I think BFL deserves a bit more benefit of the doubt

[jhansen858]

I have been dealing with them for about 3 months now. They have always returned every email I have sent them in a timely manner.  I was going to be in the area (this ended up not working out) and asked If I could tour the facility and see the build process.  They told me sure no problem but they expected to be extremely busy trying to get everything lined up so it might be better if I give them two weeks..  They also told me they want to be a long term mining partner and warned me not to buy a mining rig if I was hoping to just make fast profits.  They said realistically it would be about a year ROI to get the money back. 

So far, the company has been professional, honest, had a good attitude about it.

Now for the people who are going to jump in about how they have not delivered in 7 months, I have to say.

I have been doing some homework on what it takes to design an asic, get it produced, and turned into a finalized product.  Hint* not easy. 

Now I can believe that maybe these guys are kinda learning as they go.  And they are using everyone else money to do it.  I grant that.  But the same could be said for almost any new business.  I started a company 8 years ago out of my garage, just poof made it up one day.  And Yes I had the basics down in the beginning but honestly we were not that good at what we were doing for a few years. 

Also, Successful Business veterans quickly learn that its very easy mistake to make which is to not properly set a customers expectations.  I can see that BFL is obviously guilty of this.  It is clearly documented that they have said multiple times when something was going to happen and it didn't due to unforeseen complexities in the process. 

But lets be honest for a moment.  From what I can see, if they are a scammer company they are doing a very bad job about it. 

1) Have a public office where anyone can visit any time they want
2) This is their 2nd round of hardware (fpga's to asics?)
3) They are putting alot of money into R&D into software, and hardware design in support of the community with relatively low returns.  Probably working insane hours to do it. 
4) giving refunds to unhappy customers
5) offering lifetime warranty on all their products.

I say give them a break, If you don't believe in them, don't fucking buy anything from them.  But to openly accuse them of fraud, cheating, lying, and all the other shit I have been reading seems to be unwarranted to me.  I ordered a minirig from them and I want it to work correctly for at least a few years.  I want it to be well built and if that takes a little bit longer to make it awesome, then so be it.
I don't want some piece of shit they just slapped together so I can have the 2 week advantage over everyone else.  I would rather it take a few extra weeks if that means they are going to do it right. 

Another point is, we need companies like BFL who are willing to invest in the infrastructure if bitcoin is to survive long term.  Yea they have some faults, hopefully they will learn their lesson and start doing what every good business man does.  Under promise and over deliver.  Right now they have been over promising for a while and I think that is why so much negativity is going their way at the moment. 

I know I'm probably in the minority given the tone on these forums but I just wanted to throw out my two btc.

[1714303279]

1714303279

[1714303279]

1714303279

[1714303279]

1714303279

[Bitsaurus]

I have been dealing with them for about 3 months now. They have always returned every email I have sent them in a timely manner.  I was going to be in the area (this ended up not working out) and asked If I could tour the facility and see the build process.  They told me sure no problem but they expected to be extremely busy trying to get everything lined up so it might be better if I give them two weeks..  They also told me they want to be a long term mining partner and warned me not to buy a mining rig if I was hoping to just make fast profits.  They said realistically it would be about a year ROI to get the money back. 

So far, the company has been professional, honest, had a good attitude about it.

Now for the people who are going to jump in about how they have not delivered in 7 months, I have to say.

I have been doing some homework on what it takes to design an asic, get it produced, and turned into a finalized product.  Hint* not easy. 

Now I can believe that maybe these guys are kinda learning as they go.  And they are using everyone else money to do it.  I grant that.  But the same could be said for almost any new business.  I started a company 8 years ago out of my garage, just poof made it up one day.  And Yes I had the basics down in the beginning but honestly we were not that good at what we were doing for a few years. 

Also, Successful Business veterans quickly learn that its very easy mistake to make which is to not properly set a customers expectations.  I can see that BFL is obviously guilty of this.  It is clearly documented that they have said multiple times when something was going to happen and it didn't due to unforeseen complexities in the process. 

But lets be honest for a moment.  From what I can see, if they are a scammer company they are doing a very bad job about it. 

1) Have a public office where anyone can visit any time they want
2) This is their 2nd round of hardware (fpga's to asics?)
3) They are putting alot of money into R&D into software, and hardware design in support of the community with relatively low returns.  Probably working insane hours to do it. 
4) giving refunds to unhappy customers
5) offering lifetime warranty on all their products.

I say give them a break, If you don't believe in them, don't fucking buy anything from them.  But to openly accuse them of fraud, cheating, lying, and all the other shit I have been reading seems to be unwarranted to me.  I ordered a minirig from them and I want it to work correctly for at least a few years.  I want it to be well built and if that takes a little bit longer to make it awesome, then so be it.
I don't want some piece of shit they just slapped together so I can have the 2 week advantage over everyone else.  I would rather it take a few extra weeks if that means they are going to do it right. 

Another point is, we need companies like BFL who are willing to invest in the infrastructure if bitcoin is to survive long term.  Yea they have some faults, hopefully they will learn their lesson and start doing what every good business man does.  Under promise and over deliver.  Right now they have been over promising for a while and I think that is why so much negativity is going their way at the moment. 

I know I'm probably in the minority given the tone on these forums but I just wanted to throw out my two btc.

So much of what you said is very subjective and not using quantifiers.  I went and bolded some of that crap.

-Professional?  Is calling somebody a c*cksucker professional?  Maybe in the porno industry.  Is that the company you keep?
-If ASICs are not easy, then how were 2 competitors able to start after them and beat them to the punch? They may not have the lowest 65nm process, but what good is that when your customers lose money hand over fist?
-Honest? I don't see how this company can be called honest when the PR has one of the biggest conflicts of interest in all of bitcoinland.  Running a pool and selling mining contracts while at the same time being a PR guy for hardware vendor.  He made promises to 2 conflicting ends of a spectrum.
-
-fraud, cheating, lying?  Fraud - willful intent to deceive. I think taking orders for an item in June that is supposed to be delivered in October and then delivering it for over 3x the amount of time is blatant fraud.  They stifled competitors by giving false information (although this is seen in many other industries - still doesn't make it right).  Who the hell thinks they had a prototype sometime last year?  Anyone?  Every misstep with the bumping and packaging stage seems to indicate they hadn't done it before.  You're telling me they made the same royal screw ups twice?  Only Homer Simpson could do that.

The final point is your assessment.  A "bit longer"?  Understatement much?  End of June to end of October is 4 months.  A bit would be maybe 5, 10, 15%.  Maybe even 20% more.  If a car dealer quoted you a price and said please forgive me, the car is a bit more - 190% more.  Would you have that same reaction?  Unwarranted?  Are you kidding yourself?

They are not a scam (at least not until they run away with the money).  They are unprofessional, liars, fraudulent.

May I ask what kind of business you run that you see this as professional?  I don't see how anyone could attempt to call it ethical.  It's skirting illegal at the very least, but if you believe in Karma they'll burn in hell.

[meowmeowbrowncow]

This is what happens when ppl open their mouths in the conditions of:

1.  Low information
2.  Lack of critical thinking

The value of the phrase "keeping people honest" is lost in today's society.  Most people will believe anything and not make the effort to inform themselves.


Fin

[jhansen858]

So much of what you said is very subjective and not using quantifiers.  I went and bolded some of that crap.

1) Considering this was an opinion piece, is that surprising?

-Professional?  Is calling somebody a c*cksucker professional?  Maybe in the porno industry.  Is that the company you keep?

2) Yes, I have been treated in a professional manner thus far.  I really cant defend breaking that traditional customer service role for someone else but if i were on the receiving end of some of the crap that a lot of people are dishing out I'm sure it would be an easy mistake to make.  But they have not done it to me. 

-If ASICs are not easy, then how were 2 competitors able to start after them and beat them to the punch? They may not have the lowest 65nm process, but what good is that when your customers lose money hand over fist?

3) So building ASIC's are easy?  Could you qualify that statement?

4) How are people losing money hand over fist, because they should have bought the other ASICS out there that also don't exist?  Who is losing money hand over fist? 

5) Mining is a long term business.  Anyone who expects to make instant overnight returns is deluding them selves.  Sounds like you are mad because you didn't make those 3 billion percent overnight returns?

-Honest? I don't see how this company can be called honest when the PR has one of the biggest conflicts of interest in all of bitcoinland.  Running a pool and selling mining contracts while at the same time being a PR guy for hardware vendor.  He made promises to 2 conflicting ends of a spectrum.

6) So they are running a pool, but they don't actually have any hardware?  I'm confused.  Which one is it?

-fraud, cheating, lying?  Fraud - willful intent to deceive. I think taking orders for an item in June that is supposed to be delivered in October and then delivering it for over 3x the amount of time is blatant fraud.  They stifled competitors by giving false information (although this is seen in many other industries - still doesn't make it right).  Who the hell thinks they had a prototype sometime last year?  Anyone?  Every misstep with the bumping and packaging stage seems to indicate they hadn't done it before.  You're telling me they made the same royal screw ups twice?  Only Homer Simpson could do that.

7) So asking for pre-orders is now considered fraud?  Better let EA, Blizzard, and everyone on kickstarter know. 
I think people are bing a bit harsh for 2 reasons.  a) you are free to get a refund if you don't want to wait.  b) it was called a pre-order for a reason. 

-The final point is your assessment.  A "bit longer"?  Understatement much?  End of June to end of October is 4 months.  A bit would be maybe 5, 10, 15%.  Maybe even 20% more.  If a car dealer quoted you a price and said please forgive me, the car is a bit more - 190% more.  Would you have that same reaction?  Unwarranted?  Are you kidding yourself?

8)How does the unit taking longer translate into a higher price? Correct me if I'm wrong but Tesla has a waiting list to get their cars.  But I'm sure they are not changing the price?  I'm sure getting your actual car is subject to delays in production.  Are they scammers also?


They are not a scam (at least not until they run away with the money).  They are unprofessional, liars, fraudulent.

9) They are not a scam, just fraudulent? How does that even make sense?

May I ask what kind of business you run that you see this as professional?  I don't see how anyone could attempt to call it ethical.  It's skirting illegal at the very least, but if you believe in Karma they'll burn in hell.

10) They have wronged you (or society I'm still trying to figure out which)  to the point they will now "Burn in hell"  Interesting.

Bottom line is that your free to take a refund if your not happy to wait.  Therefore I just cant agree with anything you have said with the exception of the part I already outlined.  Which is that they are apparently guilty of over promising.  But anyone who was expecting instant overnight returns by being first to market, is deluding them selves.  If you seriously had that expectation, you probably shouldn't be spending money on something you apparently don't understand how it works. 

My only fear is that they will some how go out of business before I get what I paid for.  This is valid for any pre-order. 

[creativex]

Bottom line is that your free to take a refund if your not happy to wait.

Everyone should be requesting refunds, because the risk that BFL will go out of business or be shut down grows with each day they fail to ship products that were 100% paid for months ago.

But anyone who was expecting instant overnight returns by being first to market, is deluding them selves.  If you seriously had that expectation, you probably shouldn't be spending money on something you apparently don't understand how it works.

The promise of being first to market is PRECISELY what BFL sold...honest abe. The fact that they've failed so spectacularly while lying about nearly everything at every turn while Avalon and ASICMiner have succeeded in designing, building, and delivering ASIC mining hashes in less time should be a wake up call for BFL investors, but you need smelling salts to rouse many out of their slumber.

[jhansen858]

Bottom line is that your free to take a refund if your not happy to wait.

Everyone should be requesting refunds, because the risk that BFL will go out of business or be shut down grows with each day they fail to ship products that were 100% paid for months ago.

But anyone who was expecting instant overnight returns by being first to market, is deluding them selves.  If you seriously had that expectation, you probably shouldn't be spending money on something you apparently don't understand how it works.

The promise of being first to market is PRECISELY what BFL sold...honest abe. The fact that they've failed so spectacularly while lying about nearly everything at every turn while Avalon and ASICMiner have succeeded in designing, building, and delivering ASIC mining hashes in less time should be a wake up call for BFL investors, but you need smelling salts to rouse many out of their slumber.

Hrm interesting.  I had only just first heard about them about 4 or 5 months ago.   I lurked on the forums and what not for a few months and did my research.  Avalon's offer is way more expensive and seems to be less well designed.  ASICMiner, I really don't know much about them.  I know you can buy mining shares on their system, and I spend an hour or two trying to figure out how it works but I really couldn't.  The BFL solution looks the cleanest, and most high end.  If they were selling on being first to market thats news to me.  I had not seen anything that promised that anywhere.  Maybe I'm just late in the game.

[DrG]

Bottom line is that your free to take a refund if your not happy to wait.

Everyone should be requesting refunds, because the risk that BFL will go out of business or be shut down grows with each day they fail to ship products that were 100% paid for months ago.

But anyone who was expecting instant overnight returns by being first to market, is deluding them selves.  If you seriously had that expectation, you probably shouldn't be spending money on something you apparently don't understand how it works.

The promise of being first to market is PRECISELY what BFL sold...honest abe. The fact that they've failed so spectacularly while lying about nearly everything at every turn while Avalon and ASICMiner have succeeded in designing, building, and delivering ASIC mining hashes in less time should be a wake up call for BFL investors, but you need smelling salts to rouse many out of their slumber.

Hrm interesting.  I had only just first heard about them about 4 or 5 months ago.   I lurked on the forums and what not for a few months and did my research.  Avalon's offer is way more expensive and seems to be less well designed.  ASICMiner, I really don't know much about them.  I know you can buy mining shares on their system, and I spend an hour or two trying to figure out how it works but I really couldn't.  The BFL solution looks the cleanest, and most high end.  If they were selling on being first to market thats news to me.  I had not seen anything that promised that anywhere.  Maybe I'm just late in the game.

You joined in 2011.  I'm not sure how you could have missed their promises of being the first to deliver ASIC unless you took a long hiatus from BTC.  If they didn't make this promise I would have used fiat to pay for my Single.  Instead I tossed 208BTC into a dark hole.  What's the point of asking for a refund when I would get what, maybe 10 BTC back at the current rate (or 6 BTC at the time of your original posting).  I'm pretty sure my first day order will make 6BTC, but will never make 208BTC before melting.

[creativex]

Bottom line is that your free to take a refund if your not happy to wait.

Everyone should be requesting refunds, because the risk that BFL will go out of business or be shut down grows with each day they fail to ship products that were 100% paid for months ago.

But anyone who was expecting instant overnight returns by being first to market, is deluding them selves.  If you seriously had that expectation, you probably shouldn't be spending money on something you apparently don't understand how it works.

The promise of being first to market is PRECISELY what BFL sold...honest abe. The fact that they've failed so spectacularly while lying about nearly everything at every turn while Avalon and ASICMiner have succeeded in designing, building, and delivering ASIC mining hashes in less time should be a wake up call for BFL investors, but you need smelling salts to rouse many out of their slumber.

Hrm interesting.  I had only just first heard about them about 4 or 5 months ago.   I lurked on the forums and what not for a few months and did my research.  Avalon's offer is way more expensive and seems to be less well designed.  ASICMiner, I really don't know much about them.  I know you can buy mining shares on their system, and I spend an hour or two trying to figure out how it works but I really couldn't.  The BFL solution looks the cleanest, and most high end.  If they were selling on being first to market thats news to me.  I had not seen anything that promised that anywhere.  Maybe I'm just late in the game.

BFL ads and site design prey upon the uninformed. It's doing precisely what it's designed to do. While they(BFL) have spent the last year designing pretty boxes of fans for their non-existent products their competition has been designing, testing, and shipping working ASICs.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=171723.0

If you haven't ordered from BFL, DON'T. Instead do your own DD.

If you have ordered from BFL, request a refund. Whatever shipping date they've given you is a lie.

[Frizz23]

First you write:

Bottom line is that your free to take a refund if your not happy to wait.

... and then you write:

My only fear is that they will some how go out of business before I get what I paid for.

So ... why don't you just stop your whining and get a refund yourself? 

[Syke]

Hrm interesting.  I had only just first heard about them about 4 or 5 months ago.   I lurked on the forums and what not for a few months and did my research.  Avalon's offer is way more expensive and seems to be less well designed.  ASICMiner, I really don't know much about them.  I know you can buy mining shares on their system, and I spend an hour or two trying to figure out how it works but I really couldn't.  The BFL solution looks the cleanest, and most high end.  If they were selling on being first to market thats news to me.  I had not seen anything that promised that anywhere.  Maybe I'm just late in the game.

Then you don't understand the full scope of how deep their lies go. In mid Oct 2012, they were saying "Honest abe, we're shipping in October. We're world leaders in microprocessor design!" Now it's mid Apr 2013 and nothing has changed. Oct shipping was a lie. Nov shipping was a lie. Dec shipping was a lie. Jan shipping was a lie. Feb shipping was a lie. Mar shipping was a lie. Apr shipping is their latest lie.

[jhansen858]

Hrm interesting.  I had only just first heard about them about 4 or 5 months ago.   I lurked on the forums and what not for a few months and did my research.  Avalon's offer is way more expensive and seems to be less well designed.  ASICMiner, I really don't know much about them.  I know you can buy mining shares on their system, and I spend an hour or two trying to figure out how it works but I really couldn't.  The BFL solution looks the cleanest, and most high end.  If they were selling on being first to market thats news to me.  I had not seen anything that promised that anywhere.  Maybe I'm just late in the game.

Then you don't understand the full scope of how deep their lies go. In mid Oct 2012, they were saying "Honest abe, we're shipping in October. We're world leaders in microprocessor design!" Now it's mid Apr 2013 and nothing has changed. Oct shipping was a lie. Nov shipping was a lie. Dec shipping was a lie. Jan shipping was a lie. Feb shipping was a lie. Mar shipping was a lie. Apr shipping is their latest lie.

My options thus far are

1) get nothing and put my money on something else
2) wait this out and get what I paid for.  

So in one hand I have everyone who probably has pre-orders telling everyone else to cancel and the other hand I have what seems to be from all accounts a mostly finished product that is close to shipping.  

Yea, I believe that things have been over promised, However, I'm not sure if everyone is really this mad about it, or just trying to convince everyone else to cancel so they can get their rig first.  It honestly seems like everyone is over reacting a bit to me. 

[jhansen858]

You joined in 2011.  I'm not sure how you could have missed their promises of being the first to deliver ASIC unless you took a long hiatus from BTC.  If they didn't make this promise I would have used fiat to pay for my Single.  Instead I tossed 208BTC into a dark hole.  What's the point of asking for a refund when I would get what, maybe 10 BTC back at the current rate (or 6 BTC at the time of your original posting).  I'm pretty sure my first day order will make 6BTC, but will never make 208BTC before melting.

Yea, after the big crash I kinda took a break from btc.   I am still holding all the coins I mined back with my GPUs.  However, I run add blocking software, and honestly had never seen a BFL add and only found out about it after checking the mining rig hardware comparison chart to see what the new video cards would do . I was out before the fpga's were released so I missed that whole upgrade cycle.  Yea paying 208 btc for a single sucks balls.  I just paid cash for the rig.  I'm holding my coins long term as I don't need the money any time soon. 

[creativex]

Hrm interesting.  I had only just first heard about them about 4 or 5 months ago.   I lurked on the forums and what not for a few months and did my research.  Avalon's offer is way more expensive and seems to be less well designed.  ASICMiner, I really don't know much about them.  I know you can buy mining shares on their system, and I spend an hour or two trying to figure out how it works but I really couldn't.  The BFL solution looks the cleanest, and most high end.  If they were selling on being first to market thats news to me.  I had not seen anything that promised that anywhere.  Maybe I'm just late in the game.

Then you don't understand the full scope of how deep their lies go. In mid Oct 2012, they were saying "Honest abe, we're shipping in October. We're world leaders in microprocessor design!" Now it's mid Apr 2013 and nothing has changed. Oct shipping was a lie. Nov shipping was a lie. Dec shipping was a lie. Jan shipping was a lie. Feb shipping was a lie. Mar shipping was a lie. Apr shipping is their latest lie.

My options thus far are

1) get nothing and put my money on something else
2) wait this out and get what I paid for.

...or there's these options:

3) BF Labs goes bankrupt and you lose your investment.
4) BF Labs is shut down by the regime, as they're plainly in violation of FTC, SEC, & FCC regulations. Vleisides goes BACK to jail and you lose your investment.  

So in one hand I have everyone who probably has pre-orders telling everyone else to cancel and the other hand I have what seems to be from all accounts a mostly finished product that is close to shipping.

When you say "all" accounts you mean Josh's account? Please take a deep breath of your smelling salts. Nothing this man says turns out to be true, just search. 

Yea, I believe that things have been over promised, However, I'm not sure if everyone is really this mad about it, or just trying to convince everyone else to cancel so they can get their rig first.  It honestly seems like everyone is over reacting a bit to me.

You're probably right. After all difficulty has only gone up 250% while block rewards have only been cut by 50% since BFL's original "honest abe" shipping date. I'm sure profitability is RIGHT around the corner. Particularly as BFL has recently cut hashrates, increased power consumption, and doubled prices. That's good for mining profitability right?

[k9quaint]

Hrm interesting.  I had only just first heard about them about 4 or 5 months ago.   I lurked on the forums and what not for a few months and did my research.  Avalon's offer is way more expensive and seems to be less well designed.  ASICMiner, I really don't know much about them.  I know you can buy mining shares on their system, and I spend an hour or two trying to figure out how it works but I really couldn't.  The BFL solution looks the cleanest, and most high end.  If they were selling on being first to market thats news to me.  I had not seen anything that promised that anywhere.  Maybe I'm just late in the game.

So, observation A: the OP has little to no clue about engineering or electronics, yet is trying to make a decision based on his expertise in these areas. Doomed to fail. Avalon is the working version, so by definition it is better designed than BFL.

observation B: Avalon didn't spend any money marketing because their product sells itself. BFL has no product and they are selling investments in BFL, so their brochures have to be very shiny to pull in the dough. Pictures of products that do not exist, promises of riches, and sowing the fear that people will miss out if the don't invest now.

Looks like BFL snared another investor.

[philips]

BFL tour: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSu5Yyc1bEM

[jhansen858]

So, observation A: the OP has little to no clue about engineering or electronics, yet is trying to make a decision based on his expertise in these areas. Doomed to fail. Avalon is the working version, so by definition it is better designed than BFL.

observation B: Avalon didn't spend any money marketing because their product sells itself. BFL has no product and they are selling investments in BFL, so their brochures have to be very shiny to pull in the dough. Pictures of products that do not exist, promises of riches, and sowing the fear that people will miss out if the don't invest now.

Looks like BFL snared another investor.

a) If your saying I have no clue about engineering or electronics, that would be an incorrect assumption.  My earlier statement said that I had not heard of Butterflylabs, not that I had not heard of asics.  I'm not claiming to be an expert, however, I do understand the process generally speaking, have some general knowledge in logic circuits, and programming.  I also understand the process of designing and manufacturing circuit boards from a high level perspective.  I understand that asics are basically the end of the road when it comes to mining and that no better technology currently exists to preform the calculations in a better,faster,cheaper way then an asic. 

b) It is a fallacy to claim that just because someone put a bit of time on their marketing that their product doesn't exist.

So we are back to my original statement, was this over promised? Yes, it is clear that either by under-experienced mis-judgement, in the actual complexities and overall timeline, of producing and putting together such a complex product from the ground up (the more likely scenario in my mind) or by willful misinformation(hard to believe), this product was promised and not delivered according to the timeframe that was understood by all parties who were very early "investors" as you would like to call them.  Yes, I get it.  That will be enough to piss anyone off to the point of OP claiming they will "burn in hell" for the wrongs they have inflicted on society. 

And the point I have been trying to make is that, while yes, this is not good business practice to over promise, it doesn't merit the level of negativity that I'm reading a lot of the haters spewing out.  Thus far, no one has lost any actual money, other then forgone profits of being first to market.  However, I still maintain that if your buying a mining rig solely for the purpose of getting that one or two month advantage over everyone else, then you need to re-evaluate your strategy, as mining isn't a short term venture.  It is a long term game. 

I have done the math, and even if the difficulty goes up to over 300M which i think is unlikely, and the btc price crashes to under $50, you will still be able to make 100% money back in less then 12 months. 

So I say, being first to market really doesn't matter as much as most people think it does.  Yes, you will not make $5,000 / day, become the next bitcoin millionare and retire at 35 but that is honestly pure delusion that anyone would think that that kind of a return should be expected in the first place. 

[jhansen858]

BFL tour: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSu5Yyc1bEM

looks good. 

[DrG]

So, observation A: the OP has little to no clue about engineering or electronics, yet is trying to make a decision based on his expertise in these areas. Doomed to fail. Avalon is the working version, so by definition it is better designed than BFL.

observation B: Avalon didn't spend any money marketing because their product sells itself. BFL has no product and they are selling investments in BFL, so their brochures have to be very shiny to pull in the dough. Pictures of products that do not exist, promises of riches, and sowing the fear that people will miss out if the don't invest now.

Looks like BFL snared another investor.

a) If your saying I have no clue about engineering or electronics, that would be an incorrect assumption.  My earlier statement said that I had not heard of Butterflylabs, not that I had not heard of asics.  I'm not claiming to be an expert, however, I do understand the process generally speaking, have some general knowledge in logic circuits, and programming.  I also understand the process of designing and manufacturing circuit boards from a high level perspective.  I understand that asics are basically the end of the road when it comes to mining and that no better technology currently exists to preform the calculations in a better,faster,cheaper way then an asic. 

b) It is a fallacy to claim that just because someone put a bit of time on their marketing that their product doesn't exist.

So we are back to my original statement, was this over promised? Yes, it is clear that either by under-experienced mis-judgement, in the actual complexities and overall timeline, of producing and putting together such a complex product from the ground up (the more likely scenario in my mind) or by willful misinformation(hard to believe), this product was promised and not delivered according to the timeframe that was understood by all parties who were very early "investors" as you would like to call them.  Yes, I get it.  That will be enough to piss anyone off to the point of OP claiming they will "burn in hell" for the wrongs they have inflicted on society. 

And the point I have been trying to make is that, while yes, this is not good business practice to over promise, it doesn't merit the level of negativity that I'm reading a lot of the haters spewing out.  Thus far, no one has lost any actual money, other then forgone profits of being first to market.  However, I still maintain that if your buying a mining rig solely for the purpose of getting that one or two month advantage over everyone else, then you need to re-evaluate your strategy, as mining isn't a short term venture.  It is a long term game. 

I have done the math, and even if the difficulty goes up to over 300M which i think is unlikely, and the btc price crashes to under $50, you will still be able to make 100% money back in less then 12 months. 

So I say, being first to market really doesn't matter as much as most people think it does.  Yes, you will not make $5,000 / day, become the next bitcoin millionare and retire at 35 but that is honestly pure delusion that anyone would think that that kind of a return should be expected in the first place. 

It's clear from your rebuttal that no amount of proof will get you to change your opinion.  I might have agreed with you 4 months ago (look at my posts).  The stuff coming directly from them makes me think otherwise now.

I bolded the single point I thought was the most egregious, contentious part I found in your argument.  Over-promising is saying like UPS saying your package will get there Tuesday, but i gets there Wednesday in your case.  Willful deceit would be like UPS advertising 3 day service and delivering every single package 9 days laters for every single customer.

And if you think nobody lost money on this then there is no point for anybody else posting anything else here since you have your head.... in the sand.  The forums are full of stories of people who have changed their lifestyle and behavior to invest in what they think is the future.  Perhaps you should read more.

[jhansen858]

It's clear from your rebuttal that no amount of proof will get you to change your opinion.  I might have agreed with you 4 months ago (look at my posts).  The stuff coming directly from them makes me think otherwise now.

I bolded the single point I thought was the most egregious, contentious part I found in your argument.  Over-promising is saying like UPS saying your package will get there Tuesday, but i gets there Wednesday in your case.  Willful deceit would be like UPS advertising 3 day service and delivering every single package 9 days laters for every single customer.

And if you think nobody lost money on this then there is no point for anybody else posting anything else here since you have your head.... in the sand.  The forums are full of stories of people who have changed their lifestyle and behavior to invest in what they think is the future.  Perhaps you should read more.

I can appreciate what your saying. It would most certainly be possible to change my opinion and don't mean to be hard headed, but I feel like I have a valid point and am waiting for just 1 person to agree with me.  I guess I'm all alone.

In your analogy you give the UPS example of delivering your package a day later vs being triple the time frame due to false advertising.   However, if in that case, if UPS offered every customer a refund who was not happy with the service of having to wait so long to get the package in exchange for not delivering the package and returning it to its point of origin, would this still be considered willful deceit since they therefore didn't profit by the false advertising?

Also a few other things that come to mind regarding the lifestyle changers you mentioned,
 
1) Aren't those customers who don't ask for refunds validating that they believe BFL will deliver and actually choose to live with the delay?
2) Couldn't the case be made that its a risky proposition to make lifestyle changing decisions based on a get rich quick scheme that is marketed specifically as a pre-order? (my other point was that mining is a long term venture and that short term gains are not as important people think)

Now things that would change my mind would be something of the order of,

1) not having the option to get a refund if requested upon going over the stated time frame
2) not having an option to get a refund if the agreed to quality was not delivered
3) the company folding up shop and disappearing with the money before product was delivered.
4) not having the option to get a refund if they are not being responsive to customer inquires in a timely manner

Thats about all I can think of.  

So far, I cant honestly say that to my knowledge, any of those criteria have been met.  Therefore the worst I can say about them in good conscience is that they have over promised people in the past.  While I think this is not a good business practice, and is ultimately self defeating, I see no better option for fulfilling my desire to have a mining machine based on ASIC technology in the immediate future.  

Either one of two things will happen, because they cant honestly delay shipping those things much longer before having a mass exodus.  1) The will start shipping and I'll have been correct.  or 2) They will disappear with everyone's money and I'll have been 100% wrong.  

Considering this is their 2nd round of mining machines, i simply find it highly unlikely they would be scammers.  If so, this is the longest most elaborate scam since Enron.  

[DrG]

It's clear from your rebuttal that no amount of proof will get you to change your opinion.  I might have agreed with you 4 months ago (look at my posts).  The stuff coming directly from them makes me think otherwise now.

I bolded the single point I thought was the most egregious, contentious part I found in your argument.  Over-promising is saying like UPS saying your package will get there Tuesday, but i gets there Wednesday in your case.  Willful deceit would be like UPS advertising 3 day service and delivering every single package 9 days laters for every single customer.

And if you think nobody lost money on this then there is no point for anybody else posting anything else here since you have your head.... in the sand.  The forums are full of stories of people who have changed their lifestyle and behavior to invest in what they think is the future.  Perhaps you should read more.

I can appreciate what your saying. It would most certainly be possible to change my opinion and don't mean to be hard headed, but I feel like I have a valid point and am waiting for just 1 person to agree with me.  I guess I'm all alone.

In your analogy you give the UPS example of delivering your package a day later vs being triple the time frame due to false advertising.   However, if in that case, if UPS offered every customer a refund who was not happy with the service of having to wait so long to get the package in exchange for not delivering the package and returning it to its point of origin, would this still be considered willful deceit since they therefore didn't profit by the false advertising?

Also a few other things that come to mind regarding the lifestyle changers you mentioned,
 
1) Aren't those customers who don't ask for refunds validating that they believe BFL will deliver and actually choose to live with the delay?
2) Couldn't the case be made that its a risky proposition to make lifestyle changing decisions based on a get rich quick scheme that is marketed specifically as a pre-order?

Now things that would change my mind would be something of the order of,

1) not having the option to get a refund if requested upon going over the stated time frame
2) not having an option to get a refund if the agreed to quality was not delivered
3) the company folding up shop and disappearing with the money before product was delivered.
4) not having the option to get a refund if they are not being responsive to customer inquires in a timely manner

Thats about all I can think of.  

So far, I cant honestly say that any of those criteria have been met.  Therefore the worst I can say about them in good conscience is that they have over promised people in the past.  While I think this is not a good business practice, and is ultimately self defeating, I see no better option for fulfilling my desire to have a mining machine based on ASIC technology in the immediate future.  

Either one of two things will happen, because they cant honestly delay shipping those things much longer before having a mass exodus.  1) The will start shipping and I'll have been correct.  or 2) They will disappear with everyone's money and I'll have been 100% wrong.  

Considering this is their 2nd round of mining machines, i simply find it highly unlikely they would be scammers.  If so, this is the longest most elaborate scam since Enron.  

How can you own a business and not know the legalities of fraud?  I had to take a medical ethics course in med school so of course lawyers taught us all the legal mumbo jumbo like fiduciary trust.  Going back to the UPS example.  If a company willfully represents as shipping in 3 days and can be shown in court to ship consistently at 9 days (ie excluding acts of God) then that company will be charged with fraud irrespective of refunds.  If a gas station owner only gives you 9 gallons but you pay for 10, and he does this for everybody, he will be charged with fraud even if he offered a refund to anybody who complained.  Judges are reasonable and will not penalize businesses that have things happen out of their hands.  Numerically, how many times has the shipping estimated been pushed back?  Probably well over 25 times.  Come on even Diablo 3 wasn't like that.

I have a medical license and I worked 1/2 way through my realtor's license and CA is the toughest state to get any kind of license.  If BFL was based it CA it would have been shut down by now or at least be under investigation.

I honestly want the company to succeed.  I want their product (as much as other make fun and say it will burn down your house).  Even Yifu wants BFL to get their stuff out.  I don't like being lied to.  Had they been honest and not said shipping next week back last October I would have bought the BTC I spent to buy the Single at that time (even if it had gone up from $6 to $10 $800 is nothing for me).  I calculated I would get my BTC back into my wallet quickly.  6 months late and all I get is a voucher for stuff that got inflate in price?  Um, I want my lost coins.  I don't care if BTC is $2 or $200, I wanted more BTC in my wallet and I don't have it.