Bitcoin can you stand alone?

[Sir Alpha_goy]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

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[DannyHamilton]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

Bitcoin does not price itself in fiat.

Services offer a place where people who have fiat and want bitcoin can find people who have bitcoin and want fiat.  These individuals establish an exchange rate that they are able to agree on and then they exchange what they have for what they want.

Others then report this exchange rate so everyone knows what the value of bitcoin is relative to anything they want to acquire or get rid of.  For example, I now know that 1 BTC is worth approximately 188 McDonald's Big Macs.

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

EVERYTHING that can be priced can ALWAYS be priced in terms of fiat for so long as fiat exists.  Just like EVERYTHING that can be priced can ALWAYS be priced in terms of ketchup packets for so long as ketchup packets exist.  Pricing something simply means establishing an exchange rate between two items (or services).

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

It will be a very long time for the entire world to give up on a fiat money system.  This is true regardless of how successful bitcoin becomes.  However, if bitcoin becomes successful enough, many will have an option to leave the fiat system behind if they want to.

[DannyHamilton]

Things that the current bitcoin ecosystem depends on to survive right now:

Nodes
Miners

True.  Since these things DEFINE bitcoin, it does depend on their existence.  To say otherwise would be to say that the existence of bitcoin does not require the existence of bitcoin.

Exchanges
Fiat
Internet

While those three things are not required at all for the continued existence of bitcoin, they are helpful.  They make bitcoin mush easier to use and make it much easier for others to start using bitcoin if they want to.

Noobs
Bitcoin news outlets
Alt coins
Promotions

Bitcoin doesn't need any of those things, and in many cases some of those things are actually WORSE for bitcoin than if they didn't exist.

Could it ever be independent and self sufficient?

That depends on what you mean by "independent and self sufficient".  If you mean can it exist without the things that define it (nodes and miners), then no it can't ever be "independent and self sufficient".  If you mean can it exist without any mandated participation, then it is already "independent and self sufficient".

Sometimes it just seems like a black hole that will forever need more and more resources to survive.

Yes.  Bitcoin (or any other money system) is simply a method of tracking how much of one thing you can exchange for another thing.  Since we humans have a tendency to use resources to continue our existence, and bitcoin (and other money systems) simply keep track of the exchange of things such as those resources, all money systems will always be "a black hole that will forever need more and more resources to survive".

[larryfromjapan]

It would have to be alot less volatile to do that. Thats why merchants and Bitpay update every 15 minutes.

[calkob]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

Yeah i would have to agree, it is very hard to stop pricing in a currency that you have used your whole life.  it might actually be easier for those in the so called third world to do it as they have been using many currencies for many years.

[MingLee]

If you want to start pricing things in Bitcoin, find a way to get Bitcoin to be the currency used by the entire economic supply chain.

Once you get farmers, utilities suppliers, essentially everyone using Bitcoin, then there will be a way to price things in Bitcoin alone. Until that happens, it's impossible because there always has to be an exchange into fiat. Get rid of the fiat, in comes the pricing you desire.

Not hard to understand.

[Holliday]

Huh? I don't understand. Isn't a bitcoin worth 148.8 McDonald's BigMacs? I price everything in BigMacs.

[QuestionAuthority]

Huh? I don't understand. Isn't a bitcoin worth 148.8 McDonald's BigMacs? I price everything in BigMacs.

BigMacs? That's a weird thing to price Bitcoin on. I price Bitcoin in chicken eggs. To me, one Bitcoin is worth one chicken egg and I will never give more than one chicken egg for it, I don't care what those forex traders say. LOL

[yayayo]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

Yes, no problem. I already changed my perspective. I consider fiat a vastly inferior form of money. A "gain" in bitcoin fiat "value" is in fact a decrease of fiat purchasing power compared to Bitcoin.

I will never exchange Bitcoin for fiat trash money. I never did. It just makes no sense.

For Bitcoin to be generally perceived as a reference for value, we need a closed-loop Bitcoin economy. That will take some time. Nowadays fiat money is moving into Bitcoin relatively slowly, however the stream will increase significantly once we see more inflation. The central banks are doing the best possible advertising for Bitcoin. Their actions will produce hyperinflation and destroy the acceptance of fiat money. Bitcoin will thrive because of these developments.

ya.ya.yo!

[Wind_FURY]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

Does it really need to stop pricing itself in fiat? The current system is fine by me to be honest and I like the idea that I have a choice between fiat and Bitcoin. To all the people who are going for the "dream" of a world where there is only Bitcoin need to wake up. Bitcoin is only good when there is fiat and strict monetary regulations. Bitcoin is the cancer that every government and financial regulatory body has to live with. If I had my way, I would make more monetary regulations so that Bitcoin's use will be much more effective in circumventing laws. Do you know how hard it is to buy drugs online without Bitcoin?

[franky1]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

imagine bitcoin priced against not fiat.. but "cost of living index" (yes its a real metric, go research it)
EG
no matter where in the world you are, you can say i want enough bitcoin that values at around 10 loaves of bread.
no need for someone in africa to need to convert m-pesa to a dollar value and then look up the bitcoin price.

they just use the "cost of living index" and automatically know what bitcoin equates to by knowing the average price of bread or other produce in their native country. thus removing the dollar as the metric

[rajasumi2]

Yess i think bitcoin can stand alone and himself can beat up all the cryptocurrency in the near future .its system is too good than the others and people are investing a lot of money on this bitcoins. And the popularity is going higher day by day .kudoos

[Catlonid]

Yess i think bitcoin can stand alone and himself can beat up all the cryptocurrency in the near future .its system is too good than the others and people are investing a lot of money on this bitcoins. And the popularity is going higher day by day .kudoos

You do realize that Bitcoin is standing on top of the fiat pyramid right?

That is its foundation.

I think you right, bitcoin have a super currency and can beat up all the cryptocurrency. But I think bitcoin must not stand alone because bitcoin need competitor, in my opinoin if bitcoin stand alone will make economic in the world is broke. I think bitcoin and cryptocurrency can walk together.

[Fireblade]

Yess i think bitcoin can stand alone and himself can beat up all the cryptocurrency in the near future .its system is too good than the others and people are investing a lot of money on this bitcoins. And the popularity is going higher day by day .kudoos

no doubt about this that bitcoin can stand along but i think bitcoin is not here to beat any crypto currency or any other fiat currency, as bitcoin has not concerned with them. bitcoin will survive as the users of bitcoin are increasing continuously and it is also hopeful that in future bitcoin can be use even in our local markets for shopping.

[Yakamoto]

The only way to be able to start pricing things in Bitcoin is to get an entire supply chain, from producer all the way own to consumer, with at least one company in every single industry accepting Bitcoin. If something like that happens, pricing in Bitcoin becomes a lot more plausible thanks to the ability to actually use Bitcoin wherever you may need to use it.

If you need to use fiat at some point, then the supply line is not fully "Bitcoin-ed" and it is not possible to price things in Bitcoin rather than fiat.

[DimensionZ]

I think Bitcoin can be priced against anything that is of value for people. At it happens now it's fiat money. But it can be also precious metals, food, clothing, furniture, arms, ammunition etc. I guess you all watch the Walking Dead. Well, it's a pretty good show and a fine example of exchanging or bartering items of value. One item is priced against another. Bitcoin needs to be priced against something and can't just exist on its own.

[davis196]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

What`s the problem about btc pricing in fiat?

99,9% of the people in the world use fiat and maybe 0.01% use bitcoins.

This won`t change soon.

[darklus123]

Things that the current bitcoin ecosystem depends on to survive right now:

Nodes
Miners
Exchanges
Fiat
Internet
Noobs
Bitcoin news outlets
Alt coins
Promotions

Some are obviously more important than others but nonetheless they are a part of what bitcoin is today.

Could it ever be independent and self sufficient?

Sometimes it just seems like a black hole that will forever need more and more resources to survive.

1,2,5 is obviously the primary things that bitcoin has without those bitcoin is obviously nothing.

Exchanges and Fiats, each currency does need other currency for stability. Bitcoin does not owned by one country so obviously you are going to convert them to fiat whether you'll like it or not.


The other things that youve stated IMO is not necessary.
I think you have your own perspective about bitcoin. I will just be ending you a

No man is an island

[sportis]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

Bitcoin is a global currency decentralized and secure. Fiat money has many drawbacks but people have accepted it and use it in every day transactions especially in micro payments even more than their credit/debit cards even though the latter are fiat money too. Maybe next or after next generation will accept only crypto currencies instead of fiat money.

[Rizky Aditya]

Most people on the world would have to be using Bitcoin as their primary currency if you wanted it to stop being priced in fiat. Right now, most people view Bitcoin as an investment, and like most other investments(if not all) it is priced in fiat. And to be honest, I doubt that is ever going to change, but people can have dreams.

[romero121]

As quoted internet seems to be the one without which bitcoin could have never reached this high. If everything around the globe gets digitalized as well people gets some basic education, sure bitcoin stands alone. But these were not cent percent possible so sure bitcoin grows with dependence.

[Positid]

As quoted internet seems to be the one without which bitcoin could have never reached this high. If everything around the globe gets digitalized as well people gets some basic education, sure bitcoin stands alone. But these were not cent percent possible so sure bitcoin grows with dependence.

The question is, is internet wil be here forever? I guess if not forever it will be here longer, with internet online transactions are possible and bitcoin relies on internet so it can stand alone if we will support it even without the value of fiat. Since it is just a payment system for now it should be considered as an asset in the future to give weight on its value.

[Yutikas_11920]

As quoted internet seems to be the one without which bitcoin could have never reached this high. If everything around the globe gets digitalized as well people gets some basic education, sure bitcoin stands alone. But these were not cent percent possible so sure bitcoin grows with dependence.

The question is, is internet wil be here forever? I guess if not forever it will be here longer, with internet online transactions are possible and bitcoin relies on internet so it can stand alone if we will support it even without the value of fiat. Since it is just a payment system for now it should be considered as an asset in the future to give weight on its value.

If indeed the bitcoin missing then it because the 2 factors that is because the internet is no longer used and the other is because it had very little interest in bitcoin for some reason. So you are indeed correct that bitcoin is a digital currency that is very dependent on the internet and if the internet then everything will end up in the bitcoin. This is something a bad thing if indeed we can not control properly, or it could be called that we should be able to market your bitcoin for everyone so that its growth is very good

[Xester]

As quoted internet seems to be the one without which bitcoin could have never reached this high. If everything around the globe gets digitalized as well people gets some basic education, sure bitcoin stands alone. But these were not cent percent possible so sure bitcoin grows with dependence.

As you have mentioned if all people around the globe are digitalized then bitcoin may have a chance to stand alone. But  it is only one the factors that will lead eventually to bitcoins being independent. But for now the world is not yet ready, the change and shift from fiat to crypto will undergo a normal transition and there are no shortcuts. But I believe on the idea that someday it is a possibility.

[bitjoin]

As quoted internet seems to be the one without which bitcoin could have never reached this high. If everything around the globe gets digitalized as well people gets some basic education, sure bitcoin stands alone. But these were not cent percent possible so sure bitcoin grows with dependence.

As you have mentioned if all people around the globe are digitalized then bitcoin may have a chance to stand alone. But  it is only one the factors that will lead eventually to bitcoins being independent. But for now the world is not yet ready, the change and shift from fiat to crypto will undergo a normal transition and there are no shortcuts. But I believe on the idea that someday it is a possibility.

Bitcoin full adoption right now could create wars and much anarchy.  Govs would lose power population would have to fend for themselves and they aren't used to it.

[deisik]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch

Let's be specific here

People don't price Bitcoin in abstract fiat. They price it in dollars, euro, British pounds, Chinese yuan, Russian rubles, and whatever currency might exist out there. What does it tell us? Basically, that this valuation is no more than a useful convention since most of these currencies are independent of each other. As you can see, it proves the point that you can essentially price Bitcoin in anything, which is only a matter of personal preferences and convenience

[Kprawn]

Yess i think bitcoin can stand alone and himself can beat up all the cryptocurrency in the near future .its system is too good than the others and people are investing a lot of money on this bitcoins. And the popularity is going higher day by day .kudoos

You do realize that Bitcoin is standing on top of the fiat pyramid right?

That is its foundation.

Oh, Bullshit .... When people exchanged live stock back in the day, were those built on top of any kind of pyramid scheme? When they

exchanged sea shells... were those some sort of pyramid scheme? The Fiat system is just another token with value, backed and created from

thin air by governments. Bitcoin will replace the fiat system, if people ignore the "fake" value added by governments to their fiat currencies,

and accept Bitcoin as the reserve currency. 

[chesatochi]

Yess i think bitcoin can stand alone and himself can beat up all the cryptocurrency in the near future .its system is too good than the others and people are investing a lot of money on this bitcoins. And the popularity is going higher day by day .kudoos

You do realize that Bitcoin is standing on top of the fiat pyramid right?

That is its foundation.

Oh, Bullshit .... When people exchanged live stock back in the day, were those built on top of any kind of pyramid scheme? When they

exchanged sea shells... were those some sort of pyramid scheme? The Fiat system is just another token with value, backed and created from

thin air by governments. Bitcoin will replace the fiat system, if people ignore the "fake" value added by governments to their fiat currencies,

and accept Bitcoin as the reserve currency. 

Always remember that fiat is only paper that people believe that have value on. Also, backed that is from the government and people have faith in it. I think the bitcoin have already proved on itself that it have a stable value that people could believe it.

Should be great to have the bitcoin as a reserve currency.

[pereira4]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

What`s the problem about btc pricing in fiat?

99,9% of the people in the world use fiat and maybe 0.01% use bitcoins.

This won`t change soon.

It will never change unless people are forced to use bitcoin, so we have to wait for situations like india to happen in the developed world. If that never happens, then bitcoin will remain as a better gold as long as developed world usage goes, because people simply dont need it when they have fiat and they can do the same thing without having to go through annoying exchanges.

[avatar_kiyoshi]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

Since bitcoin have a value and even more value, bitcoin also have a price, means it can be used for buy everything even fiat, then if it's no pricing, bitcoin haven't value isn't.
My point is not pairing bitcoin with fiat, but it's valuable which means people aware this is very worth, so you can use it.
If bitcoin not pricing, you can buy 1 btc just for a nut or even you can't use it, because it's haven't value.

[crairezx20]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

Since bitcoin have a value and even more value, bitcoin also have a price, means it can be used for buy everything even fiat, then if it's no pricing, bitcoin haven't value isn't.
My point is not pairing bitcoin with fiat, but it's valuable which means people aware this is very worth, so you can use it.
If bitcoin not pricing, you can buy 1 btc just for a nut or even you can't use it, because it's haven't value.

Yeah we still use it because it has a value it is just like a gold silver or any metal that has high value.. bitcoin is always good to use as alternative and yeah we do not need to compare them since fiat is realy money and we are using it in our daily life..
The good benefits of bitcoin is to have price increase even you are just holding it you can gain profit.. and the movement is more fast than the local fiat that it takes year before you can see the price changes.

[Ayers]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

Bitcoin does not price itself in fiat.

if there was not fiat how would you determine how much a bitcoin value is? let's assume that we don't know its value for a moment, for example to buy a car, how much bitcoin you are willing to give away? so bitcoin is indeed dependent on fiat do you agree?

[LuanX3]

I would like first to applaud Dannyhamilton on his answers; they were all on point.

Fiat rules the world and we can't do anything about it yet. Fiat currency will not be gone until probably we create a world government that will only use one currency for the whole world, but if that does happen, then there would not be bitcoins too.

Bitcoin's value is not dependent on fiat at all. The price we pay for bitcoin in fiat is what we think is its value. Value is not related to currency. It is the value we give to Bitcoin and how much we are willing to pay for it, that is how bitcoin is priced.

When the value of USD rises, Bitcoin does not change its value. What changed was the value of the USD. This means I would get lesser USD when I sell my Bitcoin, because the value of the USD strengthens vs. the value of Bitcoins.

[QuestionAuthority]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

Bitcoin does not price itself in fiat.

if there was not fiat how would you determine how much a bitcoin value is? let's assume that we don't know its value for a moment, for example to buy a car, how much bitcoin you are willing to give away? so bitcoin is indeed dependent on fiat do you agree?

It could be valued in anything. Think about something you might not have a lot of access to but you like, say a bag of weed.

You want some weed and your friend has some. You ask him to trade some weed for something you have. He says he will give you an ounce if you give him your car. You refuse but offer a pack of pencils instead. He refuses and says he needs a television and asks if you'll trade your small bedroom tv for an ounce of weed. You agree and make the trade. That means an ounce of weed is worth a tv.

Bitcoin is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it. If no one wants to buy Bitcoin it's worth nothing. If tons of people want to buy Bitcoin it's expensive regardless what item it's priced in. It could even be worth a car someday.

[bitbunnny]

This situation is not very likely to be changed, I can't see the way. Bitcoin has to be valued in something and that doesn't necessary have to be fiat but is the most convenient and most precise. How else could we determine how much Bitcoin is worth? There has to be some refferal value. And I don't see anything bad in this.

[deisik]

What`s the problem about btc pricing in fiat?

99,9% of the people in the world use fiat and maybe 0.01% use bitcoins.

This won`t change soon.

It will never change unless people are forced to use bitcoin, so we have to wait for situations like india to happen in the developed world. If that never happens, then bitcoin will remain as a better gold as long as developed world usage goes, because people simply dont need it when they have fiat and they can do the same thing without having to go through annoying exchanges.

Events like Cyprus hair-cut would work even better

And there are a lot of other things that could heavily undermine the faith of people in their fiat money in particular and in government on the whole. I'm dead sure that we will see a lot of interesting stuff in the nearest future. In fact, I'm more worried about whether Bitcoin will be able to cope with the surging adoption. I mean all those games around block size increase since it would be utterly frustrating to see all this adoption potential wasted due to someone's insatiable ambitions

[jak3]

bitcoin can stand alone..it will have its demand for a long time because many countries where living without development but bitcoin has helped many people to refresh their money related ideas and motivations

[Bitcoinsummoner]

Most people on the world would have to be using Bitcoin as their primary currency if you wanted it to stop being priced in fiat. Right now, most people view Bitcoin as an investment, and like most other investments(if not all) it is priced in fiat. And to be honest, I doubt that is ever going to change, but people can have dreams.

I agree with you but it is impossible that bitcoin will be primary currency in the future and we can not still use bitcoin as primary currency.
Bitcoin is always good as alternative and i think it is still the best as investment maybe in the future more adoption will come the price of bitcoin will be more valuable..

[fiscorcle]

It can stand alone but not without a fall back plan incase of an emergency.

[coinplus]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

Anything in this world must need some price levels to compare it and to value it. To stand alone, bitcoin must need a totally new different world where everything will be priced in terms of bitcoins. Maybe when people are migrating into planet Mars, I guess it will be possible.

Till then I believe we need to price bitcoin in fiats.

[niagrabill]

When fiat finally goes digital people will pay with that and the demand for bitcoin could drop.

[lakisis]

Yess i think bitcoin can stand alone and himself can beat up all the cryptocurrency in the near future .its system is too good than the others and people are investing a lot of money on this bitcoins. And the popularity is going higher day by day .kudoos

you are right that bitcoin system is very much good than other crypto currency and i think its the main reason that people going to invest their money in bitcoin and they are really adopting bitcoin in huge amount and you are right that bitcoin getting popularity too much faster in any areas of the world.

[kryptqnick]

I think bitcoin is already alone if we speak of dependence on fiat. I mean, how can the sudden rise in price from a few dollars to few hundred dollars can be explained if it does depend on anything? Dollar didn't have much changes at that time.
I think bitcoin could exist without any fiat. However, I suppose it won't stand alone, because some other cryptocurrencies will reach its level of popularity.

[Ocalebeth]

It can stand alone but not without a fall back plan incase of an emergency.

The fact is that it can not most likely get alone on itself, due to the fact its really depending on the dollar right now so its pretty easy to say.

[TravisNeko]

The bitcoin cannot stand alone on itself its way too small to do this and its also depending on other currency's right now so that is already saying enough right ?

[Wind_FURY]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch

Let's be specific here

People don't price Bitcoin in abstract fiat. They price it in dollars, euro, British pounds, Chinese yuan, Russian rubles, and whatever currency might exist out there. What does it tell us? Basically, that this valuation is no more than a useful convention since most of these currencies are independent of each other. As you can see, it proves the point that you can essentially price Bitcoin in anything, which is only a matter of personal preferences and convenience

But are all fiat currencies really independent of each other? The last time I checked most of the countries around the world consider the US Dollar as the reserve currency. Most of those countries hold their reserves in USD and GBP or even Euro. Once that happens a dependency will have to occur. International trade is also one way of making these currencies become dependent with each other, specifically dependency on the US Dollar.

[QuestionAuthority]

The bitcoin cannot stand alone on itself its way too small to do this and its also depending on other currency's right now so that is already saying enough right ?

I know it looks that way but that's not really true.  Traders want to link it to a currency so they can buy bitcoin and sell them for profit, buy low and sell high.  That's how traders make their money.

A long time ago a guy traded bitcoins for pizza when bitcoins were relatively worthless in dollar value.  Would you say Bitcoin depends on pizza, of course not.

[deisik]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch

Let's be specific here

People don't price Bitcoin in abstract fiat. They price it in dollars, euro, British pounds, Chinese yuan, Russian rubles, and whatever currency might exist out there. What does it tell us? Basically, that this valuation is no more than a useful convention since most of these currencies are independent of each other. As you can see, it proves the point that you can essentially price Bitcoin in anything, which is only a matter of personal preferences and convenience

But are all fiat currencies really independent of each other? The last time I checked most of the countries around the world consider the US Dollar as the reserve currency. Most of those countries hold their reserves in USD and GBP or even Euro. Once that happens a dependency will have to occur. International trade is also one way of making these currencies become dependent with each other, specifically dependency on the US Dollar.

It is international trade exactly that makes countries (not just currencies) depend on each other. And the dependency of currencies is an effect not a cause of that. It could be said that the level of such dependency itself depends on how closely the economies of countries are intertwined. But, first, such dependency is not absolute since in most countries inner market still has a priority over exports, therefore these countries will easily survive if these trade ties are totally severed, for whatever reason. And, second, this dependence is mutual in any case, so it can be safely discarded from consideration in respect to whether Bitcoin depends on fiat...

As you can see, this point doesn't challenge the argument

[geopolisch]

I believe even fiats are not standing alone. Fiat's buying capacity gets varied over time. In currency market we are valuing almost all fiat against another fiat.
Inflation and deflation decides the value of (buying power) any fiat. So how we can expect bitcoin to stand alone.

[LovelyPrey]

Bitcoin can stand alone in regards of crypto currencies but with fiat I guess bitcoin cannot since its value makes it limit thru fiat currencies today.

[eternalgloom]

When fiat finally goes digital people will pay with that and the demand for bitcoin could drop.

What do you mean by that? Fiat is already available digitally, we have online banking etc.
Or do you mean fully digital with no more real life bank notes and coins? I don't think that would weaken Bitcoin, since the value of that currency could also still drop and it's still haunted by inflation.

[Ilikechineseefood]

When fiat finally goes digital people will pay with that and the demand for bitcoin could drop.

Most likely you are right but we still have to have some patient because nothing is sure and it can change easily too, its hard to predict.

[iqlimasyadiqa]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

of course we can not use bitcoin in full. we have to use some of the existing financial system today. not many people who can access the bitcoin. because bitcoin requires a computer technology.

[dihari]

Bitcoin still exist is caused by fiat currency guarantee. Let's dream for a minute, what if American dollars down because of a bomb with power like Hiroshima/Nagasaki is explode in new York? Is bitcoin will still alive?

What if the government can't buy oil to keep electricity country stay operate, and to keep your computer stay on. Do bitcoin still have a price?

[Kprawn]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

of course we can not use bitcoin in full. we have to use some of the existing financial system today. not many people who can access the bitcoin. because bitcoin requires a computer technology.

Well, not exactly true... Bitcoin can be used on simple mobile phones...  but even that needs some sort of internet access to make that work. The

user will have to pay for data to access his/her wallet on one of these third party wallet providers. Someone should really develop a hardware

device, that could be used as a Bitcoin wallet, with wifi built into it. That way... you would not need to use your phone or computer to make tx's.

[deisik]

A long time ago a guy traded bitcoins for pizza when bitcoins were relatively worthless in dollar value.  Would you say Bitcoin depends on pizza, of course not

It depends on what people are exchanging it for and willing to accept it as payment

So the logic behind the claim that Bitcoin cannot exist without fiat seems to be based on that assumption. In this and only in this way, it can be said that Bitcoin depends on fiat. On the other hand, we can always claim that in such an exchange it is fiat that depends on Bitcoin, and not the other way round. But in any case, if we completely remove fiat, Bitcoin already has the required features to substitute it as a means of exchange

[Wandering Soul~]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

Fiat is needed to measure the value of bitcoin so it cannot stand alone as it is depended on it .

Of course we can't stop pricing in fiat cause it is the most used form of money

Pricing in bitcoin is not a bad idea but it needs a massive popularity/awareness from people all over the world first .

[darklus123]

A long time ago a guy traded bitcoins for pizza when bitcoins were relatively worthless in dollar value.  Would you say Bitcoin depends on pizza, of course not

It depends on what people are exchanging it for and willing to accept it as payment

So the logic behind the claim that Bitcoin cannot exist without fiat seems to be based on that assumption. In this and only in this way, it can be said that Bitcoin depends on fiat. On the other hand, we can always claim that in such an exchange it is fiat that depends on Bitcoin, and not the other way round. But in any case, if we completely remove fiat, Bitcoin already has the required features to substitute it as a means of exchange

Well yeah i guess that it is right. Bitcoin needs fiat to be exchanged for( i guess that is how currency works and obviously bitcoin is a currency) but that doesnt mean that bitcoin could stand alone of course the only tjing here is that it is not being owned by a certain place. It is controlled by a community(us users)

[SamMurphy]

You can't stop using fiat money from one moment to another. We like it or not, fiat is around us, and we have to use it for living. If fiat stops exists one day, maybe then we can use only bitcoin, but now it's not the time

[kidoseagle0312]

Most people on the world would have to be using Bitcoin as their primary currency if you wanted it to stop being priced in fiat. Right now, most people view Bitcoin as an investment, and like most other investments(if not all) it is priced in fiat. And to be honest, I doubt that is ever going to change, but people can have dreams.

Actually, majority of the community in the bitcoin world who joined in this field of industry they take bitcoin for real as their personal investment and savings for their future.

[Przemax]

I honestly cant imagine the bitcoin use for wider scale than just in a use of internet services. Firstly we would need to  have a market that allows bitcoin only attainable goods like computer gaming, programming etc. I could see bitcoins as standalone in one development project. Its uses could be much more than a system of payment. Bitcoin could represent some level of individual involvment in some project. For example a project have a budget of 10 bitcoins and each actions could attain you some bitcoins. You can then send some bitcoins to a friend to help you with some other task. In other words blockchain technology can help develop new chain of orders within a new system of managment of resources.

[deisik]

Fiat is needed to measure the value of bitcoin so it cannot stand alone as it is depended on it

Fiat is needed to measure the value of gold too

And a lot of other things as well, in fact, almost all things. But does it mean that gold and other things have no value without fiat? Since it is obvious that weight can perfectly well exist without scales, it should be as clear as day that fiat serves only a utilitarian function of revealing the value of one good against another good (but not creating this value, which is inherent to things). So are you going to continue claiming that Bitcoin can't stand alone even if that would mean that all other things couldn't have value on their own either, i.e. without fiat hanging around?

[MancyZz]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

what is mean bitcoin don not stand alone ? i think until now bitcoin is stand alone

[Tyrantt]

I honestly cant imagine the bitcoin use for wider scale than just in a use of internet services. Firstly we would need to  have a market that allows bitcoin only attainable goods like computer gaming, programming etc. I could see bitcoins as standalone in one development project. Its uses could be much more than a system of payment. Bitcoin could represent some level of individual involvment in some project. For example a project have a budget of 10 bitcoins and each actions could attain you some bitcoins. You can then send some bitcoins to a friend to help you with some other task. In other words blockchain technology can help develop new chain of orders within a new system of managment of resources.

I see it being integrated a lot more into daily life as an optional payment, may have some fees but it would be like a second option to payment.

[noictib]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

I think fiat is crutch for everyone and also for every country fiat is a main thing ( since it gives us limitations to make deals in the whole world with less each charge ) But still we can't make buy anything without fiat in own country .
So we need to remain in touch with both , Bitcoin and fiat .

[geofflosophy]

Can you stop pricing yourself in fiat?

I would say it is with almost 100% certainty that you cannot.

I'm wondering just how long you will use the fiat banking system as your crutch.

Yes, no problem. I already changed my perspective. I consider fiat a vastly inferior form of money. A "gain" in bitcoin fiat "value" is in fact a decrease of fiat purchasing power compared to Bitcoin.

I will never exchange Bitcoin for fiat trash money. I never did. It just makes no sense.

For Bitcoin to be generally perceived as a reference for value, we need a closed-loop Bitcoin economy. That will take some time. Nowadays fiat money is moving into Bitcoin relatively slowly, however the stream will increase significantly once we see more inflation. The central banks are doing the best possible advertising for Bitcoin. Their actions will produce hyperinflation and destroy the acceptance of fiat money. Bitcoin will thrive because of these developments.

ya.ya.yo!

What he said.

[Bitcoin0916]

I think it is not possible can stand alone, bitcoin is also influenced by many things, for example, is banned by many the governments. If approved by the Government bitcoin could, will certainly further improve the popularity of the bitcoin and the price will be go up.

[Positid]

I think it is not possible can stand alone, bitcoin is also influenced by many things, for example, is banned by many the governments. If approved by the Government bitcoin could, will certainly further improve the popularity of the bitcoin and the price will be go up.

It can't stand alone as it's just an alternative currency, it's only popular because we see the price is increasing and has increased from less than a dollar in the past but it will not come to the point that we will be using bitcoin in our daily transaction and we will disregard fiat, not possible IMO.

[mrcash02]

I think it is not possible can stand alone, bitcoin is also influenced by many things, for example, is banned by many the governments. If approved by the Government bitcoin could, will certainly further improve the popularity of the bitcoin and the price will be go up.

It can't stand alone as it's just an alternative currency, it's only popular because we see the price is increasing and has increased from less than a dollar in the past but it will not come to the point that we will be using bitcoin in our daily transaction and we will disregard fiat, not possible IMO.

That is true, alternative currencies can't stand alone as the main currency. Everything turns around dollar because it's a trusted and stable coin, most economy guys, investors, businessmen trust in dollar and it won't change so fast. Currently, as an alternative currency, Bitcoin can just be more one currency in this vast world, however it doesn't mean BTC is less important than dollar or any other currency. On the contrary, the potential of Bitcoin is much bigger than any other currency.

[rajasumi2]

yess bitcoins can stop alone in this fiat and stop the use of fiat totally when the government of all countries agree to be using bitcoins as their currency .well well if u think thats gonna happen soon no it would not ,it would take minimum 50 years to happen that and the price of bitcoins would reach to a certain level so that we can have stability to a certain level.

[deisik]

I think it is not possible can stand alone, bitcoin is also influenced by many things, for example, is banned by many the governments. If approved by the Government bitcoin could, will certainly further improve the popularity of the bitcoin and the price will be go up.

It can't stand alone as it's just an alternative currency, it's only popular because we see the price is increasing and has increased from less than a dollar in the past but it will not come to the point that we will be using bitcoin in our daily transaction and we will disregard fiat, not possible IMO.

That is true, alternative currencies can't stand alone as the main currency. Everything turns around dollar because it's a trusted and stable coin, most economy guys, investors, businessmen trust in dollar and it won't change so fast. Currently, as an alternative currency, Bitcoin can just be more one currency in this vast world, however it doesn't mean BTC is less important than dollar or any other currency. On the contrary, the potential of Bitcoin is much bigger than any other currency.

Such logic looks utterly suspicious

If everything turns around the dollar as you say, shouldn't we then consider, for example, Swiss franc and Euro as alternative currencies too, in the sense you mean it? If we compare economies of the US and the EU, they are pretty close, so there is no reason to think the Euro is an alternative currency to the US dollar since it could be claimed in absolutely the same manner and to the same degree that the US dollar is an alternative currency to the Euro. In respect to the Swiss franc, it is thought as a more stable currency overall than the dollar itself (no quantitative easings and similar shit), therefore there is hardly any plausible reason either to think that it somehow depends on the latter

[QuestionAuthority]

I think it is not possible can stand alone, bitcoin is also influenced by many things, for example, is banned by many the governments. If approved by the Government bitcoin could, will certainly further improve the popularity of the bitcoin and the price will be go up.

It can't stand alone as it's just an alternative currency, it's only popular because we see the price is increasing and has increased from less than a dollar in the past but it will not come to the point that we will be using bitcoin in our daily transaction and we will disregard fiat, not possible IMO.

That is true, alternative currencies can't stand alone as the main currency. Everything turns around dollar because it's a trusted and stable coin, most economy guys, investors, businessmen trust in dollar and it won't change so fast. Currently, as an alternative currency, Bitcoin can just be more one currency in this vast world, however it doesn't mean BTC is less important than dollar or any other currency. On the contrary, the potential of Bitcoin is much bigger than any other currency.

Such logic looks utterly suspicious

If everything turns around the dollar as you say, shouldn't we then consider, for example, Swiss franc and Euro as alternative currencies too, in the sense you mean it? If we compare economies of the US and the EU, they are pretty close, so there is no reason to think the Euro is an alternative currency to the US dollar since it could be claimed in absolutely the same manner and to the same degree that the US dollar is an alternative currency to the Euro. In respect to the Swiss franc, it is thought as a more stable currency than the dollar itself, therefore there is hardly any plausible reason either to think that it somehow depends on the latter

That's very true. Altcoins are no more valid or invalid than Bitcoin. The only difference is Bitcoin has been around longer. Angel investors spent money building infrastructure around Bitcoin because it was new and they were looking for something cutting edge to invest in hoping for that "Mark Zuckerberg" success someday. They could just as easily have invested in Litecoin and it would be the most recognized coin today. If Litecoin were around at the time and Ross Ulbricht used it for Silk Road purchases then Litecoin would be on top.

[CyberKuro]

Things that the current bitcoin ecosystem depends on to survive right now:

Nodes
Miners

True.  Since these things DEFINE bitcoin, it does depend on their existence.  To say otherwise would be to say that the existence of bitcoin does not require the existence of bitcoin.

Exchanges
Fiat
Internet

While those three things are not required at all for the continued existence of bitcoin, they are helpful.  They make bitcoin mush easier to use and make it much easier for others to start using bitcoin if they want to.

Noobs
Bitcoin news outlets
Alt coins
Promotions

Bitcoin doesn't need any of those things, and in many cases some of those things are actually WORSE for bitcoin than if they didn't exist.

Could it ever be independent and self sufficient?

That depends on what you mean by "independent and self sufficient".  If you mean can it exist without the things that define it (nodes and miners), then no it can't ever be "independent and self sufficient".  If you mean can it exist without any mandated participation, then it is already "independent and self sufficient".

Sometimes it just seems like a black hole that will forever need more and more resources to survive.

Yes.  Bitcoin (or any other money system) is simply a method of tracking how much of one thing you can exchange for another thing.  Since we humans have a tendency to use resources to continue our existence, and bitcoin (and other money systems) simply keep track of the exchange of things such as those resources, all money systems will always be "a black hole that will forever need more and more resources to survive".

Yes, it's really important to know about how bitcoin can stand alone, too many factors affecting bitcoin and it can not separate from those things, however, not only bitcoin depends on resources, we all human did. Bitcoin can stop be pricing in fiat but to anything that valuable due to people need to know the value of something according to the benefits of it to compare with anything.

[deisik]

You can't stop using fiat money from one moment to another. We like it or not, fiat is around us, and we have to use it for living. If fiat stops exists one day, maybe then we can use only bitcoin, but now it's not the time

Technically, fiat is only needed as cash

If we take electronic payments and assume that Bitcoin could be scaled up efficiently and effectively (which is a big assume, to be honest), I see nothing that could prevent Bitcoin from substituting fiat. In fact, on a world scale, Bitcoin would beat fiat money hands down any day, since the transactions are propagated almost instantly across the world (maybe, a few seconds at most) and the confirmation times of ten minutes (remember, Bitcoin has been scaled up to the level of adoption) are also almost instant in comparison with wire transfers that take up to a few days, especially if you send money from one country to another on the other side of the planet

Such logic looks utterly suspicious

If everything turns around the dollar as you say, shouldn't we then consider, for example, Swiss franc and Euro as alternative currencies too, in the sense you mean it? If we compare economies of the US and the EU, they are pretty close, so there is no reason to think the Euro is an alternative currency to the US dollar since it could be claimed in absolutely the same manner and to the same degree that the US dollar is an alternative currency to the Euro. In respect to the Swiss franc, it is thought as a more stable currency than the dollar itself, therefore there is hardly any plausible reason either to think that it somehow depends on the latter

That's very true. Altcoins are no more valid or invalid than Bitcoin. The only difference is Bitcoin has been around longer. Angel investors spent money building infrastructure around Bitcoin because it was new and they were looking for something cutting edge to invest in hoping for that "Mark Zuckerberg" success someday. They could just as easily have invested in Litecoin and it would be the most recognized coin today. If Litecoin were around at the time and Ross Ulbricht used it for Silk Road purchases then Litecoin would be on top.

Well, somehow I didn't expect that you would agree with me

[darklus123]

Fiat is needed to measure the value of bitcoin so it cannot stand alone as it is depended on it

Fiat is needed to measure the value of gold too

And a lot of other things as well, in fact, almost all things. But does it mean that gold and other things have no value without fiat? Since it is obvious that weight can perfectly well exist without scales, it should be as clear as day that fiat serves only a utilitarian function of revealing the value of one good against another good (but not creating this value, which is inherent to things). So are you going to continue claiming that Bitcoin can't stand alone even if that would mean that all other things couldn't have value on their own either, i.e. without fiat hanging around?

You basically said all the right things that I know. Well, in fact all of us here( I'm 90% sure that we uses bitcoin for our fiat needs) Even the fiat currency it self needs other currency to sustain its value. So what was the difference in the first place? People are just over thinking

[QuestionAuthority]

You can't stop using fiat money from one moment to another. We like it or not, fiat is around us, and we have to use it for living. If fiat stops exists one day, maybe then we can use only bitcoin, but now it's not the time

Technically, fiat is only needed as cash

If we take electronic payments and assume that Bitcoin could be scaled up efficiently and effectively (which is a big assume, to be honest), I see nothing that could prevent Bitcoin from substituting fiat. In fact, on a world scale, Bitcoin would beat fiat money hands down any day, since the transactions are propagated almost instantly across the world (maybe, a few seconds at most) and the confirmation times of ten minutes (remember, Bitcoin has been scaled up to the level of adoption) are also almost instant in comparison with wire transfers that take up to a few days, especially if you send money from one country to another on the other side of the planet

Such logic looks utterly suspicious

If everything turns around the dollar as you say, shouldn't we then consider, for example, Swiss franc and Euro as alternative currencies too, in the sense you mean it? If we compare economies of the US and the EU, they are pretty close, so there is no reason to think the Euro is an alternative currency to the US dollar since it could be claimed in absolutely the same manner and to the same degree that the US dollar is an alternative currency to the Euro. In respect to the Swiss franc, it is thought as a more stable currency than the dollar itself, therefore there is hardly any plausible reason either to think that it somehow depends on the latter

That's very true. Altcoins are no more valid or invalid than Bitcoin. The only difference is Bitcoin has been around longer. Angel investors spent money building infrastructure around Bitcoin because it was new and they were looking for something cutting edge to invest in hoping for that "Mark Zuckerberg" success someday. They could just as easily have invested in Litecoin and it would be the most recognized coin today. If Litecoin were around at the time and Ross Ulbricht used it for Silk Road purchases then Litecoin would be on top.

Well, somehow I didn't expect that you would agree with me

I agree with the truth regardless of whether it favors Bitcoin or it's against it. What you said is the truth.