The UK Public & Bitcoin

[matthewh3]

I totally understand where you are coming from, UK is rip off when it comes to bitcoin. I have looked into all the methods posted here, as op stated Localbitcoins and Bitbargain seem rather expensive, one guy is advertising to buy at £40 on one site and is selling at £100 on the other. Extortionate UK bank charges for international transfers make the big exchanges nonviable for someone just wanting one or two coins to get into the system, BitcoinFridge seems to have died, I put in a buy request and have had no response and other methods take at least 48 hours, which is unrealistic when prices can move by as much as £20 in an hour.
There must be many more people like the op and myself here in UK who are frustrated at the situation here, especially when you consider that for example I bought a laptop battery from Hong Kong on ebay, paid by paypal and received it within 3 days and yes I understand the problems re paypal chargebacks.
It seems the rest of the world doesn't trust the British banking system, can't say I blame em with George Osborne in charge.

No its just UK banks charge extortionate fees for international and even just EU intra-SEPA transfers for UK personal accounts.  You can tho use TransferWise to get money into Bitstamp or MtGox for just £1 but I'm not sure if it works the same for withdrawals.

[DeeSome]

I totally understand where you are coming from, UK is rip off when it comes to bitcoin. I have looked into all the methods posted here, as op stated Localbitcoins and Bitbargain seem rather expensive, one guy is advertising to buy at £40 on one site and is selling at £100 on the other. Extortionate UK bank charges for international transfers make the big exchanges nonviable for someone just wanting one or two coins to get into the system, BitcoinFridge seems to have died, I put in a buy request and have had no response and other methods take at least 48 hours, which is unrealistic when prices can move by as much as £20 in an hour.
There must be many more people like the op and myself here in UK who are frustrated at the situation here, especially when you consider that for example I bought a laptop battery from Hong Kong on ebay, paid by paypal and received it within 3 days and yes I understand the problems re paypal chargebacks.
It seems the rest of the world doesn't trust the British banking system, can't say I blame em with George Osborne in charge.

No its just UK banks charge extortionate fees for international and even just EU intra-SEPA transfers for UK personal accounts.  You can tho use TransferWise to get money into Bitstamp or MtGox for just £1 but I'm not sure if it works the same for withdrawals.

I keep seeing people trying to push TransferWise but like I said before 48 hours is too long to make a translation with the current volatility of Bitcoin.
 
I don't have to go to the newsagents to buy meat tokens so I can then go to the butchers to buy some sausages so I don't want to be changing my currency through third party sites to make a purchase of Bitcoin.

[uMMcQxCWELNzkt]

I totally understand where you are coming from, UK is rip off when it comes to bitcoin. I have looked into all the methods posted here, as op stated Localbitcoins and Bitbargain seem rather expensive, one guy is advertising to buy at £40 on one site and is selling at £100 on the other. Extortionate UK bank charges for international transfers make the big exchanges nonviable for someone just wanting one or two coins to get into the system, BitcoinFridge seems to have died, I put in a buy request and have had no response and other methods take at least 48 hours, which is unrealistic when prices can move by as much as £20 in an hour.
There must be many more people like the op and myself here in UK who are frustrated at the situation here, especially when you consider that for example I bought a laptop battery from Hong Kong on ebay, paid by paypal and received it within 3 days and yes I understand the problems re paypal chargebacks.
It seems the rest of the world doesn't trust the British banking system, can't say I blame em with George Osborne in charge.

No its just UK banks charge extortionate fees for international and even just EU intra-SEPA transfers for UK personal accounts.  You can tho use TransferWise to get money into Bitstamp or MtGox for just £1 but I'm not sure if it works the same for withdrawals.

I keep seeing people trying to push TransferWise but like I said before 48 hours is too long to make a translation with the current volatility of Bitcoin.

To be honest I think the TransferWise pushing is partly due to the affiliate program lol. Regardless it is one of the very few options available s...o . It does kind of negate the whole instantly sending coins when it can take days just to get the BTC into an account. Whoever does find a way around this could dominate the UK market, I don't really believe the UK citizens trust their government. At least all the people I know hate every banker/politician and would rather those corrupt officials got sent to the highest volcano peak and asked politely to jump of the edge.

[matthewh3]

I totally understand where you are coming from, UK is rip off when it comes to bitcoin. I have looked into all the methods posted here, as op stated Localbitcoins and Bitbargain seem rather expensive, one guy is advertising to buy at £40 on one site and is selling at £100 on the other. Extortionate UK bank charges for international transfers make the big exchanges nonviable for someone just wanting one or two coins to get into the system, BitcoinFridge seems to have died, I put in a buy request and have had no response and other methods take at least 48 hours, which is unrealistic when prices can move by as much as £20 in an hour.
There must be many more people like the op and myself here in UK who are frustrated at the situation here, especially when you consider that for example I bought a laptop battery from Hong Kong on ebay, paid by paypal and received it within 3 days and yes I understand the problems re paypal chargebacks.
It seems the rest of the world doesn't trust the British banking system, can't say I blame em with George Osborne in charge.

No its just UK banks charge extortionate fees for international and even just EU intra-SEPA transfers for UK personal accounts.  You can tho use TransferWise to get money into Bitstamp or MtGox for just £1 but I'm not sure if it works the same for withdrawals.

I keep seeing people trying to push TransferWise but like I said before 48 hours is too long to make a translation with the current volatility of Bitcoin.

To be honest I think the TransferWise pushing is partly due to the affiliate program lol. Regardless it is one of the very few options available s...o . It does kind of negate the whole instantly sending coins when it can take days just to get the BTC into an account. Whoever does find a way around this could dominate the UK market, I don't really believe the UK citizens trust their government. At least all the people I know hate every banker/politician and would rather those corrupt officials got sent to the highest volcano peak and asked politely to jump of the edge.

There was only ever really one way to buy coins on an exchange quickly and that was at Intersango plus that only lasted for a few months the rapid deposits until they were shut down for banking reasons.  It's always taken days to get money into MtGox AFAIK especially from the UK.

EDIT:  They has always been a massive demand for bitcoins in the UK.  Before Intersango shut down and MtGox Barclay's stopped, GBP was the second most traded fiat pair with BTC after USD.  The problems in the UK are probably suppressing the average bitcoin price IMO.  If you could get GBP into an exchange with instant free UK bank transfers I think they'd be a much bigger buying demand for bitcoins.  If you could open an exchange like MtGox that accepted instant free GBP deposits (and withdrawals) you could corner at least 10% of exchange traded volume.  Or around at least >£30Million ($40Million, EUR35Million) a month in trade.  It's just the money laundering laws in the UK are so tight that HSBC has to go to Mexico to do it 

[solomon]

People are suggesting TW because it works. You can't have it both ways, you can have speed at a premium, or cheaper transactions that take longer.
Before about a month ago my transfers (Bank->TransferWise->Bitstamp) were taking around 18-36 hours. Recently it's taking much longer, around a week which i assume is the increased demand they've been having.

[botsofbitcoin]

I think with the TransferWise -> Bitstamp route it's actually Bitstamp (or at least their bank) that are the slow link. If you pay the £17 per £1000 to speed the transfer then that seems to go through from the TW end within a few hrs. Once it's gone it can take another 24 hrs to clear to Bitstamp. More at the weekend.

By the way, I'm only recommending this route to let people know that I'm doing my best to keep my margins down on Local Bitcoins if they need coins quickly. My affiliate link is only going to my friends.

[Lethos]

During my time buying/selling bitcoins as someone from the UK, I have found the trade between £ and Btc more expensive just because I have a Uk bank account, due not to the exchange itself, but the fees from what I can tell charged for the international transfer of funds to my account, due to the fact so few if any exchanges can establish a stable base here in the UK.
If Exchanges could have a banking base in the UK, their is no reason for high fees, like £30-50. I don't blame the exchanges for this problem, I'm aware out banking industry has made it anywhere from difficult to impossible for them.

The cost I told myself at the time was worth it, as I only did it as a for need basis. Giving more appropriate timing I might not needed to do them at all. I could of done without the 3-5% taken off it when I was trading in 4 figures worth.

There is methods of trade out there outside of the exchanges, but it certainly does not provide the same sort of stability in price or risk management. I do look forward to a UK based exchange their is enough trade to make it worth while.

I have tried more than a few exchanges, but even European based ones suffer the problem of transfer fees. Bitcoin Central was my most recent exchange I use, based in France it didn't seem to change the fact I still get hit with the same high fees of exchanges based outside of Europe.

[airsheep]

Supposing a UK based exchange did manage to satisfy the banks and regulatory agencies that it was in compliance with all the relevant legislation, would anyone actually use it?

The Money Laundering / Terrorism / Payment Services regulations would seem to suggest that a compliant UK exchange would look something like this ...

Registration would involve:
- Sending a certified copy of Passport / Driving Licence (that is, a copy signed by e.g. an accountant / notary / bank manager).
- And a certified copy of a recent bank statement (not an online one!).
- Entering your address history for the last three years.
- Consenting to a credit check / electoral roll search.
- Waiting for a secret code to arrive by post and entering that to verify current address.

There would be no ability to send or receive bitcoins other than to/from a single bitcoin address you control. Changing that bitcoin address would probably require a lengthy process involving sending documents by post.

Deposits and withdrawals would involve paying a 1% fee to cover bank charges (faster payments aren't free for businesses). They would only be possible to/from your verified bank account (which must be in your name).

Additional fees would probably have to be levied to cover the cost of regulatory compliance - say 0.5% on every trade.

Any transaction you make (deposit, withdrawal, trade) may be suspended for up to a week if it looks a bit unusual or suspicious - but the exchange wouldn't be able to tell you why they suspended it, since that would be a criminal offence ("Tipping Off").

Deposits and Withdrawals above £10K (or that add up to £10K per month, or that look "a bit funny") would probably require such extensive due diligence that even talking about the due diligence is illegal.

Sounds fun, eh? Any ideas for domain names - I notice www.painfulbitcoins.co.uk is free.

[btbrae]

Supposing a UK based exchange did manage to satisfy the banks and regulatory agencies that it was in compliance with all the relevant legislation, would anyone actually use it?

The Money Laundering / Terrorism / Payment Services regulations would seem to suggest that a compliant UK exchange would look something like this ...

Registration would involve:
- Sending a certified copy of Passport / Driving Licence (that is, a copy signed by e.g. an accountant / notary / bank manager).
- And a certified copy of a recent bank statement (not an online one!).
- Entering your address history for the last three years.
- Consenting to a credit check / electoral roll search.
- Waiting for a secret code to arrive by post and entering that to verify current address.

There would be no ability to send or receive bitcoins other than to/from a single bitcoin address you control. Changing that bitcoin address would probably require a lengthy process involving sending documents by post.

Deposits and withdrawals would involve paying a 1% fee to cover bank charges (faster payments aren't free for businesses). They would only be possible to/from your verified bank account (which must be in your name).

Additional fees would probably have to be levied to cover the cost of regulatory compliance - say 0.5% on every trade.

Any transaction you make (deposit, withdrawal, trade) may be suspended for up to a week if it looks a bit unusual or suspicious - but the exchange wouldn't be able to tell you why they suspended it, since that would be a criminal offence ("Tipping Off").

Deposits and Withdrawals above £10K (or that add up to £10K per month, or that look "a bit funny") would probably require such extensive due diligence that even talking about the due diligence is illegal.

Sounds fun, eh? Any ideas for domain names - I notice www.painfulbitcoins.co.uk is free.

Well when you put it like that...

[DeeSome]

To be honest I think the TransferWise pushing is partly due to the affiliate program lol. Regardless it is one of the very few options available s...o . It does kind of negate the whole instantly sending coins when it can take days just to get the BTC into an account. Whoever does find a way around this could dominate the UK market, I don't really believe the UK citizens trust their government. At least all the people I know hate every banker/politician and would rather those corrupt officials got sent to the highest volcano peak and asked politely to jump of the edge.

+100 

[Paul89273]

No its just UK banks charge extortionate fees for international and even just EU intra-SEPA transfers for UK personal accounts.  You can tho use TransferWise to get money into Bitstamp or MtGox for just £1 but I'm not sure if it works the same for withdrawals.

My bank charges £25 per SEPA transfer, what a joke!

[uMMcQxCWELNzkt]

Supposing a UK based exchange did manage to satisfy the banks and regulatory agencies that it was in compliance with all the relevant legislation, would anyone actually use it?

The Money Laundering / Terrorism / Payment Services regulations would seem to suggest that a compliant UK exchange would look something like this ...

Registration would involve:
- Sending a certified copy of Passport / Driving Licence (that is, a copy signed by e.g. an accountant / notary / bank manager).
- And a certified copy of a recent bank statement (not an online one!).
- Entering your address history for the last three years.
- Consenting to a credit check / electoral roll search.
- Waiting for a secret code to arrive by post and entering that to verify current address.

There would be no ability to send or receive bitcoins other than to/from a single bitcoin address you control. Changing that bitcoin address would probably require a lengthy process involving sending documents by post.

Deposits and withdrawals would involve paying a 1% fee to cover bank charges (faster payments aren't free for businesses). They would only be possible to/from your verified bank account (which must be in your name).

Additional fees would probably have to be levied to cover the cost of regulatory compliance - say 0.5% on every trade.

Any transaction you make (deposit, withdrawal, trade) may be suspended for up to a week if it looks a bit unusual or suspicious - but the exchange wouldn't be able to tell you why they suspended it, since that would be a criminal offence ("Tipping Off").

Deposits and Withdrawals above £10K (or that add up to £10K per month, or that look "a bit funny") would probably require such extensive due diligence that even talking about the due diligence is illegal.

Sounds fun, eh? Any ideas for domain names - I notice www.painfulbitcoins.co.uk is free.

Do those regulations apply to digital currency though? I mean, say for example I create a game and you can purchase digital items with Bitcoins, how can the government say no, no video game currency for you and what makes the currency any different legally speaking? I hope this does not come across as disagreeing, the more I think about it the more I start to think it is BS and the regulation is biased. What if, I created a game where you could store GBP in a virtual character and over an international server, that currency was converted to BTC, then instead of trading with BTC you could sell/buy the virtual characters. I guess that is the same concept as selling wallets but people sell video game characters all the time, perhaps this is a loophole?

Also www.painfulbitcoins.co.uk is dead, don't tell me the bankers got them too lol.

[nwbitcoin]

The big problem is that the cat is out of the bag for bitcoin.  The regulators know it exists, and are already putting things in place to stop it becoming an issue in the future.

I still think looking at the way telecom companies sell credits is a viable way to sell bitcoins, but because everyone knows bitcoins are a currency, its not going to take a genius to see that just calling them credits is going to have any effect.

Maybe the answer is to cut the cord between fiat and bitcoin in the UK?  Treat bitcoins as a poker chip which represents a real value, but in itself has no value.  We would possibly need a lawyer to work out the wording, but if we had an agreement that retailers could buy and sell with bitcoins as long as they redeemed them at a fixed price with an official of some sort, we could make the process of getting on board as a user much easier?

God, I hate the way paperwork is so overwhelming in the UK!!

[matthewh3]

No its just UK banks charge extortionate fees for international and even just EU intra-SEPA transfers for UK personal accounts.  You can tho use TransferWise to get money into Bitstamp or MtGox for just £1 but I'm not sure if it works the same for withdrawals.

My bank charges £25 per SEPA transfer, what a joke!

I know, the UK is part of the SEPA zone it should take a similar time and cost for a SEPA transaction in the UK as else where in the zone.  I know they have to convert GBP/EUR but that shouldn't be too expensive as all big money transfers is basically just binary and not the exchange of actual notes and coins.  The more stupid the banks are like that the bigger a benefit for bitcoins even if it makes it more expensive as a whole to buy bitcoins in the UK due to the costs of international arbitrage.

If you look back the 1980's there was a limit on the amount of money you could take on holiday out of the UK.  The current situation is probably in effect due to the legacy of that monetary policy.  Until a similar time you wasn't even allowed to buy physical bullion you needed a coin collectors license. 

[rizq]

Very funny and ironic, but i started selling on Bitbargain today and the markups are less than 10%.
One seller is selling for £64 as we speak the mtgox rate is £62.48.
I dont know if things are like this for today only, but as the sellers on both websites increase the competition is fierce. I am telling you its a bloodbath out there, i simply can't compete anymore. FYI i am selling at 6% mtgox rate.

Considering the fees involved with other methods, today the UK is king.

Check it out for yourself if you like.

One chap on localbitcoins is selling for £61.99

These dirt cheap prices in UK might be a sign that demand for bitcoin is dwindling.

Thought i would jump the bandwagon and share the spoils having seen the average markups of the past couple of weeks, seems like i am too late.

[oblongmeteor]

There are some things only Bitcoin can buy... Whatever your view on the wares they peddle, these businesses are pretty much the main and only real economic justification for Bitcoins - they force it to be used as a currency not hoarded as a commodity. If not for them Bitcoin would likely exist only as a curiosity. For those who are wondering which businesses I'm talking about specifically; Silk Road, Black Market Reloaded and all the other darknet enterprises that offer 'legally ambiguous' wares and services. (read: websites running on the Tor - https://www.torproject.org/ - network)

[SAQ]

Has anyone tried bitcoin.de? They say they accept moneybookers which is identical to paypal.

[greBit]

Supposing a UK based exchange did manage to satisfy the banks and regulatory agencies that it was in compliance with all the relevant legislation, would anyone actually use it?

The Money Laundering / Terrorism / Payment Services regulations would seem to suggest that a compliant UK exchange would look something like this ...

Registration would involve:
- Sending a certified copy of Passport / Driving Licence (that is, a copy signed by e.g. an accountant / notary / bank manager).
- And a certified copy of a recent bank statement (not an online one!).
- Entering your address history for the last three years.
- Consenting to a credit check / electoral roll search.
- Waiting for a secret code to arrive by post and entering that to verify current address.

There would be no ability to send or receive bitcoins other than to/from a single bitcoin address you control. Changing that bitcoin address would probably require a lengthy process involving sending documents by post.

Deposits and withdrawals would involve paying a 1% fee to cover bank charges (faster payments aren't free for businesses). They would only be possible to/from your verified bank account (which must be in your name).

Do you think registering for a UK compliant exchange would require significantly more effort than say getting a verified Paypal account? Though I suppose it may depend on the size of the funds the customers need to move around.

There are a fair few business bank accounts that offer free FPS transfers - Barclays for one.

I think its about time someone made the effort to start a legit exchange in the UK that complies with the regulations and doesn't get its accounts shut down!

[matthewh3]

Supposing a UK based exchange did manage to satisfy the banks and regulatory agencies that it was in compliance with all the relevant legislation, would anyone actually use it?

The Money Laundering / Terrorism / Payment Services regulations would seem to suggest that a compliant UK exchange would look something like this ...

Registration would involve:
- Sending a certified copy of Passport / Driving Licence (that is, a copy signed by e.g. an accountant / notary / bank manager).
- And a certified copy of a recent bank statement (not an online one!).
- Entering your address history for the last three years.
- Consenting to a credit check / electoral roll search.
- Waiting for a secret code to arrive by post and entering that to verify current address.

There would be no ability to send or receive bitcoins other than to/from a single bitcoin address you control. Changing that bitcoin address would probably require a lengthy process involving sending documents by post.

Deposits and withdrawals would involve paying a 1% fee to cover bank charges (faster payments aren't free for businesses). They would only be possible to/from your verified bank account (which must be in your name).

Do you think registering for a UK compliant exchange would require significantly more effort than say getting a verified Paypal account? Though I suppose it may depend on the size of the funds the customers need to move around.

There are a fair few business bank accounts that offer free FPS transfers - Barclays for one.

I think its about time someone made the effort to start a legit exchange in the UK that complies with the regulations and doesn't get its accounts shut down!

IIRC Max Kieser said he's trying to build a new London exchange.

[greBit]

Also, isn't BitStamp a UK limited company ...

Though I could not find mention of them on the HMRC/FSA registers to show that they are compliant with the AML stuff...