BlockBurner LLC - Crucible FPGA Scrypt Miner - Announcement Aug-19

[billionaire]

Not interested in a preorder, but I would certainly buy at least one if/when you start rolling out working units.

[btceic]

Really hope Operatr could give us a head start over Jasinlee fpga... I hope we are still leading  

I can't speak for Jasinlee beyond what he has publicly stated to the community, I have no desires to start a rumor mill. I hope they succeed as well, as it is only good for the network. It is great there are others taking the initiative. We'll let our work speak for itself

1. Do you think the market and community is ready for FPGA Litecoin?
Market, maybe. Community, YES! If you can pull better numbers per joule and come in cheaper on hardware cost vs gpu, people will eat em up!


2. Is there definite interest in FPGA Litecoin machines? Would you buy one if the price was reasonable? What is reasonable?
Yes!
Yes!
Free! That will depend on the output. What suckered me into pre-ordering a jala was the price point provide a LOT of hash for the money... If possible, make em scale. There are a ton of people who want to get in on crypto currency because of ideals or greed and typically it's easier to get your feet wet on any endevour if it does not require a second mortgage to do so.

3. Would you pre-order one to support first round funding for prototyping and first wave production?
Thats a hard one to call. I think that would tie in directly to price. Same with answer 2, it was easier to take a chance on a BFL pre-order because it was not a lot of money. Will I shell out $15k? Not on your life. Will I shell out $200 to be an early adopter? Probably.

Some thoughts: I LOVE the mere mention of escrow for funds on a pre-order on your site. If you just manage to do the opposite of everything BFL has done with their ASIC offerings, you will do very well for yourself.

I wish you luck

I find BFL's situation appalling, they are certainly a good example of what not to do

When funding time comes we'll have a real number to hit to meet the requirement for a certain number of production units before receiving the funds, anything over would start the fund for batch 2.

We are eyeing a price/performance target similar to an upper end GPU, while being a lot less costly to operate long term.

What I have yet to see is either the BlockBurner team or jasinlee say "Oh yeah, we're genius cryptanalysts and found ways that scrypt(1024,1,1) can be calculated much faster and/or with significantly less logic than anyone else has figured out how to."

We'll, I can say watching the devs chat is like a different language to me, even with my own technical background. Our design is in progress, much of which currently is certainly centered on the best route to take on many specific aspects in regard to Scrypt hashing. I'm careful to release more information that we should, but I'm dying to give a proper update  

Should I jump off a cliff covered in green jello?

Yes, but just for fun the entertainment of Youtube viewers everywhere.

Fixed that for you!

Well, anything for the cause  

I've spoken with Enterpoint, http://enterpoint.co.uk/ and they have told me they are thinking about developing a Litecoin FPGA miner in the next couple months.

opps more competition, at the end is always who can finished the race faster..

We can always use more motivation



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Would you guys consider a kickstarter project?

[qiuness]

good idea with the kickstarter proj

[Operatr]

Not interested in a preorder, but I would certainly buy at least one if/when you start rolling out working units.

I can understand your hesitation in an industry full of scamsters. Everyone who wants one of these will get one, pre-order or not  

Would you guys consider a kickstarter project?

It has crossed my mind looking at the various funding tools we have access to, though if we were going to go that route I would like to see it be a bitcoinstarter type of campaign. I havn't seen a platform for Litecoin yet (hint hint  ).

[mrkubanftw]

Hello, my developing crypto-currency business, BlockBurner (mostly a blog atm, but more to come), is researching feasibility in the generation of a real FPGA Scrypt Litecoin mining appliance, specialized for the task much like the SHA256 FPGA's and ASIC's Bitcoin is about to begin running on.

To do this, there are a few things I need to know from the crypto-currency community, please answer each question if you respond to this post-

1. Do you think the market and community is ready for FPGA Litecoin?

2. Is there definite interest in FPGA Litecoin machines? Would you buy one if the price was reasonable? What is reasonable?

3. Would you pre-order one to support first round funding for prototyping and first wave production? (I'm no one but a lowly computer specialist and budding entrepreneur burned by Big Banking already, so this would have to be crowd funded to get started without a loan shark involved. You would be relying on me to deliver the goods and not squander the investment with idiotic decisions, even still you would stand to lose your pre-order through economic issues and unseen factors, so there is a risk to early adopters as with all things, though Im thinking of other incentives for early participants once it gets off the ground, what kind of incentives come to mind to make the investment more attractive to you?)

I am quite serious here and have had correspondence with a few FPGA/ASIC specialists to case exactly how much funding would be required for prototyping and limited production run. Though it would be reckless to proceed with it without getting community input, and I want to build a device that is based on your feedback so we get exactly what you want at the price you want.

What do you think? Time to elevate Litecoin to the next level as we did with Bitcoin? Would you help BlockBurner achieve this goal though community support? Should I jump off a cliff covered in green jello?


Updated 4/25

FAQ

BlockBurner news:

BlockBurner Forums

BlockBurner subReddit


The Team (still developing):

Operatr - Administration/Operatations
Cheshyr - FPGA/Project Management
Zalfrin - FPGA Development


Project Overview

Design Goals:

Modular Scrypt FPGA system
USB Connectivity
Stand alone/Rack convertible casing for scalability
Associated open source software package


I have had a few PMs and have seen questions regarding pre-orders for this project:


On Pre-Orders

Any pre-order campaign will be associated with the current stage of development. Unlike other producers there will be no pre-orders until a certain capital requirement is met meeting the estimated costs associated with that stage. At this stage it would be in generating a working prototype device. I am taking a community approach for complete transparency, every transaction would be made public knowledge as I think if you are willing to take a chance on us, you should know exactly what your money is funding and see it develop before your eyes.

This approach minimizes risk and gives a linear progression of development that is seen by the whole community.

I don't believe it is fair to hold pre-orders in a way that in a way fakes it as if it is a real product sold online, knowing full well it does not exist. I think this practice itself is fraudulent in nature itself.

Prototype Stage

Proto-adopters would be taking the bulk of the risk, as such we would work out some other kind of benefit to funding assistance at this stage. I am open to ideas on what you would like to see if you opted to be a proto-adopter.

A known price point will be known before any pre-order campaing begins with a known cap to hit, all pre-order capital going into third-party escrow until the needed amount is reached. Otherwise it would be returned to you. This could be receiving a prototype device to help with testing or some kind of future revenue sharing.

Production Stage Once a working prototype is created, we will then move on to casing actual production costs, and much like the Proto stage, will have a certain goal needed before any capital is invested.

To do this will require a crowd-sourced effort, which would be conducted through various forums as well as things like Kickstarter campaigns and the like.


Thank you in advance for your time and support,

Operatr
BlockBurner.net

While it seems like an awesome idea...

No on all accounts.

Leave gpu scripting alone. Exploit another cryptoBTC currency. Script mining was damn near created to avoid fpga and asic. 

[newtothescene]

While it seems like an awesome idea...

No on all accounts.

Leave gpu scripting alone. Exploit another cryptoBTC currency. Script mining was damn near created to avoid fpga and asic. 

Trying to hold back technology advances for [insert reason] has never worked out well in the past for those trying hold it back.  An example of this is the horse buggy vs automobile transition.  Progress will be made and we will need to move on.  It may not be today or tomorrow but change will happen.  Embracing that change puts us in a better position.  I personally do have some $$ invested into GPU mining but am aware that I need to stay abreast of new technology or risk falling behind. 

Not saying I am happy/thrilled about change, but fighting it is almost always wasted effort.

   

[seleme]

As long as it's not ASIC it's ok. ASICs are game killers and destroyers of decentralized mining.

FPGA's never did a damage to Bitcoin mining, the best ones on the market are doing slightly more than usual cards. I can't see scrypt FPGA's breaking that ratio.

[Operatr]

While it seems like an awesome idea...

No on all accounts.

Leave gpu scripting alone. Exploit another cryptoBTC currency. Script mining was damn near created to avoid fpga and asic. 

Trying to hold back technology advances for [insert reason] has never worked out well in the past for those trying hold it back.  An example of this is the horse buggy vs automobile transition.  Progress will be made and we will need to move on.  It may not be today or tomorrow but change will happen.  Embracing that change puts us in a better position.  I personally do have some $$ invested into GPU mining but am aware that I need to stay abreast of new technology or risk falling behind. 

Not saying I am happy/thrilled about change, but fighting it is almost always wasted effort.

   

This is just the natural progression. Eventually difficulty hits a height in GPU power that it becomes very difficult to scale to stay profitable with ever hungry GPUs that also put out an insane amount of heat. There is no choice but to move on to something else that is more efficient and/or more powerful.

ASIC for Scrypt is a long ways off, and Scrypt is more resistant to ASICs anyway so we'll see.

Sorry mrkubanftw, this is happening

[lame.duck]

ASIC for Scrypt is a long ways off, and Scrypt is more resistant to ASICs anyway so we'll see.

If you can do scrypt with an FPGA efficient you can do the same with ASICs. It's only a question of the minimal volume you have to produce/sell.

[jasinlee]

ASIC for Scrypt is a long ways off, and Scrypt is more resistant to ASICs anyway so we'll see.

If you can do scrypt with an FPGA efficient you can do the same with ASICs. It's only a question of the minimal volume you have to produce/sell.

Unfortunately this is true. You should keep asic on the table even if its cost prohibitive you would want to plan for 2 years away.

[Operatr]

ASIC for Scrypt is a long ways off, and Scrypt is more resistant to ASICs anyway so we'll see.

If you can do scrypt with an FPGA efficient you can do the same with ASICs. It's only a question of the minimal volume you have to produce/sell.

Unfortunately this is true. You should keep asic on the table even if its cost prohibitive you would want to plan for 2 years away.

Definitely. In the progression of things FPGA is just the next logical step for Scrypt as GPUs get cost prohibitive with the growth of the whole network. ASIC Scrypt will come someday but will probably be a little while yet as FPGAs are just hitting the table, as they once did for SHA machines. Or maybe by then something better will come along, who knows 

[digitalindustry]

ASIC for Scrypt is a long ways off, and Scrypt is more resistant to ASICs anyway so we'll see.

If you can do scrypt with an FPGA efficient you can do the same with ASICs. It's only a question of the minimal volume you have to produce/sell.

Unfortunately this is true. You should keep asic on the table even if its cost prohibitive you would want to plan for 2 years away.

Definitely. In the progression of things FPGA is just the next logical step for Scrypt as GPUs get cost prohibitive with the growth of the whole network. ASIC Scrypt will come someday but will probably be a little while yet as FPGAs are just hitting the table, as they once did for SHA machines. Or maybe by then something better will come along, who knows  

And as id like to say to both your self and jasinlee  I’m not against FPGA , not at all , its the potential to centralize that is the problem, if the multiple goes way out the window, the producers will mine with thier own device , this is a net monopoly effect also a centralization , then the market with have a concurrent effect , it will snap back at you , so i'm telling people to be careful, ASIC will be the downfall of Bitcoin , you , and they just haven't perhaps realized it yet , (i suspect some of the smarter guys have)

what the market will do is find a novel way that an FPGA can't be reconfigured in an easy manner to adjust to , i don't decide this the market does, as i said open source C++ will evolve much quicker than FPGA and ASIC, so be aware of the risks, although i notice Jasinlee mining with his already, but that’s not a net negative you guys just should be aware.

i will definitely order one based on the cost # power ratio - but just be aware that if and when the market feels that the equation needs a balance , kiss it goodbye. if they spread far and wide at a market price then that may delay this effect, but that whole profit motive tends to work against you there, irrational exuberance and the rest.

[jasinlee]

ASIC for Scrypt is a long ways off, and Scrypt is more resistant to ASICs anyway so we'll see.

If you can do scrypt with an FPGA efficient you can do the same with ASICs. It's only a question of the minimal volume you have to produce/sell.

Unfortunately this is true. You should keep asic on the table even if its cost prohibitive you would want to plan for 2 years away.

Definitely. In the progression of things FPGA is just the next logical step for Scrypt as GPUs get cost prohibitive with the growth of the whole network. ASIC Scrypt will come someday but will probably be a little while yet as FPGAs are just hitting the table, as they once did for SHA machines. Or maybe by then something better will come along, who knows  

And as id like to say to both your self and jasinlee  I’m not against FPGA , not at all , its the potential to centralize that is the problem, if the multiple goes way out the window, the producers will mine with thier own device , this is a net monopoly effect also a centralization , then the market with have a concurrent effect , it will snap back at you , so i'm telling people to be careful, ASIC will be the downfall of Bitcoin , you , and they just haven't perhaps realized it yet , (i suspect some of the smarter guys have)

what the market will do is find a novel way that an FPGA can't be reconfigured in an easy manner to adjust to , i don't decide this the market does, as i said open source C++ will evolve much quicker than FPGA and ASIC, so be aware of the risks, although i notice Jasinlee mining with his already, but that’s not a net negative you guys just should be aware.

i will definitely order one based on the cost # power ratio - but just be aware that if and when the market feels that the equation needs a balance , kiss it goodbye. if they spread far and wide at a market price then that may delay this effect, but that whole profit motive tends to work against you there, irrational exuberance and the rest.

As you may have read already, we do not plan on distributing massive amount of fpgas and we will in the end offer our design in open source. And per laseeks recommendation and our spitballing we decided it would be best to have a hard limit to how many we carry at any given time. I agree the danger of a 51% (even if we were only solo mining) is possible and should be avoided at all cost.

[WindMaster]

As you may have read already, we do not plan on distributing massive amount of fpgas and we will in the end offer our design in open source. And per laseeks recommendation and our spitballing we decided it would be best to have a hard limit to how many we carry at any given time. I agree the danger of a 51% (even if we were only solo mining) is possible and should be avoided at all cost.

I've seen you mention this one before (recommending your FPGA design, if/when it happens, should not be used on pools), but I've had trouble following the logic.  If your hash rate per unit of up-front hardware cost is the same or worse than GPU's (and given my background on this topic, I have good reason to bet on worse), there's no particular 51% danger here.  Someone could equally well build a GPU farm for the same or lower cost if that was their goal.  Recovering ROI from lower power consumption over the long term for choosing an FPGA approach over a GPU approach would make no sense for someone attempting a 51% attack.

I think the only situation where there's a 51% concern from the general public's use of any hypothetical FPGA implementation (and not, say, a PayPal-funded 51% attack) is if you're claiming you have an FPGA approach that achieves a very high performance advantage over GPU's per unit of hardware cost.  I personally think you have an uphill battle even hitting the GPU performance/cost ratio.  Time will tell though.

I guarantee Sapphire, Gigabyte, EFX, etc.. will manufacture and stock larger quantities of boards containing Radeon GPU's than you'll likely have a market for in the Litecoin world!

[jasinlee]

Time will tell, but as for the 51% that is also time will tell as we have to see what the network looks by the time we release them.

[WindMaster]

I agree the danger of a 51% (even if we were only solo mining) is possible and should be avoided at all cost.

To help everyone put this in perspective, to achieve >50% of the network hash rate while solo mining Litecoin, it would currently be necessary to fire up a GPU farm of around 23,000 Radeon 7950's.  Assuming 6 GPU's per motherboard, that would be around 3830 mining rigs.  So, the current bar for attacking Litecoin with GPU's would be around $6,670,000 for the GPU's alone before adding in additional support components or a facility and support infrastructure to house the operation.

Disclaimer - Someone willing to invest that amount would probably just fund the development of PCIe breakout/bridge boards that drive significantly more than 6 GPU's per motherboard though, so the motherboard count above is only based on off-the-shelf components and PCIe riser cables.  We prototyped a PCIe x16 to 16 PCIe x16 slot breakout board (only 1 lane actually connected per x16 slot) using an off-the-shelf PCIe bridge IC on a 4 layer board, and it didn't cost much to achieve operation of 16 GPU's per motherboard.  It certainly cost less than the extra motherboards/CPU's/RAM that would otherwise have been needed.

Note - The cost to design, tape-out a prototype ASIC, get in with a wafer aggregation service (like MOSIS) to fabricate a few dozen of your prototype dies, and have them diced and packaged, is well under $1 million.  If someone has a better approach for calculating scrypt that isn't bottlenecked on external memory bandwidth and were aiming at a business that would otherwise possess enough FPGA-based boards to 51% Litecoin, they would actually be way way ahead financially to go the ASIC route right from the start.  FPGA's are very costly compared to raw die area per unit of logic area, especially at high quantities.  Almost all the cost in developing an ASIC is up-front, after that it's dirt cheap to scale the quantities up.

[ryanb]

i am very interested in the project and if there is a working prototype i am ready to preorder

hopefully it will be here before BFL since i am not counting on making any profit of what i purchased from them by the time they deliver.

[digitalindustry]

As you may have read already, we do not plan on distributing massive amount of fpgas and we will in the end offer our design in open source. And per laseeks recommendation and our spitballing we decided it would be best to have a hard limit to how many we carry at any given time. I agree the danger of a 51% (even if we were only solo mining) is possible and should be avoided at all cost.

you misunderstand , i'm not actually talking about a 51% attack, i'm talking about the loss of market confidence.

something that seems to be hard for people to understand.. (which is fine if you don't understand it)

but market confidence is the only thing that keeps any value in any entity / currency .

if the market expects "decentralized" and gets " 20 guys that own ASICS" or even "100 guys that own FPGA"  that is a doomed market.

the result is that energy does not die it just changes form = evolution = market regains confidence, = FPGA obsolete (if it's provable)

51% attack is nothing , if that entity dies , that actually helps the evolution , and speeds up the demise of the centralization.

[digitalindustry]

jasinlee

Is in fact a more honest version of BFL in that those guys developed the device and are mining with it , but in cost return ratio , they didn't make out like BFL , because of the inefficiency of the sCrypt algo

also they didn't take customers orders , but just like BFL , they will ship when the benefit equation rests on them shipping, perhaps when a lot of the alts are dead and/or LTC drops in price.

if BTC dropped to $15 and stabilized , every BFL order would be shipped next week.

don't take offence to that jasinlee - you are just doing what benefits you , and that's a good thing , that is the free market.

This all helps the evolution of the entity .

[jasinlee]

Market confidence? Thats not going to happen. (Too many things coming out that will bolster ltc price/confidence) As for the mining, I dont know why you think I said we were mining yet...we arent. Engineering samples does not mean running a full mining operation. Just because we have scrypt running on an fpga does not mean we are done with optimizations. Ask blockburner I am sure he is hitting the same thing on his end. We have probably 2 redesigns necessary before we order a mass production of our fpgas.

As for the mining early, yeah I will be, who wouldnt want to be able to pay their employees, further development, pay rent, eat, etc.

But all that will be accounted for along the way, we are just making sure we have a product to sell before we go taking peoples money is all.  But dont worry I dont take offense, there is just a misunderstanding somewhere along the lines.

My guess is we wont be up and mining until between Aug-Octo. based on the lead times we have been given for the devices we are going to build.