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Author Topic: Ripple: A Distributed Exchange for Bitcoin  (Read 65708 times)
JoelKatz
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May 20, 2013, 05:03:04 PM
 #261

If OpenCoin is so "open" why isn't their source open yet?
Because as soon as the source code is open, we have to obtain a community consensus on every change that affects the way a transaction is processed. That would slow down our development tremendously.

Quote
Anyone with closed source code can claim whatever they want with no real proof.
No, because code is not the only form of proof.

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Why not open the source so the truth of how ripple is truly structure in the code is exposed? This reminds me of solidcoin 2 and micro cash which was closed source.
We will and for just that reason. We have a list of things that need to get done before the server code can be open sourced and we're running down that list as quickly as we can.

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May 20, 2013, 05:08:46 PM
 #262

Ripple is a business. Them releasing their source would be like Microsoft or any large software company releasing their code to the public which would make their product now worth a lot less because everyone could get their product for free essentially.
It's different.
Microsoft is taking money by selling his products.
OpenCoin isn't making money on this way, they will making money from XRP.
XRP will incresse their value by incresing adoption of Ripple. This is why Ripple is distributed "free".

The only thing that they will NOT distribute are their private keys of their accounts.

There are two resons so that it is still NOT opensource now:

- It will be a p2p decentralised network.
It's really hard to add features on a decentralised network, as it is now with Bitcoin (many big features are hard to add because they need hard forks)
Their are still testing it and adding other features.

- They are a business company, they need to take money from their work.
So they need to make their network big enough so that other clone-networks will not take too much space on the market.

These two points don't change the logic so that they will release the source code on next months, because, I repeat:
The only thing that they will NOT distribute are their private keys of their accounts.

It's a really good business model, and they are making many people jealous for not being the first to come up with this idea Wink
You should instead be happy for them and waiting for the completion of this new toy that they are making and giving to the community!

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May 20, 2013, 05:10:27 PM
 #263

It's a really good business model, and they are making many people jealous for not being the first to come up with this idea Wink You should instead be happy for them and waiting for the completion of this new toy that they are making and giving to the community!

I fully agree. Another pain point is that people who mine for Bitcoin are likely upset that Ripple's built in currency claims to have more utility than Bitcoin but require no mining, making the miners obsolete.


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May 20, 2013, 05:44:21 PM
 #264

If OpenCoin is so "open" why isn't their source open yet?
Because as soon as the source code is open, we have to obtain a community consensus on every change that affects the way a transaction is processed. That would slow down our development tremendously.

Quote
Anyone with closed source code can claim whatever they want with no real proof.
No, because code is not the only form of proof.

Quote
Why not open the source so the truth of how ripple is truly structure in the code is exposed? This reminds me of solidcoin 2 and micro cash which was closed source.
We will and for just that reason. We have a list of things that need to get done before the server code can be open sources and we're running down that list as quickly as we can.

And that in lies the problem of a project that is open sourced with your expectations...you can't please everyone.

If it were open sourced you would have much more community input and development from people for free. To want to dictate who can and can't modify the code (who gets to type in the code modifications) but have it be open sourced makes no sense. Lol

Sounds like it is primed to be a dictatorial open sourced project.

I think more so that you can't release the code because others would simply fork it and make your code now worth less than before. Call it a form of dilution. You folks as a business have a vested interest as well as your investors not to open the source code.

Saying that too much community input would slow down your development is a cop-out because you could release the code for people to review and ignore input...but that would also be somewhat awkward ignoring customer base input.

Lolz

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May 20, 2013, 05:51:59 PM
 #265

I think more so that you can't release the code because others would simply fork it and make your code now worth less than before. Call it a form of dilution. You folks as a business have a vested interest as well as your investors not to open the source code.

This doesn't sound unreasonable. Let's pretend that its true - OpenCoin is waiting until enough assets are in the current ledger chain to where any fork will not have enough gateway support to be viable. So what? Is it wrong that OpenCoin wants to profit from their work?


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May 20, 2013, 06:08:22 PM
 #266

Saying that too much community input would slow down your development is a cop-out because you could release the code for people to review and ignore input...but that would also be somewhat awkward ignoring customer base input.
We can't release the code for people to review and ignore input. If we ignored input, we'd be in the minority and be ignored. Ripple is based on consensus. As soon as the code is open sourced, other people start running validators, and people start trusting those validators, the network will be run by that consensus. We can make suggestions, but if they are rejected by that consensus, if we follow them, we will be ignored just like any Bitcoin transaction that doesn't meet the rules is ignored.

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
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May 20, 2013, 06:12:12 PM
 #267

I think more so that you can't release the code because others would simply fork it and make your code now worth less than before. Call it a form of dilution. You folks as a business have a vested interest as well as your investors not to open the source code.

This doesn't sound unreasonable. Let's pretend that its true - OpenCoin is waiting until enough assets are in the current ledger chain to where any fork will not have enough gateway support to be viable. So what? Is it wrong that OpenCoin wants to profit from their work?


Lol yes when they hold a huge amount of XRPs. Equivalent to premining an alt chain.

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May 20, 2013, 06:14:40 PM
 #268

Saying that too much community input would slow down your development is a cop-out because you could release the code for people to review and ignore input...but that would also be somewhat awkward ignoring customer base input.
We can't release the code for people to review and ignore input. If we ignored input, we'd be in the minority and be ignored. Ripple is based on consensus. As soon as the code is open sourced, other people start running validators, and people start trusting those validators, the network will be run by that consensus. We can make suggestions, but if they are rejected by that consensus, if we follow them, we will be ignored just like any Bitcoin transaction that doesn't meet the rules is ignored.
So then what is to stop regulators from shutting down open coin?

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May 20, 2013, 06:14:46 PM
 #269

Lol yes when they hold a huge amount of XRPs. Equivalent to premining an alt chain.

It would be equivalent if the only feature in Ripple was the built-in XRP currency. Alt coins don't track balances or have near instant confirmations. They also don't do away with wasteful proof of work. So I disagree that it is equivalent.


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May 20, 2013, 06:16:55 PM
 #270

I think more so that you can't release the code because others would simply fork it and make your code now worth less than before. Call it a form of dilution. You folks as a business have a vested interest as well as your investors not to open the source code.

This doesn't sound unreasonable. Let's pretend that its true - OpenCoin is waiting until enough assets are in the current ledger chain to where any fork will not have enough gateway support to be viable. So what? Is it wrong that OpenCoin wants to profit from their work?


wow, if that's your justification for what's supposedly a healthy fair system, that's a big problem

essentially you're condoning a closed source system that "traps" enough participants and their money into it to the point there is no turning back.

we have one of those already in what's called the Federal Reserve System.  
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May 20, 2013, 06:51:35 PM
 #271

essentially you're condoning a closed source system

As has been stated repeatedly, they plan to open the source code.

Quote
...that "traps" enough participants and their money into it to the point there is no turning back.

Who said that you have to put all your money into XRP? Did I say that? No. Did anyone say that you have to move significant funds into XRP in order to use Ripple? Nope, no one said that either. I'm also not suggesting that you buy XRP - did those words leave my keyboard? Nope. In fact I am very clear that XRPs are quite risky as an investment and that the source code needs to become open in order to succeed.

You are not arguing in good faith. You are merely repeating the same things over and over again without really adding anything into the discussion.


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May 20, 2013, 07:44:05 PM
 #272

Lol yes when they hold a huge amount of XRPs. Equivalent to premining an alt chain.

It would be equivalent if the only feature in Ripple was the built-in XRP currency. Alt coins don't track balances or have near instant confirmations. They also don't do away with wasteful proof of work. So I disagree that it is equivalent.


Yes, XRP are 100% pre-mined by OpenCoin. You just have to admit that. The ripple which tracks balances and keep records for the transaction history does not necessarily need a pre-mined XRP. The XRP should be generated in a more predictable and fairly way. However, the greedy  and evil make you do the most ugly thing an alt coin could do and you just don't admit that you have pre-mined. And you all know that if you opened the source, there will not be much validators who joins your network, but there will lots of alternative Ripple-XRP system show up, and the ones who distribute the XRP in a predictable and fairly way will win the competition, and at the last, the 100% pre-mined XRP will has no value.

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May 20, 2013, 07:56:59 PM
 #273

you all know that if you opened the source, there will not be much validators who joins your network, but there will lots of alternative Ripple-XRP system show up, and the ones who distribute the XRP in a predictable and fairly way will win the competition, and at the last, the 100% pre-mined XRP will has no value.

As a validator, I would prefer OpenCoin have a way to make money and pay lots of developers' salaries instead of the Bitcoin open source model where no company is able to profit directly and they have to go around begging for donations to pay Gavin.


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May 20, 2013, 08:58:12 PM
 #274

you all know that if you opened the source, there will not be much validators who joins your network, but there will lots of alternative Ripple-XRP system show up, and the ones who distribute the XRP in a predictable and fairly way will win the competition, and at the last, the 100% pre-mined XRP will has no value.

As a validator, I would prefer OpenCoin have a way to make money and pay lots of developers' salaries instead of the Bitcoin open source model where no company is able to profit directly and they have to go around begging for donations to pay Gavin.


this is just a sleezy way to describe the situation and represents a true lack of understanding of what open source represents.  as if Bitcoin is having a problem with developers.  pffft.

we just needed to voluntarily fund Gavin's position.  the community has done just that; with no problem.  now, even Garzik has found full employment with BitPay.

Bitcoin is doing fantastic with it's open source model and this weekend's Conference showed just that.
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May 20, 2013, 10:46:19 PM
 #275

Saying that too much community input would slow down your development is a cop-out because you could release the code for people to review and ignore input...but that would also be somewhat awkward ignoring customer base input.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist
This list wouldn't have to exist if bitcoin was still centralized. There are several good and maybe even necessary items on that list that might never make it into bitcoin, thus weakening it, just because it is already completely open.
It's not my position to judge, still maybe this helps you understanding why ripple didn't release their full node code yet - to still have the freedom to implement changes of this kind.

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May 21, 2013, 01:41:24 AM
 #276

It's a really good business model, and they are making many people jealous for not being the first to come up with this idea Wink You should instead be happy for them and waiting for the completion of this new toy that they are making and giving to the community!

I fully agree. Another pain point is that people who mine for Bitcoin are likely upset that Ripple's built in currency claims to have more utility than Bitcoin but require no mining, making the miners obsolete.


mining is half the fun, and its why bitcoin was/is a hit...the novelty of it for geeks, and those who got paid mostly deserved it.
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May 21, 2013, 01:46:32 AM
 #277

It's a really good business model, and they are making many people jealous for not being the first to come up with this idea Wink You should instead be happy for them and waiting for the completion of this new toy that they are making and giving to the community!

I fully agree. Another pain point is that people who mine for Bitcoin are likely upset that Ripple's built in currency claims to have more utility than Bitcoin but require no mining, making the miners obsolete.


mining is half the fun, and its why bitcoin was/is a hit...the novelty of it for geeks, and those who got paid mostly deserved it.

yes, unless these guys mine they'll never understand what drives us miners.  it's empowering for the individual.
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May 21, 2013, 01:50:39 AM
 #278

essentially you're condoning a closed source system

As has been stated repeatedly, they plan to open the source code.

Quote
...that "traps" enough participants and their money into it to the point there is no turning back.

Who said that you have to put all your money into XRP? Did I say that? No. Did anyone say that you have to move significant funds into XRP in order to use Ripple? Nope, no one said that either. I'm also not suggesting that you buy XRP - did those words leave my keyboard? Nope. In fact I am very clear that XRPs are quite risky as an investment and that the source code needs to become open in order to succeed.

You are not arguing in good faith. You are merely repeating the same things over and over again without really adding anything into the discussion.


You said that about me. You are saying the same things over and over.

Also you obviously condone market manipulation huh? You don't think it is so bad.

Wow just wow.

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May 21, 2013, 01:54:28 AM
 #279

Ripple is a business. Them releasing their source would be like Microsoft or any large software company releasing their code to the public which would make their product now worth a lot less because everyone could get their product for free essentially.
It's a really good business model, and they are making many people jealous for not being the first to come up with this idea Wink
You should instead be happy for them and waiting for the completion of this new toy that they are making and giving to the community!


sorry a few others have....just they've been unsuccessful because labelled a scam......ripples so far more successful because of mass promotion and greed of early adopters
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May 23, 2013, 02:20:36 AM
 #280

This is shameless promotion on my part, but I believe I found a way to eliminate the need for 'gateways' and 'trust' between individuals while allowing the other features of ripple (sending any currency, built in exchange) and then some.

1) 'Deposit' and 'Withdraw' any currency without a gateway or 'trust'.
2) Earn interest on deposits in all currencies.
3) Built in exchange between currencies.
4) block-chain based with mining (though I suppose you could implement 'consensus' based approach with pre-mining as a variation).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213588.msg2238954#msg2238954

I am looking for ideas, feedback, criticism, and ideas for improvement.


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