Sweatshops in a realistic light.

[AyeYo]

We can't leave. The central banks have a monopoly on all of the wealth and every first-world state is a cattle state.

Then go move to a third-world state.  Greece was selling island not long ago.  Get a bunch of your nutty libertarian friends together, buy one, and establish liberland.

As long as you choose to sit here and bitch, you choose to follow the rules.  You're free to leave at any time.  You do have a choice.

Once we establish it, you parasites will come and take it. You will consider us a threat because of our prosperity. Everybody would be coming to us eventually.

Stop making excuses and get off your ass and do it.  Everyone had to start somewhere, here's your chance.

[1715451237]

1715451237

[Anonymous]

We can't leave. The central banks have a monopoly on all of the wealth and every first-world state is a cattle state.

Then go move to a third-world state.  Greece was selling island not long ago.  Get a bunch of your nutty libertarian friends together, buy one, and establish liberland.

As long as you choose to sit here and bitch, you choose to follow the rules.  You're free to leave at any time.  You do have a choice.

Once we establish it, you parasites will come and take it. You will consider us a threat because of our prosperity. Everybody would be coming to us eventually.

Stop making excuses and get off your ass and do it.  Everyone had to start somewhere, here's your chance.

I rather live my free life by avoiding my government's policies and moving when called for.

[AyeYo]

We can't leave. The central banks have a monopoly on all of the wealth and every first-world state is a cattle state.

Then go move to a third-world state.  Greece was selling island not long ago.  Get a bunch of your nutty libertarian friends together, buy one, and establish liberland.

As long as you choose to sit here and bitch, you choose to follow the rules.  You're free to leave at any time.  You do have a choice.

Once we establish it, you parasites will come and take it. You will consider us a threat because of our prosperity. Everybody would be coming to us eventually.

Stop making excuses and get off your ass and do it.  Everyone had to start somewhere, here's your chance.

I rather live my free life by avoiding my government's policies and moving when called for.

So then you're just leeching off the system, even moreso than all the welfware recipiants you rail against. LOL How epically ironic...

[Anonymous]

We can't leave. The central banks have a monopoly on all of the wealth and every first-world state is a cattle state.

Then go move to a third-world state.  Greece was selling island not long ago.  Get a bunch of your nutty libertarian friends together, buy one, and establish liberland.

As long as you choose to sit here and bitch, you choose to follow the rules.  You're free to leave at any time.  You do have a choice.

Once we establish it, you parasites will come and take it. You will consider us a threat because of our prosperity. Everybody would be coming to us eventually.

Stop making excuses and get off your ass and do it.  Everyone had to start somewhere, here's your chance.

I rather live my free life by avoiding my government's policies and moving when called for.

So then you're just leeching off the system, even moreso than all the welfware recipiants you rail against. LOL How epically ironic...

I am not taking anything. I might be denying you slave labor but that's far from being a leech.

[LastBattle]

If people in my "country" can loot a minority by will of its numbers, why can't I get together a bunch of guys in my town and rob some neighbors? After all, they consent to being robbed if they don't leave.

That's why your arbitrary standard of concent is a load of horseshit.

That's why pure democracy doesn't exist anywhere.

Humans are fallable, that's why we have laws and basic legal documents like constitutions that secure some basic rights and principles to protect the minority from the majority.  Beyond that, it's all compromise, which really can only be done through a majority vote.

Okay. My buddies set up a constitution with a variety of "laws" that we begin to enforce, but notably allows our enforcers to steal money from our "citizens". Every year we have an election to decide who gets to be an enforcer and who gets extra money taken from them.

Also, what happened to your bullshit about consistency, then? The majority is completely in control except when it isn't? What happened to consistency right there?

What separates a "rightful" government from the mafia? And don't give me that "consent of the governed blah blah" garbage, I didn't consent and neither did many others. Please, seeing as how you think that you have the consistent position and I don't, give me a clear definition of a government that separates it from something some toughs in a town or the Mafia could establish.

The enforces don't steal money from the citizens.  Give me real world proof of government officials DIRECTLY pocketing public money on a large scale.  Is that really what you think happens?  No wonder you're so clueless.


It's completely consistent.  The majority rules WITHIN THE BOUNDS SET BY THE FOUNDING DOCUMENT.  They can do what they want as long as it doesn't violate the ground rules.


The Mafia doesn't hold public votes, last time I checked.  No public meetings, open forms for opinion, etc.  That's the major difference, but feel free to keep bringing the lulz with your hyperbole.

You did give and are continuing to give your consent.  You're free to live at any time.  If you choose to stay, you choose to abide by the rules.

I was being brief. In practical terms, if the state was small enough the enforcers would also be all of the government.

Who makes the founding document legitimate? Does everyone have to agree to it, or do some people declare themselves important and agree to it on behalf of neighbors who don't want to?

You are still dodging my question. Okay, so if the Mafia held public votes and had public meetings, it would be a government? You aren't giving me a CONSISTENT answer. Also, Communist China doesn't have public votes or public meetings. Is Red China an anarchy?

WHERES THE CONSISTENCY? YOU SAID THERE WOULD BE CONSISTENCY

There is a lot of hyperbole, and it is coming from mister "I refuse to define my arguments".

You are free to leave if the mafia is robbing your house, too. I was unaware that not leaving constituted consent. I suppose rape is consensual when the victim doesn't pack up and leave town, too.

[AyeYo]

We can't leave. The central banks have a monopoly on all of the wealth and every first-world state is a cattle state.

Then go move to a third-world state.  Greece was selling island not long ago.  Get a bunch of your nutty libertarian friends together, buy one, and establish liberland.

As long as you choose to sit here and bitch, you choose to follow the rules.  You're free to leave at any time.  You do have a choice.

Once we establish it, you parasites will come and take it. You will consider us a threat because of our prosperity. Everybody would be coming to us eventually.

Stop making excuses and get off your ass and do it.  Everyone had to start somewhere, here's your chance.

I rather live my free life by avoiding my government's policies and moving when called for.

So then you're just leeching off the system, even moreso than all the welfware recipiants you rail against. LOL How epically ironic...

I am not taking anything. I might be denying you slave labor but that's far from being a leech.

If you're living here, you're benefiting from the system, from the clean air, the military protection, the clean water, the inspected food, the subsidized food prices, the public roads, the public electric lines, the public sewer lines, just to name a few things.  You're a leech, and you're the worst kind of leech, the hypocritical kind.

[LastBattle]

We can't leave. The central banks have a monopoly on all of the wealth and every first-world state is a cattle state.

Then go move to a third-world state.  Greece was selling island not long ago.  Get a bunch of your nutty libertarian friends together, buy one, and establish liberland.

As long as you choose to sit here and bitch, you choose to follow the rules.  You're free to leave at any time.  You do have a choice.

Once we establish it, you parasites will come and take it. You will consider us a threat because of our prosperity. Everybody would be coming to us eventually.

Stop making excuses and get off your ass and do it.  Everyone had to start somewhere, here's your chance.

I rather live my free life by avoiding my government's policies and moving when called for.

So then you're just leeching off the system, even moreso than all the welfware recipiants you rail against. LOL How epically ironic...

I am not taking anything. I might be denying you slave labor but that's far from being a leech.

If you're living here, you're benefiting from the system, from the clean air, the military protection, the clean water, the inspected food, the subsidized food prices, the public roads, the public electric lines, the public sewer lines, just to name a few things.  You're a leech, and you're the worst kind of leech, the hypocritical kind.

If a man takes your money at gunpoint and uses it to buy you a car you don't want, are you expected to allow him to continue robbing you while he gives you more things you don't want?

[Anonymous]

We can't leave. The central banks have a monopoly on all of the wealth and every first-world state is a cattle state.

Then go move to a third-world state.  Greece was selling island not long ago.  Get a bunch of your nutty libertarian friends together, buy one, and establish liberland.

As long as you choose to sit here and bitch, you choose to follow the rules.  You're free to leave at any time.  You do have a choice.

Once we establish it, you parasites will come and take it. You will consider us a threat because of our prosperity. Everybody would be coming to us eventually.

Stop making excuses and get off your ass and do it.  Everyone had to start somewhere, here's your chance.

I rather live my free life by avoiding my government's policies and moving when called for.

So then you're just leeching off the system, even moreso than all the welfware recipiants you rail against. LOL How epically ironic...

I am not taking anything. I might be denying you slave labor but that's far from being a leech.

If you're living here, you're benefiting from the system, from the clean air, the military protection, the clean water, the inspected food, the subsidized food prices, the public roads, the public electric lines, the public sewer lines, just to name a few things.  You're a leech, and you're the worst kind of leech, the hypocritical kind.

Uh, no. The air is hardly clean even though they try to say they clean it. The water has been contaminated with fluoride and who knows what. Bad food passes through inspection all the time. The subsidized food prices have actually raised costs. The roads are inefficient and such.

Also, I pay the bill for utilities so fuck you.

If anything, I am refusing to pay because of a breach of contract. The service providers aren't doing their part.

[AyeYo]

We can't leave. The central banks have a monopoly on all of the wealth and every first-world state is a cattle state.

Then go move to a third-world state.  Greece was selling island not long ago.  Get a bunch of your nutty libertarian friends together, buy one, and establish liberland.

As long as you choose to sit here and bitch, you choose to follow the rules.  You're free to leave at any time.  You do have a choice.

Once we establish it, you parasites will come and take it. You will consider us a threat because of our prosperity. Everybody would be coming to us eventually.

Stop making excuses and get off your ass and do it.  Everyone had to start somewhere, here's your chance.

I rather live my free life by avoiding my government's policies and moving when called for.

So then you're just leeching off the system, even moreso than all the welfware recipiants you rail against. LOL How epically ironic...

I am not taking anything. I might be denying you slave labor but that's far from being a leech.

If you're living here, you're benefiting from the system, from the clean air, the military protection, the clean water, the inspected food, the subsidized food prices, the public roads, the public electric lines, the public sewer lines, just to name a few things.  You're a leech, and you're the worst kind of leech, the hypocritical kind.

If a man takes your money at gunpoint and uses it to buy you a car you don't want, are you expected to allow him to continue robbing you while he gives you more things you don't want?

Such terrible analogies, not ballpark or even universe.


If your child decides to stay in your house when they're 20, 30, 40 years old, etc. they need to start paying rent otherwise they're leeching off of you.  The fact that they're sitting in the comfort of your home, being heated by the oil burned in your furnace, munching an apple from your fridge, and bitching and whining that they don't want anything from you, you're extorting rent from them, etc., that doesn't change the fact that they're benefiting from living there, so you WILL charge them rent and you WILL be justified in doing it.  If they don't like to pay rent, they can LEAVE.  If they choose not to leave, they WILL be obligated to keep paying for the benefits their receiving, whether they claim they want them or not.

[Anonymous]

Uh, last I checked, I don't wish to live in public housing nor off food stamps.

[AyeYo]

Uh, last I checked, I don't wish to live in public housing nor off food stamps.

Irrelevant.  I'll repeat myself:

If you're living here, you're benefiting from the system, from the clean air, the military protection, the clean water, the inspected food, the subsidized food prices, the public roads, the public electric lines, the public sewer lines, just to name a few things.  You're a leech, and you're the worst kind of leech, the hypocritical kind.

[Anonymous]

Uh, last I checked, I don't wish to live in public housing nor off food stamps.

Irrelevant.  I'll repeat myself:

If you're living here, you're benefiting from the system, from the clean air, the military protection, the clean water, the inspected food, the subsidized food prices, the public roads, the public electric lines, the public sewer lines, just to name a few things.  You're a leech, and you're the worst kind of leech, the hypocritical kind.

I'm not benefiting from any of that because they don't do any of those things adequately. In fact, even if I do pay, I am not entitled to police protection.

Also, utilities aren't an entitlement.

[AyeYo]

Uh, last I checked, I don't wish to live in public housing nor off food stamps.

Irrelevant.  I'll repeat myself:

If you're living here, you're benefiting from the system, from the clean air, the military protection, the clean water, the inspected food, the subsidized food prices, the public roads, the public electric lines, the public sewer lines, just to name a few things.  You're a leech, and you're the worst kind of leech, the hypocritical kind.

I'm not benefiting from any of that because they don't do any of those things adequately. In fact, even if I do pay, I am not entitled to police protection.

Also, utilities aren't an entitlement.

Do you drive down public roads?  You're benefiting from them.

Have you used tap water, ever?  You've benefited from it.

Are you not speaking German right now?  You've benefited from military protection.

Do you buy food in the US?  You've benefited from farm subsidies.

Do you have ANYTHING in the US?  You've benefited from military interventionism.

Do you breathe?  You've benefited from environment regulations?

Do you interaction with other people, ever?  You've benefited from public education.


You're a leech, and this is an abosolutely hilarious revalation revealing the real depths of your hypocricy.

[LastBattle]

We can't leave. The central banks have a monopoly on all of the wealth and every first-world state is a cattle state.

Then go move to a third-world state.  Greece was selling island not long ago.  Get a bunch of your nutty libertarian friends together, buy one, and establish liberland.

As long as you choose to sit here and bitch, you choose to follow the rules.  You're free to leave at any time.  You do have a choice.

Once we establish it, you parasites will come and take it. You will consider us a threat because of our prosperity. Everybody would be coming to us eventually.

Stop making excuses and get off your ass and do it.  Everyone had to start somewhere, here's your chance.

I rather live my free life by avoiding my government's policies and moving when called for.

So then you're just leeching off the system, even moreso than all the welfware recipiants you rail against. LOL How epically ironic...

I am not taking anything. I might be denying you slave labor but that's far from being a leech.

If you're living here, you're benefiting from the system, from the clean air, the military protection, the clean water, the inspected food, the subsidized food prices, the public roads, the public electric lines, the public sewer lines, just to name a few things.  You're a leech, and you're the worst kind of leech, the hypocritical kind.

If a man takes your money at gunpoint and uses it to buy you a car you don't want, are you expected to allow him to continue robbing you while he gives you more things you don't want?

Such terrible analogies, not ballpark or even universe.


If your child decides to stay in your house when they're 20, 30, 40 years old, etc. they need to start paying rent otherwise they're leeching off of you.  The fact that they're sitting in the comfort of your home, being heated by the oil burned in your furnace, munching an apple from your fridge, and bitching and whining that they don't want anything from you, you're extorting rent from them, etc., that doesn't change the fact that they're benefiting from living there, so you WILL charge them rent and you WILL be justified in doing it.  If they don't like to pay rent, they can LEAVE.  If they choose not to leave, they WILL be obligated to keep paying for the benefits their receiving, whether they claim they want them or not.

Who am "I", though? There is no single individual paying for a taxpayer's quality of life. Furthermore, the taxpayer is not getting benefits for the amount of money he puts in.

Nice handwaving, though.

If you're living here, you're benefiting from the system, from the clean air, the military protection, the clean water, the inspected food, the subsidized food prices, the public roads, the public electric lines, the public sewer lines, just to name a few things.  You're a leech, and you're the worst kind of leech, the hypocritical kind.

What clean air? Have you ever been to LA or New York? I was unaware the GOVERNMENT was responsible for the air being clean.

Military protection? From whom? The foreigners who get bombed at absurd cost to the taxpayer?

Clean water? Like when they cock it up and allow e. coli into the water? How about when they put chemicals I don't want into the water?

Inspected food? You mean when the FDA arrests Amish farmers for selling raw milk? Or when the FDA allows large corporations like Monsanto to get away with selling infected foods?

Subsidized food prices? Yeah, great, I LOVE that the sugar in my Coca Cola is replaced by shitty corn syrup because the government subsidizes corn.

Public roads? The ones that lead to increased car use, pollution, and high gas prices?

Electric lines? The ones that require people be forced out of their homes to build at needlessly expensive prices?

Public sewer lines? Like the ones that end up going straight through the "clean water"?

[AyeYo]

As I've already said, LOTS of bitching and whining about what you're "forced" into... but you're still here, voluntarily. 

[LastBattle]

As I've already said, LOTS of bitching and whining about what you're "forced" into... but you're still here, voluntarily. 

Where is here?

Also, didn't we already cover this? The government doesn't have claim to our land. Additionally, where else is there to go? Please, point me to a place that has no government and I will head there immediately.

Also, your logic is failtastic. By the same logic, the Ukrainians are to blame for being killed by the Soviets, the middle class in Cambodia is to blame for not leaving the country, the Jews in Germany are to blame for not leaving Germany, etc.

I ask again. Where is the consistency?

[LastBattle]

Uh, last I checked, I don't wish to live in public housing nor off food stamps.

Irrelevant.  I'll repeat myself:

If you're living here, you're benefiting from the system, from the clean air, the military protection, the clean water, the inspected food, the subsidized food prices, the public roads, the public electric lines, the public sewer lines, just to name a few things.  You're a leech, and you're the worst kind of leech, the hypocritical kind.

I'm not benefiting from any of that because they don't do any of those things adequately. In fact, even if I do pay, I am not entitled to police protection.

Also, utilities aren't an entitlement.

Do you drive down public roads?  You're benefiting from them.

Have you used tap water, ever?  You've benefited from it.

Are you not speaking German right now?  You've benefited from military protection.

Do you buy food in the US?  You've benefited from farm subsidies.

Do you have ANYTHING in the US?  You've benefited from military interventionism.

Do you breathe?  You've benefited from environment regulations?

Do you interaction with other people, ever?  You've benefited from public education.


You're a leech, and this is an abosolutely hilarious revalation revealing the real depths of your hypocricy.

Apologies for the double post, but this really needs to be said.

If a man accepts benefits from the government, does that mean he consents to government control?
If a slave accepts food from his master, does that mean he consents to his role in life as a slave?

[Anonymous]

Uh, last I checked, I don't wish to live in public housing nor off food stamps.

Irrelevant.  I'll repeat myself:

If you're living here, you're benefiting from the system, from the clean air, the military protection, the clean water, the inspected food, the subsidized food prices, the public roads, the public electric lines, the public sewer lines, just to name a few things.  You're a leech, and you're the worst kind of leech, the hypocritical kind.

I'm not benefiting from any of that because they don't do any of those things adequately. In fact, even if I do pay, I am not entitled to police protection.

Also, utilities aren't an entitlement.

Do you drive down public roads?  You're benefiting from them.

Have you used tap water, ever?  You've benefited from it.

Are you not speaking German right now?  You've benefited from military protection.

Do you buy food in the US?  You've benefited from farm subsidies.

Do you have ANYTHING in the US?  You've benefited from military interventionism.

Do you breathe?  You've benefited from environment regulations?

Do you interaction with other people, ever?  You've benefited from public education.


You're a leech, and this is an abosolutely hilarious revalation revealing the real depths of your hypocricy.

If a slave accepts food from his master, does that mean he consents to his role in life as a slave?

+1 We're done here.

[peach]

Comparing being a slave to being an American citizen...c'mon now.

Cut it with the sensationalism. The reality is far more nuanced than simply declaring the powers-that-be as good or bad.

Although holding polarized, extreme, and largely unexamined opinions might be entertaining, they aren't very productive. Demonizing an entire establishment or group should be left for the middle-school-aged, Rage-Against-The-Machine-Listening kids.

[LastBattle]

Comparing being a slave to being an American citizen...c'mon now.

Cut it with the sensationalism. The reality is far more nuanced than simply declaring the powers-that-be as good or bad.

Although holding polarized, extreme, and largely unexamined opinions might be entertaining, they aren't very productive. Demonizing an entire establishment or group should be left for the middle-school-aged, Rage-Against-The-Machine-Listening kids.

Normally I wouldn't, but it is the exact same train of logic. If it can't stand being put into a similar situation under different circumstances, it is pretty obviously flawed.