IadixDev
Full Member
Offline
Activity: 322
Merit: 151
They're tactical
|
|
February 21, 2017, 05:05:21 PM Last edit: February 21, 2017, 05:19:09 PM by IadixDev |
|
Common sense is 20% of bitcoin users :p it's always like this, 20% is still good It's why good dev must be like dark vador, pushing what is good for their user on them with an iron hand, otherwise they never understand anything. . It's end less debate, lack of consensus, and it never go anywhere
|
|
|
|
franky1
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 4340
Merit: 4693
|
|
February 21, 2017, 05:19:19 PM |
|
Maybe an indicator of the total estimated processing time for a block could be added in the block headers, and limiting the efffective processing time to this.
or advertising the number of sig op in the block more explicitly from start, and limiting the number of sigop processed to this,as mining nodes are already supposed to know this, if a way can be found not using too much extra bandwidth.
Maybe we could activate segwit, implement Schnorr sigs, stop worrying about O(n^2) attacks, and enjoy the other benefits like Lightning, tree multisignature, fungibility, etc. /common sense even activating segwit does not stop worrying about O(n^2) attacks!! people wanting to cause O(n^2) attacks will still do O(n^2) attacks wake up to reality. O(n^2) attacks are only allievated by those using segwit keys.. the thing you need to understand is attackers wont use those keys even after activation. so the problem is not solved. its like not wanting gun crimes. so you make a law that creates a new voluntary gun shop to open whichs sells plastic guns that fire paintballs. hoping everyone will buy these guns. the thing you need to understand is you have not closed the normal gun shops or put rules to force the normal gun shops to close. all segwit has done is effectively say the plastic paintball guns are x% cheaper to use..... thats it
|
I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER. Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
|
|
|
kiklo
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
|
|
February 22, 2017, 12:57:25 AM |
|
Maybe an indicator of the total estimated processing time for a block could be added in the block headers, and limiting the efffective processing time to this.
or advertising the number of sig op in the block more explicitly from start, and limiting the number of sigop processed to this,as mining nodes are already supposed to know this, if a way can be found not using too much extra bandwidth.
Maybe we could activate segwit, implement Schnorr sigs, stop worrying about O(n^2) attacks, and enjoy the other benefits like Lightning, tree multisignature, fungibility, etc. /common sense You keep missing the point where ~70% of the miners are refusing segwit. Segwit is dead in the water. Time to move on.
|
|
|
|
iCEBREAKER
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
|
|
February 22, 2017, 02:01:26 AM |
|
Maybe we could activate segwit, implement Schnorr sigs, stop worrying about O(n^2) attacks, and enjoy the other benefits like Lightning, tree multisignature, fungibility, etc.
/common sense
You keep missing the point where ~70% of the miners are refusing segwit. Segwit Centralized sha256 is dead in the water. Time to move on. Fixed your broken point to make it more reasonable and actionable.
|
██████████ ██████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████████████████ ████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ████████████████████████████████ ████████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████████ ████████████████████████████████ ██████████████ ██████████████ ████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████████ ██████████ Monero
|
| "The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." David Chaum 1996 "Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect." Adam Back 2014
|
| | |
|
|
|
kiklo
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
|
|
February 22, 2017, 02:52:24 AM |
|
Maybe we could activate segwit, implement Schnorr sigs, stop worrying about O(n^2) attacks, and enjoy the other benefits like Lightning, tree multisignature, fungibility, etc.
/common sense
You keep missing the point where ~70% of the miners are refusing segwit. Segwit Centralized sha256 is dead in the water. Time to move on. Fixed your broken point to make it more reasonable and actionable. LOL, the only thing broken is your reasoning skills. BU needs to happen soon, BTC is jammed up again : 88112 Unconfirmed Transactionshttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1799541.new#new
|
|
|
|
iCEBREAKER
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
|
|
February 22, 2017, 06:40:24 AM |
|
BU needs to happen soon, BTC is jammed up again : 88112 Unconfirmed Transactions
Bitcoin's market-based priority schema is working fine. In fact, it's working better than ever because now you can bump up a fee that's too low. If you don't want to do that, broadcast your cosmic background spam on a less valuable blockchain.
|
██████████ ██████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████████████████ ████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████ ████████████████████████████████ ████████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████████ ████████████████████████████████ ██████████████ ██████████████ ████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████████ ██████████ Monero
|
| "The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." David Chaum 1996 "Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect." Adam Back 2014
|
| | |
|
|
|
kiklo
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
|
|
February 22, 2017, 08:40:41 AM |
|
BU needs to happen soon, BTC is jammed up again : 88112 Unconfirmed Transactions
Bitcoin's market-based priority schema is working fine. In fact, it's working better than ever because now you can bump up a fee that's too low. If you don't want to do that, broadcast your cosmic background spam on a less valuable blockchain. Way ahead of you. Anytime BTC unconfirmed transactions are more 10,000 , I use LTC or Eth or Doge until it drops back down.
|
|
|
|
franky1
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 4340
Merit: 4693
|
|
February 22, 2017, 08:58:40 AM |
|
If you don't want to do that, broadcast your cosmic background spam on a less valuable blockchain.
let me guess your gonna kiss gmaxwells ass like last year and start advertising monero as the replacement for bitcoin. real funny thing about blockstream scripters complain that only the chinese are making bitcoins but reprogram the fee estimator to give miners more coin(pools dont care about the fee's. its a bonus, not needed income) pretend to complain about miner control but only give miners the vote (but fail because miners are more ethical and are willing to wait and see what nodes choose) pretend to care about the community but only implement code changes for benefit of commercial services(only benefits companies wishing to set themselves up as hubs) pretend to care about the community. yet stunt real growth of bitcoin and then have the arrogance to say bitcoin cant cope.
|
I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER. Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
|
|
|
C0RE
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 26
Merit: 0
|
|
February 22, 2017, 12:35:38 PM |
|
it seems like bitcoin is once again having a spam attack, unlimited is useless here or even harmful, be patient and wait for miners to signal segwit support
|
|
|
|
IadixDev
Full Member
Offline
Activity: 322
Merit: 151
They're tactical
|
|
February 22, 2017, 04:47:06 PM |
|
If you want to go with an unlimited dragster, at least make in sort it has some kind of brakes, otherwise there can be some accidents :p
|
|
|
|
Lauda
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
|
|
February 22, 2017, 05:21:30 PM |
|
even activating segwit does not stop worrying about O(n^2) attacks!! people wanting to cause O(n^2) attacks will still do O(n^2) attacks
wake up to reality. O(n^2) attacks are only allievated by those using segwit keys.. the thing you need to understand is attackers wont use those keys even after activation. so the problem is not solved.
You are thinking about this completely wrong. Let's revisit: We know that at 1 MB that quadratic hashing problem is *okay* (to put in this way) and that it opens a DOS attack vector at higher block sizes. I think we can agree on this statement. If people create Segwit TXs, they can create blocks that are bigger than 1 MB. However, in this case the O(n^2) is reduced to O(n) which levitates the problem. So what does happen if someone chooses to not use Segwit 'keys' and decides to create extremely expensive transactions? Nothing, they still can't create a TX/block that it significantly (or adequately) bigger in order for the 'attack' to work.
|
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks" 😼 Bitcoin Core ( onion)
|
|
|
sgbett
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
|
|
February 22, 2017, 05:30:23 PM |
|
even activating segwit does not stop worrying about O(n^2) attacks!! people wanting to cause O(n^2) attacks will still do O(n^2) attacks
wake up to reality. O(n^2) attacks are only allievated by those using segwit keys.. the thing you need to understand is attackers wont use those keys even after activation. so the problem is not solved.
You are thinking about this completely wrong. Let's revisit: We know that at 1 MB that quadratic hashing problem is *okay* (to put in this way) and that it opens a DOS attack vector at higher block sizes. I think we can agree on this statement. If people create Segwit TXs, they can create blocks that are bigger than 1 MB. However, in this case the O(n^2) is reduced to O(n) which levitates the problem. So what does happen if someone chooses to not use Segwit 'keys' and decides to create extremely expensive transactions? Nothing, they still can't create a TX/block that it significantly (or adequately) bigger in order for the 'attack' to work. Until core does that hard fork to increase 'blocksize' they said they were going to do
|
"A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution" - Satoshi Nakamoto*my posts are not investment advice*
|
|
|
franky1
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 4340
Merit: 4693
|
|
February 22, 2017, 07:49:46 PM Last edit: February 22, 2017, 08:18:47 PM by franky1 |
|
So what does happen if someone chooses to not use Segwit 'keys' and decides to create extremely expensive transactions? Nothing, they still can't create a TX/block that it significantly (or adequately) bigger in order for the 'attack' to work.
if an attacker makes a 1mb bloated non-segwit tx. then the block is filled. again.. the block is filled(repeated for emphasis) and no one else can get their transactions into the block. doesnt matter what size the block could have been or is.. its filled. end of thus even if you have X thousand users using segwit.. their transactions are still held up in mempools, unconfirmed. = segwit is not a remedy. its just taking the guns away from the innocent and dumbly thinking that will solve malicious gun crimes. yet malicious gun crimes are still happening because malicious people still have a gun to hold people up. segwit doesnt magically make the block 2mb.. its all dependant on what type of transactions are in a block that offsets posible expansion of block capacity of that specific block at that specific time. if all transactions are native block is at 1mb.. if 50% transactions are native that specific block might be 1.5mb if 0% transactions are native that specifit block might be 2.1mb but if a spammer fills a block with native transactions.. segwit users cant do crap
|
I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER. Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
|
|
|
Lauda
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
|
|
February 22, 2017, 08:17:20 PM |
|
So what does happen if someone chooses to not use Segwit 'keys' and decides to create extremely expensive transactions? Nothing, they still can't create a TX/block that it significantly (or adequately) bigger in order for the 'attack' to work.
if an attacker makes a 1mb bloated non-segwit tx. then the block is filled. again.. the block is filled and no one else can get their transactions into the block. doesnt matter what size the block could have been or is.. its filled. end of You are diverting attention to what I was taking about. Read your post, and read what I was talking about. I was not talking about throughput, but solely about quadratic hashing.
|
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks" 😼 Bitcoin Core ( onion)
|
|
|
-ck
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 4228
Merit: 1644
Ruu \o/
|
|
February 22, 2017, 08:26:23 PM Last edit: February 22, 2017, 10:16:03 PM by -ck |
|
Lauda your tolerance and persistence is commendable. However your effort is wasted. Selectively ignoring about 4 bitcointalk trolls in this argument will make your life much more enjoyable and any discussions regarding scaling much more useful as it increases the signal to noise ratio to about 100x higher. EDIT: Of course people who respond by taking offence means they know they're trolls themselves, otherwise why would they get offended and think I was talking about them?
|
Developer/maintainer for cgminer, ckpool/ckproxy, and the -ck kernel 2% Fee Solo mining at solo.ckpool.org -ck
|
|
|
franky1
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 4340
Merit: 4693
|
|
February 22, 2017, 08:30:45 PM Last edit: February 23, 2017, 01:40:50 PM by franky1 |
|
You are diverting attention to what I was taking about. Read your post, and read what I was talking about. I was not talking about throughput, but solely about quadratic hashing.
what your failing to understand is that segwit wont stop anything. you can pretend it solves things and is 100% utopian fix. but its not quadratic hashing still will occur after segwit is activated.
|
I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER. Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
|
|
|
franky1
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 4340
Merit: 4693
|
|
February 22, 2017, 08:32:48 PM |
|
Lauda your tolerance and persistence is commendable. However your effort is wasted. Selectively ignoring about 4 bitcointalk trolls in this argument will make your life much more enjoyable and any discussions regarding scaling much more useful as it increases the signal to noise ratio to about 100x higher.
sticking head in sand and pretending the dream is a reality will make your life more enjoyable.. but you have to wake up someday. and your dream fades away once the real reality takes over your life.
|
I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER. Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
|
|
|
hv_
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
|
|
February 23, 2017, 01:40:43 AM Last edit: February 23, 2017, 02:02:30 AM by hv_ |
|
Lauda your tolerance and persistence is commendable. However your effort is wasted. Selectively ignoring about 4 bitcointalk trolls in this argument will make your life much more enjoyable and any discussions regarding scaling much more useful as it increases the signal to noise ratio to about 100x higher.
sticking head in sand and pretending the dream is a reality will make your life more enjoyable.. but you have to wake up someday. and your dream fades away once the real reality takes over your life. You re so mean wiping away others Sweet Wishes Tomorrow I ll anounce a new coin called FeeAssCoin (FEASCO) using a new proof of mempool (POM) running by segregated users with limited brain.
|
Carpe diem - understand the White Paper and mine honest. Fix real world issues: Check out b-vote.com The simple way is the genius way - Satoshi's Rules: humana veris _
|
|
|
franky1
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 4340
Merit: 4693
|
|
February 23, 2017, 03:00:25 AM |
|
sticking head in sand and pretending the dream is a reality will make your life more enjoyable.. but you have to wake up someday. and your dream fades away once the real reality takes over your life.
You re so mean wiping away others Sweet Wishes im frank (meaning: get straight to the point) if i wanted to kiss ass and dream utopian dreams of over promises and sales pitches of features that dont do as intended, id call myself something else. if something has a problem you dont solve it by sticking head in the sand if something has a problem you dont pretend the devs are not to blame if something has a problem you dont continue to treat the devs as gods. as soon as people wake up and realise that, the sooner devs realise the community have been lied to and are actually not happy. and the devs hopefully change their ways. at the moment devs are soo busy trying to stroke their sheep to sleep that they are spending less time fixing problems and more time thinking there is not a problem and leaving them free to do what crap they like. everyone needs to realise that there should be no gods of bitcoin, devs come and go. kissing their ass wont help... it just makes them feel empowered to mess up and get away with it. the devs should be treated as employee's of bitcoin. not managers the nodes are what control bitcoin not the devs.
|
I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER. Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
|
|
|
artows21
|
|
February 23, 2017, 08:26:05 AM |
|
No I don't think BU is dead, this is not a war !!! BU is still go to bitcoins and people who wants still using BU can, it's like if you want to use an iPhone and others prefer using SAMSUNG.
|
|
|
|
|