Monero's ANON FAIL !

[dinofelis]

I would think that both monero and bitcoin are still in a kind of infinitesimal infancy before these kinds of considerations even take place. 

To quote myself, here's a great illustration of that fact:

http://money.visualcapitalist.com/all-of-the-worlds-money-and-markets-in-one-visualization/

[flipme]

Spoetnik brought up the points concerning end-to-end encryption in general, not only for Monero.
It's pointless. If they want you, they'll get you, at the endpoints, one way or another.
It's a honeypot feature.

After all, we could focus on more important features than anonymity, it just doesn't exist.

[generalizethis]

Spoetnik brought up the points concerning end-to-end encryption in general, not only for Monero.
It's pointless. If they want you, they'll get you, at the endpoints, one way or another.
It's a honeypot feature.

After all, we could focus on more important features than anonymity, it just doesn't exist.

100% car safety doesn't exist either, that doesn't mean you strap jet engines on go-karts and claim "that's the best we can do."

Even if Monero only offers me anonymity from ransomware artists, then it's an upgrade from most every coin.

Degree of difficulty (in the case of discovering my financial information) and ease of use (in achieving good ospec) count for something in this debate--sad that it gets overlooked, but not at all surprising given the "fud-blastiness" of the critics.

[Spoetnik]

Spoetnik brought up the points concerning end-to-end encryption in general, not only for Monero.
It's pointless. If they want you, they'll get you, at the endpoints, one way or another.
It's a honeypot feature.

After all, we could focus on more important features than anonymity, it just doesn't exist.

The dangers of a false sense of security (used to profit at Bitcointalk.org) is what concerned me way back.
And i agree it is not an issue exclusive to Monero.. but any coin flaunting this ANON scheme concept.

They are SELLING you a gimmick and it will only work to a point and only for so long.

Lets put this into perspective..
You are all putting your security hiding a hypothetical dark market transaction that if caught will land you jail time.

OR..

Your investment value.

Because what happens when Monero has a gaping hole ripped into it like the titanic Price Wise ?
It will tank like a rock in the ocean..

Who is guarding it ?
A handfiul of cocky argumentative little know it all's who showed up here a couple years ago with no experience who now think they are Earth's authority on all things programming and currency and SECURITY.

It essentially boils down to my safety, privacy and security being guarded by delusional loud mouths like Febo or smooth or FluffyPony or Risto the mental patient.

VS. the combined resources of a major first world country.

You are opposing the USA govt or Russia or China.
And i already pointed out Bin Laden's Lambo for a reason.
To highlight a point.

Ever heard of the NSA ? LOL

Why do you all believe in this false sense of security ?
If it sits on US soil and they want it then they will show up with a warrant and a gag order and take it.
I know because i have seen this in the news lots.. as i predicted a decade earlier.

My experience for almost 20 years in the File Sharing world being a user and a cracker in a major group taught me things.

Security is an illusion.

I watched as some groups were simply nailed via the honey pot scheme and they were left to pour into the pot for many years on end.. Wikipedia lists one FBI operation that they let users pile into for FIVE FUCKING YEARS !
And at that point all the users involved were bloated with a false sense of security and cockiness not realizing they were compromised and being tracked all along.

I am a "Pirate" ..my Disqus account xpmule / Spoetnik for many years now has had the Pirate Party of Canada flag for my Avatar.
I would LOVE to think we can have security and Anonymity but we don't.. and i have to be honest !
I have been battling to defend File Sharing for close to 20 years now pretty much daily.
I would love to be able to have in my tool box a full anon currency that sticks a middle finger to the authorities.
Trust me i fucking get it people.. and i am not against the idea per say.

I am against the illusion and bullshitting from people who are not experts spewing lies and bullshit while they profit from gullible greedy kids who are all too willing to drink the Kool-Aid.

It's not so much i am against the Dark Markets.
I wish the Internet was 100% open and free and lawless essentially.
But it's not !

We have to stand rooted in reality and work from the position we are CURRENTLY in..
into a new position that is grounded and realistic.

A key complaint i have is the jump RIGHT NOW from FIAT paper money to a full ANON coin.
Like i said earlier there is in fact barriers attached to the FIAT monetary system.
We ARE in fact heavily linked and reliant on them.. FULL ANON is not a reasonable concept right now.
..or at least how these guys so far have been going on about it.

I just choose to try and see things as they are.. not as i wish they were.

I hope this is provocative commentary because we are playing a DANGEROUS LITTLE GAME.
And many people are doing it.. simply to profit off you at Poloniex etc.

[Spoetnik]

Spoetnik brought up the points concerning end-to-end encryption in general, not only for Monero.
It's pointless. If they want you, they'll get you, at the endpoints, one way or another.
It's a honeypot feature.

After all, we could focus on more important features than anonymity, it just doesn't exist.

100% car safety doesn't exist either, that doesn't mean you strap jet engines on go-karts and claim "that's the best we can do."

Even if Monero only offers me anonymity from ransomware artists, then it's an upgrade from most every coin.

Degree of difficulty (in the case of discovering my financial information) and ease of use (in achieving good ospec) count for something in this debate--sad that it gets overlooked, but not at all surprising given the "fud-blastiness" of the critics.

Car manufacturers do not Print on their cars "This car can never crash or injure people"

YOU BULLSHITTING ASSHOLES DO SAY THAT !



You guys have been caught lying your ass off around here for years.. never mind the lies printed on the hoody.

[Belligerent Fool]

If Bitcoin chopped and changed its specifications all the time like how all other altcoins do then there wouldn't be a need for altcoins, the reason why Bitcoin doesn't need all these hidden features is because it was and is the true pioneer in this cryptocurrency race.

[dinofelis]

Car manufacturers do not Print on their cars "This car can never crash or injure people"

YOU BULLSHITTING ASSHOLES DO SAY THAT !

You guys have been caught lying your ass off around here for years.. never mind the lies printed on the hoody.

It is not because the salesman of safety belts exaggerates the safety of his belts, that his belts shouldn't be worn.  To use your logic, people should drive cars without safety belts, and actually with air bags full of nails, so that they don't get any false sense of security: if ever they have an accident, they know at least that they will get blown to pieces before crashing through the wind shield.

[Spoetnik]

I simply pointed out the exaggerated UNREALISTIC claims of Monero shills.

They claimed that and yeah there was problems later exposed by BitcoinEXpress.
Proving that they can not deliver what they promise.

I already thoroughly explained this all in detail.. read it maybe ? (rather than trying to cherry pick on me)

Would Microsoft claim that their users emails can never be hacked ? Of course not  

But Monero idiots will make similar claims then print them on Hoody's !
And if and when they are proven wrong the price will be decimated and your investments damn near worthless (before you profiteers defending it can dump and run in silence)

Worse it may very well be a Dark Market idiot trying to buy illegal things on the web who ends up getting arrested.

We're talking about computer services technology for fuck sake's people.
So you all can cut the god damn crap and quit masquerading Monero as the first tech in history unexploitable.

[jwinterm]

I simply pointed out the exaggerated UNREALISTIC claims of Monero shills.

They claimed that and yeah there was problems later exposed by BitcoinEXpress.
Proving that they can not deliver what they promise.

I already thoroughly explained this all in detail.. read it maybe ? (rather than trying to cherry pick on me)

Would Microsoft claim that their users emails can never be hacked ? Of course not  

But Monero idiots will make similar claims then print them on Hoody's !
And if and when they are proven wrong the price will be decimated and your investments damn near worthless (before you profiteers defending it can dump and run in silence)

Worse it may very well be a Dark Market idiot trying to buy illegal things on the web who ends up getting arrested.

We're talking about computer services technology for fuck sake's people.
So you all can cut the god damn crap and quit masquerading Monero as the first tech in history unexploitable.

Which problems were exposed by shitcoinexpress? Afaik he was just a bullshitter trying to buy in cheaper. There was an overflow bug that was inherited from Bytecoin and most likely exploited by Bytecoin people, and that was quickly identified and corrected.

Who is claiming infallibility? It's a tagline, not a guarantee. There was just a hiccup with the implementation of ring-CT that requires everyone to upgrade before the next hardfork in early January. It's about constantly improving, not perfection. If everyone who used Monero thought it was perfect, why would there be rolling hardforks every six months?

Anyway, carry on with your "public service announcements".

[generalizethis]

Anyway, carry on with your "public service announcements".

My guess is it will be more of the same https://youtu.be/XeQ919Jd8Cw

[dinofelis]

I simply pointed out the exaggerated UNREALISTIC claims of Monero shills.

Again, the exaggerated claims of some don't invalidate the fact that one thing has better protection than another.  Monero has much better privacy/fungibility/anonymity properties than bitcoin, which is badly lacking those features.  The pseudonymity thought of by Satoshi didn't work out as well as he thought it would, because of the easiness of chain analysis, which is exactly what techniques such as those used by monero seriously help obfuscating.

We're talking about computer services technology for fuck sake's people.
So you all can cut the god damn crap and quit masquerading Monero as the first tech in history unexploitable.

That's true, for sure there are ways to identify a monero user, for instance by hitting him with a winch until he confesses.   But the protocol makes cheap and obvious chain analysis, such as can be done on the bitcoin block chain, much harder and much less useful.   In the same way that using a long password, and two factor identification, makes your account much safer.  Which doesn't mean that it cannot be broken.  However, that is not an argument to say that, because some hackers can succeed in breaking even two-factor authentication, that one shouldn't have any accounts with a password, and that Joe and Jack can log into my email account or can log into my BCT account without any identification, because in any case, this is not 100% safe, and having a password would give a false sense of security of that account.

And it is not because some people make exaggerated claims about the safety of passwords, that they shouldn't be used at all.

[Spoetnik]

"Better" is not printed on the hoody now is it ?

Further more your usual suspects have been trapped in lies for years on end.

i could dig up a pile of shit based on the last three shill retorts alone.
Wanna go there ?

BitcoinEXpress was called out.. so he shut your mouths closed .
He said he could dig up exploits and he put his money where his mouth is.
Nor do i think he is the top hacker on Earth.. how skilled i have no idea (far smarter than me though)
What you need to be scared shitless of is a guy like me who is utterly diabolical / Persistent.
When i want my victim i will have it /end
Then combine that with a guy who is talented like say BCX and then worse backed by the unlimited resources of a 1st world country.

Once again i have to lecture idiots on computer security.

Dredging up Bytecoin ?
All that does is illustrate the shady history of Morono.. a community take over "Crypto note cloning platform" coin scheme
Where did the original dev go again ?

You pricks surrounding Monero all these years have been trapped in a tornado of lies.
You have simply flip flopped from saying one thing then the opposite when ever it suits your needs.
You are all deceitful and i would trust the FBI before i trusted any of you cunts.

And what qualifications do YOU have ?
Apparently showing up here and BUYING Monero then shilling for it for 2 years makes you an expert on Security.

Bottom line is we see back peddling and games.. as per usual around here.
You get caught red-handed then play games galore to smooth it over (damage control)

I made a point and backed it up with a photo of your employee / not an employee (French Police fraud / Monero Marketing Company leader / Risto employee / MEW Treasurer)
Boasting incredible claims...

THEN you say ohhh weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllllllll
We didn't say "secure"

We said "more secure"

Hey idiots.. guess what ?
When you are buying crack and machine guns and you were told to use the Monero currency because it is safe and secure and untraceable.. it will in fact matter when you are arrested.
And the Monero pricks simply say oh weeeeeeeeeeelllllllllllll we didn't give any guarantee's.  

No you just made bold claims on the web over & over for two years while you count your ROI's on Poloniex.

I can't stand the Monero crew of assholes because you're deceitful shills.
You have poured a million pounds of lies & bullshit here 24/7 for years on end.
So much that you simply try and ignore anything you were caught doing previously
and play dumb like you have some kind of good track record..

You don't.

You have been caught lying and bullshitting endlessly.. proving that you are dishonest little shills.

I would feel sorry for people believing in your bullshit claims.
Funny enough the biggest problem with Monero is in fact the scammy little assholes behind it.
You took a concept with potential and rail roaded it from day one with your bullshit commentary here.

I thought you fucking pricks were leaving ?
You said you were going to start a new site then leave.. you never did !
All you do is loiter around spewing bloody stupid ass fucking bullshit then hoping enough time goes by that the newer crowd here doesn't know about it..

And i am here to remind all these people of your stupid ass fucking shenanigans you pulled all these years.

Feel free to neg me if you don't like my comment assholes.  

..again  

[jwinterm]

Did you just call me a prick? Merry xmas to you too, Spoetprick

Seriously though you're just raging against strawmen. You're like the retarded Don Quixote of shitcointalk. Who cares what is on a sweatshirt? If someone wears a magic internet money sweatshirt about Bitcoin does that mean literally only wizards can use it? Also, thanks for (not) clarifying about what bcx did or didn't do, you 1337 hax0r you.

[dinofelis]

"Better" is not printed on the hoody now is it ?

You're pedalling around the point that what SOME PEOPLE erroneously claim about a technology doesn't influence what a technology can actually provide.  It is not because someone writes on his T-shirt that safety belts will in all cases avoid you from getting hurt in a car accident, that safety belts don't increase safety.  

Hell, many people have claimed false things about bitcoin too.

Further more your usual suspects have been trapped in lies for years on end.

I think, concerning anonymity, that far more people have been trapped by "lies" concerning the anonymity of bitcoin, than with monero, honestly.  Monero's anonymity technology does actually avoid the block chain to be a significant propagator of real world identity knowledge.  Bitcoin's "pseudonymity" does propagate very well real world knowledge.

Of course, the block chain technology itself is not responsible for the gaining of "endpoint real world knowledge" and for leaking transaction real world knowledge, both through inevitable use and also through OPSEC failure.   But the whole point is that that real world knowledge is propagated like fire on the bitcoin block chain, and is essentially stopped on the monero block chain.

You could compare it like this: the bitcoin block chain is made of wood, and the monero chain is made of stone.   These chains by themselves don't avoid fire to develop in its neighbourhood.  But if the chain is put on fire at a place (real world knowledge is discovered), then on the wooden chain, the fire propagates, and on the stone chain, it doesn't.  The privacy on both chains is burned where the fire got it, but on one chain, the fire propagates, on the other, it doesn't.

Of course, real world knowledge will always be won: simply by your counterparty when you transact (when you buy something, the guy you buy from will probably know something about you), so the "end points" know you.  Exchanges know you.  And yes, with OPSEC problems, when people look at your internet traffic, break into your computer, etc... they will gain real world knowledge.    No block chain will protect you from that.
The question simply is: does the block chain PROPAGATE that knowledge or not ?  Monero's protocol propagates it MUCH LESS than bitcoin's, who is essentially transparent.  Much more so than "pseudonymity" would suggest.

And this is where your and mine opposing claims come from.  You are considering that monero cannot protect you much better from "breaking anonymity" than bitcoin if your adversary is a powerful agency like the FBI or worse, the NSA.  That's most probably true.  As I said, it is not a good idea to pay some guys to shoot the POTUS with monero, nor with bitcoin, nor with gold: they'll get you.  Monero will not protect you.  Because they will gain DIRECT real world knowledge, independent of the block chain, through OPSEC and other investigative procedures (hitting a guy with a winch until he confesses can be part of it).

But on the other hand, my simple privacy, when "Joe, the bar keeper" is my adversary, is not even protected on the bitcoin block chain, while on the monero block chain, it is much better hidden.

So: is my privacy/anonymity protected ?

adversary: FBI/NSA :
gold (no), cash (no), bank account (no), monero (no), bitcoin (no)

adversary: Joe the bar keeper:
gold (yes), cash (yes), bank account (yes), monero (mostly yes), bitcoin (no)

The bitcoin failure in the second case comes from the transparency of the block chain, not from OPSEC failure.

[Spoetnik]

Did you just call me a prick? Merry xmas to you too, Spoetprick

Seriously though you're just raging against strawmen. You're like the retarded Don Quixote of shitcointalk. Who cares what is on a sweatshirt? If someone wears a magic internet money sweatshirt about Bitcoin does that mean literally only wizards can use it? Also, thanks for (not) clarifying about what bcx did or didn't do, you 1337 hax0r you.

Retort fail.

It does in fact matter.. Because it wasn't said just once
It is in fact the facade masqueraded 24/7.

And i called all of you maniacal idiots that shill hard for Monero.
Because you act like one.
I have to repeat everything to you all like stupid children.
I just finished saying it is you "Idiots" who fucked up Monero (or should i say Bytecoin ?)

No matter what coin was being flogged you usual suspects would fuck it up anyway.

You inept Morono's shill's think you can argue a currency into existence.. ignoring fundamental problems.
It doesn't work that way.

It's cute how a bunch of brats show up here with 0 experience in anything even remotely related to this stuff then spout off as the premier Universal authority on all things code.. hacking.. security.. currencies.. finance.

All simply because as Risto put it.. he just showed up and bought a fuckton of Monero (so it' the bestest!!! of course)
Admitting it was his *first* coin.

Your retorts are pure fail..
Once again rattling off an exception here on another topic ?
That wont work ..it's just fucking stupid.
And one of you has a habit of doing that a lot.
I will give you a B for effort though.

And it doesn't matter ?
Yeah it does matter when rabid pricks here all holding massive bags lie, fight, argue and sling bullshit for YEARS on end.. all for the sole purpose of propping up the price of their super duper secure and untraceable "Currency" that has essentially no usage YEARS LATER and is 90% traded on Poloniex for profits.

Your gay ass fucking shitcoin is not adopted for a reason idiots.
..if it's not used then it's not a currency.

One day ? mmmmmhhhhmmmmm let me know how that works out for you (if you're not in jail)
I sure as hell want nothing to do with a "criminal coin" used by Pedos's, human traffic'ers and Terrorists selling crack cocaine.. catering to them willfully and deliberately.
While simultaneously defying US law ..to pad your pockets of course.
Why else would you idiots / pricks buy Monero coins then hang around here defending them all the time ?
What ?
Gonna try and claim you are the ONLY people in all of Crypto who did not come here to profit ?

ANON = stupid gimmick / another me-too coin. (coin #1,198)

[Belligerent Fool]

At one stage Bitcoin was considered Anonymous until somebody started to backtrack where payments where coming from, you can always find an original senders address if you study hard enough, True ANON hides this and makes it impossible.

[Spoetnik]

At one stage Bitcoin was considered Anonymous until somebody started to backtrack where payments where coming from, you can always find an original senders address if you study hard enough, True ANON hides this and makes it impossible.

BTC was tracked via cross referencing.

Monero can still be tracked via cross referencing.

Your retort fails.

[charmingfreddie]

Pseudo-anonimity is good enough for me.


What I find hilarious is that 96.52% of Monero's volume belongs to a single, centralized exchange (polo) which also require people's identity. Until that's fixed I'm not sure how people can push Monero.

You are right. I never thought about that.

[Piston Honda]

spoetnik is right.

it's hilarious watching others try to defend xmr when they're not even on the inside lulz.

[dinofelis]

At one stage Bitcoin was considered Anonymous until somebody started to backtrack where payments where coming from, you can always find an original senders address if you study hard enough, True ANON hides this and makes it impossible.

BTC was tracked via cross referencing.

Monero can still be tracked via cross referencing.

Your retort fails.

The whole point is that bitcoin's block chain propagates this kind of partial information, while anonymous chains don't (or do it in a much more limited way).  In other words, you are of course right that no crypto currency protocol can protect you from directly gaining information about a transaction (at the end points, by failing OPSEC, by IP tracing ...) ; but a public block chain like bitcoin PROPAGATES this information from transaction to transaction, while an anonymous chain doesn't.

That's like saying that cash transactions don't help against being filmed by a surveillance camera showing you giving the cash to someone else.  However, that information is not propagated to the next transaction of that cash.  With an anonymous chain, that's similar.  However, with bitcoin's chain, this information, gained at some point, is PROPAGATED to the next transaction.

If Jack is filmed paying Joe, Jack and Joe are identified for that transaction.  However, the next transaction with those funds don't associate it to this transaction on an anonymous block chain, and do so on a public chain.  This has nothing to do with the fact of whether the transaction between Jack and Joe was "legal" or not.   It has to do with the fact that whatever Joe is doing with his money, shouldn't be traceable to the fact that he got it from Jack.  First of all, because that's a matter of privacy.  Second, because if we want all monetary units to be equivalent, this is a necessary property.  And third, because what is considered "illegal" shouldn't always be considered illegal.  Certain acts can be illegal but not criminal (that is to say, there are no victims).   Selling drugs should be legal, but isn't.

You seem to fail to understand the notion of anonymity of a crypto currency.  It is not about "giving you the opportunity to be anonymous".  You are right that this is almost impossible to achieve perfectly.  It is about not making the situation WORSE.  A block chain that propagates information about identity makes privacy essentially inexistant, and makes the quest for partial anonymity worse.  A block chain that doesn't propagate that information at least doesn't bring more harm to your privacy and anonymity than what you had before.

It is not a matter of "improving your anonymity/privacy", it is a matter of not screwing it up still more than it is today.