The UK Public & Bitcoin

[uMMcQxCWELNzkt]

I want to create this thread, slightly out of frustration although I would also like some thoughts. I will have funds in a few hours and I want to buy Bitcoins. The problem is the UK appears to be very limited in regards to services that will exchange GBP to BTC. At the moment I am aware of Localbitcoins and Bitbargain, are these the only services available for the UK? How can those of us who are UK residents get around this issue, maybe I am just missing something really obvious? I have been really trying to push some of my own Bitcoin projects forwards yet I am getting a growing feeling that I will only be able to target the international market as the UK laws (banks) are rejecting the digital currencies.

How can we convince an ordinary UK citizen to go through the laborious process of exchanging GBP to BTC, just for the pleasures of taking what will feel like a big risk to them. At this early stage I think it is essential that people can move around their money, I can't expect UK customers to purchase from my channels and to be honest, I will probably save myself anyway due to the difficulties above. So are the major banks disabling bank transfers to Bitcoin exchanges or are they using courts and the legal system to do the dirty work?

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[Elwar]

I want to create this thread, slightly out of frustration although I would also like some thoughts. I will have funds in a few hours and I want to buy Bitcoins. The problem is the UK appears to be very limited in regards to services that will exchange GBP to BTC. At the moment I am aware of Localbitcoins and Bitbargain, are these the only services available for the UK? How can those of us who are UK residents get around this issue, maybe I am just missing something really obvious? I have been really trying to push some of my own Bitcoin projects forwards yet I am getting a growing feeling that I will only be able to target the international market as the UK laws (banks) are rejecting the digital currencies.

How can we convince an ordinary UK citizen to go through the laborious process of exchanging GBP to BTC, just for the pleasures of taking what will feel like a big risk to them. At this early stage I think it is essential that people can move around their money, I can't expect UK customers to purchase from my channels and to be honest, I will probably save myself anyway due to the difficulties above. So are the major banks disabling bank transfers to Bitcoin exchanges or are they using courts and the legal system to do the dirty work?

bitspend.net allows you to buy anything on the Internet with bitcoins.

If you ever plan on buying anything on the Internet, you may want to change over to bitcoins.

[btbrae]

There is 10-20% extra commission cost for UK citizens right now and many will pay it just to get a single BTC or thereabouts. Any more and they want a better deal. Until there are better deals they will just buy 1, mostly. Watching localbitcoins.com when somebody comes in with a 5-10% above MtGox spot price for any sizeable amount, say 5000+, it's gone very quickly. The big buyers will go to dollars first, it is the only real option. The UK banks will close you down as soon as they see or hear the word "competition". Sorry, "bitcoin".

[whitenight639]

I use bitbargain, and have found the transactions to be very fast and easy.

You know Bitstamp.net are based in europe and can do SEPA deposits? Although you can only Trade in Dollars I think which is stupid.

[Anonymailer]

Pingit was cool while it lasted. You can still buy here:
http://bitcoinfridge.co.uk

Oh, would this make things any easier?
https://www.entropay.com/entropay-top-five-advantages

I'm not sure or really looking to buy at the moment... just waiting on BFL 

[uMMcQxCWELNzkt]

Thanks for the comments, I was looking at Bitstamp earlier, I think I ended up leave the site as the exchange would require up to 5 days, at the moment I am looking for quick conversions. If I have to I will use Bitbargin or Local, it is a shame though because I can't see the general population sending their money over to anon users like. I know we do that all the time now days but it is one of those things the mainstream would rather just ignore and go back to getting ripped off through their FIAT accounts.

On the brighter side at least we can dabble in international markets and learn from any mistakes, once the UK catches on(hopefully) we might even have our own micro climate.

I just remembered  , Blockchain!!! Thanks for letting me sign up, only to find out that depositing money from the UK has been disabled. This is very annoying considering they list UK as an option before signup, they just have not bothered to update the info I guess.

[bowen151]

This should help you out and you will get a free transfer using the link I have provided

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160181.msg1780968#msg1780968

[uMMcQxCWELNzkt]

This should help you out and you will get a free transfer using the link I have provided

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160181.msg1780968#msg1780968

Thanks, I have bookmarked and I will read through in detail when I am up.

[WikileaksDude]

Guide to buy bitcoins from UK (at the popular exchanges): www.bitcoinUK.blogspot.com

explanation on this bank crackdown @ UK: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bxrrw/playing_devils_advocate_why_bitcoin_will_crash_to/c9b6gr4

[whitenight639]

Thanks for the comments, I was looking at Bitstamp earlier, I think I ended up leave the site as the exchange would require up to 5 days, at the moment I am looking for quick conversions. If I have to I will use Bitbargin or Local, it is a shame though because I can't see the general population sending their money over to anon users like. I know we do that all the time now days but it is one of those things the mainstream would rather just ignore and go back to getting ripped off through their FIAT accounts.

On the brighter side at least we can dabble in international markets and learn from any mistakes, once the UK catches on(hopefully) we might even have our own micro climate.

I just remembered  , Blockchain!!! Thanks for letting me sign up, only to find out that depositing money from the UK has been disabled. This is very annoying considering they list UK as an option before signup, they just have not bothered to update the info I guess.

If you got online banking with faster payments I'd recommend bitbargain I was hesitant at first but the bitcoin they send you is kept in escrow on the site before you even pay anything so they can't just run off with your money, and once u've used a seller once it becomes easier and they won't be as anonymous cos you have they're bank details n name, so you can just keep using the same same seller if you prefer.

[btbrae]

You're recommending Bitbargain at what, more than 50% above spot price? So I pay £100 for a bitcoin at bitbargain right now when the gox spot is £61.30. Don't get me wrong I'm all for their service but let's not try to peddle extortionate prices onto newbies and suppose to them that they're getting a fair deal. I would go with Bowen151's suggestion.

[loveliness]

The two best ways at the moment are using Transferwise to Bitstamp (£1 charge for the conversion) and using Bitcoinfridge.

The chap who runs Bitcoinfridge is really professional and fast. I've emailed him at 2/3am before and he has replied in minutes.

Good luck.

[montgolfier]

This should help you out and you will get a free transfer using the link I have provided

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160181.msg1780968#msg1780968

What he said!

I've used this service twice now and it's cheap as chips, plus good support!

Funds do take 3 working days to arrive at the exchange though.

[botsofbitcoin]

I (and many others) sell at LocalBitcoin for a reasonable markup. Rarely as high as 50% - perhaps when it's really volatile and I'm expecting a big bounce back. More normally it's around 20% - 30%. It's usually about enough to cover the movement in price in the time it takes to buy back in again on an exchange, plus a bit of profit. The benefit is you get your coins within an hour in most cases if you're using UK bank transfer and your bank supports faster payments.

I wouldn't necessarily trust a new seller but there are plenty of sellers on there with details verified through OTC, who've made lots of smooth trades and who have the feedback to prove it.

If you can wait though, the TransferWise/Bitstamp route only takes a few days.

[uMMcQxCWELNzkt]

I accidentally posted this on a linked thread.

"Lots of issues with Transferwise. I got to the payment stage where I had the Bank Transfer and the Debit card options. However I could not complete either. My card is Visa but not verified so I was getting errors and it turns out in order to send money to a new payee I need a PINsentry device which is going to take 7 days to arrive lol."

Until I see a decent price on Localbitcoins or Bitbargain I will hold, I still think there is room for prices to drop a little anyway. *Now that I think about it I don't think I could even send a payment through Localbitcoins or Bitbargain anyway. I think my only option is to wait for the PINstentry card reader to arrive.  *

[nwbitcoin]

Just because the US and the UK share a language, doesn't mean they share the same attitude!

I've been involved with a lot of early adopter projects over the years, and while its great seeing people wanting to shout from the rooftops about their new finds, you will find most of the public really don't care! The UK public are becoming more and more reliant on officials and the media telling them if they should get involved with things, and with no feedback, they tend to just assume its bad!

However, I have been selling bitcoins using localbitcoins for a short while to local enthusiasts, and it works for me.  I charge 10% over MTGox, and try and deal only in cash as it keeps costs down. I think its going to be another year before we see any real movement in the UK to recognise bitcoins as a legitimate way of buying and selling on the internet, but I have a feeling we might end up with a two tier market of below the radar trading, and big institutional trading, with about a 50% difference in their prices!

Ironically, for a country that gave the world Adam Smith, the father of free market economics, we like our cartels!

[botsofbitcoin]

*Now that I think about it I don't think I could even send a payment through Localbitcoins or Bitbargain anyway. I think my only option is to wait for the PINstentry card reader to arrive.  *

Unless there's someone local for you.

[reg]

hi, I was going to recommend transferwise as I use them but you have already gone that route. the first payment does take longer (3 days for me) but once set up usually within 48 hrs plus it costs only £1 !!!
also I use bitcoin central to buy btc currently around 96 euros,

reg.



      tips:    1HuDKnHJy73CC2QjbqRrixTEzHd3EFEfRs

[Stephen Gornick]

So are the major banks disabling bank transfers to Bitcoin exchanges or are they using courts and the legal system to do the dirty work?

Well, Max Keiser is building a UK exchange now -- so they must have some bank willing to play along.

But until then, simply bypass GBP by converting it to EUR:

Which exchanges allow me to transfer funds from my TransferWise account?
 - http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/8149

Or, ... other methods include:

Bitbargain.co.uk:
 - https://bitbargain.co.uk

Bitcoin Fridge (re-opened):
 - http://www.BitcoinFridge.co.uk

[DeeSome]

I totally understand where you are coming from, UK is rip off when it comes to bitcoin. I have looked into all the methods posted here, as op stated Localbitcoins and Bitbargain seem rather expensive, one guy is advertising to buy at £40 on one site and is selling at £100 on the other. Extortionate UK bank charges for international transfers make the big exchanges nonviable for someone just wanting one or two coins to get into the system, BitcoinFridge seems to have died, I put in a buy request and have had no response and other methods take at least 48 hours, which is unrealistic when prices can move by as much as £20 in an hour.
There must be many more people like the op and myself here in UK who are frustrated at the situation here, especially when you consider that for example I bought a laptop battery from Hong Kong on ebay, paid by paypal and received it within 3 days and yes I understand the problems re paypal chargebacks.
It seems the rest of the world doesn't trust the British banking system, can't say I blame em with George Osborne in charge.

[matthewh3]

I totally understand where you are coming from, UK is rip off when it comes to bitcoin. I have looked into all the methods posted here, as op stated Localbitcoins and Bitbargain seem rather expensive, one guy is advertising to buy at £40 on one site and is selling at £100 on the other. Extortionate UK bank charges for international transfers make the big exchanges nonviable for someone just wanting one or two coins to get into the system, BitcoinFridge seems to have died, I put in a buy request and have had no response and other methods take at least 48 hours, which is unrealistic when prices can move by as much as £20 in an hour.
There must be many more people like the op and myself here in UK who are frustrated at the situation here, especially when you consider that for example I bought a laptop battery from Hong Kong on ebay, paid by paypal and received it within 3 days and yes I understand the problems re paypal chargebacks.
It seems the rest of the world doesn't trust the British banking system, can't say I blame em with George Osborne in charge.

No its just UK banks charge extortionate fees for international and even just EU intra-SEPA transfers for UK personal accounts.  You can tho use TransferWise to get money into Bitstamp or MtGox for just £1 but I'm not sure if it works the same for withdrawals.

[DeeSome]

I totally understand where you are coming from, UK is rip off when it comes to bitcoin. I have looked into all the methods posted here, as op stated Localbitcoins and Bitbargain seem rather expensive, one guy is advertising to buy at £40 on one site and is selling at £100 on the other. Extortionate UK bank charges for international transfers make the big exchanges nonviable for someone just wanting one or two coins to get into the system, BitcoinFridge seems to have died, I put in a buy request and have had no response and other methods take at least 48 hours, which is unrealistic when prices can move by as much as £20 in an hour.
There must be many more people like the op and myself here in UK who are frustrated at the situation here, especially when you consider that for example I bought a laptop battery from Hong Kong on ebay, paid by paypal and received it within 3 days and yes I understand the problems re paypal chargebacks.
It seems the rest of the world doesn't trust the British banking system, can't say I blame em with George Osborne in charge.

No its just UK banks charge extortionate fees for international and even just EU intra-SEPA transfers for UK personal accounts.  You can tho use TransferWise to get money into Bitstamp or MtGox for just £1 but I'm not sure if it works the same for withdrawals.

I keep seeing people trying to push TransferWise but like I said before 48 hours is too long to make a translation with the current volatility of Bitcoin.
 
I don't have to go to the newsagents to buy meat tokens so I can then go to the butchers to buy some sausages so I don't want to be changing my currency through third party sites to make a purchase of Bitcoin.

[uMMcQxCWELNzkt]

I totally understand where you are coming from, UK is rip off when it comes to bitcoin. I have looked into all the methods posted here, as op stated Localbitcoins and Bitbargain seem rather expensive, one guy is advertising to buy at £40 on one site and is selling at £100 on the other. Extortionate UK bank charges for international transfers make the big exchanges nonviable for someone just wanting one or two coins to get into the system, BitcoinFridge seems to have died, I put in a buy request and have had no response and other methods take at least 48 hours, which is unrealistic when prices can move by as much as £20 in an hour.
There must be many more people like the op and myself here in UK who are frustrated at the situation here, especially when you consider that for example I bought a laptop battery from Hong Kong on ebay, paid by paypal and received it within 3 days and yes I understand the problems re paypal chargebacks.
It seems the rest of the world doesn't trust the British banking system, can't say I blame em with George Osborne in charge.

No its just UK banks charge extortionate fees for international and even just EU intra-SEPA transfers for UK personal accounts.  You can tho use TransferWise to get money into Bitstamp or MtGox for just £1 but I'm not sure if it works the same for withdrawals.

I keep seeing people trying to push TransferWise but like I said before 48 hours is too long to make a translation with the current volatility of Bitcoin.

To be honest I think the TransferWise pushing is partly due to the affiliate program lol. Regardless it is one of the very few options available s...o . It does kind of negate the whole instantly sending coins when it can take days just to get the BTC into an account. Whoever does find a way around this could dominate the UK market, I don't really believe the UK citizens trust their government. At least all the people I know hate every banker/politician and would rather those corrupt officials got sent to the highest volcano peak and asked politely to jump of the edge.

[matthewh3]

I totally understand where you are coming from, UK is rip off when it comes to bitcoin. I have looked into all the methods posted here, as op stated Localbitcoins and Bitbargain seem rather expensive, one guy is advertising to buy at £40 on one site and is selling at £100 on the other. Extortionate UK bank charges for international transfers make the big exchanges nonviable for someone just wanting one or two coins to get into the system, BitcoinFridge seems to have died, I put in a buy request and have had no response and other methods take at least 48 hours, which is unrealistic when prices can move by as much as £20 in an hour.
There must be many more people like the op and myself here in UK who are frustrated at the situation here, especially when you consider that for example I bought a laptop battery from Hong Kong on ebay, paid by paypal and received it within 3 days and yes I understand the problems re paypal chargebacks.
It seems the rest of the world doesn't trust the British banking system, can't say I blame em with George Osborne in charge.

No its just UK banks charge extortionate fees for international and even just EU intra-SEPA transfers for UK personal accounts.  You can tho use TransferWise to get money into Bitstamp or MtGox for just £1 but I'm not sure if it works the same for withdrawals.

I keep seeing people trying to push TransferWise but like I said before 48 hours is too long to make a translation with the current volatility of Bitcoin.

To be honest I think the TransferWise pushing is partly due to the affiliate program lol. Regardless it is one of the very few options available s...o . It does kind of negate the whole instantly sending coins when it can take days just to get the BTC into an account. Whoever does find a way around this could dominate the UK market, I don't really believe the UK citizens trust their government. At least all the people I know hate every banker/politician and would rather those corrupt officials got sent to the highest volcano peak and asked politely to jump of the edge.

There was only ever really one way to buy coins on an exchange quickly and that was at Intersango plus that only lasted for a few months the rapid deposits until they were shut down for banking reasons.  It's always taken days to get money into MtGox AFAIK especially from the UK.

EDIT:  They has always been a massive demand for bitcoins in the UK.  Before Intersango shut down and MtGox Barclay's stopped, GBP was the second most traded fiat pair with BTC after USD.  The problems in the UK are probably suppressing the average bitcoin price IMO.  If you could get GBP into an exchange with instant free UK bank transfers I think they'd be a much bigger buying demand for bitcoins.  If you could open an exchange like MtGox that accepted instant free GBP deposits (and withdrawals) you could corner at least 10% of exchange traded volume.  Or around at least >£30Million ($40Million, EUR35Million) a month in trade.  It's just the money laundering laws in the UK are so tight that HSBC has to go to Mexico to do it 

[solomon]

People are suggesting TW because it works. You can't have it both ways, you can have speed at a premium, or cheaper transactions that take longer.
Before about a month ago my transfers (Bank->TransferWise->Bitstamp) were taking around 18-36 hours. Recently it's taking much longer, around a week which i assume is the increased demand they've been having.

[botsofbitcoin]

I think with the TransferWise -> Bitstamp route it's actually Bitstamp (or at least their bank) that are the slow link. If you pay the £17 per £1000 to speed the transfer then that seems to go through from the TW end within a few hrs. Once it's gone it can take another 24 hrs to clear to Bitstamp. More at the weekend.

By the way, I'm only recommending this route to let people know that I'm doing my best to keep my margins down on Local Bitcoins if they need coins quickly. My affiliate link is only going to my friends.

[Lethos]

During my time buying/selling bitcoins as someone from the UK, I have found the trade between £ and Btc more expensive just because I have a Uk bank account, due not to the exchange itself, but the fees from what I can tell charged for the international transfer of funds to my account, due to the fact so few if any exchanges can establish a stable base here in the UK.
If Exchanges could have a banking base in the UK, their is no reason for high fees, like £30-50. I don't blame the exchanges for this problem, I'm aware out banking industry has made it anywhere from difficult to impossible for them.

The cost I told myself at the time was worth it, as I only did it as a for need basis. Giving more appropriate timing I might not needed to do them at all. I could of done without the 3-5% taken off it when I was trading in 4 figures worth.

There is methods of trade out there outside of the exchanges, but it certainly does not provide the same sort of stability in price or risk management. I do look forward to a UK based exchange their is enough trade to make it worth while.

I have tried more than a few exchanges, but even European based ones suffer the problem of transfer fees. Bitcoin Central was my most recent exchange I use, based in France it didn't seem to change the fact I still get hit with the same high fees of exchanges based outside of Europe.

[airsheep]

Supposing a UK based exchange did manage to satisfy the banks and regulatory agencies that it was in compliance with all the relevant legislation, would anyone actually use it?

The Money Laundering / Terrorism / Payment Services regulations would seem to suggest that a compliant UK exchange would look something like this ...

Registration would involve:
- Sending a certified copy of Passport / Driving Licence (that is, a copy signed by e.g. an accountant / notary / bank manager).
- And a certified copy of a recent bank statement (not an online one!).
- Entering your address history for the last three years.
- Consenting to a credit check / electoral roll search.
- Waiting for a secret code to arrive by post and entering that to verify current address.

There would be no ability to send or receive bitcoins other than to/from a single bitcoin address you control. Changing that bitcoin address would probably require a lengthy process involving sending documents by post.

Deposits and withdrawals would involve paying a 1% fee to cover bank charges (faster payments aren't free for businesses). They would only be possible to/from your verified bank account (which must be in your name).

Additional fees would probably have to be levied to cover the cost of regulatory compliance - say 0.5% on every trade.

Any transaction you make (deposit, withdrawal, trade) may be suspended for up to a week if it looks a bit unusual or suspicious - but the exchange wouldn't be able to tell you why they suspended it, since that would be a criminal offence ("Tipping Off").

Deposits and Withdrawals above £10K (or that add up to £10K per month, or that look "a bit funny") would probably require such extensive due diligence that even talking about the due diligence is illegal.

Sounds fun, eh? Any ideas for domain names - I notice www.painfulbitcoins.co.uk is free.

[btbrae]

Supposing a UK based exchange did manage to satisfy the banks and regulatory agencies that it was in compliance with all the relevant legislation, would anyone actually use it?

The Money Laundering / Terrorism / Payment Services regulations would seem to suggest that a compliant UK exchange would look something like this ...

Registration would involve:
- Sending a certified copy of Passport / Driving Licence (that is, a copy signed by e.g. an accountant / notary / bank manager).
- And a certified copy of a recent bank statement (not an online one!).
- Entering your address history for the last three years.
- Consenting to a credit check / electoral roll search.
- Waiting for a secret code to arrive by post and entering that to verify current address.

There would be no ability to send or receive bitcoins other than to/from a single bitcoin address you control. Changing that bitcoin address would probably require a lengthy process involving sending documents by post.

Deposits and withdrawals would involve paying a 1% fee to cover bank charges (faster payments aren't free for businesses). They would only be possible to/from your verified bank account (which must be in your name).

Additional fees would probably have to be levied to cover the cost of regulatory compliance - say 0.5% on every trade.

Any transaction you make (deposit, withdrawal, trade) may be suspended for up to a week if it looks a bit unusual or suspicious - but the exchange wouldn't be able to tell you why they suspended it, since that would be a criminal offence ("Tipping Off").

Deposits and Withdrawals above £10K (or that add up to £10K per month, or that look "a bit funny") would probably require such extensive due diligence that even talking about the due diligence is illegal.

Sounds fun, eh? Any ideas for domain names - I notice www.painfulbitcoins.co.uk is free.

Well when you put it like that...

[DeeSome]

To be honest I think the TransferWise pushing is partly due to the affiliate program lol. Regardless it is one of the very few options available s...o . It does kind of negate the whole instantly sending coins when it can take days just to get the BTC into an account. Whoever does find a way around this could dominate the UK market, I don't really believe the UK citizens trust their government. At least all the people I know hate every banker/politician and would rather those corrupt officials got sent to the highest volcano peak and asked politely to jump of the edge.

+100 

[Paul89273]

No its just UK banks charge extortionate fees for international and even just EU intra-SEPA transfers for UK personal accounts.  You can tho use TransferWise to get money into Bitstamp or MtGox for just £1 but I'm not sure if it works the same for withdrawals.

My bank charges £25 per SEPA transfer, what a joke!

[uMMcQxCWELNzkt]

Supposing a UK based exchange did manage to satisfy the banks and regulatory agencies that it was in compliance with all the relevant legislation, would anyone actually use it?

The Money Laundering / Terrorism / Payment Services regulations would seem to suggest that a compliant UK exchange would look something like this ...

Registration would involve:
- Sending a certified copy of Passport / Driving Licence (that is, a copy signed by e.g. an accountant / notary / bank manager).
- And a certified copy of a recent bank statement (not an online one!).
- Entering your address history for the last three years.
- Consenting to a credit check / electoral roll search.
- Waiting for a secret code to arrive by post and entering that to verify current address.

There would be no ability to send or receive bitcoins other than to/from a single bitcoin address you control. Changing that bitcoin address would probably require a lengthy process involving sending documents by post.

Deposits and withdrawals would involve paying a 1% fee to cover bank charges (faster payments aren't free for businesses). They would only be possible to/from your verified bank account (which must be in your name).

Additional fees would probably have to be levied to cover the cost of regulatory compliance - say 0.5% on every trade.

Any transaction you make (deposit, withdrawal, trade) may be suspended for up to a week if it looks a bit unusual or suspicious - but the exchange wouldn't be able to tell you why they suspended it, since that would be a criminal offence ("Tipping Off").

Deposits and Withdrawals above £10K (or that add up to £10K per month, or that look "a bit funny") would probably require such extensive due diligence that even talking about the due diligence is illegal.

Sounds fun, eh? Any ideas for domain names - I notice www.painfulbitcoins.co.uk is free.

Do those regulations apply to digital currency though? I mean, say for example I create a game and you can purchase digital items with Bitcoins, how can the government say no, no video game currency for you and what makes the currency any different legally speaking? I hope this does not come across as disagreeing, the more I think about it the more I start to think it is BS and the regulation is biased. What if, I created a game where you could store GBP in a virtual character and over an international server, that currency was converted to BTC, then instead of trading with BTC you could sell/buy the virtual characters. I guess that is the same concept as selling wallets but people sell video game characters all the time, perhaps this is a loophole?

Also www.painfulbitcoins.co.uk is dead, don't tell me the bankers got them too lol.

[nwbitcoin]

The big problem is that the cat is out of the bag for bitcoin.  The regulators know it exists, and are already putting things in place to stop it becoming an issue in the future.

I still think looking at the way telecom companies sell credits is a viable way to sell bitcoins, but because everyone knows bitcoins are a currency, its not going to take a genius to see that just calling them credits is going to have any effect.

Maybe the answer is to cut the cord between fiat and bitcoin in the UK?  Treat bitcoins as a poker chip which represents a real value, but in itself has no value.  We would possibly need a lawyer to work out the wording, but if we had an agreement that retailers could buy and sell with bitcoins as long as they redeemed them at a fixed price with an official of some sort, we could make the process of getting on board as a user much easier?

God, I hate the way paperwork is so overwhelming in the UK!!

[matthewh3]

No its just UK banks charge extortionate fees for international and even just EU intra-SEPA transfers for UK personal accounts.  You can tho use TransferWise to get money into Bitstamp or MtGox for just £1 but I'm not sure if it works the same for withdrawals.

My bank charges £25 per SEPA transfer, what a joke!

I know, the UK is part of the SEPA zone it should take a similar time and cost for a SEPA transaction in the UK as else where in the zone.  I know they have to convert GBP/EUR but that shouldn't be too expensive as all big money transfers is basically just binary and not the exchange of actual notes and coins.  The more stupid the banks are like that the bigger a benefit for bitcoins even if it makes it more expensive as a whole to buy bitcoins in the UK due to the costs of international arbitrage.

If you look back the 1980's there was a limit on the amount of money you could take on holiday out of the UK.  The current situation is probably in effect due to the legacy of that monetary policy.  Until a similar time you wasn't even allowed to buy physical bullion you needed a coin collectors license. 

[rizq]

Very funny and ironic, but i started selling on Bitbargain today and the markups are less than 10%.
One seller is selling for £64 as we speak the mtgox rate is £62.48.
I dont know if things are like this for today only, but as the sellers on both websites increase the competition is fierce. I am telling you its a bloodbath out there, i simply can't compete anymore. FYI i am selling at 6% mtgox rate.

Considering the fees involved with other methods, today the UK is king.

Check it out for yourself if you like.

One chap on localbitcoins is selling for £61.99

These dirt cheap prices in UK might be a sign that demand for bitcoin is dwindling.

Thought i would jump the bandwagon and share the spoils having seen the average markups of the past couple of weeks, seems like i am too late.

[oblongmeteor]

There are some things only Bitcoin can buy... Whatever your view on the wares they peddle, these businesses are pretty much the main and only real economic justification for Bitcoins - they force it to be used as a currency not hoarded as a commodity. If not for them Bitcoin would likely exist only as a curiosity. For those who are wondering which businesses I'm talking about specifically; Silk Road, Black Market Reloaded and all the other darknet enterprises that offer 'legally ambiguous' wares and services. (read: websites running on the Tor - https://www.torproject.org/ - network)

[SAQ]

Has anyone tried bitcoin.de? They say they accept moneybookers which is identical to paypal.

[greBit]

Supposing a UK based exchange did manage to satisfy the banks and regulatory agencies that it was in compliance with all the relevant legislation, would anyone actually use it?

The Money Laundering / Terrorism / Payment Services regulations would seem to suggest that a compliant UK exchange would look something like this ...

Registration would involve:
- Sending a certified copy of Passport / Driving Licence (that is, a copy signed by e.g. an accountant / notary / bank manager).
- And a certified copy of a recent bank statement (not an online one!).
- Entering your address history for the last three years.
- Consenting to a credit check / electoral roll search.
- Waiting for a secret code to arrive by post and entering that to verify current address.

There would be no ability to send or receive bitcoins other than to/from a single bitcoin address you control. Changing that bitcoin address would probably require a lengthy process involving sending documents by post.

Deposits and withdrawals would involve paying a 1% fee to cover bank charges (faster payments aren't free for businesses). They would only be possible to/from your verified bank account (which must be in your name).

Do you think registering for a UK compliant exchange would require significantly more effort than say getting a verified Paypal account? Though I suppose it may depend on the size of the funds the customers need to move around.

There are a fair few business bank accounts that offer free FPS transfers - Barclays for one.

I think its about time someone made the effort to start a legit exchange in the UK that complies with the regulations and doesn't get its accounts shut down!

[matthewh3]

Supposing a UK based exchange did manage to satisfy the banks and regulatory agencies that it was in compliance with all the relevant legislation, would anyone actually use it?

The Money Laundering / Terrorism / Payment Services regulations would seem to suggest that a compliant UK exchange would look something like this ...

Registration would involve:
- Sending a certified copy of Passport / Driving Licence (that is, a copy signed by e.g. an accountant / notary / bank manager).
- And a certified copy of a recent bank statement (not an online one!).
- Entering your address history for the last three years.
- Consenting to a credit check / electoral roll search.
- Waiting for a secret code to arrive by post and entering that to verify current address.

There would be no ability to send or receive bitcoins other than to/from a single bitcoin address you control. Changing that bitcoin address would probably require a lengthy process involving sending documents by post.

Deposits and withdrawals would involve paying a 1% fee to cover bank charges (faster payments aren't free for businesses). They would only be possible to/from your verified bank account (which must be in your name).

Do you think registering for a UK compliant exchange would require significantly more effort than say getting a verified Paypal account? Though I suppose it may depend on the size of the funds the customers need to move around.

There are a fair few business bank accounts that offer free FPS transfers - Barclays for one.

I think its about time someone made the effort to start a legit exchange in the UK that complies with the regulations and doesn't get its accounts shut down!

IIRC Max Kieser said he's trying to build a new London exchange.

[greBit]

Also, isn't BitStamp a UK limited company ...

Though I could not find mention of them on the HMRC/FSA registers to show that they are compliant with the AML stuff...

[bowen151]

IIRC Max Kieser said he's trying to build a new London exchange.

Seem to recall this also, has there been any news regarding any other possible uk exchanges that may be on the horizon?

[matthewh3]

IIRC Max Kieser said he's trying to build a new London exchange.

Seem to recall this also, has there been any news regarding any other possible uk exchanges that may be on the horizon?

Not that I've heard of.  Which is a shame as an exchange with access to free and instant UK internet banking transfers would have a lot of business.

[uMMcQxCWELNzkt]

IIRC Max Kieser said he's trying to build a new London exchange.

Seem to recall this also, has there been any news regarding any other possible uk exchanges that may be on the horizon?

Not that I've heard of.  Which is a shame as an exchange with access to free and instant UK internet banking transfers would have a lot of business.

I thought I would bold this just in case people with the capital are weighing up the pros and cons, don't let size and modesty fool you in regards to the UK!

[nak]

BitStamp have upped their game. I made a deposit via TW last Friday. It was a priority payment to my BitStamp account. The funds were available 4 hours later.

[anarchy]

http://blockchain.info/wallet/deposit-methods

UK bank transfer, barclays pingit, and sofort

[DeeSome]

http://blockchain.info/wallet/deposit-methods

UK bank transfer, barclays pingit, and sofort

Not any more, currently there is no way to add funds from UK on blockchain.info.

[nobbynobbynoob]

http://blockchain.info/wallet/deposit-methods

UK bank transfer, barclays pingit, and sofort

Not any more, currently there is no way to add funds from UK on blockchain.info.

And yet they (erroneously it seems) still show Sofort as a legit UK funding option. *sigh*

[uMMcQxCWELNzkt]

http://blockchain.info/wallet/deposit-methods

UK bank transfer, barclays pingit, and sofort

Not any more, currently there is no way to add funds from UK on blockchain.info.

And yet they (erroneously it seems) still show Sofort as a legit UK funding option. *sigh*

I think I mentioned that before, I signed up only to find out that they do not allow UK deposits anymore, it seems they have conveniently forgotten to update.

[Traktion]

Now TransferWise have had the rug pulled from under them: Their bank has told them to stop transferring money to Bitcoin exchanges.

http://transferwise.com/blog/2013-04/notice-to-bitcoin-users-april-2013

The UK banking system is a joke. They don't like the competition, for sure.

Notice to Bitcoin users - April 2013

As you may have noticed, we stopped processing transfers to Bitcoin exchanges this week. We’re very sorry.
 
In many respects it breaks our heart to have taken this step (we’re a firm that champions financial innovation after all), but our banking providers are not comfortable with Bitcoin and want us to restrict payments to these firms. This is happening everywhere - notably Bitfloor and Bitcoin-24 shut themselves down recently.
 
The banks – just like everyone else in the sector – are nervous because they don't know what to think of Bitcoin. The regulators and politicians’ silence on the topic leaves us all in the dark.
 
Financial firms make choices on the basis of clear rules. Without them, things like Bitcoin fall into the hands of those who use it for illegal activities. This leaves businesses like ours that meet their obligation to anti-money laundering and “Know Your Customer” procedures unable to deal with it.
 
It’s a shame because Bitcoin offers solutions to some of the absurdities of the traditional banking system. For example, a virtual currency like Bitcoin could dramatically speed up and reduce the cost of sending money abroad. It’s ridiculous that it can take four banks (all taking a cut) over a week to send dollars from a UK company to a Chinese producer. Implementing this change alone could save the real economy billions of pounds in card fees and transaction costs every year.
 
And it’s not just the big guys that would benefit. It could transform the prospects of millions of small businesses. The reduced cost and simplicity of a digital currency could circumvent laborious bank processes and give small merchants quick, fairly-priced access to online and mobile payments.
 
But to gain any of these benefits, the financial regulators need to take a stand. They have many questions to answer - how should the banks treat Bitcoin? Should it be regarded as cash or something new? Are new and specifically tailored “Know Your Customer” rules necessary? Unless the banks are told what is expected of them, they will happily keep on blocking Bitcoin, and consequently blocking our hope for financial innovation.
 
by Kristo Kaarman, TransferWise co-founder

[franky1]

the problem is with the banks is that they do not mind you passing money to other people in the UK such as local bitcoins or bitbargain.

what they dont like is seeing the good old UK pound sterling leaving the UK for a european/US bank (exchange).

as for the proposed UK exchange that max keiser is involved in. i will just reveal this....

Amir Taaki is also involved.......

im not personally judging amirs lifestyle choices.. but from a business prospective. the guy behind intersango which flopped, who was behind the bitcoin london conference which made alot of profit .. but is now living in abandoned offices... is not someone whom i would have alot of trust in.

but that being said he is a good coder

[kiko]

what they dont like is seeing the good old UK pound sterling leaving the UK for a european/US bank (exchange).

This is just silly. UK banks have a 100% monopoly on Sterling. Money never "leaves" the UK. If you want to take your money out of the country you first have to find someone to take it back in (so to speak). The banks couldn't care less either way. The only place Sterling can exist is in their database. Physical cash is negligible and in essentially fixed supply.

Banks care about not getting big fines from the presently all too eager regulators. That's about it.

[BillboTor]

It's a bloody joke. All it would do is push the prices much higher up on LocalBitcoins etc as a straight bank SEPA transfer costs too much!

[matthewh3]

I was trading OTC through my HSBC account until I had received a stolen payment through no fault of my own.  They very nearly shut my account and banned me from using my account for buying or selling bitcoin.  Plus they said they would be monitoring my account for signs of bitcoin trading and if they found any that they would shut my account down immediately. 

[kiko]

I was trading OTC through my HSBC account until I had received a stolen payment through no fault of my own.  They very nearly shut my account and banned me from using my account for buying or selling bitcoin.  Plus they said they would be monitoring my account for signs of bitcoin trading and if they found any that they would shut my account down immediately. 

This must be why Apple stock is getting hit so hard, the first thing criminals traditionally buy with a stolen id are iPhones. 

[Traktion]

I was trading OTC through my HSBC account until I had received a stolen payment through no fault of my own.  They very nearly shut my account and banned me from using my account for buying or selling bitcoin.  Plus they said they would be monitoring my account for signs of bitcoin trading and if they found any that they would shut my account down immediately. 

OTC? Cash, I assume?

[franky1]

lol HSBC i facepalm when i hear a customer is with them.

especially when their "faster payments" are a majority of the time only working during business hours. it maybe time for you to move banks.

[Stephen Gornick]

Now TransferWise have had the rug pulled from under them: Their bank has told them to stop transferring money to Bitcoin exchanges.

CurrencyFair is a suitable replacement for Transferwise for those in the UK (and other countries they support), correct?

[marcus_of_augustus]

The UK banking system is dying. Recently frequent service outages, nationalised Mega banks, actually had the first bank runs in the West for decades in UK. All the money printing, suspension of rule of law for banksters, now over-regulation of the customers not the bankers and you have a recipe for a complete lock-up.

I'm not sympathetic really, since it is the City of London that has housed and fostered the worst of the criminal, crooked, greedy, corrupt and incompetent banking practices that have been exported all over the West, Wall St. is branch of the City of London in many ways. Blowback is a bitch.

Physician heal thyself.

[Lethos]

Once things settle down and it's a bit more clear on how the UK (financial system) feels about Bitcoin (more positive) and I know I can stay within their rules, I'd love to operate an exchange, maybe even more than 1. My goal would not be the best, just to achieve something, few others have done, even if it was just having an exchange on this small island without being shutdown.

My first I'm sure would be hardest, It be an exclusive UK exchange, just GBP, UK account holders only (no international trade), very restrictive in that sense plus all the usual security of an exchange. I'm sure I'd have to add a lot of other rules to appease the regulators as well. But if it succeeds here, what I learn from it will make it easier going to other countries with another exchange.

However I'm not going to have my hand bitten of trying to do it while it's clear the regulators and the banks are on a rampage at the moment.
I'm sure later down the line I might see it as a missed my chance to do, but I'm risk adverse and have my primary business to worry about.

[matthewh3]

The UK banking system is dying. Recently frequent service outages, nationalised Mega banks, actually had the first bank runs in the West for decades in UK. All the money printing, suspension of rule of law for banksters, now over-regulation of the customers not the bankers and you have a recipe for a complete lock-up.

I'm not sympathetic really, since it is the City of London that has housed and fostered the worst of the criminal, crooked, greedy, corrupt and incompetent banking practices that have been exported all over the West, Wall St. is branch of the City of London in many ways. Blowback is a bitch.

Physician heal thyself.

Bank of Dave - http://www.burnleysavingsandloans.co.uk/about-us/

[franky1]

Once things settle down and it's a bit more clear on how the UK (financial system) feels about Bitcoin (more positive) and I know I can stay within their rules, I'd love to operate an exchange, maybe even more than 1. My goal would not be the best, just to achieve something, few others have done, even if it was just having an exchange on this small island without being shutdown.

My first I'm sure would be hardest, It be an exclusive UK exchange, just GBP, UK account holders only (no international trade), very restrictive in that sense plus all the usual security of an exchange. I'm sure I'd have to add a lot of other rules to appease the regulators as well. But if it succeeds here, what I learn from it will make it easier going to other countries with another exchange.

However I'm not going to have my hand bitten of trying to do it while it's clear the regulators and the banks are on a rampage at the moment.
I'm sure later down the line I might see it as a missed my chance to do, but I'm risk adverse and have my primary business to worry about.

regulators are not n the rampage. They are not proactive, they are reactive. its just a lack of due diligence on the part of some of these existent exchanges which when scammy customers try claiming they been robbed in the hopes for a free coin. banks then look into the intricate details. so its best to be open and honest, have a business plan set out exactly upfront that it is a bitcoin business where the terms and conditions are that once the payment is complete its irreversible. keep ip logs, bank account details emails or usernames of your customers (the automatic/voluntary information anyone can get their hands on) auto ban customers trying to use the service using tor/proxy so that any genuine fraud can be investigated without much dead ends. and keep to the value limits of under £850 per day £12500 per year for each customer. and you should be fine.

if people want to stay anonymous. stay with bitcoin. if they want FIAT. then anonymity has to end

[Chakraball]

The UK banking system is dying. Recently frequent service outages, nationalised Mega banks, actually had the first bank runs in the West for decades in UK. All the money printing, suspension of rule of law for banksters, now over-regulation of the customers not the bankers and you have a recipe for a complete lock-up.

I'm not sympathetic really, since it is the City of London that has housed and fostered the worst of the criminal, crooked, greedy, corrupt and incompetent banking practices that have been exported all over the West, Wall St. is branch of the City of London in many ways. Blowback is a bitch.

Physician heal thyself.

Bank of Dave - http://www.burnleysavingsandloans.co.uk/about-us/

I saw him on the CH 4 documentaries, he visited Germany where community banks are legal and very common, maybe that's why Germany is not in debt like the rest of the West.

[Lethos]

Once things settle down and it's a bit more clear on how the UK (financial system) feels about Bitcoin (more positive) and I know I can stay within their rules, I'd love to operate an exchange, maybe even more than 1. My goal would not be the best, just to achieve something, few others have done, even if it was just having an exchange on this small island without being shutdown.

My first I'm sure would be hardest, It be an exclusive UK exchange, just GBP, UK account holders only (no international trade), very restrictive in that sense plus all the usual security of an exchange. I'm sure I'd have to add a lot of other rules to appease the regulators as well. But if it succeeds here, what I learn from it will make it easier going to other countries with another exchange.

However I'm not going to have my hand bitten of trying to do it while it's clear the regulators and the banks are on a rampage at the moment.
I'm sure later down the line I might see it as a missed my chance to do, but I'm risk adverse and have my primary business to worry about.

regulators are not n the rampage. They are not proactive, they are reactive. its just a lack of due diligence on the part of some of these existent exchanges which when scammy customers try claiming they been robbed in the hopes for a free coin. banks then look into the intricate details. so its best to be open and honest, have a business plan set out exactly upfront that it is a bitcoin business where the terms and conditions are that once the payment is complete its irreversible. keep ip logs, bank account details emails or usernames of your customers (the automatic/voluntary information anyone can get their hands on) auto ban customers trying to use the service using tor/proxy so that any genuine fraud can be investigated without much dead ends. and keep to the value limits of under £850 per day £12500 per year for each customer. and you should be fine.

if people want to stay anonymous. stay with bitcoin. if they want FIAT. then anonymity has to end

Poor choice of words on my part I guess (They just harsher than most) and this does make me want to be cautious and give myself enough time to fully plan everything.
Also I'm going to need colo another server, wasn't planning to do another one till next year.
However I do know some exchanges in the uk at least made out they did the above (they could of lied) and still had problems with their banks.
But I agree with what you say, as it's good advice. Such restrictions do not bother me, as I was planning to be that tight on the limits.

[uMMcQxCWELNzkt]

I think the reality is the UK government are way to hung up on public image, they would rather spend years deciding on something and wasting millions in the process. I guess we will have to wait until new economies start to emerge using growing technologies and then we will have to catch up when it is politically(financially) approachable by the mainstream. How about we create our own Bitcoin political party for the UK lol?

[Traktion]

Now TransferWise have had the rug pulled from under them: Their bank has told them to stop transferring money to Bitcoin exchanges.

CurrencyFair is a suitable replacement for Transferwise for those in the UK (and other countries they support), correct?

My father has used them in the past for GBP/Euro transfers and rates them. I've signed up and will see how it goes.

I've used localbitcoins a few times too and that has always worked well. The prices tended to be higher and slower to move (down) than the exchanges though. Saying that, the prices are pretty close to MtGox atm.

[franky1]

regulations concerning alternative currencies whether foreign, virtual or crypto have not changed. intersango dropped GBP not due to bitcoin but due to banking issues unrelated.

blockchain.info i think dropped it 1 due to the price dump and secondly rumours are that because he advertised his "product" as advertising revenue, yet it was bitcoins. that got him into a bit of sticky water.

the main and genuine issues alot of people have seen are
1. exceeding limits.
2. moving exceeding limits abroad.

so a direct UK only pounds for bitcoins exchange would have less issues then a pound->transferwise->dollar->okpay->btc-e hop skip and jump where the "customer" involved gets lost within the many leaps.

i have done alot of the legal research and spoken to banks, HMRC and FSA and it is more straight forward then most armchair anarkists shout about.

only issue is i dont have the time or the resourses to put plans to action. so i just use my knowledge to help others develop bitcoin in the UK (a few secret projects coming up)

but i wont reveal them or get peoples hopes up just yet as i call that "doing a BFL"

but if you have any concerns about VAT etc (which is not a worry untill a single bitcoin reaches £6,000) or other tax, fsa stuff, message me and ill point you in the right direction, which saves reading through 20 pages of documents to find the single sentence of valuable information

[Lethos]

Thank you Franky, I'll send you a PM just so I don't forget.

[bitbadger]

No its just UK banks charge extortionate fees for international and even just EU intra-SEPA transfers for UK personal accounts.  You can tho use TransferWise to get money into Bitstamp or MtGox for just £1 but I'm not sure if it works the same for withdrawals.

My bank charges £25 per SEPA transfer, what a joke!

A bank transfer is just a few entries into a computer database front end.

In fact there's probably very little that even has to be entered by hand by the bank staff nowadays and most of what is entered is already done by the customer his or herself in the case of an online account. So a SEPA should only cost about 25p not  £25.

The bank cartel continue to con the public into thinking an international money transfer is some big deal that must be very expensive. It's just playing on people's assumptions and what they have become used to.

It was the same with international phone calls. People were taught to accept an international phone call is something expensive.

It took Skype to come along and change this. And likewise iTunes with record industry and their insane CD prices.

This is why we need transfer systems like Bitcoin to put an end to this nonsense.

The point people have made about how difficult it is to purchase or trade in Bitcoins in the UK is very true. The banks and government in the UK want to deny Bitcoin the chance to gain any footing in the country.

They want to keep Bitcoin out of the UK and keep it marginalised because it threatens:  

1) the banking system as it exists right now  and 2) the government's fiscal policy and autonomy with Sterling - UK of course doesnt have the Euro and wants to keep control over its own currency.

It's going to be one hard struggle against the City of London on this. Good luck to Max Keiser if he wants to open a bitcoin exchange based in the UK. Frankly I wouldnt even bother. It would be too risky with all the hostility and regulation. Host it somewhere else well out of the way of London.

[bitbadger]

How about we create our own Bitcoin political party for the UK lol?

What about the Pirate Party? Wouldn't Bitcoin be an ideal concept for them to promote? Or if not then maybe the Greens? Though they'd probably get all hung up about the electricity consumption of all the Bitcoin miners.

[AJS_]

Quite frankly the City are a set of contradictory ego based narcissist. This doesn't surprise me in any way.
Moving forward though, so what are the options of getting GBP into exchanges (Mt.Gox, Bitstamp particularly thanks to its SEPA) at present after this fiasco?