 #15

do people even bother to read posts anymore or they just read the title and reply?

i changed topic title now..
lassdas
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April 08, 2013, 02:02:43 PM
 #16

First of all, the saying there is 21 million bitcoins total is both true and false. Because these bitcoins can be divisible down to eight decimal places. This means, there is in fact 2.1 quadrillion bitcoins in total.
That's just plain wrong.
The fact that there are 2.1quadrillion smallest units doesn't change the fact that there's only 21million bitcoins.
Those 2.1quadrillion smallest units already have a name, we call them satoshis (which is not a random name), almost any Bitcoin-User (I guess more than 95%) is familiar with that, so there's no need to rename them.

And for the other centi-, milli-, micro-, whatever-bitcoins people will probably come up with a nice name too.

People don't seem to have a problem with pennies and nickels and dimes and bucks and benjamins and whatnot, why do you expect them to have such kind of problems when it comes to Bitcoin?

IMO you're trying to solve a problem while there is none (reminds me of some software companies, "It's working? We'll fix that.")

blacksmithtm
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April 08, 2013, 02:28:43 PM
 #17

The teleological premise of the original post is not universally held.  The phrase "...is a problem" is a normative statement, which is just a fancy way of saying 'opinion'.  It implies that there is some goal toward which we are striving, and that this goal is good.

Bitcoin is a protocol; it is not a way of life.  Losing sight of this fact got some people into a world of trouble last time we saw an explosion of moneypunkery two decades ago.

Although I look forward to the day when the value of Bitcoin finds its level, so that we can get down to the real business of doing real business, I don't grouse about the prospect of having to start filing FATCA forms with my income tax returns, should my political masters demand that of me, and should the USD price of Bitcoin stay on its current track.

One might want Bitcoin to be useful for microspending that clears instantaneously, and I might want a pony.  One's desire is not the same thing as an ontological necessity.

Maybe this is not a problem, per se, but a transition.

Bitcoin used to look like a fraction of a penny.  It now looks as though it could end up more like a bar of gold, the highest and best use of which is locking it away in a vault.  Bitcoin is divisible, gold bars are divisible.  Bitcoin is ill-suited to hand-to-hand retail transactions, gold is ill-suited to hand-to-hand retail transactions.  Both have value to enough market participants for us to find them interesting.

Whether one sees a problem here is a matter of personal preference.

or maybe you have just misunderstood the post. there is in fact a problem. You know when people use to think the sun revolved around the earth? Astromony, and the mathematical equations got out of hand and everything just seemed like a mess. Then it was suggested that the earth revolves around the sun and VIOLA everything suddenly started to make sense, and the proper equations and what not could be resolved....

What does this have to do with bitcoin then? Well atm. the founder decided on a unit that seems very random, yet others built new denominations on top of that. But because bitcoin is deflationary the new denominatons had to be fractions of this original unit. Of course im talking about the BTC which is called Bitcoin atm. The equivalent of believing the sun revolves around the earth. But, the smallest atomic amount of bitcoin should be called bitcoin and not satoshi because it would change everything.

we would suddenly be able to come up with better denominations that does not involve crazy fractions with up to 8 decimal places that only really serves to clutter and confuse. So, if we started denominating wallets in atomic units of bitcoin AND in fact called this unit BITCOIN then the proper denominations would reveal themselves. A person having 100.000.000 atomic units of bitcoin would also have 100 Megabitcoin. Do you see how intuitive it is, compared to working down from BTC and having the denominations become fractions, calling them very bad names like milibitcoin and microbitcoin and even satoshi. The reason i believe they are bad names is because first of all milibitcoin and microbitcoin does not sound very empowering, and you have to remember that bitcoin is deflationary, so eventually most prices will be in microbitcoin or milibitcoin and this just doesent make sense imo. the worst thing is if the name on the atomic bitcoin is not changed, then most prices would eventually be in satoshis. Imagine buying soda, in the grocery store, that would be 3 satoshis lets say. Then you want to purchase a car and that will be 100 microbitcoin. It just doesent relate to each other. Thats why the smallest atomic amount of bitcoin should be called BITCOIN, and then the denominations should build on this, so that in the future small items will be priced in you gussed it, bitcoin, and larger more expensive items priced in Kilobitcoin (K฿), or even Megabitcoin(M฿) etc.
Zomdifros
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April 08, 2013, 02:42:50 PM
 #18

Deflation isn't going to become a problem, it's actually the best feature Bitcoin has. If Bitcoin was inflationary by design, there would always be a risk that people would prefer a deflationary altcoin.

Please read the topic


Sorry, you're right.

I have to agree with you that is is indeed somewhat awkward to ask 0.01 BTC for a cup of coffee, but we might be years away before the Bitcoin exchange rates have stabilized enough for people offering products priced in BTC on a wide scale. For now it's easier to use USD or EUR.

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April 08, 2013, 02:48:53 PM
 #19

the smallest atomic amount of bitcoin should be called bitcoin and not satoshi because it would change everything.
It should be? Says who?
And what would it change?

You say people can't handle milli- and micro- and the solution that you come up with is that they should use Kilo- and Mega- instead.

What's the difference?
That's not gonna change everything, it's the same thing turned upside-down.
blacksmithtm
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April 08, 2013, 02:54:12 PM
 #20

the smallest atomic amount of bitcoin should be called bitcoin and not satoshi because it would change everything.
It should be? Says who?
And what would it change?

You say people can't handle milli- and micro- and the solution that you come up with is that they should use Kilo- and Mega- instead.

What's the difference?
That's not gonna change everything, it's the same thing turned upside-down.


omfg. did you read the rest of the post or just stop at that one sentence? i think i put some pretty good reasons why
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