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Question: Will a tool for analyzing modlog help headhunters?
Yes, it will help greatly both mods and headhunters - 5 (100%)
No, it will only make these activists and mods lazy - 0 (0%)
Access to modlog should be denied to everyone - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 5

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Author Topic: [Interest Check] - Analyzing modlog for permabans  (Read 1833 times)
deisik
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December 31, 2016, 02:49:43 PM
Last edit: December 31, 2016, 03:24:56 PM by deisik
 #1

Well, it kinda seems that the idea of introducing the Banned rank didn't catch on (and personally, I'm quite happy and satisfied with this outcome). But there are still people who are busy with finding copy-pasters as well as other violators, and they claim that such a rank could help them greatly in their butcher job (which may well be the case) since they don't know if the offending user has already been banned. The modlog could help them in their toil, though in its raw form it may not be quite handy and usable overall...

So, is there a need for developing a tool for analyzing this log and representing its data in a more readable format for these activists (and mods alike)?

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December 31, 2016, 03:03:45 PM
 #2

It kinda seems that the idea of introducing the Banned rank didn't catch on (and personally, I'm quite happy and satisfied with this outcome).
That is a lie and you know it. The majority of the people that have responded were in favor of it. Theymos is also okay with it as long as it causes no other issues.

This thread shouldn't be in Meta as this tool can be developed without theymos having to change anything. The third poll option is suited for Meta though.

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December 31, 2016, 03:10:34 PM
Last edit: December 31, 2016, 03:27:23 PM by deisik
 #3

It kinda seems that the idea of introducing the Banned rank didn't catch on (and personally, I'm quite happy and satisfied with this outcome).
That is an outright lie and you know it. The majority of the people that have responded were in favor of it. Theymos is also okay with it as long as it causes no other issues

What is an outright lie here?

I didn't claim that this idea had been rejected, all I said is that it looks like this idea didn't catch on, i.e. it seemingly didn't gain enough popularity up to a point of being actually implemented. All I know is that I don't see the Banned rank on the forum two months after it had been discussed. What other conclusion should I have come to in your opinion? Also, which majority of people do you refer to exactly? Did you set a poll to see what people really think about it? In any any case, this is not the point of this thread

This thread shouldn't be in Meta as this tool can be developed without theymos having to change anything.

Are you afraid that theymos will see the thread, find this suggestion a better alternative to the Banned rank (your idea if I'm not mistaken), and likely endorse this endeavor?

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December 31, 2016, 03:37:19 PM
 #4

The information is already publicly available, so I don't see why the information should not be presented in a more user friendly format.

The modlog however does not include everyone that is banned, and not even everyone that is permmabanned

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December 31, 2016, 03:39:43 PM
 #5

In any any case, this is not the point of this thread
Yet it is mentioned in a misleading way.

The poll should have been a simple: Yes, No, Other. If I don't agree with the stuff after the comma(s), then I can not vote.

Are you afraid that theymos will see the thread, find this suggestion a better alternative to the Banned rank (your idea if I'm not mistaken), and likely endorse this endeavor?
This claim doesn't even make sense. As you've mentioned it yourself elsewhere:

If it is not very handy for this aim, a utility can be designed for analyzing it specifically for this purpose. People have been writing all kinds of scripts for obtaining various statistics about the forum, so there shouldn't be any difficulty in developing a specialized tool for these headhunters, right?
All you need to do is hire someone to do it, and host it in a user accessible way (e.g. on a website). Theymos does not need to do anything for your suggestion to 'happen'. Either suggestion would have at least some benefit.

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December 31, 2016, 03:50:50 PM
 #6

The information is already publicly available, so I don't see why the information should not be presented in a more user friendly format.

The modlog however does not include everyone that is banned, and not even everyone that is permmabanned

So this is exactly where theymos could help us. I mean by adding more info to the log, so it could be used more efficiently and effectively for the purposes discussed here

In any any case, this is not the point of this thread
Yet it is mentioned in a misleading way

How's that? What specifically makes you think so?

If your refer to theymos allegedly giving you consent to your idea (and which you think I intentionally ignored in the OP), I'm in fact strongly inclined to think that it was rather a polite refusal than actual consent (as I already told you before). You said that he wouldn't refuse in this way, but this is exactly how I would myself give my disapproval in a polite way if I didn't want to refuse directly. Anyway, two months are more than enough to draw at least some conclusions

Are you afraid that theymos will see the thread, find this suggestion a better alternative to the Banned rank (your idea if I'm not mistaken), and likely endorse this endeavor?
This reasoning is absurd. As you've mentioned it yourself elsewhere:

If it is not very handy for this aim, a utility can be designed for analyzing it specifically for this purpose. People have been writing all kinds of scripts for obtaining various statistics about the forum, so there shouldn't be any difficulty in developing a specialized tool for these headhunters, right?
All you need to do is hire someone to do it, and host it in a user accessible way (e.g. on a website). Theymos does not need to do anything for your suggestion to 'happen'.

Let's not be hypocrites here. If theymos endorsed this idea himself, it would be done much faster and in a more competitive manner, producing a better tool in the end

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December 31, 2016, 03:57:31 PM
 #7

Anyway, two months are more than enough to draw at least some conclusions
"2 months is like 17 seconds in theymos time." - Anonymous Author. You'd be surprised how long some things take, especially when theymos is either busy or has a big 'to-do' list.

Let's not be hypocrites here. If theymos endorsed this idea himself, it would be done much faster and in a more competitive manner, producing a better tool in the end
Why would you want it in a competitive manner? As said, if you have the money, you can get it built up. There are plenty of developers that could do this without struggle. In any case, you could run a development competition as well.

So this is exactly where theymos could help us. I mean by adding more info to the log, so it could be used more efficiently and effectively for the purposes discussed here
I think the information is intentionally withheld. I may be wrong.

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December 31, 2016, 04:06:34 PM
 #8

Anyway, two months are more than enough to draw at least some conclusions
"2 months is like 17 seconds in theymos time." - Anonymous Author. You'd be surprised how long some things take, especially when theymos is either busy or has a big 'to-do' list.

Let's not be hypocrites here. If theymos endorsed this idea himself, it would be done much faster and in a more competitive manner, producing a better tool in the end
Why would you want it in a competitive manner? As said, if you have the money, you can get it built up. There are plenty of developers that could do this without struggle.

So this is exactly where theymos could help us. I mean by adding more info to the log, so it could be used more efficiently and effectively for the purposes discussed here
I think the information is intentionally withheld. I may be wrong.

And how much info would headhunters get if they just saw some user banned?

As to me, providing a full list of banned users per given period in the log won't disclose anything important. But you can't possibly deny the fact that logs are typically more informative in this respect. Basically, you could add in the modlog additional data which could help the headhunters trace committed spammers, farmers and other law violators. I don't know what it could be since I'm not particularly interested in that. In respect to paying money for developing such a utility, you should understand that I'm quite happy with the current situation. I guess the headhunters themselves should pay or develop this utility on their own if they are such fierce fighters with spammers and farmers. In general, I don't very much like this kind of people (though I made a few reports myself when I had seen my own posts copy-pasted), but this is just me

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December 31, 2016, 04:11:24 PM
 #9

Between the lines I read some sort of vendetta against letting people know which accounts are banned.

Ontopic: It would be minutes work to process the Modlog into a BB-format that can be posted. I'd be happy to do it, and keep it updated (using a daily download from a cronjob), if I could get a complete Modlog since the beginning of time. Starting now seems useless, as I miss out on years of data.

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December 31, 2016, 04:12:00 PM
 #10

And how much info would headhunters get if they just saw some user banned?
It would be sufficient to save a fair amount of time for the parties involved. As I've mentioned above, either suggestion would be at least somewhat beneficial to involved parties.

But you can't possibly deny the fact that logs are typically more informative in this respect.
Nobody tried to deny that a full modlog would not be more informative (that's an intuitive conclusion).

In respect to paying money for developing such a utility, you should understand that I'm quite happy with the current situation.
What makes you think that "theymos endorsing" this would make people want to do it for free?

In general, I don't very much like this kind of people (though I made a few reports myself when I had seen my own posts copy-pasted), but this is just me
I hate people who contribute to the forum as well. /s

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December 31, 2016, 04:23:26 PM
 #11

In respect to paying money for developing such a utility, you should understand that I'm quite happy with the current situation.
What makes you think that "theymos endorsing" this would make people want to do it for free?

People have written scripts on their own without any reward just to obtain some statistics from the site. Just like other people are busy searching alt accounts, copy-pasters and their likes for free. Some guy is even running a site estimating how much a Bitcointalk account is worth in bitcoins (I guess you have already evaluated yours). So yes, I do think that if theymos said that he would be glad to see some tool developed based on the modlog for the purpose mentioned, there would soon be enough tools for doing just that...

He would only have to provide the description of the modlog (if there is none yet)

In general, I don't very much like this kind of people (though I made a few reports myself when I had seen my own posts copy-pasted), but this is just me
I hate people who contribute to the forum as well. /s

This is a typical mindset of a woman (so-called "woman's reason"). I didn't say that I hate them because I don't. I just prefer to stay away from such people in real life, that's all

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December 31, 2016, 04:23:26 PM
 #12

The information is already publicly available, so I don't see why the information should not be presented in a more user friendly format.

The modlog however does not include everyone that is banned, and not even everyone that is permmabanned

So this is exactly where theymos could help us. I mean by adding more info to the log, so it could be used more efficiently and effectively for the purposes discussed here
Generally speaking, the bans that are not included in the modlog are bans that would otherwise be a temp ban if a user had not been banned for similar violations multiple times in the past. These bans are also imposed by an admin verses a moderator, and are more likely to be reconsidered after a certain amount of time has elapsed. This is a very high level generalization and will often not be accurate.

I guess the headhunters themselves should pay or develop this utility on their own if they are such fierce fighters with spammers and farmers. In general, I don't very much like this kind of people (though I made a few reports myself when I had seen my own posts copy-pasted), but this is just me
I don't think theymos wants the forum to become too much of a police state. The forum is probably in more of a police state now then it ideally should be.

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December 31, 2016, 04:50:22 PM
 #13

I truly cannot understand your extreme aversion to making things easier for people that want to try and help the forum. From what I've seen your entire argument against the 'Banned' rank is that you don't like the people that would take notice of it, which seems pretty silly to me. If there is more to it, feel free to correct me - I may have missed some parts of what you said.

People have written scripts on their own without any reward just to obtain some statistics from the site. Just like other people are busy searching alt accounts, copy-pasters and their likes for free. Some guy is even running a site estimating how much a Bitcointalk account is worth in bitcoins (I guess you have already evaluated yours). So yes, I do think that if theymos said that he would be glad to see some tool developed based on the modlog for the purpose mentioned, there would soon be enough tools for doing just that...
No doubt. There are problems with this however.
For starters, the biggest problem is that it would not have legacy statistics. While the information collected by a script may be useful later down the line, currently it wouldn't help anything much. All information about every ban given is stored and is at theymos' disposal AFAIK. It would be better to have something official for this reason alone.
This is also making the lives of people that want to use a tool like this more difficult, though no doubt that is your intention. To have to make and maintain a script for general use which would provide incomplete information at best is certainly not as helpful as it being already built into the forum.

(I guess you have already evaluated yours).
Quote from: bctalkaccountpricer.info
Furthermore, this estimator excludes specialty accounts such as Staff, Default Trust, and Satoshi.
Doubt it, not that this is relevant whatsoever.

I didn't say that I hate them because I don't.
I don't very much like this kind of people
Yeah! He didn't say he hated them, just that he didn't like them!

I just prefer to stay away from such people in real life, that's all
This isn't real life. If you don't like people that do this, the forum has a built in 'Ignore' function that is very handy.
Shame that this function was added at the forum's inception though, people should have had to develop external scripts to hide posters that they don't like!

I don't think theymos wants the forum to become too much of a police state. The forum is probably in more of a police state now then it ideally should be.
It's arguable if it's necessary. I doubt the forum is currently serving it's initial purpose to most users, therefore behaviors have to change along with it.
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December 31, 2016, 05:18:51 PM
Last edit: December 31, 2016, 05:34:35 PM by deisik
 #14

I truly cannot understand your extreme aversion to making things easier for people that want to try and help the forum. From what I've seen your entire argument against the 'Banned' rank is that you don't like the people that would take notice of it, which seems pretty silly to me. If there is more to it, feel free to correct me - I may have missed some parts of what you said

Obviously, you didn't get my point correctly

And you may not be able to fully understand and accept it because people are different (just like you can't explain an idea of color to a completely colorblind person). The things which you consider as helpful to the headhunters (let's call them so since it seems to be a fitting name), namely, introducing the Banned rank and similar things (including modlog scripts) would actually be slowly killing the forum not helping it, making it into a sort of police state as has already been noted. Remember, the road to hell is also paved with good intentions

I didn't say that I hate them because I don't.
I don't very much like this kind of people
Yeah! He didn't say he hated them, just that he didn't like them!

I don't like them, but I certainly don't hate them either. In fact, I just don't care about them as long as they don't interfere with my life. But since the latter is impossible with such people, I prefer to just stay away from them (if given choice)

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December 31, 2016, 05:55:32 PM
Last edit: December 31, 2016, 06:23:06 PM by Lauda
 #15

This is a typical mindset of a woman (so-called "woman's reason"). I didn't say that I hate them because I don't. I just prefer to stay away from such people in real life, that's all
Sarcasm. This does seem like a personal vendetta against such type of people, which is not a valid argument.

The things which you consider as helpful to the headhunters (let's call them so since it seems to be a fitting name), namely, introducing the Banned rank and similar things (including modlog scripts) would actually be slowly killing the forum not helping it, making it into a sort of police state as has already been noted.
Classic non sequitur. Your conclusion could either be true or false, but you assume that it will inevitably be true which makes your statement a fallacy. That is, unless you have 'proof' to back something like this up.

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December 31, 2016, 07:22:41 PM
 #16

-snip-
Classic non sequitur. Your conclusion could either be true or false, but you assume that it will inevitably be true which makes your statement a fallacy. That is, unless you have 'proof' to back something like this up.

Deisik might be refering to something specific that I only vaguely remember myself. The idea that every community over a certain size needs some sort of enforcer to maintain a set of rule that have been agreed on in one way or another. Problems occured over when a few of these enforcers had been too pushy when enacting the rules. This eventually led to a split within the community. There was a specific community where this happened and I suspect that deisik either has heard of it, something similar or came to a similar conclusion based on different events.

@Deisik if this sounds only vaguely familiar to you, please let me know. I wanted to look into the story for quite some time, but forgot too many details to get a good starting point.



-snip-
So, is there a need for developing a tool for analyzing this log and representing its data in a more readable format for these activists (and mods alike)?

I personally dont like a very similar tool used for similar reasons, the wallet explorer. It is somewhat established at connecting wallet addresses via inputs, which is imperfect information as well. I think these connections, especially the transactions themselves should be verified by hand. Due to the comfortable tool, this is less and less done when alt accounts are connected.

A similar effect might take place once a tool for the modlog is established. IMHO this is more likely if its externally hosted and the data can no longer by verified. There is a small archive of modlog pages on archive.is[1] and maybe on other similar sites. Since moderation is something moderators should do, I would say that a tool for easier access should be restricted to staff. After all we have to assume that they double check all available data before an account is (perma) banned.

Regardless of my opinion I dont think a tool like this will be implemented in the current forum. Mabye it can be made for epochtalk, maybe epochtalk already has something similar. I didnt look too much into it tbh.

[1] http://archive.is/https://bitcointalk.org/modlog.php
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January 01, 2017, 02:20:54 AM
 #17

I, for one, whole-heartedly support this idea.
If I were to create a thread of list of perma-bans, which would be the right board to create it in?
Reputation board?
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January 01, 2017, 10:24:33 AM
Last edit: January 01, 2017, 01:46:49 PM by deisik
 #18

This is a typical mindset of a woman (so-called "woman's reason"). I didn't say that I hate them because I don't. I just prefer to stay away from such people in real life, that's all
Sarcasm. This does seem like a personal vendetta against such type of people, which is not a valid argument

Why do I feel like your post was actually intended as a hidden accusation in sexism?

Nevertheless, if I don't walk along the railroad tracks, it is a personal vendetta against trains, right? And if I stay away from road traffic, it is a personal vendetta against automobiles, correct? I might prefer ground transport to airline services, but it would be no less than my personal vendetta against airplanes, wouldn't it? I can only assume how many peeps reported on me in the past, though I'm not copy-pasting other users' posts (apart from quoting them, of course) or involved in account-farming. To be honest, sometimes I even regret the latter, namely, that I didn't register a few hundred accounts along with this one back then (to sell them later for a profit), which was not against the rules if I'm not mistaken. But how would you personally treat the people who might have been reporting on you without having anything to do with your life or any reason to interfere with it? Obviously, I don't speak about occasional reporters who see some user copy-pasting another user's post (since this is a permaban in any dimension). I talk mainly about people who totally lose their marbles when they are going after alleged "lawbreakers" here (i.e. compulsive headhunters). I guess you are more familiar with these types than me

The things which you consider as helpful to the headhunters (let's call them so since it seems to be a fitting name), namely, introducing the Banned rank and similar things (including modlog scripts) would actually be slowly killing the forum not helping it, making it into a sort of police state as has already been noted.
Classic non sequitur. Your conclusion could either be true or false, but you assume that it will inevitably be true which makes your statement a fallacy. That is, unless you have 'proof' to back something like this up.

I'm really fascinated how people can't see the forest for the trees

I don't deny that making permabans public (or any bans, for that matter) could somehow help headhunters as well as moderators, but people don't see that it will mainly serve the purpose of bullying and intimidating folks here (see the Law of Unintended Consequences for more info). And still more so if the bans are made visible without revealing the information who gave the ban and for what exactly. In the latter case, anonymous bans would be a total perversion of the idea behind Bitcoin, in a truly Orwellian manner. When I started a thread about the necessity of cancelling Bitcoin halvings on purely economic grounds, I was quickly stigmatized as a traitor to the Bitcoin community and a heretic to the Bitcoin ideals, but I don't see a lot of people rising in righteous indignation against this idea of introducing public bans, though it is even more contrary to the fundamental principles of Bitcoin (namely, giving people freedom from the diktat of the government)

Deisik might be refering to something specific that I only vaguely remember myself. The idea that every community over a certain size needs some sort of enforcer to maintain a set of rule that have been agreed on in one way or another. Problems occured over when a few of these enforcers had been too pushy when enacting the rules. This eventually led to a split within the community. There was a specific community where this happened and I suspect that deisik either has heard of it, something similar or came to a similar conclusion based on different events.

@Deisik if this sounds only vaguely familiar to you, please let me know. I wanted to look into the story for quite some time, but forgot too many details to get a good starting point

In fact, I didn't mean anything such apart from how much that would remind me of 1984

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January 01, 2017, 03:53:17 PM
 #19

Sarcasm. This does seem like a personal vendetta against such type of people, which is not a valid argument
Why do I feel like your post was actually intended as a hidden accusation in sexism?
I actually just wanted to agree with minifrij's observation, but forgot to quote their post.

I'm really fascinated how people can't see the forest for the trees
This is not a valid argument.

If I were to create a thread of list of perma-bans, which would be the right board to create it in?
Reputation board?
I think both Meta and Reputation would be acceptable for something like that in one way or another. Do you plan on doing that or are you just asking out of curiosity?

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January 01, 2017, 04:40:57 PM
 #20

I, for one, whole-heartedly support this idea.
If I were to create a thread of list of perma-bans, which would be the right board to create it in?
Reputation board?

That should work much better the Banned rank. I guess it would require a whole lot less effort and shrink the room for possible "unintended consequences" as well. Eventually, you could even start advertising some service like Mitchell does in his Overview of Bitcointalk Signature Campaigns thread and earn some money to pay for a full-fledged stand-alone utility or service, which would incorporate all the bells and whistles that the modlog could provide by that time or already provides now...

If there will still be a need for it, of course

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