I think BFL deserves a bit more benefit of the doubt

[philips]

I can appreciate what your saying. It would most certainly be possible to change my opinion and don't mean to be hard headed, but I feel like I have a valid point and am waiting for just 1 person to agree with me.  I guess I'm all alone.

Well, not necessarily alone, but everybody (except trolls and newcomers) is tired of this subject. The time for cool headed discussions is long gone.
Now both parties are sitting in their trenches and occasionally throwing chunks of shit to the other side.

[John Self]

This is what happens when ppl open their mouths in the conditions of:

1.  Low information
2.  Lack of critical thinking

The value of the phrase "keeping people honest" is lost in today's society.  Most people will believe anything and not make the effort to inform themselves.


Fin

Exactly. All OP needed to do was read the full BFL history and look up 'fraud' on Wikipedia. Humanity is screwed.

[creativex]

This is what happens when ppl open their mouths in the conditions of:

1.  Low information
2.  Lack of critical thinking

The value of the phrase "keeping people honest" is lost in today's society.  Most people will believe anything and not make the effort to inform themselves.


Fin

Exactly. All OP needed to do was read the full BFL history and look up 'fraud' on Wikipedia. Humanity is screwed.

While the OP is failing to see the ongoing fraud that is BFL objectively, I'm not willing to write off humanity because of this. When I was choosing an ASIC mining hardware vaporware vendor last September/early October, I did significant research into BFL's history. What I found caused me to not only order from their competitor(BTCFPGA), but to actively campaign against BFL and their deceitful marketing practices. For the latter I was routinely labelled a troll, idiot, etc, but over time more and more have come to see BFL as they truly are.

Ordering from BTCFPGA/BitcoinASIC was only better than ordering from BFL in that the BS product delay announcements(lies) were less refined and marginally more truthful. Announcing a 3 month delay(BTCFPGA) rather than several 2 week delays(BFL) caused a tidal wave of refunds that bankrupted BTCFPGA. Management of BTCFPGA was simply less "slick" than BFL management, which allowed me to get out much sooner, which has allowed me to get on board with Avalon.

OP, please note that like BFL, BTCFPGA also sold FPGA mining hardware, yet their ASIC mining products never existed. Only team Avalon has thus far delivered both FPGA and ASIC mining products. 

[John Self]

This is what happens when ppl open their mouths in the conditions of:

1.  Low information
2.  Lack of critical thinking

The value of the phrase "keeping people honest" is lost in today's society.  Most people will believe anything and not make the effort to inform themselves.


Fin

Exactly. All OP needed to do was read the full BFL history and look up 'fraud' on Wikipedia. Humanity is screwed.

While the OP is failing to see the ongoing fraud that is BFL objectively, I'm not willing to write off humanity because of this. When I was choosing an ASIC mining hardware vaporware vendor last September/early October, I did significant research into BFL's history. What I found caused me to not only order from their competitor(BTCFPGA), but to actively campaign against BFL and their deceitful marketing practices. For the latter I was routinely labelled a troll, idiot, etc, but over time more and more have come to see BFL as they truly are.

Ordering from BTCFPGA/BitcoinASIC was only better than ordering from BFL in that the BS product delay announcements(lies) were less refined and marginally more truthful. Announcing a 3 month delay(BTCFPGA) rather than several 2 week delays(BFL) caused a tidal wave of refunds that bankrupted BTCFPGA. Management of BTCFPGA was simply less "slick" than BFL management, which allowed me to get out much sooner, which has allowed me to get on board with Avalon.

OP, please note that like BFL, BTCFPGA also sold FPGA mining hardware, yet their ASIC mining products never existed. Only team Avalon has thus far delivered both FPGA and ASIC mining products.  

Faith in humanity restored. I tip my hat to you, good sir.

[k9quaint]

So, observation A: the OP has little to no clue about engineering or electronics, yet is trying to make a decision based on his expertise in these areas. Doomed to fail. Avalon is the working version, so by definition it is better designed than BFL.

observation B: Avalon didn't spend any money marketing because their product sells itself. BFL has no product and they are selling investments in BFL, so their brochures have to be very shiny to pull in the dough. Pictures of products that do not exist, promises of riches, and sowing the fear that people will miss out if the don't invest now.

Looks like BFL snared another investor.

a) If your saying I have no clue about engineering or electronics, that would be an incorrect assumption.  My earlier statement said that I had not heard of Butterflylabs, not that I had not heard of asics.  I'm not claiming to be an expert, however, I do understand the process generally speaking, have some general knowledge in logic circuits, and programming.  I also understand the process of designing and manufacturing circuit boards from a high level perspective.  I understand that asics are basically the end of the road when it comes to mining and that no better technology currently exists to preform the calculations in a better,faster,cheaper way then an asic. 

Awesome, you read the Wikipedia entry for ASIC and can probably make an AND gate. You are disqualified from judging BFL on it's engineering merits. Experts can judge them, maybe amateurs with lots of experience can judge them, people with a bit of general knowledge cannot. So.

b) It is a fallacy to claim that just because someone put a bit of time on their marketing that their product doesn't exist.

True, but I made no such claim so why are you making this point? I said that BFL is the best marketed ASIC and Avalon has almost no marketing. I presented the reasons why this is so, which you did not refute.

So we are back to my original statement

No, you are back there. We are well past it.

Was this over promised? Yes, it is clear that either by under-experienced mis-judgement, in the actual complexities and overall timeline, of producing and putting together such a complex product from the ground up (the more likely scenario in my mind) or by willful misinformation(hard to believe), this product was promised and not delivered according to the timeframe that was understood by all parties who were very early "investors" as you would like to call them.  Yes, I get it.  That will be enough to piss anyone off to the point of OP claiming they will "burn in hell" for the wrongs they have inflicted on society. 

Lying to investors is the unforgivable sin. If they had a product but could not fulfill demand, that would be more understandable.

And the point I have been trying to make is that, while yes, this is not good business practice to over promise, it doesn't merit the level of negativity that I'm reading a lot of the haters spewing out.  Thus far, no one has lost any actual money, other then forgone profits of being first to market. 

BFL is still holding investors money. They lied to investors about their prospects (which is illegal and should land them in jail). If they go bankrupt, a lot of people will lose all of their money. BFL presented an investment with low risk and high reward which is exactly the opposite of the truth. It has turned out to be high risk no reward (up to this point).

However, I still maintain that if your buying a mining rig solely for the purpose of getting that one or two month advantage over everyone else, then you need to re-evaluate your strategy, as mining isn't a short term venture.  It is a long term game. 

Unless, you are first to market (high risk) then you can make a killing (high reward). Mining can absolutely be a short term venture, but that would classify it more as speculation than true investment in Bitcoin. You could buy hardware, mine with it, then sell it before it becomes obsolete and reinvest your proceeds into the next generation. "ASICs" are not the end of the line as you claim, any more than CPUs were the end in 1980. The efficiency and scalability of mining ASICs will continue to evolve as long as Bitcoin continues to grow.

I have done the math, and even if the difficulty goes up to over 300M which i think is unlikely, and the btc price crashes to under $50, you will still be able to make 100% money back in less then 12 months. 

You are presuming an ASIC and PCB designed and assembled by amateurs can run 24/7 at 100% output for 12 months. Another assumption made by someone with little to no experience in the relevant engineering disciplines. Also, Bitcoin might not be around in 12 months.

So I say, being first to market really doesn't matter as much as most people think it does.  Yes, you will not make $5,000 / day, become the next bitcoin millionare and retire at 35 but that is honestly pure delusion that anyone would think that that kind of a return should be expected in the first place. 

Tell that to the people who were deciding between ordering from Avalon and BFL, read a post like your original, and decided on BFL. They had the right idea (invest in ASICs) but were fooled by charlatans and lost out on a tremendous opportunity. Of course they are angry.

[ebildude123]

Meh, delays though, too long.
They better ship soon 

[meowmeowbrowncow]

... BFL ... charlatans ...

Done. 

[Operatr]

So sick of this

[firefop]

Hrm interesting.  I had only just first heard about them about 4 or 5 months ago.   I lurked on the forums and what not for a few months and did my research.  Avalon's offer is way more expensive and seems to be less well designed.  ASICMiner, I really don't know much about them.  I know you can buy mining shares on their system, and I spend an hour or two trying to figure out how it works but I really couldn't.  The BFL solution looks the cleanest, and most high end.  If they were selling on being first to market thats news to me.  I had not seen anything that promised that anywhere.  Maybe I'm just late in the game.

Then you don't understand the full scope of how deep their lies go. In mid Oct 2012, they were saying "Honest abe, we're shipping in October. We're world leaders in microprocessor design!" Now it's mid Apr 2013 and nothing has changed. Oct shipping was a lie. Nov shipping was a lie. Dec shipping was a lie. Jan shipping was a lie. Feb shipping was a lie. Mar shipping was a lie. Apr shipping is their latest lie.

OP, I think you've got it pretty much right on... the company is legit, but completely inexperienced in actually delivering this type of product.

When I ordered my fpgas from BFL I was told it would be 2 months to have them delivered... they arrived 3 weeks early. When I placed my pre-orders for upgrades... I was told "expect a shipping date before march 2013"

From my perspective, I can call them anytime I want and have someone speak to me. I could if I wanted to request and get a refund... and from my perspective they're 14 days behind on shipping. Sure I was excited when they mentioned a ship day in october... but my plans were all done based on what the sales rep told me at the time of the order. So yes, I'm slightly annoyed that avalon shipped first, but I'm honestly expecting BFL to start delivering product any day now.

Even if the company is struggling on the tech side of things, the fact that they've adjusted numbers on hash rate, price and power consumption indicates to me that they're in the process of solving these issues. Expect a product soon. Anyone who says that "BFL Lied" is basing that off a misguided sense of entitlement rather than facts. Things happen when bringing a product to market, I sure some things could have been explained in a more timely manner... but so far they've had good enough reasons for the delays. Switching the packaging for example is a multi month delay at least, usually around 6 months in my experience.

I believe they'll get it sorted and a product shipped soon.

[creativex]

OP, I think you've got it pretty much right on... the company is legit, but completely inexperienced in actually delivering this type of product.

Anyone who says that "BFL Lied" is basing that off a misguided sense of entitlement rather than facts.

You do realize that they(BFL) claimed to be experts in exactly this field correct? Further that their COO has on occasions too numerous to count attempted to portray BFL's competitors as amateurs and themeselves(BFL) as the real pros in this field. This is fact, and can be easily verified by anybody by simply searching BFL's faq and/or Inaba/BFL_Josh's posts. Given this fact how do you reconcile your two above quoted statements?

When I ordered my fpgas from BFL I was told it would be 2 months to have them delivered... they arrived 3 weeks early. When I placed my pre-orders for upgrades... I was told "expect a shipping date before march 2013"

From my perspective, I can call them anytime I want and have someone speak to me. I could if I wanted to request and get a refund... and from my perspective they're 14 days behind on shipping. Sure I was excited when they mentioned a ship day in october... but my plans were all done based on what the sales rep told me at the time of the order. So yes, I'm slightly annoyed that avalon shipped first, but I'm honestly expecting BFL to start delivering product any day now.

If BFL does begin shipping a product any day now, it will not be the product ordered, or the product people ordered going all the way back to June of 2012, it will be a vastly inferior product, with many times the power consumption footprint.

Even if the company is struggling on the tech side of things, the fact that they've adjusted numbers on hash rate, price and power consumption indicates to me that they're in the process of solving these issues. Expect a product soon. Anyone who says that "BFL Lied" is basing that off a misguided sense of entitlement rather than facts. Things happen when bringing a product to market, I sure some things could have been explained in a more timely manner... but so far they've had good enough reasons for the delays. Switching the packaging for example is a multi month delay at least, usually around 6 months in my experience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

[fnordfnordfnord]

So far, the company has been professional, honest, had a good attitude about it.

0/10 Either the troll force is strong with you, or you've got some sort of cognitive impairment. BFL Josh has been a shit-talking fool since day one. Even, no, especially before Avalon shipped, he was consistently trolling these forums and elsewhere. Professional, no. Not in the least. Not even back when there was a chance they could succeed.

BFL got in over their head, which might have been forgivable except for the following:

• they doubled-down and used their pre-order money to buy ads to get more pre-order money with which they hoped to try and dig themselves out.
• They allowed their troll to roam these parts and... troll, to no useful end.

[desired_username]

I'm with the OP.

I've been waiting since 09/12... I could have asked my money back, but decided to wait this out.

I cannot understand people who are angry with BFL without even having an order with them.

Is your life so dull that you get upset about things like this? ;-)

The choice is easy:

If you ordered but uncomfortable with the long wait - then ask for a refund.

[creativex]

I'm with the OP.

I've been waiting since 09/12... I could have asked my money back, but decided to wait this out.

Can you not at the very least see a conspicuous absence of bias from those that do have an order(s) with BFL? If you placed an order with BFL in June of 2012 and were assured of 1Gh/1watt and an October 2012 shipping date then you should be angry with BFL. You may or may not have chosen to place an order with Avalon Q4 2012 based on BFL's bogus projections. Those that placed orders with BFL in June of 2012 may have had their resources tied up on products that were consistently just around the corner...according to BFL. Because of this deceitful tactic some of those investors would have been much further ahead by cancelling their BFL orders long ago, but this is hindsight and wasn't clear then, precisely because of BFL's tactic of constantly portraying their SC product line as being "in the final stages of development".

The argument that requesting a refund solves everything is a non-starter. Orders placed and paid in BTC were converted to fiat at that time. Some of these orders were placed when the exchange rate was $6. An order placed in June of 2012 for a single sc would have been 216ish BTC, while a refund of that same order processed this very second would return 13.4BTC. That's a pretty unappealing proposition, and when you add to that the total lack of competition in the marketplace and BFL's vaporware price increase, most will simply choose to keep their place in line for it's perceived "value".

[John Self]

I cannot understand people who are angry with BFL without even having an order with them.

Because it damages the bitcoin community, leads to less orders for the legitimate mining companies and less miners online, more bad press and more people turned off making a contribution to bitcoin. Even if they deliver eventually, people like you have suffered a tremendous opportunity cost- you could have bought a mining rig or real ASIC and made a contribution to the community and filled your wallets, if you aren't angry you either have a Buddhist temperament- which is admirable- or you aren't thinking clearly about the cost to you- which is probable.

Difficult as it may be for you to understand, some such people do things outside their immediate self interest for moral reasons. I am immensely grateful to these "angry" people with "dull" lives, because if it wasn't for their extensive forum posts I would have ordered some of this vapourware when I first got interested in bitcoin a month ago- I had even begun the order process. Now, thanks to them- I have shares in an avalon with a fellow forum member new to bitcoin, it is shipping out soon and I am proud to have invested in a fantastic monetary concept.

[jhansen858]

The argument that requesting a refund solves everything is a non-starter. Orders placed and paid in BTC were converted to fiat at that time. Some of these orders were placed when the exchange rate was $6. An order placed in June of 2012 for a single sc would have been 216ish BTC, while a refund of that same order processed this very second would return 13.4BTC. That's a pretty unappealing proposition, and when you add to that the total lack of competition in the marketplace and BFL's vaporware price increase, most will simply choose to keep their place in line for it's perceived "value".

BFL could have just as easily said "Sorry we only accept cash"  Then you would have had to cash it out in order to send it to them.  It is doubtful that their suppliers or employees are willing to accept 100% bitcoin, so they were basically doing you a favor and saving a small amount of hassle from having to cash the btc out your self, then wire them the money at the bank.  I know that process took me several days.  So, I believe that actually, you really cant make the case the you should receive the same about of BTC back that you sent.  Currently it is the convention of everyone to price things in Dollars/EURO etc and then do the conversion to BTC for the purpose of the sale.  Undoubtedly they cashed the BTC out at the time it was sent and converted it to dollars.  Logically, they really can only be expected to give dollars or the then current BTC in refunds. 

Who knows, maybe you will get lucky and the price will crash back to $3 each.  Then you can get your coins back at a more favorable rate. 

[jhansen858]

OP, I think you've got it pretty much right on... the company is legit, but completely inexperienced in actually delivering this type of product.

When I ordered my fpgas from BFL I was told it would be 2 months to have them delivered... they arrived 3 weeks early. When I placed my pre-orders for upgrades... I was told "expect a shipping date before march 2013"

From my perspective, I can call them anytime I want and have someone speak to me. I could if I wanted to request and get a refund... and from my perspective they're 14 days behind on shipping. Sure I was excited when they mentioned a ship day in october... but my plans were all done based on what the sales rep told me at the time of the order. So yes, I'm slightly annoyed that avalon shipped first, but I'm honestly expecting BFL to start delivering product any day now.

Even if the company is struggling on the tech side of things, the fact that they've adjusted numbers on hash rate, price and power consumption indicates to me that they're in the process of solving these issues. Expect a product soon. Anyone who says that "BFL Lied" is basing that off a misguided sense of entitlement rather than facts. Things happen when bringing a product to market, I sure some things could have been explained in a more timely manner... but so far they've had good enough reasons for the delays. Switching the packaging for example is a multi month delay at least, usually around 6 months in my experience.

I believe they'll get it sorted and a product shipped soon.

Thank you!  I was starting to feel like Liam Neeson in The Grey. 

[repentance]

So in one hand I have everyone who probably has pre-orders telling everyone else to cancel and the other hand I have what seems to be from all accounts a mostly finished product that is close to shipping.  

Yea, I believe that things have been over promised, However, I'm not sure if everyone is really this mad about it, or just trying to convince everyone else to cancel so they can get their rig first.  It honestly seems like everyone is over reacting a bit to me.  

If you've only been dealing with them for three months then you ordered in January.  At this point, no-one has any idea when people who ordered BFL ASICs this year might receive them.  The chips they have in stock right now won't fill very many orders at all and there's been no mention of what is happening with the bulk order of 63,000 chips (from which the majority of existing pre-orders would have been filled).

So yes, they might be able to deliver some sub-spec units to June/July orders soon but there's no indication at this time when the revised design will be completed and when those who ordered after July can expect to receive their units.  It's not even clear whether the second 6 wafers have been completed or whether BFL is just going to use the wafers they have on hand to fill whatever they can with lower specs and everyone else will have to wait for the redesign.

[jhansen858]

If you've only been dealing with them for three months then you ordered in January.  At this point, no-one has any idea when people who ordered BFL ASICs this year might receive them.  The chips they have in stock right now won't fill very many orders at all and there's been no mention of what is happening with the bulk order of 63,000 chips (from which the majority of existing pre-orders would have been filled).

So yes, they might be able to deliver some sub-spec units to June/July orders soon but there's no indication at this time when the revised design will be completed and when those who ordered after July can expect to receive their units.  It's not even clear whether the second 6 wafers have been completed or whether BFL is just going to use the wafers they have on hand to fill whatever they can with lower specs and everyone else will have to wait for the redesign.

I guess i'm just not that worried about the actual timeline as long as the product preforms as advertised.  

1) I originally put $1500 in to two 5970's back when the difficulty was under 500k.
2) I managed to mine enough coins back then to basically pay for my new rig.

From my perspective, the risk is about $1500 - $3000 range. I would be stupid not to take it. Even if they don't deliver, I'm only out $3000 of actual money at this point.  Painful, but not life ending.

[repentance]

I guess i'm just not that worried about the actual timeline as long as the product preforms as advertised. 

1) I originally put $1500 in to two 5970's back when the difficulty was under 500k.
2) I managed to mine enough coins back then to basically pay for my new rig.

From my perspective, the risk is about $1500 - $3000 range. I would be stupid not to take it. Even if they don't deliver, I'm only out $3000 of actual money at this point.  Painful, but not life ending.

We already know that the product isn't going to perform as advertised, but lack of competition means that people will forgive that.  Nobody else is mass producing ASICs at this point.  BFL may have to lift their game when other players enter the ASIC market but until that happens they have a virtual monopoly on ASIC sales.

As with everything else Bitcoin, it's not a great idea to spend more on ASICs than you're willing to lose. 

[shivansps]

Lets be a little fair here, Avalon shipped 300 units in 3 months, second batch starting shipping today (im correct?), lets say, if the total numbers of Avalons is 900 by end of May and we consider 1/4 of what BFL claims on production rate, BFL will mach the number of Avalon units in a week and half if they start shipping in June....


Avalon shipped 300 units in 3 months, you cant order because they are always sold out, they are expensive, what are you guys expecting the people to do? Even if you order a 4th batch Avalon, you probably dont going to get it in a long time too.


Thats why people order BFL units and pray.

As for who win and who losse, like in any bussiness, there are winners and lossers, who preorder a Avalon 1st batch won, who preordered BFL lose, thats the end of story, you just cant start complaining because you taked your chances with BFL and lose, its getting tiredsome of hearing people compaining of BFL, nobody forced you to preorder BFL, ask a refund and do something else, if not its because you know you dont have other choice.

And there is not always refund choices when a bussiness goes wrong people.