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Author Topic: Kill the Politics forum  (Read 18569 times)
Anonymous
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June 21, 2011, 08:21:25 PM
 #161

Nobody speaks for Bitcoin as a whole. Not even the forum staff. It's not a company. It's a product used by all. The views of its users represent Bitcoin.

I know. I was thinking about it more like a PR move than anything.

I do believe that this forum is not making a great service to Bitcoin.

Eh, I think we are only going to achieve a personable forum is if we take out all discussion and limit it to tech support. That's what Nintendo did a few years back. They certainly got the professional atmosphere they desired but it reeks normalcy and sterility.
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The Script
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June 21, 2011, 08:37:23 PM
 #162

Jessy, do me a personal favour and don't ever complement Karmicads again. That was the longest post I've ever seen in a forum.  Tongue
Was trying to be civil, just got more name calling for my trouble. I don't particularly object to juvenile insults (Adult professionals are fair game), but it just validates and encourages a decline is substantive dialog. Saying I'm dumb/whorish/amoral etc. is not an argument.

I know.  I am not criticizing you, I'm just amused.  You gave Karmicads a pat on the head and he got excited and posted a 6000+ word response.  I think you have been presenting your views very calmly, rationally and without malice.  You've also handled the immature responses and jeering replies very well.  I apologize for the fact that so many members of this forum seem to be incapable of accepting opinions different than theirs without resorting to ad hominems, name-calling and other school-yard behaviour. I'm not sure that I agree with you, but I appreciate your civil, logical approach to the issue.
Anonymous
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June 21, 2011, 08:38:31 PM
 #163

Jessy, do me a personal favour and don't ever complement Karmicads again. That was the longest post I've ever seen in a forum.  Tongue
Was trying to be civil, just got more name calling for my trouble. I don't particularly object to juvenile insults (Adult professionals are fair game), but it just validates and encourages a decline is substantive dialog. Saying I'm dumb/whorish/amoral etc. is not an argument.

I know.  I am not criticizing you, I'm just amused.  You gave Karmicads a pat on the head and he got excited and posted a 6000+ word response.  I think you have been presenting your views very calmly, rationally and without malice.  You've also handled the immature responses and jeering replies very well.  I apologize for the fact that so many members of this forum seem to be incapable of accepting opinions different than theirs without resorting to ad hominems, name-calling and other school-yard behaviour. I'm not sure that I agree with you, but I appreciate your civil, logical approach to the issue.


Whiteknight.  Apologize for only yourself, you self-righteous pedant.
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June 21, 2011, 08:44:43 PM
 #164

Eh, I think we are only going to achieve a personable forum is if we take out all discussion and limit it to tech support. That's what Nintendo did a few years back. They certainly got the professional atmosphere they desired but it reeks normalcy and sterility.

Then maybe Jessy Kang idea about closing the Economic subforum is not such a bad idea. I really dont know exactly what but something eneds to be done with this forum.
Anonymous
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June 21, 2011, 08:50:52 PM
 #165

Eh, I think we are only going to achieve a personable forum is if we take out all discussion and limit it to tech support. That's what Nintendo did a few years back. They certainly got the professional atmosphere they desired but it reeks normalcy and sterility.

Then maybe Jessy Kang idea about closing the Economic subforum is not such a bad idea. I really dont know exactly what but something eneds to be done with this forum.
Meh, I think we should look at this more carefully. Fixing things only in the name of fixing things tends to lead to more undesirable results.
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June 21, 2011, 09:42:03 PM
 #166

Jessy, do me a personal favour and don't ever complement Karmicads again. That was the longest post I've ever seen in a forum.  Tongue
Was trying to be civil, just got more name calling for my trouble. I don't particularly object to juvenile insults (Adult professionals are fair game), but it just validates and encourages a decline is substantive dialog. Saying I'm dumb/whorish/amoral etc. is not an argument.

I know.  I am not criticizing you, I'm just amused.  You gave Karmicads a pat on the head and he got excited and posted a 6000+ word response.  I think you have been presenting your views very calmly, rationally and without malice.  You've also handled the immature responses and jeering replies very well.  I apologize for the fact that so many members of this forum seem to be incapable of accepting opinions different than theirs without resorting to ad hominems, name-calling and other school-yard behaviour. I'm not sure that I agree with you, but I appreciate your civil, logical approach to the issue.


Whiteknight.  Apologize for only yourself, you self-righteous pedant.

Don't take my post personally.  Also, count to ten before you reply.  You tend to respond out of blind emotion, though, I've seen you apologize when you were in the wrong before, which is admirable.

I will amend my statement to "I am sorry that so many members of this forum....".  That way I am not apologizing for anyone. 
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June 21, 2011, 11:50:43 PM
 #167


Why does Atlas keep censoring my threads?

Because your threads are full of shit would be my first guess.

Remember, "bearded guys in the van down by the river" generally don't have lots of internet access...I find it hard to see how people posting on the forum (and *gasp* expressing their own view!) give you the impression of bearded guys in the van down by the river.  

1)WhattheFUCK does having a beard have to do with anything?

2)Exactly how many bearded guys living in vans do you personally know?  Especially to the level of having actually had a political discussion with them?  I think you are just pulling stuff out of your pussy again and trying to use it to justify censorship.

Did you read the disclaimer/TOS when you signed on to this forum?
There are other places you can direct your erm. . ."clients" . . .seriously though, if people wanna buy hookers and blow with bitcoin, why should they have an issue with anti-government discussion?

If it really bothers you that much, refer folks SOMEPLACE ELSE. . . .maybe

http://bitcoinme.com/ ?

Hippy Anarchy
*shrug*
Karmicads
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June 22, 2011, 01:16:45 AM
 #168

Jessy, do me a personal favour and don't ever complement Karmicads again. That was the longest post I've ever seen in a forum.  Tongue

Hmmm... Yeah. I know I was a little windy TS. I sometime have a fair bit to say and just want to deliberate, for however long it takes to say what I need to say. New points and analogies often arise as I write. Having an attention disorder and an aversion to being misunderstood, only makes me more verbose.

Was trying to be civil, just got more name calling for my trouble.

Are you kidding me Jessy?  Huh Really? After the best part of a whole day's writing, to detail the value of the Politics forum and to detail a far bigger picture that needs to be considered, as a lot more serious and important, than your concern about the image which business people wish to portray to their would-be victims, and not only do you falsely assert that I was denigrating you, but you also imply that was the sole message of my (what I would have considered) extremely substantive post.

Quote
I don't particularly object to juvenile insults...

Thats Funny, I thought you just did. If you had apparently demonstrated some remarkable feat of humility, by turning a blind eye, rather that taking issue, with someones 'unreasonable' criticism, or unconstructive , then I would be the first to admire the commendable restraint of your temperament. If you want to take credit for being so restrained, by gloating that you are, while at the same time, pointing out that the remarks you "don't particularly object to" were "juvenile insults", then, I regret to inform you, that you could be not be more comically ironic, if you shoot yourself in the foot, while giving a lecture on gun safety.

Quote
(Adult professionals are fair game), but it just validates and encourages a decline is substantive dialog.

What, ACTUALLY DOES encourage "a decline [in] substantive dialog", is making unreferenced accusations, that you have been insulted, indeed positing this alleged opprobrium (which you have already claimed you don't particularly object to), as if it were a deliberate, malicious, character assassination, yet you foist this contention, without addressing the comment/remark in question.

Clearly it's YOU Jessy Kang, who would rather have a substance free, declining dialog. In particular, with the shrill accusations of 'juvenile insult', you also seem to be inflaming the emotive rhetoric and trying to provoke hostility. If you were such a noble and tolerant sport, then instead of making an unsubstantiated accusation, of having been maliciously lambasted, by my allegedly 'juvenile insult', you might have instead, pointed out specifically what this insult is (by directly quoting it) and why it is you consider it so unjust and juvenile. Obviously it would be easy then, to put the issue in context and I or anybody else, could attempt a fair assessment. 

I make a VERY stringent effort, I think it's fair to say, that if I am going to criticize anybody, I go to whatever length necessary, to give full disclosure of my justifications and address the issue head on. I don't care very much at all, for thoughtless derision and senseless cruelty, to debase anybody, for the sake of pushing their buttons and making them feel bad. If I had wanted to do nothing more than level a juvenile insult at you, I would think, I could have come up with a much stronger flavor of vitriol, an taken far less time, to post a detailed assessment of your proposal and why I think it's so disagreeable. If I happen to express my contempt or disapproval, then at least I care enough to be honest and even more so to show my justification.

For what it's worth, it doesn't make a tinkers damn of difference what I think about you. I have no idea why anybody considers any remark an insult unless they can furnish some measure, for why they deserve any more respect than they are being offered. In any case, playing the victim card and tolerant sage all at once, while failing to mention any specific content, is hardly prone to help address any issue, or foster any 'substantive dialog'. By such means, the dialog I already had been servicing with more than my fare share of substance, may be hijacked, by your plaint of personal offense, in effort to divert it towards one of those squabbles about the debate itself.

You see? This is the sort of divisive, reactionary tactics, that do tend to cause emotional reactions and substance free squabbles. Take a detailed constructive criticism, ignore the details in question and make an emotive appeal, to foist an accusation, that itself has explosive potential for emotive reactionary response. I won't be manipulated into petty bickering. If you don't want to play silly little mind games, and degenerate the dialog from substance, and if you think you deserve credit for being tolerant and mature, then I suggest you might resist the temptation to pander for it, by pointing out how the 'juvenile insults' you "don't particularly object to" were juvenile and insulting, thereby making it clear you DO object and returning a insult by way of name calling. By your own ironic measure, of boasting humbly about your own tolerance, I could just as easily proclaim my own virtues of restraint because 'I don't particularly object to compound hypocrisy'. But I wont do that.  Wink 

Quote
Saying I'm dumb/whorish/amoral etc. is not an argument.

See... Here's where direct quotes come in very handy for the sake of honesty and transparency. Those who wish to have a constructive dialog, often quote another persons text, in order to make reference to it, so it can be seen in the context of the present reply. I would love to know what you are on about. Other than for the sake of disingenuous innuendo, I cant see why anybody might consider this relevant. If you want to address an argument that I have attempted to make, then I would be glad if you would care to point out where I have said any of these things, and why you think I expected them to be taken as an argument? If somebody says something of this sort to you, I think it would be best to conclude that it's just a straight out remark. It's not necessary to construct a syllogism, in order to express an opinion. If you want recognize an ad-hominem fallacy, then don't forget, that a remark expressing discredit or disparagement, has to have been used as a premise. If I tried to establish your argument was false, because you were amoral, then I would be resorting to ad-hom.

Ad hominem or tu quot (to the man), is an attempt to employ emotive, value added judgments against a person (or persons), rather than address the soundness or validity of their arguments. such an ad hominem is exactly what you have employed with the politics forum, by saying:

A) Libertarianism is crazy hysterical vigilante zealotry, that embarrasses the forum.
B) My business friends, are turned off by the crazy hysterical vigilante zealotry, they see in the politics forum.
C) Therefore, bitcoin will suffer if the politics forum is not taken down.

Or perhaps:

A) The Politics forum is a turn off to business people.
B) Business people are needed for bitcoin to succeed.
C) Therefore, the politics forum should be taken down.

If you wouldn't mind, please desist from attempting any further efforts at provoking divisive rhetoric, in your blatant effort, to inflame emotionally loaded venting. I have provided plenty of substance for you to consider and respond to. I appreciate being quoted thanks and not having contentious insults shoved in my mouth.
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June 22, 2011, 03:34:45 AM
 #169



I know.  I am not criticizing you...


not you my precious goddess     ...I just don't think you should ever have to go for a pee, not while I can just as easily follow you around with a little bucket.


Grovel grovel pant slobber pant pant drool...



I'm just amused... 


...When I stand front of the mirror with my underpants on my head. I'm Soooooo sorry I stopped devoting every moment of thought in worship of you. I wont do it again... er... unless you say so of course. Embarrassed


Grovel grovel pant slobber pant pant drool...



I think you have been presenting your views very calmly, rationally and without malice...


Your spiked heal in my but cheek was a treet and I literally wet myself when you actually spoke my name.


[Wow...  Shocked I thought only dogs did that to peoples legs. K ]


Hump hump Lick kick pant grove pant pant slobber lick lick drool...


You've also handled the immature responses and jeering replies very well. 


If I'm a good boy I hope I might be allowed to lick 'ure feet.

slobber sloober pant drooool!



I apologize for the fact that so many members of this forum seem to be incapable of...


bowing in revert worship of your toenails.


accepting opinions different than theirs


is my life's dedication now you have blessed me with the bountiful joy of your opinion. That and letting me sniff your seat.


without resorting to ad hominems, name-calling and other school-yard behaviour...


I used to have nothing to fulfill me. Now you have let me sleep on your porch and drink out of your toilet... I.. Sniff Sniff...


Life will never be the same again.


Hump hump Lick kick pant grove pant pant slobber lick lick drool...


I'm not sure that I agree with you,


Unless you want me to... but I'll get back to you as soon as you tell me what I have to think


but I appreciate your civil, logical approach to the issue.


And bending over to make the sun shine sure was a great Idea, but I know I will also love it when you make it rain... or any thing else you say or do.

Paradise is just sitting here at your feet

TS  Kiss




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June 22, 2011, 04:01:13 AM
 #170

And, just to recap, the complaint was:

1) Atlas was mean to me.

2) As a purveyor of adult services I represent the opinions of average merchants.

3) My Wall Street clients would rather pay me in Federal Reserve Notes than in Bitcoins.

4) Huh

5) Shut down the Politics subforum.

Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics
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June 22, 2011, 04:37:25 AM
 #171

And, just to recap the current situation:

1) Jessy was right- stupid people really do run the world, and what they think DOES matter.

2) Bitcoin is dying in front of our eyes because of people naive enough to think reality trumps perception.

3) The papers and politicians ignore our charts, diagrams and white-papers.

4) Lets direct our sniveling, impotent "why don't they understand I'm RIGHT!!!" Asperger rage at Jessy  Grin
Anonymous
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June 22, 2011, 04:57:08 AM
 #172

Do we really have to powder our noses and put on our finest Sunday clothes for people to convince them to use Bitcoin? Aren't its benefits inherent?
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June 22, 2011, 05:20:28 AM
 #173

Do we really have to powder our noses and put on our finest Sunday clothes for people to convince them to use Bitcoin? Aren't its benefits inherent?

Same could be said of your political beliefs, but most people won't sit still long enough to find out. I can't think of any good examples of people choosing the better thing, over the more understandable and prettier thing. Look at the iPhone. Heck I live on a country where height has a huge statistical impact on who gets elected.

You would think geeks- more than anyone would get that people don't care much about what's on the inside. Never met a good looking asshole who was single- but decent hearted geeks who just happen to have poor social skills? Perception matters, it's not fair but it's how the world works.
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June 22, 2011, 05:25:29 AM
 #174

Atlas just doesn't own enough BTC to care.  Smiley

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Anonymous
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June 22, 2011, 05:27:39 AM
 #175

Hm, I understand, Jessy. I am going to ponder this for a bit.

Atlas just doesn't own enough BTC to care.  Smiley

Eh, I have over 105 BTC.
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June 22, 2011, 05:55:22 AM
 #176

I think the fact that the average person seems to have to worry about their bitcoins disappearing whether they store them in an exchange, an ewallet, or on their computer is hurting bitcoin's image a bit more than the forums.

The being said the forums do need to be cleaned up. If not for image, then just because the signal to noise ratio is totally out of whack.
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June 22, 2011, 07:26:13 AM
 #177

And, just to recap the current situation:

1) Jessy was right- stupid people really do run the world, and what they think DOES matter.

2) Bitcoin is dying in front of our eyes because of people naive enough to think reality trumps perception.

3) The papers and politicians ignore our charts, diagrams and white-papers.

4) Lets direct our sniveling, impotent "why don't they understand I'm RIGHT!!!" Asperger rage at Jessy  Grin

Seriously whats w/ all the aspy bashing?  You make some good points but the whole obsession w/ aspergers leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  It's about as destructive as the whole "the government are illegitimate violent thugs" model.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiqPCRtzOBw&feature=relmfu
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June 22, 2011, 07:53:58 AM
 #178

2) Bitcoin is dying in front of our eyes because of people naive enough to think reality trumps perception.

You are being just as lurid about the problems facing bitcoin right now as the media you are criticizing.

Step back a little.  Tabloid journalists are going to sling mud at bitcoin, no matter what. There is little we can do about that.   Technologies that challenge people's perception of the status quo always tend to provoke that kind of reaction, initially.  

Remember all the bad press and ridicule that Wikipedia faced just after it gained mainstream attention?  

What we can do is increase the amount of positive coverage in media consumed by the decision makers in our societies.  Luckily, coverage has been more positive in those media so far (specifically The Economist and Der Spiegel)

Bitcoin is facing challenges, but it won't die if we don't let it die. It grew a little bit too fast initially.  The bare bones infrastructure (the bitcoin protocol) seems to be solid now. The next step will be to build user-friendly tools (eg. wallet security software) that will unleash the power of that infrastructure. But that takes time.

GPG ID: FA868D77   bitcoin-otc:forever-d
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June 22, 2011, 09:42:56 AM
 #179

Seriously whats w/ all the aspy bashing?

Wait, after all of the other language used up until now- THIS is where you draw the line? You are going to White Knight- Aspies?

You make some good points but the whole obsession w/ aspergers leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Awwwwww. I take it that you aren't, and don't know any well? Because they joke about their approach to the world the way I joke about being a dumb blond. Treating them like they are handicapped and are off-limits for off-color jokes would NOT make you any friends. Here's a hint, anyone who knows the term "Aspie" is probably very close to one or more.

So either be one (for real- not a self diagnosed explanation for poor social skills) or love one before you break out the horse and lance in a forum full of far more colorful language.

Bitcoin is facing challenges, but it won't die if we don't let it die. It grew a little bit too fast initially.  The bare bones infrastructure (the bitcoin protocol) seems to be solid now. The next step will be to build user-friendly tools (eg. wallet security software) that unleash the power of that infrastructure. But that takes time.

I'm in full agreement. Politics is far from Bitcoins worst problem any more. I started this thread when businesses and the media were starting to look into it- when the tone of the Politics thread would have (IMHO) served as a deterrent to merchant adoption. Out of tens of thousands of new users not a single established merchants has joined since then- but correlation does not equal causation so silly to speculate. I don't think anyone in their right mind could claim that politics/legality was the primary concern of most potential users now.

Right now the primary problem is technical- a vulnerability was found and exploited. The fact that the average user does not understand anything about "hacking" or how this happened works to Bitcoins benefit. If you are a technical user I'm told the hacks look far worse than they do to a laypeople like me.

So I don't think most people think in terms of "Bitcoin is inherently insecure". Look how many people use retarded passwords and outdated browsers. Even the ones that know better- just slap a patch on and problem solved (in their minds).  Few stopped using MSIE even with weekly vulnerabilities alerts. Just patch it up. This is not the way it works in the real world- but in the average persons mind it does. If the Dev teams says "Oh we patched that bug" and jumps a client version to "Bitcoin 1.0" most people won't bat an eye- they are used to holes being found, then Microsoft/Apple/Google whatever fixes and then everything is ok. Clarke's 3rd law and all that.

Once again- we are talking about perception, not programing realities. There is an existing business model to follow in precisely these circumstances that people will accept, and do accept daily- that is a "patch" and "all better".

So if the current version of Bitcoin were to be saved, it is primarily a technical issue- something which is well within the Developers area of expertise. If a secure, encrypted Win/OSX/iOS/Web based wallet, with a UI designed by a designer and not a programmer, say- "Bitcoin 1.0" were released in the next few weeks- and the current issues dismissed as Beta version issues, most new adopters would not bat an eye (although the people who lost money are another thing).

The issue is; does the existing body of Bitcoin users have enough faith in Bitcoin to fund/make such a thing in the little time allotted. Because I don't think Bitcoin will see a lot of new users until a secure solution is released. It's not really "if you want to use Bitcoin then you code it" thing, it's more a "If you'd like to have Bitcoin around to use you probably need to get this designed and coded pretty quickly." It's unfair to look solely to the Dev team for this as they've busted their asses this whole time to get the project this far.

There are also some considerable PR issues, it is a skilled trade. It requires pretty much the opposite skill set from programmers, but the Development team has made it clear they would like to handle it themselves and in their own way so there's no point in taking pot shots at them. There are countless examples in the history of the Web of earnest programmers successfully promoting a purely technical project simply through describing it's functionality. The tricky bit is everyone seems to agree Bitcoin is not simply code. The Developers have been repeatedly called on to address it's implications in areas that are well outside their expertise- that's a tough position to be in.
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June 22, 2011, 09:52:15 AM
 #180

Right now the primary problem is technical- a vulnerability was found and exploited. The fact that the average user does not understand anything about "hacking" or how this happened works to Bitcoins benefit. If you are a technical user I'm told the hacks look far worse than they do to a laypeople like me.

Actually, it's not bitcoin that got pwnt, just a particular exchange service.

Exchange services will be pwnt from time to time, that's just the way things are (some of them will always be far softer set of targets than the bitcoin net itself). It's not that different from the CITI hack (nobody says "OMG dollar got hacked" because of that)

There are also some considerable PR issues, it is a skilled trade. It requires pretty much the opposite skill set from programmers, but the Development team has made it clear they would like to handle it themselves and in their own way so there's no point in taking pot shots at them. There are countless examples in the history of the Web of earnest programmers successfully promoting a purely technical project simply through describing it's functionality. The tricky bit is everyone seems to agree Bitcoin is not simply code. The Developers have been repeatedly called on to address it's implications in areas that are well outside their expertise- that's a tough position to be in.

Well, judging from Gavin's CIA presentation, the are doing a decent job so far
Do we really have to powder our noses and put on our finest Sunday clothes for people to convince them to use Bitcoin? Aren't its benefits inherent?

Sadly, humans aren't rational utility maximizing AI bots Sad

@Karmicads

As a corporate shill with government ties (it's good that our jurisdiction has recently amended its laws so that conflict of interest is now de facto defined as "A thing that never happens") I must point out that you have a weirdly narrow definition of brands.

Brands are best described as memes that deal with subjectively perceived value of a product, or a service, or a business.
As such, anything that can be called a product or a service (be it open source software or a type of belief  system with stable definite traits) can be, and usually is, a brand.
NONAME CHINA is a brand, too.
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