The 'Voluntarism can't provide Essential Services' Argument

[billyjoeallen]

"The LAW is the final arbiter of disputes.

The state enforces contracts based on what the LAW.

The JUDICIAL SYSTEM interprets the LAW and how it applies to contracts.

Yea, I'm cool with that.  The contracts applies to everyone, government included."

The LAW as interpreted by the judiciary
The judicial system is an arm of the State, isn't it?

The Law as selectively enforced by the State

Your "education" was largely supplied by the State.
You have serious Stockholm Syndrome.

The LAW once said it was perfectly legal to own people. was that right? of course not. It's hilarious that Statists seem to think that the "LAW" is somehow a magical permission slip to do immoral things on one hand while banning consensual behavior on the other.  

[Anonymous]

How many times do we have to tell you, Big Powerful Corporations derive their power from governments. You aren't going to get rid of people who like big tools. You can only eliminate the tools or give them to everyone.

[kylesaisgone]

"Both parties are bound; it's called the law, it applies to everyone, government included."

when I steal it's theft. When government steals, it's taxation

when I kidnap, it's a felony. When the State kidnaps, it's an arrest

when I force people to work for me, it's slavery. When the State does it, it's the Draft, selective service, conscription, whatever.

The state doesn't obey the same rules at all. it breaks the rules and gives it's violations different names.

hahhahaha

Taxation isn't stealing, it's written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Arrests are kidnapping, their parameters are written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Selective service is written into the law and military members are paid, therefore it is part of the contract and not slavery.


YOU defined those things on your own terms.  The terms of the contract define them as such.

It's really cute how you completely ignore the fact that the relationship between the State and it's citizen is totally unilateral. Troll elsewhere.

What's cuter is that you ignore the fact that people have a hand in government (that's what a democracy is), so they if they care enough they can tailor the contract any way they see fit.  If they're unable to do that, they can GTFO at any time.

What's the cutest is that you sit here and bemoan the evil government all day, while enjoying all its benefits.

'Democracy', lol. Let me know when you finish your high school civics class.

Keeping with the consistency of statism, you're right, I enjoy the 'benefits' of Government, like out of control cops, horribly maintained roads/infrastructure, and I'm given no other choices, because these services are forced on me, at gunpoint. Since you hate corporations so much, why are you so willing to type on a computer manufactured with parts made by evil corporations, using software developed by mega-corporations like Microsoft, and sending your posts out through internet owned and operated by a private corporation? Because you do these things, that means you can't hate corporations, because you use their products!

Nice argument, bro. How's High School treating you?

No one is forcing shit on you.  You're free to move away at any time.  The US installed governments of most third-world slums hold dear the very same priciples that you do.  So when are you leaving?  I'll even come help you pack.

On the other hand, since there isn't a large corporation on earth that isn't exploiting someone, somewhere, I don't have any options.  However, I at least try to educate the ignorant, big business worshiping folk like yourself so that hopefully, someday, enough people will get off their asses that we can get things under control.

Stan Marsh, that u bro?

Considering every square inch of land, air, and water is claimed by some form of Government or another, no, I'm not 'free' to leave. When you say I'm 'free' to leave, what you're saying is, I have no choice. The hilarious thing about this circle you're creating out of your specious argumentation, is that you so eloquently are proving my point for me. Governments provide me with no choice. If I'm being oppressed, my only option is to move to a maybe less oppressive Government a thousand miles away, however, there's no promise that 50 years later they won't plunge into the depths of some nationalistic urge and decide to execute me for looking different than they do. We can look to the countless examples of this happening during history.

I won't get ahead of your state-mandated curricula, it would be quite devastating to learn that the world isn't as rosy and as peachy as your civics and history teachers make it out to be. I'm still laughing from the whole democracy bit, christ was that a knee-slapper.

[kylesaisgone]

The face of Democracy.

Let's ask this guy what he thinks about 'democracy'.

http://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/last-statement-sent-to-sentinel-from-self-immolation-victim/article_cd181c8e-983b-11e0-a559-001cc4c03286.html

[billyjoeallen]

"Both parties are bound; it's called the law, it applies to everyone, government included."

when I steal it's theft. When government steals, it's taxation

when I kidnap, it's a felony. When the State kidnaps, it's an arrest

when I force people to work for me, it's slavery. When the State does it, it's the Draft, selective service, conscription, whatever.

The state doesn't obey the same rules at all. it breaks the rules and gives it's violations different names.

hahhahaha

Taxation isn't stealing, it's written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Arrests are kidnapping, their parameters are written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Selective service is written into the law and military members are paid, therefore it is part of the contract and not slavery.


YOU defined those things on your own terms.  The terms of the contract define them as such.

It's really cute how you completely ignore the fact that the relationship between the State and it's citizen is totally unilateral. Troll elsewhere.

What's cuter is that you ignore the fact that people have a hand in government (that's what a democracy is), so they if they care enough they can tailor the contract any way they see fit.  If they're unable to do that, they can GTFO at any time.

What's the cutest is that you sit here and bemoan the evil government all day, while enjoying all its benefits.

'Democracy', lol. Let me know when you finish your high school civics class.

Keeping with the consistency of statism, you're right, I enjoy the 'benefits' of Government, like out of control cops, horribly maintained roads/infrastructure, and I'm given no other choices, because these services are forced on me, at gunpoint. Since you hate corporations so much, why are you so willing to type on a computer manufactured with parts made by evil corporations, using software developed by mega-corporations like Microsoft, and sending your posts out through internet owned and operated by a private corporation? Because you do these things, that means you can't hate corporations, because you use their products!

Nice argument, bro. How's High School treating you?

No one is forcing shit on you.  You're free to move away at any time.  The US installed governments of most third-world slums hold dear the very same priciples that you do.  So when are you leaving?  I'll even come help you pack.

On the other hand, since there isn't a large corporation on earth that isn't exploiting someone, somewhere, I don't have any options.  However, I at least try to educate the ignorant, big business worshiping folk like yourself so that hopefully, someday, enough people will get off their asses that we can get things under control.

The government is big business. The government is a corporation. the State is a monopoly. What's more, it's a force multiplier for all the other corporations you hate. Why is that so hard for you to see?

This is my country and I'm not going anywhere. Our own Declaration if Independence recognizes our right to "alter or abolish" the government if it fails to secure our natural rights, the rights that pre-date and supersede the State. If you and Uncle Sam can't handle that, then you are of course welcome to GTFO.

[3phase]

A bit late to the discussion, but I would like to add:

I do NOT want or need "essential services" like:

1. A public school that teaches crap to my children, which crap I then have to make them "unlearn", forces me to pay for it through taxes, and makes it ILLEGAL for me to take up the natural parent responsibility of teaching my own children.
2. A healthcare service system that will stack me along with another 1000 people in a dirty hospital when I am in need of it, and makes it ILLEGAL for me to even work for someone unless I pay my fat contribution to it every month (20% of usable salary). If I want decent healthcare I have to pay extra fro a private plan.
3. A pension system that has no way of being solvent in 20 or even 10 years, which means I will get close to nothing eventually, and also makes it ILLEGAL for me to work for anyone unless I pay some more fat contribution to it every month (another 20% of usable salary). Same thing goes for any decent retirement expectation, I have to pay extra for a private plan.
4. A law enforcement system which does not give me the right to fire a shotgun in the air when someone is breaking into my house (imposing a fine TO ME in the best case, and imprisonment FOR ME if one pellet touches the burglar), which I am also forced to pay through taxes, and essentially makes it ILLEGAL for me to have the right to protect myself and my family.

Apart from the illegality, I cannot personally afford to pay extra for these things (a private school, private police, etc) because the money I can produce (almost 70% of it, in direct or indirect taxation and "contribution") is being thrown down the bottomless pit of the providers of these "essential services".

And by saying I don't "need" these services, I just mean that I believe I am in a more knowledgeable position to take care of these things for myself, if only they would let me.

Can someone please stop the government from offering me these "Essentials"? I don't want them.

I don't believe in revolutions anymore, so my only hope is that this whole system will implode to its extinction, as seems to be gradually happening.

And no, I'm not in the US, so I don't know how this applies to that country.

[AyeYo]

The LAW once said it was perfectly legal to own people. was that right? of course not. It's hilarious that Statists seem to think that the "LAW" is somehow a magical permission slip to do immoral things on one hand while banning consensual behavior on the other.  

But yet you'll cite the constitution like it's the world of god.  Make up your mind.  You're talking about how unjust the law is in one breath and citing the Declaration of Independence in the next.  You cannot have your cake and eat it too, but yet that's why libertarianism is trying to do.

OMG big bad government is out to get me and I want it gone... but then you take the snipets of that big bad government that suit you and use them as points in your argument.  It doesn't work like that.




Society created the state.  Society created the law.  Society lives by the law interpreted by the state it created.  What part of that are you having a difficult time understanding?

[AyeYo]

A bit late to the discussion, but I would like to add:

I do NOT want or need "essential services" like:

1. A public school that teaches crap to my children, which crap I then have to make them "unlearn", forces me to pay for it through taxes, and makes it ILLEGAL for me to take up the natural parent responsibility of teaching my own children.
2. A healthcare service system that will stack me along with another 1000 people in a dirty hospital when I am in need of it, and makes it ILLEGAL for me to even work for someone unless I pay my fat contribution to it every month (20% of usable salary). If I want decent healthcare I have to pay extra fro a private plan.
3. A pension system that has no way of being solvent in 20 or even 10 years, which means I will get close to nothing eventually, and also makes it ILLEGAL for me to work for anyone unless I pay some more fat contribution to it every month (another 20% of usable salary). Same thing goes for any decent retirement expectation, I have to pay extra for a private plan.
4. A law enforcement system which does not give me the right to fire a shotgun in the air when someone is breaking into my house (imposing a fine TO ME in the best case, and imprisonment FOR ME if one pellet touches the burglar), which I am also forced to pay through taxes, and essentially makes it ILLEGAL for me to have the right to protect myself and my family.

Apart from the illegality, I cannot personally afford to pay extra for these things (a private school, private police, etc) because the money I can produce (almost 70% of it, in direct or indirect taxation and "contribution") is being thrown down the bottomless pit of the providers of these "essential services".

And by saying I don't "need" these services, I just mean that I believe I am in a more knowledgeable position to take care of these things for myself, if only they would let me.

Can someone please stop the government from offering me these "Essentials"? I don't want them.

I don't believe in revolutions anymore, so my only hope is that this whole system will implode to its extinction, as seems to be gradually happening.

And no, I'm not in the US, so I don't know how this applies to that country.

But you benefit from those services whether you think you want them or not, so your society will continue to force you to pay for them, because your ignorance of their benefits to you does not preclude you from benefiting.

See how simple that is?


The day you (and the rest of the libertarians) realize that you are NOT islands unto yourselves, no matter how hard you try, the world will suddenly start making more sense.

[3phase]

But you benefit from those services whether you think you want them or not, so your society will continue to force you to pay for them, because your ignorance of their benefits to you does not preclude you from benefiting.

See how simple that is?


The day you (and the rest of the libertarians) realize that you are NOT islands unto yourselves, no matter how hard you try, the world will suddenly start making more sense.

I thought I made i point that I am NOT BENEFITTING in any way, neither do my fellow citizens. In fact, my own life and my fellow citizens' life is made worse by the day because of these. If I told you that I am from Greece, would it make any more sense?

I mentioned in my post that it might be different in your country. I pointed out what type of services I DO NOT want. I understand it is not obvious to the reader that I am not proposing a complete banishment of these. I wouldn't have any objections if the services were better, or at least closer to my personal standards. Maybe in your country they are, in which case, I would consider you a lucky person.

I don't know what a "Libertarian" is and what classifies me as one (I don't seem to understand the term). I'm just laying plain facts and common sense.

And I do at least believe that all these needed services would be much better off in the hands of local government instead of central govenrment (better, fairer, and by god - cheaper).

In any case Ayeyo, thank you for making me think again about what I wrote before.

[AyeYo]

But you benefit from those services whether you think you want them or not, so your society will continue to force you to pay for them, because your ignorance of their benefits to you does not preclude you from benefiting.

See how simple that is?


The day you (and the rest of the libertarians) realize that you are NOT islands unto yourselves, no matter how hard you try, the world will suddenly start making more sense.

I thought I made i point that I am NOT BENEFITTING in any way, neither do my fellow citizens. In fact, my own life and my fellow citizens' life is made worse by the day because of these. If I told you that I am from Greece, would it make any more sense?

I mentioned in my post that it might be different in your country. I pointed out what type of services I DO NOT want. I understand it is not obvious to the reader that I am not proposing a complete banishment of these. I wouldn't have any objections if the services were better, or at least closer to my personal standards. Maybe in your country they are, in which case, I would consider you a lucky person.

I don't know what a "Libertarian" is and what classifies me as one (I don't seem to understand the term). I'm just laying plain facts and common sense.

And I do at least believe that all these needed services would be much better off in the hands of local government instead of central govenrment (better, fairer, and by god - cheaper).

In any case Ayeyo, thank you for making me think again about what I wrote before.

The fact that you're from Greece and you're mad makes more sense.  I understand what you're saying.  Really, it's not the social services that you're railing against, it's the waste and inefficiency with which they're executed - on this we agree.


However, to say you aren't benefiting is foolish.  Would you want to be surrounded by a nation of uneduated people, impoverished old beggers, and have law enforcement personnel to control crime?  Of course not.  Your government has obviously been foolish and wasteful with its implementation of these programs, but the issue is the waste, not the programs themselves.  Crying out that you want to abolish the programs because they're poorly managed is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[billyjoeallen]

The LAW once said it was perfectly legal to own people. was that right? of course not. It's hilarious that Statists seem to think that the "LAW" is somehow a magical permission slip to do immoral things on one hand while banning consensual behavior on the other.  

But yet you'll cite the constitution like it's the world of god.  Make up your mind.  You're talking about how unjust the law is in one breath and citing the Declaration of Independence in the next.  You cannot have your cake and eat it too, but yet that's why libertarianism is trying to do.

It pains me to have to explain this, so I'll use small words, Genius: The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are separate documents. I haven't cited the Constitution, nor will I except to point out its flaws. It's your beloved "social contract" and it's worthless- a promise by the powers that be not to mistreat us unless they really really want to. It's selectively enforced and arbitrarily interpreted to mean anything they want it to mean.

[3phase]

The fact that you're from Greece and you're mad makes more sense.  I understand what you're saying.  Really, it's not the social services that you're railing against, it's the waste and inefficiency with which they're executed - on this we agree.


However, to say you aren't benefiting is foolish.  Would you want to be surrounded by a nation of uneduated people, impoverished old beggers, and have law enforcement personnel to control crime?  Of course not.  Your government has obviously been foolish and wasteful with its implementation of these programs, but the issue is the waste, not the programs themselves.  Crying out that you want to abolish the programs because they're poorly managed is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Add to it the fact that in my life I have never seen efficiency in these areas. Maybe you're right, but nothing seems to work here for the last 30 years or so, I can't talk about earlier as I was too young.

And about the "living-in-fear" nation : I'm afraid what you're describing is coming anyway, pretty soon, at least in my greater neighborhood.

All the best.  

[AyeYo]

The LAW once said it was perfectly legal to own people. was that right? of course not. It's hilarious that Statists seem to think that the "LAW" is somehow a magical permission slip to do immoral things on one hand while banning consensual behavior on the other.  

But yet you'll cite the constitution like it's the world of god.  Make up your mind.  You're talking about how unjust the law is in one breath and citing the Declaration of Independence in the next.  You cannot have your cake and eat it too, but yet that's why libertarianism is trying to do.

It pains me to have to explain this, so I'll use small words, Genius: The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are separate documents. I haven't cited the Constitution, nor will I except to point out its flaws. It's your beloved "social contract" and it's worthless- a promise by the powers that be not to mistreat us unless they really really want to. It's selectively enforced and arbitrarily interpreted to mean anything they want it to mean.

And what's the Declaration of Independence?  A holy document penned by god himself?  It was a document written to establish a new state and approved/signed off on by the US congress of the time, and you're the resident state-hater... but you'll quote it because it happens to fit your worldview.  You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

[AyeYo]

The fact that you're from Greece and you're mad makes more sense.  I understand what you're saying.  Really, it's not the social services that you're railing against, it's the waste and inefficiency with which they're executed - on this we agree.


However, to say you aren't benefiting is foolish.  Would you want to be surrounded by a nation of uneduated people, impoverished old beggers, and have law enforcement personnel to control crime?  Of course not.  Your government has obviously been foolish and wasteful with its implementation of these programs, but the issue is the waste, not the programs themselves.  Crying out that you want to abolish the programs because they're poorly managed is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Add to it the fact that in my life I have never seen efficiency in these areas. Maybe you're right, but nothing seems to work here for the last 30 years or so, I can't talk about earlier as I was too young.

And about the "living-in-fear" nation : I'm afraid what you're describing is coming anyway, pretty soon, at least in my greater neighborhood.

All the best.  

All the best to you as well.  What happens in Greece will certainly affect us all.  That type of waste and inefficiency is the perfect example of why democracies need educated, actively participating citizens in order to function.  If you don't like something, you can change it.  Unfortunately, people are too busy with their daily trivial activities to be concerned with the functioning of the government... until everything is collasping around them and now suddenly they're ready to take action.

[billyjoeallen]

And what's the Declaration of Independence?  A holy document penned by god himself?  It was a document written to establish a new state and approved/signed off on by the US congress of the time, and you're the resident state-hater... but you'll quote it because it happens to fit your worldview.  You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

I am merely providing evidence that the State doesn't live up to it's own justification for existence. The government claims that it exists to secure natural rights and that it derives it's just powers from the consent of the governed. This obviously means that it has no such justification if it fails to secure those rights or if it doesn't enjoy the consent of the governed. It wasn't written by God. It was written by Statists who unintentionally provided us with the reasoning to oppose them.

Society created the State and the Market.  Neither can be restrained effectively, but the State will eventually kill itself.  

[AyeYo]

And what's the Declaration of Independence?  A holy document penned by god himself?  It was a document written to establish a new state and approved/signed off on by the US congress of the time, and you're the resident state-hater... but you'll quote it because it happens to fit your worldview.  You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

I am merely providing evidence that the State doesn't live up to it's own justification for existence. .  

No, what you're doing is arbitrarilly using a document created by the state to justify actions against the state because you don't like other state created documents.

I guess the irony of that escapes you.


You prefaced that by saying this is "your country", a statement for which you have no proof or legal backing... aside from the state created document that says you have a right to live here if you abide by the rest of the state created documents which outline the obligations of the state and obligations of its citizens... and we've come full circle.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

[myrkul]

No, what you're doing is arbitrarilly using a document created by the state to justify actions against the state because you don't like other state created documents.

Ever actually read the declaration?

It wasn't created by 'the state', it was written by a bunch of traitors to the crown.

[billyjoeallen]

And what's the Declaration of Independence?  A holy document penned by god himself?  It was a document written to establish a new state and approved/signed off on by the US congress of the time, and you're the resident state-hater... but you'll quote it because it happens to fit your worldview.  You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

I am merely providing evidence that the State doesn't live up to it's own justification for existence. .  

No, what you're doing is arbitrarilly using a document created by the state to justify actions against the state because you don't like other state created documents.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

You most certainly can have your cake and eat it too. As it happens, A am doing exactly that right now. (Chocolate peanutbutter!mmmm.) What you are trying to say is that you can't eat your cake and have it too, Brainiac.

There is nothing arbitrary about me using a State document to justify actions against the State. You seem to think  it's a one way street. Whether I like other state documents is irrelevant. It's obvious that the Constitution effectively does little if anything to restrain the growth, size and scope of the federal government. The American republic was a noble experiment that failed. Limited government was not achieved.

[billyjoeallen]

 I accept the rationale of the Founders for their rebellion against the State. I apply that same rationale for my oposition to the State they created. 

I am a citizen as Webster defines it:

1
: an inhabitant of a city or town; especially : one entitled to the rights and privileges of a freeman

I don't have to prove my citizenship. The burden of proof is on those who claim otherwise.

Do you even know what the term "Rule of Law" means?

from Wikipedia:
The rule of law is a legal maxim that provides that no person is above the law, that no one can be punished by the state except for a breach of the law, and that no one can be convicted of breaching the law except in the manner set forth by the law itself. The rule of law stands in contrast to the idea that the leader is above the law, a feature of Roman law, Nazi law, and certain other legal systems.

An agent of the state can't break the law in order to enforce it. An agent of the State whether king or cop can't steal any more than I can as a private citizen.  This is true, even if he calls the theft "taxation."

I think I ate too much cake.

[AyeYo]

There is nothing arbitrary about me using a State document to justify actions against the State.

...if you live in illogical land, which you obviously do, being a libertarian and all.


It's like saying Christianity is wrong and then quoting the Bible to prove your point.