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Author Topic: Kill the Politics forum  (Read 18560 times)
benjamindees
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June 22, 2011, 12:54:03 PM
 #181

Jessy's politically-incorrect aspie bashing is probably preventing Bill Gates from converting his entire fortune into Bitcoins.  Thanks a lot.

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Karmicads
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June 22, 2011, 03:25:12 PM
 #182

Jessy's politically-incorrect aspie bashing is probably preventing Bill Gates from converting his entire fortune into Bitcoins.  Thanks a lot.

 +1  Grin

Not to mention this...

Quote
Right now the primary problem is technical- a vulnerability was found and exploited.

...sudden swing from Politics/PR rhetoric, to Inspiring Technical CritiqueTM may have a serious impact, on our chances of Obama announcing a MtGox bailout. Roll Eyes
epi 1:10,000
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June 22, 2011, 05:15:54 PM
 #183

Seriously whats w/ all the aspy bashing?

Wait, after all of the other language used up until now- THIS is where you draw the line? You are going to White Knight- Aspies?

You make some good points but the whole obsession w/ aspergers leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Awwwwww. I take it that you aren't, and don't know any well? Because they joke about their approach to the world the way I joke about being a dumb blond. Treating them like they are handicapped and are off-limits for off-color jokes would NOT make you any friends. Here's a hint, anyone who knows the term "Aspie" is probably very close to one or more.

So either be one (for real- not a self diagnosed explanation for poor social skills) or love one before you break out the horse and lance in a forum full of far more colorful language.


So how does this fit in terms of privilege and rights theory?  How is using asbergers as a pejorative consistent with your goal of removing speech that would scare away the average investor/merchant/customer?  I am not trying to attack you.. My intent was not to invalidate your contribution but to beg for further reflection. I am just trying to point out that rhetoric in these forums is not necessarily representative to the broader community as a whole.  In fact the ones who post the most in any political/religious forum are probably a standard deviation or two from the norm.  These outsiders have a role in our society too, and we are better off for having them, if for no other reason than providing an outside perspective to ponder.  I personal see anarchist and extreme libertarians as priest constantly pushing us to reevaluate the legitimacy of government policies and ethics of broader government actions and legal interpretations.  Unfortunately the volume of post by these vocal few tend to lead to the perception that they a much greater contingent of the community.  I am interested to see how this experiment progresses.
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June 22, 2011, 06:37:40 PM
 #184

So how does this fit in terms of privilege and rights theory?  

I don't know what that means.

How is using asbergers as a pejorative consistent with your goal of removing speech that would scare away the average investor/merchant/customer?  

My use of "impotent rage" also slurred individuals with Erectile Dysfunction (and possibly Intermittent Explosive Disorder- I cut a wide swath). But- as the self appointed Guardian Of Civility I think you chose the right time to step in, draw the line and stand up for all that is good and decent.

I take it with a smile and a wink, ignore the boring ones. I would comment on others who see that, and then cry foul for their own pet issues- but it would be terribly unfair to boys named Nancy and no doubt you would object again.

As for the effect it would have on potential merchants, what- you think they are coming? They heard about Bitcoin when prices were sky high a week ago, and got lost on their way from Google? They are rolling it out...very very slowly. But any day now, they are coming- really. Even the few established businesses that do accept Bitcoin- most are burying it. No one even wants to admit they accept the currency- but that's a total coincidence.

Yes yes I weigh the same as a duck because I'm not treating Bitcoin like the Second Coming. It's code. Code has alpha and beta versions.

Actually, it's not bitcoin that got pwnt, just a particular exchange service.

Yes, even I know it was just one exchange- but that's not how it was reported, or how the average person perceives it (speaking in my official role as "Idiot's Advocate" LOL).

Here:
Bitcoin Hack
Bitcoin Crash
Bitcoin Mess
End of Bitcoin
Bitcoin Struggles

As far as I can tell all total, and utter foolishness- but it does illustrate the problem. The elitist "it's all very complicated, it's not what you think it is" narrative, results in people inventing their own to describe it (incorrectly) in terms they already understand.

It's like when you call IT and the guy shows up, and *sighs* like you're a total idiot. It's not endearing in an individual- or an Open Source movement. If people "aren't getting it" then it's the job of the people who WANT them to "get it" to explain it in clearer terms- or present it in a clearer way. Because they are not going to suddenly get smarter or more technical.

In all of the above articles, Bitcoin is being referred to by the media in branding terms- they don't care if you think that's wrong. As it turns out, simply not understanding Bitcoin is not making them the least bit shy about making sweeping statements about it- and people listen and judge Bitcoin on that deeply flawed narrative.
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June 22, 2011, 07:10:29 PM
 #185


As for the effect it would have on potential merchants, what- you think they are coming? They heard about Bitcoin when prices were sky high a week ago, and got lost on their way from Google? They are rolling it out...very very slowly. But any day now, they are coming- really. Even the few established businesses that do accept Bitcoin- most are burying it. No one even wants to admit they accept the currency- but that's a total coincidence.

Yes yes I weigh the same as a duck because I'm not treating Bitcoin like the Second Coming. It's code. Code has alpha and beta versions.


As with all experiments taking a defeatist mentality is rather counter productive, but one can certainly share your frustrations and doubts.  Please don't let it consume you.  I do not think you weigh the same as a duck and I don't see bitcoin as the second coming but I do see it as a potential as a constructive (not destructive or disruptive) experiment.  Your concept of "Impotent Rage" may add depth to artistic expression but could easily be misconstrued in a broader argument without further explanation.

Blasphemy   STONE HER, STONE HER!!!!
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June 22, 2011, 09:45:47 PM
 #186

Blasphemy   STONE HER, STONE HER!!!!
Hehe, watch out with the stoning, now "they" will think we're Muslim fundamentalists. As if the image of bitcoin wasn't bad enough! No decent folks will want to be associated with us anymore.

So, let's go with age-old Catholic tradition and burn her instead! Tongue

Bitcoin Core developer [PGP] Warning: For most, coin loss is a larger risk than coin theft. A disk can die any time. Regularly back up your wallet through FileBackup Wallet to an external storage or the (encrypted!) cloud. Use a separate offline wallet for storing larger amounts.
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June 22, 2011, 10:30:58 PM
 #187

Wow, this discussion is now 10 pages long. Isn't this discussion about removing politics, politics in itself now ? Wink

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June 23, 2011, 02:04:17 PM
 #188

Right now the primary problem is technical- a vulnerability was found and exploited. The fact that the average user does not understand anything about "hacking" or how this happened works to Bitcoins benefit. If you are a technical user I'm told the hacks look far worse than they do to a laypeople like me.

Actually, it's not bitcoin that got pwnt, just a particular exchange service.

Precisely. Anything bad that happens anywhere, to anyone, or anything, even vaguely associated with bitcoin (even if it's only that they use it), must somehow be attributed to bitcoin itself. If bitcoin users cant draw a distinction between the security issues of a bitcoin exchange (hint Independent entity) and security issues of the bitcoin clients and network itself, how can we expect newcomers do so? 

Quote
It's not that different from the CITI hack (nobody says "OMG dollar got hacked" because of that)

!SNAP!

BTW theres a link for the MtGox 'security patch' in my signature.  Tongue

Quote
Sadly, humans aren't rational utility maximizing AI bots Sad

But now Jessy Kang has gone all tech savy, theres light at the end of the tunnel.  Wink It's true though. Nevertheless there a particular kind of intrinsic utility, built into the bitcoin software and network, that doesn't require anybody to understand it, in order for it to procure significant accumulating benefits. The inflation of bitcoin value itself, will accumulate as an ongoing attraction and that will continue with adoption even after the bitcoin production dwindles to nothing. It's very simple economics really, but even then, you don't have to understand it for it to happen.

The fixed to total sum of bitcoin likewise makes existing inflation currencies look like dinosaurs. You don't have to read the source code and understand it, to see that value of a bitcoin it steadily performing better. It just works. And finally, the P2P nature of the network, is also a technological innovation that you don't need to understand to see it's benefit. So it's technologically superior, for geeks and all users alike. It's economically superior for economics savvy people and all users alike. It's also subversive and politically potent for those who understand the importance of this, but, as Atlas pointed out, like the other benefits, it is all intrinsic to the nature of bitcoin, which doesn't expect users to know anything (other than face vale) to benifit.

When TV was an emerging technology, who would have said, 'It'll never work because nobody understands all them little components inside or how the radio waves are supposed to carry pictures through the air. Nobody will adopt it because it cause it doesn't have any intrinsic value." People see it working and how it benefits them directly. They will download and use bitcoin just for P2P transactions. That's a huge value proposition right there. The business community will see the same value and also the swelling numbers of people, who have desktop and phone applications that enable transactions to occur and so they will see lots of $$$.


@Karmicads

Quote
As a corporate shill with government ties (it's good that our jurisdiction has recently amended its laws so that conflict of interest is now de facto defined as "A thing that never happens") I must point out that you have a weirdly narrow definition of brands.

Well, yeah, I do realize is used in a broader context. The context of the OP and the more traditional concept of commercial branding, was the one I was addressing more specifically, with respect to business people coming here and expecting the bitcoin 'brand' to conform to their particular scope of 'top down', commercial marketing, image oriented hype. The issue is not really with the semantics of the word 'brand', so much as the opposite approach represented by grass roots, 'bottom up' consumer driven technology, that liberates us from being seduced, by an insidious onslaught of opportunist marketing magicians. Branding is an overt strategy in this sense, and as such, is oriented to the masses as a means to manipulate them for the ends, of the self-interested commercial player. Those players, must not be allowed to intervene and make bitcoin the strings to pull in their top down puppet show.

There are many business owners who will not play, if they cant have it all their own way. They will take bitcoin users for puppets. It's not that hard to see, who has the most to gain, from removing the politics forum, as a strategically subversive ploy, to silence the will of the individual, under the pretense of image sanitizing the 'bitcoin brand' and to prevent the newcomers from finding a valuable resource of education and  information that empowers them to know how to take this technology forward, as consumers, who are inverting the power base and taking back what government and industry have squandered.

Quote
Brands are best described as memes that deal with subjectively perceived value of a product, or a service, or a business.

That's an interesting description. Smiley Older folk will have learned the meaning of 'brand' before the mid 70's and before they'd ever have adopted the word 'meme' though, which was coined by Richard Dawkins, in The Selfish Gene. (and I just realized, meme still shows up underlined as a spelling error on my system). There's an even more compelling argument to reconsider my claim to 'value' being intrinsic to the properties of the bitcoin software and network. As you point out the value is subjective and it is must be perceived, in order to be valued. I have adopted more perfunctory short-hand in reference to value as being intrinsic to bitcoin. I am also aware that a much more pedantic assessment, would need to reconsider the designation of 'value' as a utility of the object. Utility, in economic terms is, "a measure of relative satisfaction". But here I refer to the word 'utility', in the colloquial context of 'usefulness', as a practical consequence of intrinsic properties, in contrast to the perceived value.

The utility of bitcoin itself, IS at least, partly intrinsic and objective (like gold), but it is also engineered to inevitably improve, in ways that are consistent with our subjective perception of value. The undeniable subjectivity of value issue is of prime importance. It's the only answer needed for those who have decried bitcoin as 'funny money', because, so they complain, "it isn't backed by anything like gold or government endorsement". We've all heard the ballyhoo denigrating bitcoin for having no 'intrinsic value'. But all the best POTENTIAL value arises from the intrinsic, objective properties and thats important.

All currencies are valued as a meme of collective endorsement. To say bitcoin is a 'brand' might apply (loosely) to the software, network and community as a whole. But to call the bitcoins themselves, both a brand and a currency is an unusual idea to ponder. I mean we don't call our existing money a brand AFAIK. Nevertheless, a brand must be subject to consumer approval and have subjectively perceived value in order to succeed. A currency it seems, is also subject to the arbitrary whims, of subjective consumer consensus. They both have the properties of their value being proportional to subjective consumer approval. My preferred implementation of a brand however, involves a very tangible value proposition, which expects the value be derived from utility and not from artificial inflation of superficial marketing hype and coercive manipulation to sell the perception of value, rather than the genuine utilitarian benefits, of its intrinsic properties. Trouble is I don't know if that would count as branding. Telling like it, isn't popular in some places. Perhaps we could have some kinda slogan like:

Caveat Venditor - Cos the boots on the other foot now biach!



Just a short point list of thoughts in closing:


  • We should try to keep a separate account when considering the value of bitcoin, that there is a difference between 'face' value of the bitcoin itself, and value of the bitcoin client software, the network and the community.
  • All value is subjectively perceived, but may be derived objectively from utility as emergent value.
  • Some value is derived from intrinsic objective properties and subjectively perceived as a result.
  • Some value is derived from subjective perception alone, (or perhaps more like subjective projection)
  • Tangible information derived from external objective source, must travel from outside to inside Ie: from source to mind
  • Value attributed to anything prior to direct experience perception is projected and travels outward from mind to source
  • Value worth paying for, is not derived from subjective perception alone.
  • The emergent value of bitcoin is independent of the marketing appeal factor, in that

    • small merchants will compete better then larger competitors will be compelled to adopt for same market,
    • it has universal appeal for free instant transactions with no controlling body
    • adoption will increase value leading to more adoption
    • community support & OSS FTW
    • inevitable inflation


Babylon
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June 24, 2011, 02:34:42 AM
 #189

And, just to recap the current situation:

1) Jessy was right- stupid people really do run the world, and what they think DOES matter.

2) Bitcoin is dying in front of our eyes because of people naive enough to think reality trumps perception.

3) The papers and politicians ignore our charts, diagrams and white-papers.

4) Lets direct our sniveling, impotent "why don't they understand I'm RIGHT!!!" Asperger rage at Jessy  Grin

well yeah, a cute whorish Oriental despot is way more fun to verbally abuse than the people who really don't get it.

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June 24, 2011, 09:37:23 PM
 #190

I'd be happy to see the politics forum go, if it would stay gone. I even have it ignored. But I suspect that such discussions would crop up again all over the place, which is why the forum got created in the first place. Perhaps instead it could be made completely inaccessible to newbies (and search engines).

I vote for this idea.  maybe in the profile you turn on access to "Other or Controversial forums" and you can't turn it on until your Jr. level or something like that.
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youtube.com/ericfontainejazz now accepts bitcoin


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June 25, 2011, 10:01:28 PM
 #191

Dear Jessy,

Bitcoin is open source.  FLOSS.  You can download the source code, retitle it as citizenCoin and modify you client to require the user's Legal Name, SSN, Birthdate, Physical Address, Telephone #, and then have your modified client automatically report all your users' transactions to the IRS and FBI.  I notice that the url citizencoin.org is available.  Please register it in your name, and then you can let people download your modified client, and they can post topics to your politically-monitored forum.

Saying that bitcoin has no political/economical view built-in at all is just wrong. It does.  Admittedly, part of the current market value of bitcoin comes from the fact that it is an unregulated alternative to state currency.  If it weren't for the FED, and most importantly the bailouts of 2008/9, then I doubt Satoshi wouldn't have been inspired to code bitcoin.  (in a way, society is better of for the fact that the bailouts happened and inspired Satoshi, since we may have instead had to be lugging around gold&silver if the RonPaul folks got their guy into office.)

Realize that us libertarians are have a great traditions and are partly responsible for many great advances in history.  Lao Zi's Taoism philosophy, The Enlightenment, The Magna Carta, Liberalism, The Colonization of The New World, The American Revolution, The Abolitionism Movement, Crytography, Servers, Gnu/Linux, Illegal filesharing, drug trade, etc.  PayPal, for instance, was started by an anarcho-capitalist lunatic Peter Theil who sought to create an unregulated international supercurrency.  He unfortunately failed since he used proprietary software and was bought up by the eBay corporation.  But now that The Great Satoshi has gifted humanity with bitcoin, we have another chance.  Please you may use paypal or USD if you wish.

Damn...I may have to make this Satoshi quote my new signature:

Quote from: Satoshi
Yes, [we will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography,] but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of
freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled
networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem to be
holding their own.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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June 26, 2011, 01:15:12 AM
 #192

Saying that bitcoin has no political/economical view built-in at all is just wrong. It does.

This is true, but irrelevant.

Do you want Bitcoin to be used by those who do not share your political beliefs?  If so, then don't present it as "the libertarian currency".  Present it as politically neutral, even if it's not.
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June 26, 2011, 02:51:23 AM
 #193

Saying that bitcoin has no political/economical view built-in at all is just wrong. It does.

This is true, but irrelevant.

Do you want Bitcoin to be used by those who do not share your political beliefs?  If so, then don't present it as "the libertarian currency".  Present it as politically neutral, even if it's not.

IF bitcoin cannot succeed because of its political baggage, than it is a poorly designed currency.

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June 26, 2011, 05:48:11 AM
 #194

IF bitcoin cannot succeed because of its political baggage, than it is a poorly designed currency.

I'm sure that it can succeed, but that doesn't mean that it will succeed.  I believe a Trojan Horse analogy is appropriate here.

Good marketing:

Quote
Hey, check out this awesome giant wooden horse that we made for you guys!  Please accept it as a token of our good will.

Bad marketing:

Quote
Hey, check out this awesome giant wooden horse that we made for you guys!  It's full of Roman soldiers!  They're going to help us conquer your city!
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June 26, 2011, 10:07:52 PM
 #195

I like the Trojan horse analogy.

Kiba and other fellow anarchists, why do you feel such an urge to talk about anarchist stuff in here? Are you not entirely sure of the awesome powers of anarchy and need self-assurance? There's plenty of other places where you can get that. Or is it that you just can't help yourselves trying to bring the poor unenlightened people into the fold? If that's the reason then you are missing one of the best parts of Bitcoin, which is that we can stop wasting our time trying to convince people that our way is better and instead force our way on them just by pushing this technology. If your wet dream is to have global anarchy then forcing it through technology is way more efficient than educating our way to it.

We are way stronger individually, but remember that we are way weaker in numbers. If we want to win this fight then we have to fight smart, and the first step is to make the dumb masses think that it is safe to bring our Trojan horse inside their city.
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June 26, 2011, 10:20:17 PM
 #196

I like the Trojan horse analogy.

Kiba and other fellow anarchists, why do you feel such an urge to talk about anarchist stuff in here? Are you not entirely sure of the awesome powers of anarchy and need self-assurance? There's plenty of other places where you can get that. Or is it that you just can't help yourselves trying to bring the poor unenlightened people into the fold? If that's the reason then you are missing one of the best parts of Bitcoin, which is that we can stop wasting our time trying to convince people that our way is better and instead force our way on them just by pushing this technology. If your wet dream is to have global anarchy then forcing it through technology is way more efficient than educating our way to it.

We are way stronger individually, but remember that we are way weaker in numbers. If we want to win this fight then we have to fight smart, and the first step is to make the dumb masses think that it is safe to bring our Trojan horse inside their city.

Excellent point.
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June 27, 2011, 11:22:37 AM
 #197

the first step is to make the dumb masses think that it is safe to bring our Trojan horse inside their city.

To put it more diplomatically, most people are operating from different premises than we are, and changing those premises is hard.  It's not likely to happen though arguing with them on the internet.  In fact, that's a great way to harden their current beliefs.

Our primary argument, when talking to non-libertarians, should be that Bitcoin is useful.  If it continues to exist and grow, that itself will eventually serve as a solid challenge to their worldviews.
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DO NOT ACCEPT PAYPAL FOR BTC YOU WILL GET BURNED


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June 28, 2011, 02:19:15 PM
 #198


Every attempt throughout history to artificially level the playing field has failed. I should know, I come from a country that tried, and learned better. There is no magic legislation, manifesto or computer code that will give you what you think you deserve. A lot of people have been sold on a Bitcoin fairy tale that is just not going to come true.


The sad thing is that I think you are already defeated. It looks like you quit. They enemy has already won, in your mind.

It isnt that you dont know of the issues that plague us ... I think you do ... its that you believe there is nothing we can do to stop them.

Maybe I am wrong, but that part of your post made me think that.

Not all playing-field-leveling attempts have failed. Just ask Andrew "Old Hichory" Jackson an quite a few others that made a difference in their time. Heroes like that need remembering and we should honor their memories with like-acts.

Sure, the pendulum swings wildly at times, especially when most are so apathetic and disinterested in their own government, admittedly, against our favor lately, but that doenst mean we should give in to them and quit! It's up to us to fight for our freedom and liberty. I think participation in Botcoin helps in that fight.

The BitCoin is about freedom and liberty.

That's worth much more than giving up/in or the faster money. Longterm, with the dedication of all involved, bitcoin can only become better and more widely used.

BitCoin is still in its intancy. It's a baby. In all, yes all open source projects, there is a development-phase meeting of minds. In there you have discussions of all kinds. BitCoin should eventually grow up and into a portal page for the Bitcoin. It's going to have to grow into that to ultimately be taken seriously, successful, and competative.

With any grassroots effort there are setbacks. The dedicated believers will not be swayed by these. They willl learn from them, adapt, then advance. Keep advancing and never give up.

For what BitCoin stands for in the grand scheme, plus to be fortunate enough to be on the ground floor of something with so much potential, not only for wealth, but the potential to do so much good in the world and affect it in a positive way, is what I am here.


"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


1Dr3ig3EoBnPWq8JZrRTi8Hfp53Kj
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June 28, 2011, 11:34:07 PM
 #199

The sad thing is that I think you are already defeated. It looks like you quit. They enemy has already won, in your mind.

Case in point.  Bind, I mean no offense by this, and I have no idea what you're like in person, but your posts make you sound somewhat unhinged.  Keep in mind that this observation is coming from someone who shares a lot of your political views.  To someone that doesn't share your views, you probably come off as downright crazy.

Talking about "believers" doesn't help.  That makes it sound like Bitcoin actually is a Ponzi scheme.  Hell, worse than that.  It makes us sound like a cult.
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Firstbits.com/1fg4i                :Ƀ


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June 29, 2011, 10:36:31 AM
 #200

I must admit i skipped large chunks of the discussion after a while scrolling down; but i think i got most of it.


Tell me if you, from both sides, think this would be an acceptable compromise:

The politics and other subforums dealing with more controversial topics not directly related to Bitcoin are kept as part of the forum, but mostly just serverside, when users try to access those sections they are directed to another domain, with a disclaimer stating somthing along the lines of "even though the moderators and participants might be the same these sections are not part of the official Bitcoin forum".


And of course, in both the original forum and in the non-official sections there would be some disclaimer like on chatrooms, games with user created content, chat etc and other things like that, somthing along the lines of "The ideas expressed by users in here does not necessarily reflect The Bitcoin Foundation's position - viewer discretion advised" (i can't remember the exact wording i was going got, but is somthing kinda like that)

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

Wanna gimme some BTC for any or no reason? 1FmvtS66LFh6ycrXDwKRQTexGJw4UWiqDX Smiley

The more you believe in Bitcoin, and the more you show you do to other people, the faster the real value will soar!

Do you like mmmBananas?!
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