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Author Topic: Litecoin segwit activation. What happened?  (Read 6644 times)
kiklo
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February 18, 2017, 04:07:20 AM
 #81

Kiklo, I'm not a segwit evangelist but I think you have to put it into context as a natural evolution of blickchain technology with specific focus on widespread global adoption. Segwit is not the holy grail, but it has its utility and LTC stepping up to the forefront is good for crypto. If this can't be seen then you're politically compromised. If your an opponent and it doesn't better serve crypto, then it will have empirically shown itself to not do so, and the next trial of technology will move forward. Also, the mining rewards will be relative. If BTC continues to grow, aside from  lock rewards, tx fees may go up an order of magnitude due to traffic and value against the USD, so I think the argument of miner fees being compromised is farfield.

Also, Charlie stated that segwit maybe activated regardless of 75% support, in any regard I've got 50LTC TO WAGER IF YOUR UP FOR IT.

Save your Wager and give it to the LTC miners you are putting out of business by pushing segwit.
They are going to need it.

Because you did not answer the question,
how are they going to make money when all of the transactions are on LN?


 Cool
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kiklo
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February 18, 2017, 04:16:15 AM
 #82

Question for LTC miners

If 75% of the LTC miners are dumb enough to activate segwit.

Once LN has Offchain LTC , that is faster & cheaper than your Onchain LTC,

Why would anyone ever bother to use your Onchain LTC?

I mention this , because when no one uses your Onchain LTC and the Block rewards are dimished, and LN is raking in all of the transaction fees,
How do you expect to make enough money to keep being an LTC miner?


The above questions is what all of these segwit fanatics completely ignore.

There is a reason segwit can't get higher than 30% on the BTC network,
their miners know LN is a hostile takeover of their coin , so they refuse segwit.

 Cool

As I explained above the concern about fees comes from the Lightning Network not Segwit. The LN can be activated without segwit so not sure why you think it's important to segwit signalling. Also your question why miners don't need to fear the LN was also answered. Please feel free to read and respond.

Maybe you can explain why you think the pennies LTC miners earn on fees should encourage them to abandon the potential to scale and the resulting increase in value if adoption occurs. You might also explain why if adoption fails the LN network is even a threat since all the providers will go bankrupt.

Whether you know it or not you stated an OUTRIGHT LIE.
This is a LIE =>LN can be activated without segwit

A LN that is TRUSTLESS, which is what they are Promising , CAN NOT BE ACTIVATED WITHOUT SEGWIT!!


https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5dt8tz/confused_is_segwit_needed_for_lightning_network/
Quote
However, without segwit or another malleability fix, LN channels have to deal with situations where transactions get mutated ("malleated"), which makes them get stuck at various steps.
Preventing them from getting stuck permanently requires either introducing trust (which we don't want to do) or setting some annoying timeouts that limit the efficiency of channels.

So if segwit fails to be activated which it will, and you use LN without segwit , their is a very real Chance your BTC gets Locked forever with no way to retrieve it.
That is funny.  Cheesy

Now we know why they are not running LN, it loses the BTC and makes it irretrievable.   Cheesy


 Cool

OBSERVE the THUNDER NETWORK (LN Clone) at least they ADMIT the TRUTH.

Thunder Network (At least they admit they need segwit.)  
https://blog.blockchain.com/2016/05/16/announcing-the-thunder-network-alpha-release/
Quote
Until both CSV and SegWit are implemented on the bitcoin blockchain, transactions are not enforceable at the bitcoin protocol level.
So, the current Thunder prototype is best suited for transactions among a trusted network of users.
Try this amongst your dev team or amongst your trusted internet friends, but don’t use it for real payments.
Remember: this is alpha testing software.
kiklo
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February 18, 2017, 04:33:57 AM
 #83

FYI:
Even after the LTC miners refuse to activate Segwit , it is not over, which shows Charlie has taken a payoff to shit the Litecoin miners.

http://www.newsbtc.com/2017/02/17/charlie-lee-potentially-enforcing-litecoin-segwit-activation-bitcoiners-concerned/

Quote
To make matters even worse, Charlie Lee mentioned how there as an alternative plan.
Even if there is no miner consensus, he can still force SegWit activation for litecoin.
Albeit Charlie Lee did not elaborate on this statement, it is a very worrisome thought.
No one knows for sure how a soft fork would be forced upon the community, though.
Then again, it is not something we should ever hope to experience either.
 

 Cool


FYI:
I guess Litecoin is going to have to be renamed CharlieCoin, if he pulls off a FORCED ACTIVATION!!

FYI2:  Charlie is planning to Change the Proof of Work and Kill all of your Scrypt Miners, and make you Change PoW Algorithms .
 Tongue
https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5uf679/charlie_lee_people_dont_realize_what_segwit_is/ddtrbxe/

Quote
If you are talking about changing the POW then I have to notice it is a risky, expensive and difficult-to-coordinate strategy that may not work.
For one, the hard fork could fail to gain consensus.
For another, even if the POW changes, large miners are arguably the best positioned people to quickly deploy hardware that executes the new POW
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February 18, 2017, 02:43:39 PM
 #84

Kiklo, I'm not a segwit evangelist but I think you have to put it into context as a natural evolution of blickchain technology with specific focus on widespread global adoption. Segwit is not the holy grail, but it has its utility and LTC stepping up to the forefront is good for crypto. If this can't be seen then you're politically compromised. If your an opponent and it doesn't better serve crypto, then it will have empirically shown itself to not do so, and the next trial of technology will move forward. Also, the mining rewards will be relative. If BTC continues to grow, aside from  lock rewards, tx fees may go up an order of magnitude due to traffic and value against the USD, so I think the argument of miner fees being compromised is farfield.

Also, Charlie stated that segwit maybe activated regardless of 75% support, in any regard I've got 50LTC TO WAGER IF YOUR UP FOR IT.

Save your Wager and give it to the LTC miners you are putting out of business by pushing segwit.
They are going to need it.

Because you did not answer the question,
how are they going to make money when all of the transactions are on LN?


 Cool

Why are you avoiding the bet? I thought you were so confident that Segwit won't be activated in Litecoin? Maybe you're just trolling because you have a lot of free time.

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February 18, 2017, 03:19:32 PM
 #85

without segwit and L.N. litecoin will slowly die anyway  Sad ...  it is not profitable to mine, However ! it does have a secure network and it is faster than btc ( along with many others )

the could be !  saviour ! ... segwit / L.N.

Keep btc politics out.......................Let Litecoin make its own choice and walk its own path... its evolution, its advancing crypto... lets see where it takes us   Huh

litecoin miners currently have nothing to lose ( price / ratio consistently dropping , block rewards halving, difficulty rising ) But these miners have lots to gain  Shocked

if it doesn't workout then at least its been tried, so miners move to a more profitable coin to mine .. as miners do !
the only loser if it works out is btc losing yet more market to an ALT ( or is this the problem )   Roll Eyes
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February 18, 2017, 03:55:03 PM
 #86

The litecoin community has said that it will be surely activated because they were so sure at that least 75% of the miners will cooperate. What happened?
IIRC Same thing happened to bitcoin before.

Bitcoin community was euphoric about SegWit and everyone thought that LN and SegWit will be reality withing a month after signalling will start.
I suspect that it is tht bad press and propaganda of bitcoin anti SegWit front ebbed away that initial enthusiasm of LTC community.
Well, I thought that LTC users form more unitary community, maybe I was wrong.
kiklo
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February 19, 2017, 01:07:32 AM
 #87

Kiklo, I'm not a segwit evangelist but I think you have to put it into context as a natural evolution of blickchain technology with specific focus on widespread global adoption. Segwit is not the holy grail, but it has its utility and LTC stepping up to the forefront is good for crypto. If this can't be seen then you're politically compromised. If your an opponent and it doesn't better serve crypto, then it will have empirically shown itself to not do so, and the next trial of technology will move forward. Also, the mining rewards will be relative. If BTC continues to grow, aside from  lock rewards, tx fees may go up an order of magnitude due to traffic and value against the USD, so I think the argument of miner fees being compromised is farfield.

Also, Charlie stated that segwit maybe activated regardless of 75% support, in any regard I've got 50LTC TO WAGER IF YOUR UP FOR IT.

Save your Wager and give it to the LTC miners you are putting out of business by pushing segwit.
They are going to need it.

Because you did not answer the question,
how are they going to make money when all of the transactions are on LN?


 Cool

Why are you avoiding the bet? I thought you were so confident that Segwit won't be activated in Litecoin? Maybe you're just trolling because you have a lot of free time.

Your pussy ass butt buddy, would not accept even 1 LTC bet.

Alright pussy boy ,

You want a bet , to hell with Crypto ,

Let's Bet 20 Million US $ , PM me your name & address & Contact Info and I will have my Attorney draw up the Papers.
And your ass had better be able to show the money shithead!

 Cool
kiklo
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February 19, 2017, 01:16:10 AM
 #88

without segwit and L.N. litecoin will slowly die anyway  Sad ...  it is not profitable to mine, However ! it does have a secure network and it is faster than btc ( along with many others )

the could be !  saviour ! ... segwit / L.N.

Keep btc politics out.......................Let Litecoin make its own choice and walk its own path... its evolution, its advancing crypto... lets see where it takes us   Huh

litecoin miners currently have nothing to lose ( price / ratio consistently dropping , block rewards halving, difficulty rising ) But these miners have lots to gain  Shocked

if it doesn't workout then at least its been tried, so miners move to a more profitable coin to mine .. as miners do !
the only loser if it works out is btc losing yet more market to an ALT ( or is this the problem )   Roll Eyes

Groestlcoin has already activated Segwit , where is LN supporting them,
LN is not connecting with Groestlcoin, because all they really care about is BTC.


 Cool
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February 19, 2017, 02:06:19 PM
 #89

I was very sure that segwit and LN was great for LTC before reading all of this.

However now...

More worrying is how could one person (even the the father of LTC) force changes through? seems impossible?
 
Even if he owns millions and millions of them this is not a pos coin so that will not help him would it?

Could he be considering POS to mitigate the issue kiklo mentions with no fees to keep LTC going after pow rewards run out?


Who here can speculate how this can even be done without miners going for it?

How can anything be altered at all without consensus approval through upgrading to the new wallets?

Why does he want algo change after all the investment in scrypt asics?

I like LTC and this is interesting times. I only hope LTC is not going to get destroyed over this.


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peekabootoo
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February 19, 2017, 03:25:33 PM
 #90

without segwit and L.N. litecoin will slowly die anyway  Sad ...  it is not profitable to mine, However ! it does have a secure network and it is faster than btc ( along with many others )

the could be !  saviour ! ... segwit / L.N.

Keep btc politics out.......................Let Litecoin make its own choice and walk its own path... its evolution, its advancing crypto... lets see where it takes us   Huh

litecoin miners currently have nothing to lose ( price / ratio consistently dropping , block rewards halving, difficulty rising ) But these miners have lots to gain  Shocked

if it doesn't workout then at least its been tried, so miners move to a more profitable coin to mine .. as miners do !
the only loser if it works out is btc losing yet more market to an ALT ( or is this the problem )   Roll Eyes

Groestlcoin has already activated Segwit , where is LN supporting them,
LN is not connecting with Groestlcoin, because all they really care about is BTC.


 Cool

what is groestlcoin.. never heard of it and i would think many others haven't either.. however litecoin is pretty well known and used

but you did make one thing very clear to me
.......................................

all they really care about is btc             litecoin is not btc...    keep btc politics out

and another link you posted up.. with concerns..

 ( http://www.newsbtc.com/2017/02/17/charlie-lee-potentially-enforcing-litecoin-segwit-activation-bitcoiners-concerned/ )

whether charlie wants the best for ltc or has sold out .. it should be activated and seen, as its only some of the btc brigade and their influence on pools that wants it stopped.. so all they care about is btc which must mean its bad for them.

so it must be good for us the litecoin miners

litecoin ,segwit activation....    bitcoiners concerned..........  again litecoin is not bitcoin.. keep the bitcoin politics out ( are bitcoiners worried that it might work or does work, if it works its bad for btc, yet another nail ,  its not being accepted on bitcoin network so should not concern them....   and if it doesn't work then fine its of no loss to the btc crowd, having been tried and tested the litecoin miners proudly move to a profitable coin to mine, because we all know its not profitable to mine ltc. ( unless you have free electricity  ).. so its not about the money for most ltc miners, its about evolution and freedom

anything thing that maybe good ( increased user base, increased investments, market price, speed, etc )   for another coin / network is bad for btc ( btc loses market share ) ( btc bleeds ) and as you have clearly pointed out... its all about btc..

again you make your point/view very clear... its about bitcoins and nothing else..

let litecoin do its own thing, walk its own path.. let litecoin be free from btc politics, let litecoin activate segwit, lets see how it works out.... its litecoins freedom of choice...   or are btc controllers really that worried.



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February 19, 2017, 05:09:35 PM
 #91

Are you a miner or operate a large scale mining pool? Why do you care so much? Also, Low Transaction fees is a fundamental goal crypto-currency, are you for higher transaction fees?

And I did answer question, I stated that your immediate concern of your primary argument is far-field and should carry no bearing to the immediate integration of segwit. Maybe a decade downstream or more when block rewards are 1.5265BTC / 3.125 LTC, there's a discussion, but segwit will have served its purpose (whether it succeeds or not) and there will be another evolutionary blockchain element that will fulfill shortcomings at that time.

If you don’t believe, why are you here? BTCEQTBTC BTCAluna.SocialBTC BTCEquitrader NewsBTC
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February 19, 2017, 11:13:02 PM
 #92

Are you a miner or operate a large scale mining pool? Why do you care so much? Also, Low Transaction fees is a fundamental goal crypto-currency, are you for higher transaction fees?

And I did answer question, I stated that your immediate concern of your primary argument is far-field and should carry no bearing to the immediate integration of segwit. Maybe a decade downstream or more when block rewards are 1.5265BTC / 3.125 LTC, there's a discussion, but segwit will have served its purpose (whether it succeeds or not) and there will be another evolutionary blockchain element that will fulfill shortcomings at that time.


Why do you want segwit & LN activated , where it can put the miners out of work and give control of the coin completely to LN.
I am against LN completely controlling a coin with an offchain fractional reserves style system, if I wanted fraud banking like the current system, I would have stayed out of crypto.

Segwit will fail and the miners will keep their jobs and we keep those asshole bankers out of crypto.

Observe  Smiley
Segwit miner support (percentage of segwit blocks signaling within the current activation period)   261 (18.91%)

Litecoin miner are changing their vote , & voting against segwit
Segwit miner support within the last 24 hours (last 576 blocks)   97 (16.84%)


 Cool
NattyLiteCoin
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February 19, 2017, 11:20:05 PM
 #93

It didn't even take a 10 second relationship with google to quell your fear of fractional reserve and the LN.

Quote from: theymos
It's not possible with Lightning. For each satoshi on the Lightning network, at least one satoshi on the Bitcoin network is tied up and unspendable. Some other hypothetical off-chain systems could allow for fractional reserve. A sidechain could be fractional-reserve in the sense that there are more "bitcoins" on the sidechain than can actually be transferred back to Bitcoin proper, though typically this will mean that the sidechain's security has somehow failed.

If you don’t believe, why are you here? BTCEQTBTC BTCAluna.SocialBTC BTCEquitrader NewsBTC
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February 19, 2017, 11:24:16 PM
 #94

Groestlcoin has already activated Segwit , where is LN supporting them,
LN is not connecting with Groestlcoin, because all they really care about is BTC.


 Cool

what is groestlcoin.. never heard of it and i would think many others haven't either..


LN could work with them , since they foolishly activated segwit.
Then after LN destroys them you would all know the truth.  Wink

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/groestlcoin/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=525926.0

http://www.groestlcoin.org/

http://www.groestlcoin.org/forum/

 Cool
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February 19, 2017, 11:39:16 PM
 #95

It didn't even take a 10 second relationship with google to quell your fear of fractional reserve and the LN.

Quote from: theymos
It's not possible with Lightning. For each satoshi on the Lightning network, at least one satoshi on the Bitcoin network is tied up and unspendable. Some other hypothetical off-chain systems could allow for fractional reserve. A sidechain could be fractional-reserve in the sense that there are more "bitcoins" on the sidechain than can actually be transferred back to Bitcoin proper, though typically this will mean that the sidechain's security has somehow failed.

I see the problem , you lack the ability to think for yourself and need Google.
Kind of proves
Pro Segit Supporters (No Brain whatsoever)


Theymos admits that other side chains can allow fractional reserves,
LN is only 1 software update from also allowing fractional reserves for the LN designers.
LN is a side chain , so think about it.


How do you Counterfeit LTC on LN.

Option 1 :
Form a group of collusion between the Miners that control 51%,
Send 5000 LTC to an address. Now follow the steps on LN to Lock up that 5000 LTC on the Blockchain.
Whether LN requires 1 or 6 confirmations , as soon as LN confirms the representation of LN notes match your amount.
You and your colluding friends, rewrite the blockchain and include a transaction moving that 5000 LTC to another address before the lock took place.
You now still have your 5000 LTC Free & Clear Onchain, and a representation value of 5000 LTC Offchain on LN .(Which you can use for LN transactions forever.)

LTC Onchain Transactions ended Counterfeiting , LN Offchain Transactions will bring Counterfeiting into Crypto.   Tongue

Study History, this is exactly how banking was started
LN is offchain , meaning it can never actually be a LTC, when can only truly exist ONCHAIN.

LN NOTES are only a Representation of the value of a LTC Nothing Else.

Quote from: kiklo
LN freezes the amount of LTC on the LTC onchain network,
what is transferred on LN is a representation of that value.
(No Different than when Banks allowed people to trade cash for gold.
The Gold is held somewhere else and the Cash is a representation of that amount of Gold.
Only redeemable upon request.)

IE: Banking (there is no difference between it & LN)

And here is the kicker, if LN is only a representation of a LTC, it is only a matter of time before a fractional LTC onchain is represented by more offchain on LN.
This becomes possible once LN can calculate how many people never remove their Locks on the LTC frozen on the LTC onchain network.
Study the history of Banking , this is exactly how they started.  Wink
 
http://economics.stackexchange.com/questions/6970/when-was-fractional-reserve-banking-introduced
Quote
In the past, savers looking to keep their coins and valuables in safekeeping depositories deposited gold and silver at goldsmiths, receiving in exchange a note for their deposit (see Bank of Amsterdam). These notes gained acceptance as a medium of exchange for commercial transactions and thus became an early form of circulating paper money. As the notes were used directly in trade, the goldsmiths observed that people would not usually redeem all their notes at the same time, and they saw the opportunity to invest their coin reserves in interest-bearing loans and bills. This generated income for the goldsmiths but left them with more notes on issue than reserves with which to pay them. A process was started that altered the role of the goldsmiths from passive guardians of bullion, charging fees for safe storage, to interest-paying and interest-earning banks. Thus fractional-reserve banking was born.
LN          = Goldsmiths, (which became Banks)
LN Coins =  Notes
LTC        =  Gold

Class Dismissed!    Wink

 Cool


How to Steal LN Funds from the LN WhitePaper itself.

Quote
https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf
Page 49 thru 51  Wink

Quote
Improper Timelocks
Participants must choose timelocks with sucient amounts of time.  If insuf-
 cient time is given, it is possible that timelocked transactions believed to
be invalid will become valid, enabling coin theft by the counterparty.  There
is a trade-o  between longer timelocks and the time-value of money.  When
writing wallet and Lightning Network application software, it is necessary
to ensure that sucient time is given and users are able to have their trans-
actions enter into the blockchain when interacting with non-cooperative or
malicious channel counterparties


Quote
9.2    Forced Expiration Spam
Forced expiration of many transactions may be the greatest systemic risk
when using the Lightning Network.  If a malicious participant creates many
channels and forces them all to expire at once, these may overwhelm block
data capacity, forcing expiration and broadcast to the blockchain.  The re-
sult  would  be  mass  spam  on  the  bitcoin  network.   The  spam  may  delay
transactions to the point where other locktimed transactions become valid

Quote
9.3    Coin Theft via Cracking
As parties must be online and using private keys to sign, there is a possibility
that, if the computer where the private keys are stored is compromised, coins
will  be  stolen  by  the  attacker.   While  there  may  be  methods  to  mitigate
the threat for the sender and the receiver, the intermediary nodes must be
online and will likely be processing the transaction automatically. For this
reason,  the  intermediary  nodes  will  be  at  risk  and  should  not  be  holding
a  substantial  amount  of  money  in  this  \hot  wallet."
  Intermediary  nodes
which have better security will likely be able to out-compete others in the
long run  and  be able to  conduct greater transaction volume due to  lower
fees.  Historically, one of the largest component of fees and interest in the
 nancial system are from various forms of counterparty risk { in Bitcoin it
is possible that the largest component in fees will be derived from security
risk premiums.
A Funding Transaction may have multiple outputs with multiple Com-
mitment Transactions, with the Funding Transaction key and some Commit-
ment Transactions keys stored oine.  It is possible to create an equivalent
of a \Checking Account" and \Savings Account" by moving funds between
outputs  from  a  Funding  Transaction,  with  the  \Savings  Account"  stored
oine and requiring additional signatures from security services.


FYI:
Since you have chosen Theymos for your authority figure.
Do you agree with his idea of adding PoS to Bitcoin?   Cheesy
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1654457
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February 19, 2017, 11:56:25 PM
 #96

You should pray for the LN to be implemented so you can exploit it and be rich.

Bitcoin is not PoS, nor should it ever be.




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kiklo
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February 20, 2017, 02:04:04 AM
 #97

You should pray for the LN to be implemented so you can exploit it and be rich.

LN will only make the Bankers that collect all of the Fees Rich.
No one else will profit enough to matter.

Bitcoin is not PoS, nor should it ever be.

Cool , you can think for yourself.  Smiley

You decided you did not agree with everything Theymos said.
How can you fault me for not agreeing with the Pro segwitters.  Wink

Especially if you can use Logic, everything I am saying rings truthful.

 Cool
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February 20, 2017, 04:32:46 AM
 #98

I don't know shit about theymos other than he's polarizing and has a shit ton of Bitcoin. I do know a little about Charlie Lee, enough to know his dedication to satoshi's vision. So while there may be theoretical shortcomings of blockchain solutions that may materialize by latent bad actors, it will still be an important step to a more robust system.

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INRI666
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February 20, 2017, 10:07:12 AM
 #99

What is Satoshi's vision and how does that align with Charlie Lee's vision? What I know is Satoshi is for onchain transactions not something like what Charlie wants to do with Litecoin. Charlie Lee wants a payment layer on top of Litecoin. If he was developing that for Bitcoin, Satoshi will have none of it.

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February 24, 2017, 04:36:14 PM
 #100

To all BU shills, for the last time, there'll be a balance with LN and litecoin transaction fees there.  Wake up.
If the litecoin fees are too low, it likely won't make sense to keep large LN channels open as that also means there's very little to be gained from routing fees. You do need a secure computer online to route LN payments through your channels, even if keeping the channels open doesn't require an online computer all the time.
When litecoin fees are high, there's a large incentive to optimize your channels and make sure they're open and active (that is routing payments) so that you can profit from offering people cheaper payments than litecoin itself. This means more and more people will pay through LN and transaction pressure on litecoin blocks will drop, causing the fee to drop too.
Between these two, there'll be a point of balance that'll be the actual fee level in litecoin. This is the natural market balance that will form.
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