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Author Topic: Kill the Politics forum  (Read 8711 times)
Karmicads
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June 19, 2011, 05:43:40 AM
 #121

I got some fellow small business owners interested enough to check out, first they could not post or ask any questions (awesome move that), then once they dug around the tax evasion and "lets overthrow the government" derp scared them off.

Good grief!! Shocked Those poor little things. I do hope they were wearing their 'big girl' Pull-ups. Those 'business tycoon' types, can be such delicate little treasures. Next time you might like to let the mods know you're sending guests, so they can have the place sanitized and renovated to look like a part of the Microsoft PR website. Cheesy

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Most of us would not think of plastering our political party logo on our business.

Most of us are far too selfish and greedy to stand by our convictions and openly discuss our true values. The fear of what is good for our own personal profit/resume/social standing etc, does have a lamentable tendency towards cognitive dissonance, tempting us to rationalize our motives and decide what is 'best', is the thing that makes the most profit or popularity for me. Of course, nobody is required to place a political logo on their business. Your business colleges are not required to adopt any particular political view (even if it is predominant here), let alone endorse it with a badge of honor, simply because they happen to use bitcoin. Are they really so intellectually challenged, that they can't differentiate between using a piece of software and endorsing/embracing a political ethos? Fortunately for them, the very ethos that underpins the development of this software and the whole open source movement for that matter, also happens to emancipate them from being required, by external forces (monopolies governments) to endorse anything.
 
Who is expecting them to nail their flag to the mast? Let me guess. I know!! It's the stigma and public perception factor isn't it?

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As far as customers are concerned, Bitcoin.org is the face of Bitcoin. The two are largely inseparable.

Ahhh! Thought so. Once again, those who are incapable of separating a community and its (individuals) political values, from the piece of software it uses/endorses, are conduits of a deplorable social problem. I say conduits, because the problem is deeper. They are prone to petty whims and vanity and vexing psychological concern like 'what will the neighbors think' and 'ew... that's yellow, nobody likes yellow things anymore'. The throngs of vacuous automaton like consumers, hungry for populist conformity, irrepressible gluttony and who need to be told what to think, what to believe, what values to uphold and a myriad of petty, voguish little conceits, which fill them with programed piety, conditioned self-worth and indoctrinated allegiances. Norms and fragile egos that collude to endorse them, must be conserved as the precious treasures of humanity. The "done thing", they cry. It isn't the 'done thing'.  So when they see somebody, who happens to be doing something they happen to associate with evil/wrong/bad or... 'not the done thing', it's not just the actual thing they perceive is wrong, but also anything or anyone to do with it or standing too close to it. Guilt by association.

We already have a front of spin doctors pushing the line that bitcoin is used to buy illicit drugs. well whop-de-do. Government cash is also used to buy illicit drugs. Are your pantie piddling business associates, also decrying the guilt by association they will have to endure, because the money they hungrily clutch at already, is used to finance the black market drug trade. HEY! That was started and fueled by the cash economy and granted it's premium profits by the war on drugs making it massively lucrative. No?  I suspect they don't recoil from government cash, because society isn't programed to despise it. They go along with what's good for them. Pandering to the hoards of ignorant sheeple and helping to reinforce their stupid prejudices and petty egocentric norms.

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You come here to get the client software, and linking to it or advocating it leads your customers (as well as others) to think that you subscribe the the values expressed here.

Linking to it and advocating it huh? That's what leads to people thinking wha... WTF? It's such a pity to have to admit, that there may be some element of truth to this claim. You make it sound so 'par for the course', I most like you understand or sympathize with this Neanderthal tribalism. I don't know that this 'public perception' is anywhere near as prevalent as you suggest; at least, not if you think it's a fatal detriment to the eventual widespread acceptance of bitcoin. I think bitcoin will at least become extensive as an on-line currency and that will be success enough. I also think it will do so, whether we pander to these conformist, spin-doctored populist PR charades you seem to endorse. My guess is that there are well more than enough people out there, who are not so intellectually lobotomized, by coercive social programming, that they need everything they see, to be sanitized and commercialized, with a squeaky plastic facade, of conformist mass marketing bullshit.

What anybody with a modicum of intelligence should be aware of, is that bitcoin isn't a commercial product. Nor is it a brand or a coercively marketed corporate entity. How hard is it to realize, that these forums are inhabited by INDIVIDUALS? Each and every one of us, is the vehicle of a separate individual value system. I only have to worry about how, whatever I post reflects on me. I don't expect anybody who can make their own breakfast, to be incapable of understanding that whatever I might say, should not be taken as YOUR opinion. Nor should YOUR values be expected to stand for anything other than your values. This is a shamelessly low blow, to pitch an issue of such petty minded appeal to the most lamentable vices of mass ignorance.

There are too many people who expect you to think what they think, eat what they eat, do what they do and wear what they wear. The need belong and 'fit in', to satisfy their fragile ego and be given recognition in a kin group and so they conform and adopt the prevailing trends and norm of their identity group. Like little monkeys they mimic each other because, 'if I'm like you, you are more likely to like me'. We establish norm just to support social bonding, but anybody doing something different is less acceptable.This is how social groups are manipulated. this the basis of fear about anything different and 'weird' it fuels social conflict, bigotry and war. Here it's just being promoted to support bigotry and censorship. The 'people won't like it' war cry, is a lot like the 'not the done thing' motive. It's fueled by ego-paranoid petty and debilitating human emotions. You do it or don't do it, because everybody else wants you to do it, or not.

The problem lies not with people who come here to discuss their thoughts freely, but with those who can't keep their own prejudices to themselves. People who cant say 'it's none of my business' also have a hard time with saying "that's you opinion and we can agree to differ". Those ones, go around demanding others either agree with them, else they don't deserve to speak their mind. Many places (like this) have already made provisions for those people. They are granted the same rights as everybody else. Wanting to shut people up because you don't like what they have to say is called censorship. It may be the next worst thing to outright bloody war except that censorship fuels ignorance and ignorance causes war. Freedom of speech is the most fundamental and precious liberty we posses. It enables us to engage in constructive criticism and undermine deception and coercion.

The libertarian values you seek to undermine, by calling for the politics forum to be closed, could only be a threat to those who would benefit from harnessing the ignorance of the lowest common denominator. It's places like this that people can come, to learn about the kind of liberties and freedom that are absolutely intrinsic to the open source movement and the grass roots projects like bitcoin, which it has spawned. You don't like what people are talking about in the politics section? If you don't agree you are free to do so. If you want to say you disagree, you are also free to do so. If you don't want to read the political content, or perhaps you just cant make any cogent argument to support your censorial bias, well then, you don't have to go in there. The same goes for all the people, who you think will be so scared they will have to run away from the freedom of open discussion. If there is an argument to make about any topics in there, then go and make your point to address the issue at hand. Argue against the topics if you wish, but not the fact that they exist at all. 


What kind of crazy business owner is going to link their business to a site and brand that advocates tax evasion and the overthrow of the government?
 

One who understands that his businesses is not being represented in any way by the individual people of this forum or their ideological views. Supported? Yes Educated? emancipated? Yes Represented? NO. In case it isn't clear yet, this is a community and when people come to a community place of discussion, they should have no reason to expect anybody to represent anything but themselves. For those who don't get the idea, that every individual can speak for him or her self, then it's damn well time that they DID. This is far more serious than an image problem with the forum. It's an issue that cuts to the heart, very of the mental health of society. Some people just cant think for themselves as individuals. They cant like what they themselves like, believe what they themselves believe, want what they themselves want. They've have been brainwashed and indoctrinated as blind little consumer sheep, on the corporate ranch. So when they meet people they project their own expectations onto that other person. That other person uses bitcoin? 'Well... they must think like everybody elde who uses bitcoin'. 'Some people buy drugs with bitcoin - he's probably a heroin addict and a criminal'.

As for toppling governments. Whether you like it or not, there is going to be a revolution in political governance, just like the one in economics bitcoin has already begun. Government will inevitably be one that is OF the people and BY the people. It will be globalized and our legislation will be tabled and thrashed out on forums much like this, while the voting system will likely be done over a P2P network, very similar to bitcoin. People had better pull their heads out of their ass, learn a bit about what's going on in the world and make some contribution to the collective welfare of society. Governments WILL be toppled, it's not a matter of IF, but WHEN. It seems, you would have the education resources that people need, to help them escape from their mindless fog of oppressive manipulation, removed.

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Yes, Bitcoin MAY change things- but it will never get a chance if people don't keep their politics on political web forums. You may be able to get people to adopt your currency- but not if you insist on linking it to your politics.

The MOST important thing that it would change, would be as a result of those libertarian values it empowers, through the decentralization and the finite supply, that will make the political paradigm shift possible and allow freedom from corporate tyranny. So the only thing that is wrong with what you said there, is that the exact opposite is true. The very fact that you don't want people exposed to politics is a deplorable attitude. People need to become involved with and learn about it. We need to foster free speech and learn use our mind and ideas as currency also. Until people snap out of their state regulated, corporate funded fog, of insular, materialist consumer apathy and learn what they need to know, to take mutual responsibility for representative governance, we will never have a fair system. If there is a way for bitcoin to fail, it would be at the hands of government. We are in for a rough ride if we are not prepared to nip this in the bud and empower ourselves. This forum, is the center of the universe in terms of it's political potential to bootstrap a new democratic system and the big political battle with government, will happen whether we like it or not if bitcoin is successful enough to be common currency beyond the net.

Pulling the plug on the politics forum, would only be about the stupidest thing anybody ever did.  Roll Eyes

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June 19, 2011, 06:37:16 AM
 #122

Karmicads- your post was articulate, detailed, addressed specific points with clear lines of reasoning- and it would be absolutely wonderful if more people shared your values. I admire your faith in not just the intelligence of large groups of people acting in concert, but your confidence in their willingness to read deeply and educate themselves. Yes I agree, businesses are mostly concerned with making money. Whether we still need their participation regardless is where our viewpoints differ.

I'm sure all of the political statements are well reasoned and sound- the issue is venue. I am not well read enough to comment on much of the political discussion so I keep my fingers off the keyboard in reference to them.

I do know what is marketable, what it palatable, how small changes in presentation and language can make a massive difference in adoption. The largest brand in the world provides brown sugar water- and even if your brown sugar water is Open-Source, tastes better and will free the masses from the tyrannical price fixing of Coca-Cola- you still can't call it brown sugar water when you want people to drink it.

Branding- how something is presented, it's message and narrative- beats the better product nearly every time.  Even if you think there is no correlation to Bitcoin, look at what the De beers marketing campaign did to diamond prices starting in 1939. I understand you think that the masses instantly will see that Bitcoin is not a brand, not a competitor to Paypal- lets hope that’s the case. Because if it is perceived as a brand, it's pitch- while factual, is far from persuasive.
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June 19, 2011, 06:49:52 AM
 #123

It seems the embarrassing IRC logs are "offline":
http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2011/06/15/3#l1062344

That's right- don't fix the problem, just hide the evidence.

I had an IT buddy explain an interesting point to me. Usually it's the Geeks that find vulnerabilities in the projects code- then the Public Relations/Business types figure "security in obscurity" try to hush it up, or attack the Geeks who found it- rather than get the hole patched.

Here we have a gaping vulnerability in the Public Relations policy and now the Geeks, rather than patch it up are similarly hoping for "security in obscurity", and attacking the Public Relations/Business types who pointed it out Huh

Reposted the logs here.




I'd like to thank the Politicals for joining in this thread and so eloquently illustrating the cause of our concerns.


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June 19, 2011, 07:08:17 AM
 #124

yawn - this debate is still going on? who loses if the btc.org forums become strictly development-oriented shop talk and other forums bloom in other places. There's 30 other forums I can go to to argue libertarian-socialism vs libertarian-capitalism. Hell, a great majority of TSR talk has already been moved to hidden services, etc. Honestly, my concerns are more about the forums becoming completely unnavigable in all respects -- just too much noise and too many posters on too many topics -- than any particualr content. though I sympathize with those concerns as well.
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June 19, 2011, 09:44:52 AM
 #125

Afghans drove out every major world power.  The Romans, The Greeks, the Russians,  they are still working on us, but my money is on them.


By that kind of logic, I have defeated my math prof. Roll Eyes

The don't defeat, they just persevere without changing and have the inherent low value of their landmass cause every half-sane opponent to leave, then emerge from hiding, return to their old ways and that's it.

They are sociopolitical equivalent of a chemical system in a very low energy state. Much like such a chemical system they are unlikely to change on their own and would require tremendous energy input just to change them a little bit, and perhaps even more energy and a lot of know-how to change them in a manner that would be somewhat stable and won't immediately revert to old status quo upon being left unattended.

In other words, Afghani status quo seems pretty close to the maximum devastation a military opponent could inflict on a different society, thus attempts to alter them via force are usually fruitless and eventually just run out of steam.
It seems the embarrassing IRC logs are "offline":
http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2011/06/15/3#l1062344

That's right- don't fix the problem, just hide the evidence.

I had an IT buddy explain an interesting point to me. Usually it's the Geeks that find vulnerabilities in the projects code- then the Public Relations/Business types figure "security in obscurity" try to hush it up, or attack the Geeks who found it- rather than get the hole patched.

Here we have a gaping vulnerability in the Public Relations policy and now the Geeks, rather than patch it up are similarly hoping for "security in obscurity", and attacking the Public Relations/Business types who pointed it out Huh

Reposted the logs here.




I'd like to thank the Politicals for joining in this thread and so eloquently illustrating the cause of our concerns.

PR "vulnerabilities" operate differently from the ones that happen in the wonderful realm of computer code, methinks.

Disclosure is the very vector by which they do damage so limiting disclosure is a legitimate PR response.

Having said that, I have come to the idea that individuals so concerned could join efforts in order to provide the Politically Inclined Users with a better, more liberal platform to carry out their discourse and incentivize them to relocate that discourse away from "main" forum and into said more liberal platform.

P.S.:
Banning search engines from the Politics forum is entirely reasonable and should be done.
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June 19, 2011, 03:54:56 PM
 #126

I wonder if any of you know what text was in the blockchain's genesis block.
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June 19, 2011, 04:26:48 PM
 #127

Good grief!! Shocked Those poor little things. I do hope they were wearing their 'big girl' Pull-ups. Those 'business tycoon' types, can be such delicate little treasures. Next time you might like to let the mods know you're sending guests, so they can have the place sanitized and renovated to look like a part of the Microsoft PR website. Cheesy

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Are they really so intellectually challenged, that they can't differentiate between using a piece of software and endorsing/embracing a political ethos?

Yes, they really are that delicate and that intellectually challenged. Are you saying with this "Fuck them, we don't need them." ?

I wonder if any of you know what text was in the blockchain's genesis block.

Why do you care what Satoshi thinks? He is irrelevant now. An appeal to authority from someone who thinks himself a libertarian is pretty damn ridiculous is my opinion.

I'll just leave here for both of you:

I think most of you need to stop posting now, and go read Sun Tzu's The Art of War.
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June 19, 2011, 05:21:34 PM
 #128

Why do you care what Satoshi thinks? He is irrelevant now. An appeal to authority from someone who thinks himself a libertarian is pretty damn ridiculous is my opinion.

I agree that an appeal to authority coming from a Libertarian would be pretty ridiculous. Which is why you'd think that would be enough to stop you from jumping to such an absurd conclusion but unfortunately not. Somehow you managed to twist a simple question into an appeal to authority even while acknowledging how ridiculous it would be coming from me. That's pretty impressive.

Now, would you like to know what my point actually was in asking that question or would you like to just keep putting words in my mouth?
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June 19, 2011, 06:42:21 PM
 #129

after eating a nice medium ribeye

The extremist politics are one thing, but you expect us to abide overcooked meat?!  Tongue
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June 19, 2011, 06:53:42 PM
 #130

You guys don't get. Bitcoin is its own subculture, with its social mores and institution. We are merchants, buyers, and sellers in this particular world we called the Bitcoin community.

When you try to exterminate politics and other sections, you are trying to exterminate and make the bitcoin culture unoffensive and suitable to the masses. The early adopters were never the masses of the US, the republicans or the democrats. Then we become dull and uninteresting because now the culture suits the masses. That kill the specialness and uniqueness of the bitcoin community.

The early adopters bring a kind of knowledge and wisdom that's not available to newbies, in additional to the political yuckiness. They teaches in debate and they run businesses, startup, and experiments within the bitcoin economy. Then they are gone, their knowledge not accessible to newbies because they are on some other obscure forum somewhere after being censored.

There are those who wishes to ban the yuckiness of the forum, but they also ban the pioneers who settle this town when bitcoin is still(and still is) a yucky concept.

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June 19, 2011, 07:22:10 PM
 #131

I support the removal of the politics sub-forum. There are lots of other options for holding those discussions.
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June 19, 2011, 08:08:55 PM
 #132

Now, would you like to know what my point actually was in asking that question or would you like to just keep putting words in my mouth?

Sure, I'd like to know. I assumed you were clearly inferring an appeal to authority but since you weren't I take my words back.  

When you try to exterminate politics and other sections, you are trying to exterminate and make the bitcoin culture unoffensive and suitable to the masses.

Yeah, that's exactly what we want to do. Don't you want the masses to use Bitcoin?
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June 19, 2011, 08:14:43 PM
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When you try to exterminate politics and other sections, you are trying to exterminate and make the bitcoin culture unoffensive and suitable to the masses.

Yeah, that's exactly what we want to do. Don't you want the masses to use Bitcoin?

I prefer to build a solid community that support bitcoin, which will help bitcoin retain its value. Masses of people who don't care about bitcoin is not the way to go.

Eventually, bitcoin usage will goes mainstream as the bitcoin economy become more attractive.

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June 19, 2011, 08:29:42 PM
 #134

I prefer to build a solid community that support bitcoin, which will help bitcoin retain its value. Masses of people who don't care about bitcoin is not the way to go.

Eventually, bitcoin usage will goes mainstream as the bitcoin economy become more attractive.

It is possible to build a solid community based on self interest (namely profit) instead of our anarchist ideology which alienates most other people. The bigger the numbers, the more solid is the community in my opinion.
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June 19, 2011, 09:03:55 PM
 #135

Ok, let me try to get what's going on in this thread. OP  Jessy Kang, the Madam whore who runs an SM and Bondage business(check out her website) with several "ladies" in NY is concerned that respectable businessmen will be scared away from using bitcoin because of libertarian extremist wackos on the politics forum.  And that respectable and completely legal business's like hers wouldn't be caught dead using bitcoin. She is now no longer accepting bit coin for this reason.  Am I getting this right so far?

Don't get me wrong, I found many of her posts excellent, and this is one of the best threads I've ever come across.  She truly is an"intellectual whore". Even though I am a life long libertarian,  I for one am in favor of at least moderating the politics board because other unmoderated libertarian boards I've been on have degenerated into Neo-Nazi, racist, and antisemitic playgrounds.

That being said, I first heard of bitcoin on the Max Keiser show.  And really got interested when I heard about the Silk Road thing.  I'm into bitcoin because it is about Freedom (I hope) and is revolutionary.  That's the attraction for me and probably lots of other people who come to bitcoin.  I wonder what attracted Ms Kang to bitcoin.  Perhaps she's looking to get some of those presumably rich bitcoin administrators as clients?  Just wondering.  I can't really see her trying to get her existing clients to use bitcoin that much although maybe the (supposed) anonymity would be an attraction in some cases.  Those clients would have to be patient and into bitcoin though because it takes some effort at this point to locate the amount of coins Ms Kang would demand for her services.  Perhaps she could enlighten me.
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June 19, 2011, 09:58:05 PM
 #136

Ok, let me try to get what's going on in this thread. OP  Jessy Kang, the Madam whore who runs an SM and Bondage business(check out her website) with several "ladies" in NY is concerned that respectable businessmen will be scared away from using bitcoin because of libertarian extremist wackos on the politics forum.  And that respectable and completely legal business's like hers wouldn't be caught dead using bitcoin. She is now no longer accepting bit coin for this reason.  Am I getting this right so far?

Your gauche attempt at ad-hominem aside, BDSM is legal in most jurisdictions (and pretty awesome, lol Wink ) while tax evasion and subversion of government is not legal in any jurisdiction I am aware of, not even in Somalia (and AFAIK, Somalian authorities, the ones often derisively referred to as "warlords", take tax collection very very seriously)

And really got interested when I heard about the Silk Road thing.  I'm into bitcoin because it is about Freedom (I hope) and is revolutionary.

I suggest you re-read the bitcoin papers.

Bitcoin is traceable, even if not particularly easily so, so it hardly "free as wind" (I do intend to do something about that, so stand by for updates  Grin)

I prefer to build a solid community that support bitcoin, which will help bitcoin retain its value. Masses of people who don't care about bitcoin is not the way to go.

Eventually, bitcoin usage will goes mainstream as the bitcoin economy become more attractive.

It is possible to build a solid community based on self interest (namely profit) instead of our anarchist ideology which alienates most other people. The bigger the numbers, the more solid is the community in my opinion.

Word.

I'd sign every single word in  JohnDoe's post.

 
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June 19, 2011, 09:59:45 PM
 #137

Sure, I'd like to know. I assumed you were clearly inferring an appeal to authority but since you weren't I take my words back.

My point was, the genesis block contains a somewhat politically charged message and therefore the entire blockchain and project itself is tainted by its ideological beginnings. If you're really worried about scaring people away then you'd need to reboot the entire project.
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June 19, 2011, 10:06:14 PM
 #138

Sure, I'd like to know. I assumed you were clearly inferring an appeal to authority but since you weren't I take my words back.

My point was, the genesis block contains a somewhat politically charged message and therefore the entire blockchain and project itself is tainted by its ideological beginnings. If you're really worried about scaring people away then you'd need to reboot the entire project.

As a person with some background in marketing of fairly politically touchy products, I assure you that there is a world of difference between [redneck]"gee shucks, there's some weirdo words that sound a bit anarchistish  buried  in  the sorc'rous mathematications that underpin this cow-pootor thingus"[/redneck], and people openly expressing disdain for existing political framework and discussing methodologies of blatantly subversive acts (such as illicit drug trade and tax evasion) on your official forum.
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June 19, 2011, 10:12:06 PM
 #139

My point was, the genesis block contains a somewhat politically charged message and therefore the entire blockchain and project itself is tainted by its ideological beginnings. If you're really worried about scaring people away then you'd need to reboot the entire project.
Yes, because no project has ever changed direction mid stride.  Grin

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June 19, 2011, 10:31:21 PM
 #140

[redneck]"gee shucks, there's some weirdo words that sound a bit anarchistish  buried  in  the sorc'rous mathematications that underpin this cow-pootor thingus"[/redneck]

I agree that it's a world of difference, for now, but eventually someone's going to point this out to the media and they'll run with it. My point still stands though. If you want a politically neutral technology, this ain't it. The very idea of free market money is already politically charged in itself. Good luck with your petition. I'll be in the politics section if you need me.
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