Segwit on Bitcoin has Failed , BTC Core has Lost , The Miners have Won

[Paashaas]

That is an illusion. Chinese miners (besides BTCC) haven't invested any resources in the general development of bitcoin. I highly doubt that this will change. Who is going to take over? BU only has a handful of programmers that support it. Most supporters are reddit users, Chinese miners and investors.

The majority of the whole Bitcoin ecosystem inc. dev and programmers wants Segwit, for obvious reasons. They all dont give a shit about Core's behaviour. Those BU programmers + supporters are not going to make it with only more nodes and bigger blocks  . Segwit is technical better that outweight BU by far.

[jbreher]

with current settings about consensus, SegWit has (unfortunately?) no chance to come to life.
I feel like the devs should have somehow enforced this

Perhaps Blockstream never wanted SegWit adoption. That 95% activation level seems to have been designed to fail from the get-go.

Why would they spend all that money and time on this, if they intended this to fail?  

I dunno. If I had my tinfoil hat on, I might speculate 'fiat bux from AXA' - but I have no idea.

The funny thing is that the people that brought us (entirely predictable) state of affairs are the very ones who present themselves as the masters of not only sw implementation, but also of economics and of game theory.   I guess that's both funny(sick) and funny(haha).

No. If you don't like what some miners are doing, don't relay their new blocks. It's up to you, not the developers!

Indeed. The only proper response is to implement, signal, and argue for your optimal solution.

i still think that the current 1MB can keep it up until $10k per coin

If your only driving concern is the dollar price, then your position (seemingly 1MB4EVA) might be reasonable. Personally, I rather value the antifragility enabled by the next wave adoption (and the next, and the next, and ...). And we can't make any progress on that front when we are hard-limited to ~250,000 transactions per day.

So only the miners and the nodes have the power to do anything.
And the rest, the ones paying for the service, (me included) can just go to h***, right?
No. There has to be another way.

I sympathize a little with your outrage. However, I don't believe that there is another way. Your options -- from the sidelines -- are few.

- Sell all your BTC and leave it all behind, thereby unnoticeably reducing the price (such would be a lever for large groups, but inconsequential for individuals)

- Buck up buttercup and fire up a node. Joining the network makes your voice heard. Any given node still has essentially zero real power, but at least you can signal your preferences.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I think that's about all your options.

Also miners will never adopt any blocksize increase because the fuckers want fees as high as possible to make more money so stop thinking it's segwit what the don't want, they dont want any increase of blocksize.

Looks like we are stuck with 1mb for life, so lets hope for LN.

Let us conveniently ignore the fact that a year ago, the preponderance of miners indicated that they would implement a simple maxblocksize increase to 8MB. Of course Core Knew Better, and gave them 'what they needed' (::ahem::!), not what they wanted.

[kiklo]

Miners only receive transaction fees for the individual blocks they include transactions in.

Right. So Off-Chain Transaktions, selling Casascius Coins and other transactions outside of the blocks will not steal transaction fees from miners!

OK, you're just stupid.

Unlimited transactions could occur OFFCHAIN,
that amount of transactions will be stolen from the miners as a whole, decreasing the total amount of transactions from them to choose from ONCHAIN,  Dufus.

 


FYI:
The Goal of LN is that all transactions be performed offchain (like Banks), where they can control the money supply , Dufus.

[mezzomix]

Miners only receive transaction fees for the individual blocks they include transactions in.

Right. So Off-Chain Transaktions, selling Casascius Coins and other transactions outside of the blocks will not steal transaction fees from miners!

OK, you're just stupid.

Unlimited transactions could occur OFFCHAIN,
that amount of transactions will be stolen from the miners as a whole, decreasing the total amount of transactions from them to choose from ONCHAIN,  Dufus.

I would like to see Off-Chain and Sub-Chain solutions. This is much better than the current centralization with 5-10 miners. Competition is a good thing.

BTW competition is not stealing!

[hv_]

Miners only receive transaction fees for the individual blocks they include transactions in.

Right. So Off-Chain Transaktions, selling Casascius Coins and other transactions outside of the blocks will not steal transaction fees from miners!

OK, you're just stupid.

Unlimited transactions could occur OFFCHAIN,
that amount of transactions will be stolen from the miners as a whole, decreasing the total amount of transactions from them to choose from ONCHAIN,  Dufus.

I would like to see Off-Chain and Sub-Chain solutions. This is much better than the current centralization with 5-10 miners. Competition is a good thing.

BTW competition is not stealing!

I'm fully with you - the only issue is:

How to get the miners to allow competition against themselves. Most of them might see this behind SW. The bounty = 'keep 1MB limit' they don't want to swallow....

And this bounty now have led that even critical voices in bitcoin (Tone Vays,..) have swallowed the fee pill, and preach 'we need fees' , but if you do the math correctly - we do not need (those high) fees for many years!

-> SW an BS roadmap is flawed and unveiled by many critical brains. Rest of (no BS-) core might see this already ?

[kiklo]

I would like to see Off-Chain and Sub-Chain solutions. This is much better than the current centralization with 5-10 miners. Competition is a good thing.

BTW competition is not stealing!

When you compete with someone else , you are not locking that other person in place where they can not compete with you.

LN Locks BTC in Place ONCHAIN, once locked there can be no future transactions fees for the miners on that amount of BTC until LN releases the lock.
However LN can makes an infinite amount of transaction fees OFFCHAIN on that locked amount, while for the miners it is frozen.

Stealing is an accurate description of what LN will do to the miners.
They are stealing the ability of the miners to make transaction fees from the Locked BTC.

To get a Competition you need Litecoin or another Altcoins, because at no time , does one directly block the other from receiving transaction fees.
(They are competing against each other.)

 

[mezzomix]

Miners only receive transaction fees for the individual blocks they include transactions in.

Right. So Off-Chain Transaktions, selling Casascius Coins and other transactions outside of the blocks will not steal transaction fees from miners!

OK, you're just stupid.

Unlimited transactions could occur OFFCHAIN,
that amount of transactions will be stolen from the miners as a whole, decreasing the total amount of transactions from them to choose from ONCHAIN,  Dufus.

I would like to see Off-Chain and Sub-Chain solutions. This is much better than the current centralization with 5-10 miners. Competition is a good thing.

BTW competition is not stealing!

I'm fully with you - the only issue is:

How to get the miners to allow competition against themselves. Most of them might see this behind SW. The bounty = 'keep 1MB limit' they don't want to swallow....

Not all of the miners are blocking changes. If most of the nodes accept a change these nodes can ignore new blocks that do not flag support for the change. This way the nodes can create economic pressure to miners blocking changes.

[kiklo]

Not all of the miners are blocking changes. If most of the nodes accept a change these nodes can ignore new blocks that do not flag support for the change. This way the nodes can create economic pressure to miners blocking changes.

LOL,

The miners that are refusing to let LN steal from them are ~70% of all of the miners.
All the 30% can do , is what you are doing , whining about it.

You really want BTC changed and LN activated, spend a few Billion Dollars on Warehouses loaded with ASICS, until you get over 51%,
then BTC Corrupt Core can hardfork anytime they like, until that day however you are a passenger, not a driver.


 

[hv_]

Miners only receive transaction fees for the individual blocks they include transactions in.

Right. So Off-Chain Transaktions, selling Casascius Coins and other transactions outside of the blocks will not steal transaction fees from miners!

OK, you're just stupid.

Unlimited transactions could occur OFFCHAIN,
that amount of transactions will be stolen from the miners as a whole, decreasing the total amount of transactions from them to choose from ONCHAIN,  Dufus.

I would like to see Off-Chain and Sub-Chain solutions. This is much better than the current centralization with 5-10 miners. Competition is a good thing.

BTW competition is not stealing!

I'm fully with you - the only issue is:

How to get the miners to allow competition against themselves. Most of them might see this behind SW. The bounty = 'keep 1MB limit' they don't want to swallow....

Not all of the miners are blocking changes. If most of the nodes accept a change these nodes can ignore new blocks that do not flag support for the change. This way the nodes can create economic pressure to miners blocking changes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but for big mining companies running enough nodes to ensure their interests is a fraction of their entire investment. So I expect miners overrule existing node count if sth is against their interests.

[mezzomix]

I would like to see Off-Chain and Sub-Chain solutions. This is much better than the current centralization with 5-10 miners. Competition is a good thing.

BTW competition is not stealing!

When you compete with someone else , you are not locking that other person in place where they can not compete with you.

LN Locks BTC in Place ONCHAIN, once locked there can be no future transactions fees for the miners on that amount of BTC until LN releases the lock.
However LN can makes an infinite amount of transaction fees OFFCHAIN on that locked amount, while for the miners it is frozen.

Why do you always talk about LN?! I wrote Off-Chain and Sub-Chain in general!

Off-Chain and Sub-Chain transactions need the blockchain anyway. There is no law that a crypto transaction might not be made without a miner taxing this transaction!

You seem to think that the Bitcoin communitys only purpose is to support the miners. That is wrong - the miners job is to support Bitcoin!

[mezzomix]

Not all of the miners are blocking changes. If most of the nodes accept a change these nodes can ignore new blocks that do not flag support for the change. This way the nodes can create economic pressure to miners blocking changes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but for big mining companies running enough nodes to ensure their interests is a fraction of their entire investment. So I expect miners overrule existing node count if sth is against their interests.

The node count doesn't matter in this case. If a miner runs thousands of nodes he can relay his own block within his node pool but he cannot force any other node to relay/accept this block.

[kiklo]

I would like to see Off-Chain and Sub-Chain solutions. This is much better than the current centralization with 5-10 miners. Competition is a good thing.

BTW competition is not stealing!

When you compete with someone else , you are not locking that other person in place where they can not compete with you.

LN Locks BTC in Place ONCHAIN, once locked there can be no future transactions fees for the miners on that amount of BTC until LN releases the lock.
However LN can makes an infinite amount of transaction fees OFFCHAIN on that locked amount, while for the miners it is frozen.

Why do you always talk about LN?! I wrote Off-Chain and Sub-Chain in general!

Off-Chain and Sub-Chain transactions need the blockchain anyway. There is no law that a crypto transaction might not be made without a miner taxing this transaction!

You seem to think that the Bitcoin communitys only purpose is to support the miners. That is wrong - the miners job is to support Bitcoin!

This again is where you are confused who your daddy is?

BTC is a worthless piece of nothingness , unless their are Miners to move the BTC around and include transactions.

So hate to break it to you , In a PoW coin the Miners are your Daddy.
You want freedom, you either have to be a PoW miner or a PoS Staker, just buying a coin gives you ZERO control over it, you are completely dependent on the miners or stakers.  

 

[mezzomix]

You are wrong. The miners are not overlords, they are partners. If they foul, the community can ignore the blocks of the bad guys.

[kiklo]

You are wrong. The miners are not overlords, they are partners. If they foul, the community can ignore the blocks of the bad guys.

Confusion is really your state of being.

Really last time, I checked Partners shared the profit,
I don't know about you but no miner has send me my share of BTC profit.

Example you want segwit & LN and all of the Fractional reserve banking it will bring,
But the miners are refusing to implement it , and what can you do about it, not anything at all. 

 

[Viscount]

So hate to break it to you , In a PoW coin the Miners are your Daddy.

funny thing is In POS big coin holders are your Daddy.  

[steelhouse]

"The miners have Won".  Since anyone in the public can be a miner, the phase changes to "The public has won".

Gavin Andressen once compared bitcoin to stone money of Yap.   In New York City using construction union wages, what would be the cost of transporting one stone of yap currency to Japan?  $100 $5000?   Say it is $5000, then how much is a stone worth $500,000.  That is what is going to happen to bitcoin.

USD = medium of exchange
capital = and object made of matter used to make more wealth
wealth = objects of value

In a couple years when ssd's become supercheap block size will increase, however 100-1000 years of low cost storage must be assured before this happens.

[kiklo]

So hate to break it to you , In a PoW coin the Miners are your Daddy.

funny thing is In POS big coin holders are your Daddy.  

If you don't have enough to stake, then they would be your daddy.
But if you have enough coins to stake even once when you need it, You are one of the Elite. Because you can guarantee your transaction is entered.  
And it is a alot easier to stake than become a BTC PoW miner.

 

FYI:
Little side note for you ,
PoS stakers add transactions in the order they were created, they don't charge fees to let someone else jump in front of them.  
They may still be your Daddy if you don't Stake, but unlike BTC, they don't play favorites, they love all of you rugrats exactly the same.  

FYI2:
Add fairness to BTC with PoS , is one thing Theymos was trying to do in the following topic.
Idea for an altcoin: 3-way hybrid PoW
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1654457

[kiklo]

"The miners have Won".  Since anyone in the public can be a miner, the phase changes to "The public has won".

Hmm, Nope

Can you be a cloud miner, sure but Cloud miners always lose more than they make, they would have been better off just to buy BTC than trying to mine it.

The real question, is can Anyone be a Profitable Miner, for that you need a few million dollars of capital to invest.
Most people can not afford the start up cost, so sorry anyone can't be a BTC miner (it is a myth that has been dead for years.) 

 

[hv_]

"The miners have Won".  Since anyone in the public can be a miner, the phase changes to "The public has won".

Hmm, Nope

Can you be a cloud miner, sure but Cloud miners always lose more than they make, they would have been better off just to buy BTC than trying to mine it.

The real question, is can Anyone be a Profitable Miner, for that you need a few million dollars of capital to invest.
Most people can not afford the start up cost, so sorry anyone can't be a BTC miner (it is a myth that has been dead for years.) 

 

And that's what I try to say: If you have done this kind of investment, you might have just enough capital to set up a vast majority of nodes i.o. to over-rule non-miner interests entirely.

[GameunitsSEO]

I think bitcoin need a update because the transaction per second maybe more people care about it.