Extreme Dangers of Cashless Society

[RealBitcoin]

So it's 2030, all paper currencies are banned, there is only 1 global currency that is electronic only called The Phoenix

The Phoenix is centrally controlled by a Global Central Bank, and you can only use it via your bank account or by some specially regulated payment processors. You can spend it via your Phone, Bank Card, or from a Chip Implanted under your Skin.

• Johnny said something bad about the banks in an online forum, so his account is now suspended for 30 days as a punishment. Now he can't buy food, and will starve to death.
• Paula has criticized the government so her income tax rate has doubled for 1 year as a punishment which will directly and automatically be levied from her bank account as soon as she gets her salary
• Samuel is organizing a protest against the abusive behavior of the banks. His bank account, and all his family's account are now permanently suspended. Now they are cut off from the world economy since every merchant and every trade is happening inside the electronic banking system, and they will all starve to death.
• Rachel is talking to her friends about the many starving people who had committed these thought crimes, and as a result they are all cutoff from the economy. Now she and all her friends are punished as well. Everybody who is in contact with thought criminals are punished, so that people will self-censor each other. Big Brother loves this

What do you think about the scenario described above? I don't think it's an exaggeration of the future that comes.

How will Bitcoin play a role in this to stop this madness, and avoid an Orwellian New World Order.

[Zadicar]

For me its too exaggerated for thing thing too happen but the possibilties is always there and we would came to a point on which cash would be really banned or step-up into a new form (e-currency). 2030 is too far away from this year and there are so many innovations would really happen along the way and regarding on bitcoin about that year i think it will still exist and used by people but if the thing mentioned above will happen then transaction on bitcoin would be limited i suppose.

[franky1]

to play on the OP's scenario

what if i told you that the 'phoenix' is an LN hub, where everyone's funds are locked into LN multisigs where the counterparty is a hub manager called the Global Banking Group

though i think that the phoenix is going to be what hyperledger is doing. based on the video linked.

but lets see how people feel about bitcoin being twisted into the commercial LN system where the hub owner is the bankers getting their fee's to recoup their investments they handed to devs in 2014-2016

[Yakamoto]

I've never doubted that these are things that could be implemented in a cashless society, and to be honest it's absolutely hilarious when people try to justify it because it's always BS they try to come up with to support it.

I refuse to believe a completely cashless society is a good thing, there must always be physical tokens so that not too much power is concentrated within a small group of people.

[RealBitcoin]

For me its too exaggerated for thing thing too happen but the possibilties is always there and we would came to a point on which cash would be really banned or step-up into a new form (e-currency). 2030 is too far away from this year and there are so many innovations would really happen along the way and regarding on bitcoin about that year i think it will still exist and used by people but if the thing mentioned above will happen then transaction on bitcoin would be limited i suppose.

But you agree that there is a trend toward that? Most mainstream economists agree that the 1 world currency will come eventually.

to play on the OP's scenario

what if i told you that the 'phoenix' is an LN hub, where everyone's funds are locked into LN multisigs where the counterparty is a hub manager called the Global Banking Group

That is still optional.

You can just use another hub.

I've never doubted that these are things that could be implemented in a cashless society, and to be honest it's absolutely hilarious when people try to justify it because it's always BS they try to come up with to support it.

I refuse to believe a completely cashless society is a good thing, there must always be physical tokens so that not too much power is concentrated within a small group of people.

No.

The electronic medium is just a medium. The problem is with centralized power.

Of course the electoronic system is more efficient, however until you get your electricity and internet from centralized providers, Bitcoin won't be completely secure either.


People need to setup their solar power plants, and meshnets. Then and only then will Bitcoin be more secure than Cash, in the power distribution perspective.

[franky1]

That is still optional.

You can just use another hub.

what if i told you that those making LN dont want you to settle funds. they are already highly attracted to channels that never close and penalties for closing channels abruptly. translation: once your in your locked in if you want to change 'banks' closing your account will cost you.

[Xester]

As far as the Conservative Christians is concerned this movement towards a cashless society and the use of microchips in digital fiat currencies is the first step towards new world order. An event wherein the Anti-Christ will rule the world using digital money to suppress and control the society. At this point bitcoin is seen as a test to see if digital money will be a success or bitcoin is the currency that will stop the launch of the digital money that will be controlled by the new world order.

If bitcoin is the hindrance and threat to their plans then they are probably going to destroy bitcoins in order for them to have control in the world.

[RealBitcoin]

That is still optional.

You can just use another hub.

what if i told you that those making LN dont want you to settle funds. they are already highly attracted to channels that never close and penalties for closing channels abruptly. translation: once your in your locked in.

Well I am not that familiar with LN's system, but I can agree with you that if the TX is not settled, it will make Bitcoin a Fractional Reserve Fiat currency.

Since the block confirmation and the limited supply is the only thing that separates a fiat currency from a non-fiat currency.


Maybe LN could have a delayed settling, but not a non-settling.


But either way, it's just an experiment, if BTC fails, others like Monero will take over that already have privacy implemented in it.

[eternalgloom]

I would have probably said that it was an exaggeration in the past, but with some recent laws being passed involving other kinds of censorship, I think this is a plausible scenario.
And this is exactly the reason why anonymous forms of crypto currency are important to have.

[strasboug]

There are dangers of course, being hacked, network disturbance or down can have a severe effect on people's daily life. But I am sure the availability and redundancy of the system will be much better than what we have today.

[Velkro]

What do you think about the scenario described above? I don't think it's an exaggeration of the future that comes.

How will Bitcoin play a role in this to stop this madness, and avoid an Orwellian New World Order.

This examples are not so good you mentioned.
For me the worst of this situation is that, goverments would know EVERYTHING about you. Where you go for shopping, what you buy from shopping, your daily routines, what restaurants you eat and when, what online sexshop u use etc

[RealBitcoin]

What do you think about the scenario described above? I don't think it's an exaggeration of the future that comes.

How will Bitcoin play a role in this to stop this madness, and avoid an Orwellian New World Order.

This examples are not so good you mentioned.
For me the worst of this situation is that, goverments would know EVERYTHING about you. Where you go for shopping, what you buy from shopping, your daily routines, what restaurants you eat and when, what online sexshop u use etc

Yes and then they would craft laws that would prohibit you from buying those things. (Laws like this dont exist yet because they cant be enforced, but in a cashless society, the bureaucrats would love this power)

Like imagine a ban on alcohol, but in the 21 century.


What if the bank itself is the tyrant. What if the bank you are using has a partnership with a supermarket chain, and won't allow you to buy from other supermarkets other than what they are partnered with.

What if you bank doesnt allow you to transfer your money to another bank? Then you are literally forced to buy only things that they allow you.


What if a bank allows you to purchase anything but adds a commission to certain products you are buying, because they can. You know they are reserved the right to update their TOS anytime without notifying you.

They can change their commission plan anytime they want, and since your money is already stored at them (and transfering to another bank would be costly), you are now taxed for buying certain products that they have selected.

[Dudeperfect]

I am posting this probably third time here on bitcointalk in the corresponding discussion but I honestly think that everyone should be aware of the pros and cons of cashless society.

The first step to deal with its cons is to accept the fact that there are some negative sides and only then we would be able to find a solution for it. Do watch this TED talk,

When money isn't real: the $10000 experiment | Adam Carroll

[franky1]

as for the other part of the OP's scenario.. a NFC chip in someones arm..
well first:
they developed the NFC visa debit card 'touchless technology'
next its the NFC wristband. UK barclays is already developed this and will get people used to swiping their wrist across a machine.
https://www.shop.bpay.co.uk/categories/buy-bpay/product/wristband/wristband

even "dudeperfect" highlighted via the ted talk video he linked that disney are also going for the wristband concept to get kids used to paying by swiping their wrist. i set the time in this link to get to that section of the ted talk
https://youtu.be/_VB39Jo8mAQ?t=3m17s

so it is plausable that 'for convenience' people will opt for an implant so they never lose, drop, or have their 'wallet'(wristband) stolen/lost because it will always be available to them, implanted as oppose to worn.

[Rizky Aditya]

For me its too exaggerated for thing thing too happen but the possibilties is always there and we would came to a point on which cash would be really banned or step-up into a new form (e-currency). 2030 is too far away from this year and there are so many innovations would really happen along the way and regarding on bitcoin about that year i think it will still exist and used by people but if the thing mentioned above will happen then transaction on bitcoin would be limited i suppose.

That is true. If there was only one currency in the world, it would obviously be illegal to suspend someone's account and let them starve to death, that is just way to unrealistic. And why would the people around the people who did the wrong thing also getting punished. That is not how it works in the real world.

[RealBitcoin]

as for the other part of the OP's scenario.. a NFC chip in someones arm..
well first:
they developed the NFC visa debit card 'touchless technology'
next its the NFC wristband. UK barclays is already developed this and will get people used to swiping their wrist across a machine.
https://www.shop.bpay.co.uk/categories/buy-bpay/product/wristband/wristband

so it is plausable that 'for convenience' people will opt for an implant so they never lose, drop, or have their 'wallet'(wristband) stolen/lost because it will always be available to them, implanted as oppose to worn.

Interesting.

Well maybe the chip implant  in the head a little over the top. For example, what about a Bitcoin wrist implant? That would not be that bad.

Of course I would not use it, and I would insist for it to be optional.


But it's the content what matters, if the implant is used as a GPS tracking device ,so that disobedient people could be droned, then it's bad.

But if it's just like a Bitcoin wallet, that can be turned off anytime, then it may not be as bad as it sounds.



The only question it really boils down to is this:

Who has control over it? You or the government.

but lets see how people feel about bitcoin being twisted into the commercial LN system where the hub owner is the bankers getting their fee's to recoup their investments they handed to devs in 2014-2016

You know franky I used to think that you were a troll, but now I start to agree with you on certain point. Well maybe they are theoretical, and maybe I am a bit more open minded, but you do raise some good points to possible issues.


But you have to understand that everything now is experimental, all altcoins are like a giant laboratory, where certain things are tested. If Bitcoin tests it with LN, fine, I hope the DEVS will be cautious, like they have been before.

But if they fail, then Monero or Dash will pretty much take over, and their money would show up to be better alternative.

[franky1]

But if they fail, then Monero or Dash will pretty much take over, and their money would show up to be better alternative.

why do you desire monero..

oh wait. the ties to Gmaxwell.. and the blockstream team

can i tell you something..
if bitcoin fails because of blockstreams banker contracts to commercialise bitcoin, going for monero is not freeing you away from this, its just re-rinsing the same plan, by going full circle into yet another currency owned by the same group that may cause bitcoin to fail.

i laugh at anyone thinking that bitcoin is ok to fail, and then mention monero as plan B.. as its obvious those people are happy with letting the banks fail a currency, and they are happy to let it happen over and over again.. which is completely the opposite of satoshi's vision (read the quote in the genesis block to know why bitcoin was invented)

[franky1]

Interesting.

Well maybe the chip implant  in the head a little over the top. For example, what about a Bitcoin wrist implant? That would not be that bad.

Of course I would not use it, and I would insist for it to be optional.

i already thought about that. i think "hardware wallets" are a little cumbersome. and require a computer to USB port the hardware wallet. and downloading electrum or a browser add-on/extension just to make it functional.

the future "killer app" for bitcoin will definitely be a wristband.

advantages
no software touches the device
private keys remain hidden
the device is wearable (new fashion craze=popular)
making a tx is as simple as shaking your wrist
no need to understand the mechanics of bitcoin to use it

[RealBitcoin]

But if they fail, then Monero or Dash will pretty much take over, and their money would show up to be better alternative.

why do you desire monero..

oh wait. the ties to Gmaxwell.. and the blockstream team

can i tell you something..
if bitcoin fails because of blockstreams banker contracts to commercialise bitcoin, going for monero is not freeing you away from this, its just re-rinsing the same plan, by going full circle into yet another currency owned by the same group that may cause bitcoin to fail.

i laugh at anyone thinking that bitcoin is ok to fail, and then mention monero as plan B.. as its obvious those people are happy with letting the banks fail a currency, and they are happy to let it happen over and over again.. which is completely the opposite of satoshi's vision (read the quote in the genesis block to know why bitcoin was invented)

I didnt know that Monero was tied to Maxwell, but that is not the point.

The point is that Bitcoin right now has a consensus system right? Which means that if people dont want LN, it wont happen. Segwit only was 28% support for now, which I dont think is ok, but it's the network's decision and I respect that.

I think Core is better and more professional, but it's up to the network to vote. You wanted democracy, you have it.


I am obviously not ok with Bitcoin failing, however I only said that as a worst case scenario. Bitcoin has a lot of flaws that I have highlighted:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1697411.0

It's not the bankers that will destroy it, but it's own bad design.

And if it were to happen, then monero or other currencies would take over the power vacuum.

Interesting.

Well maybe the chip implant  in the head a little over the top. For example, what about a Bitcoin wrist implant? That would not be that bad.

Of course I would not use it, and I would insist for it to be optional.

i already thought about that. i think "hardware wallets" are a little cumbersome. and require a computer to USB port the hardware wallet. and downloading electrum or a browser add-on/extension just to make it functional.

the future "killer app" for bitcoin will definitely be a wristband.

advantages
no software touches the device
private keys remain hidden
the device is wearable (new fashion craze=popular)
making a tx is as simple as shaking your wrist
no need to understand the mechanics of bitcoin to use it

Yes that would be pretty cool. A rechargable battery charged offline wallet, that is completely isolated with no networking.

But it has which can send a transaction via low freq radio waves to a nearby payment system terminal 30-50 centimeters away. But the private key wont be exposed, and it stays inside the device.

That would be awesome, security + comfort in 1 tool. Hey if anyone reading this wanna build this, we just gave you a million dollar enterprize idea....

[franky1]

i already thought about that. i think "hardware wallets" are a little cumbersome. and require a computer to USB port the hardware wallet. and downloading electrum or a browser add-on/extension just to make it functional.
the future "killer app" for bitcoin will definitely be a wristband.

That would be awesome, security + comfort in 1 tool. Hey if anyone reading this wanna build this, we just gave you a million dollar enterprize idea....

theres already some open source platforms for people to make a prototype smart watch
http://smartwatches.org/learn/make-your-own-smartwatch-open-source-smartwatch-project/

you can even buy 'programmable' smart watches that are already in a final design
https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/programmable-smart-watch.html

"pebble" seem to offer everything from the programmable watch to the SDK to program it
https://www.pebble.com/watches
https://developer.pebble.com/sdk/

though i linked some examples to show the watches can be programmed. im not sure if any have NFC included as that would be the important part that makes it the 'killer app' for bitcoin