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Author Topic: Don't trust ripple! It's a get rich quick scheme for the creators.  (Read 6380 times)
misterbigg
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April 18, 2013, 06:11:38 PM
 #21

Please explain to me how it's more difficult for an open source project to provide patches and updates than a closed source one.  Linux, for example, is much more frequently updated than Mac OS X or Windows, yet Linux is open source and Mac OS X and Windows are closed source.

If you are running an older version of Linux, it doesn't affect my version.

But with peer to peer software, since all nodes communicate with each other if there's a change in the wire protocol or a change in the behavior of a message, everyone needs to upgrade. In Ripple, people who don't upgrade would have to be manually removed from the trusted nodes list, and their connections dropped. This would disrupt the network overlay and could make it difficult for the web based client to find nodes.

Quote
There is no real reason to keep it closed source at this point except for worries of forks.  Well guess what?  FORKS ARE GOOD FOR THE PROTOCOL!  They're good for the community, they're good for everyone EXCEPT OpenCoin, Inc.  Competition is healthy, and the fact that OpenCoin, Inc wants to hinder it until they're guaranteed to make a ton of money just shows how little they care about the protocol and how much they care about money.

Looking over the wiki (at https://ripple.com/wiki/Main_Page), you would have a difficult time convincing me that OpenCoin cares little about the protocol. In fact, Ripple is more well documented has a more well defined specification than Bitcoin! Are you aware that the OpenCoin developers write the specs in the wiki first before committing to adding the code? Here's an example: https://ripple.com/wiki/Services_API#Federation_protocol
misterbigg
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April 18, 2013, 06:14:10 PM
 #22

Then why have XRP at all?  Oh yeah, to prevent spam.  But to prevent spam it must have value.  So then if XRP has value, XRP is like a currency, plain and simple.

No one is disputing that but at this point you're restating things that have already been said. By me, in fact.

Here's the link to my original post:

Ripple: Disproportionate enrichment of the founders of the system?

And I'll repeat the text since you can't be bothered to click the link:

_______________________________________________________________________________ _____

Note: The following analysis assumes that the Ripple system eventually becomes open sourced, gets decentralized, and that rigorous mathematical analysis proves that the system is robust and fulfills its technical promises.

From the Ripple wiki

Quote
XRP are the only currency in the Ripple network that has no counter-party risk and can be sent to any account without a trust relationship.

When the Ripple network was created, 100 billion XRP was created. The founders gave 80 billion XRP to the OpenCoin Inc. OpenCoin Inc. will develop the Ripple software, promote the Ripple payment system, give away XRP, and sell XRP.

Let's review some facts:

* XRP is a cryptocurrency implemented in the Ripple system
* Only 100 billion XRPs can ever exist
* XRP must be expended and destroyed to perform transactions
* An XRP balance is required to fund an account
* It is claimed that the purpose of XRP is to prevent spam

There has been a fair amount of discussion about methods of XRP distribution for preventing spam. For example, to automatically fill each newly created account with some nominal amount of XRP. It should be obvious why such a scheme cannot work to prevent spam; all a spammer need do is repeatedly create accounts to harvest any amount of XRP and produce transactions. As the representatives of OpenCoin have pointed out numerous times, distributing XRPs evenly is a difficult problem. It is safe to conclude that:

XRPs must be scarce to prevent transaction spam

XRPs have similar properties to Bitcoins:

* They are divisible to many decimal places
* They are easily transmitted electronically
* They are fungible and homogeneous

XRPs have advantages over Bitcoins

* They cost less to transmit electronically
* They have intrinsic value (they enable transactions)
* They are truly deflationary (they get destroyed when used as transaction fees)
* They operate on a network that can scale almost limitlessly

XRPs have all of the attributes that define a good currency

The Ripple network implements a self-issued credit system that leverages transitive trust relationships to enable the broad circulation of digital IOUs. These money substitutes require risk management on the part of every user, as they need to trust at least one other entity in order to participate. But the XRP currency that circulates in Ripple system is special compared to the gateway IOUs:

XRPs have no counter-party risk, and transmitting them doesn't require gateway fees

In a fashion similar to Bitcoin, XRPs are secured by the consensus algorithm and cryptographic properties of the system. There is one big difference between Bitcoins and XRPs:

XRPs are distributed by a central authority

From the Ripple wiki entry, the founders keep 20 billion XRP, while OpenCoin distributes a fraction of the remaining 80 billion for free to bootstrap the system (a task currently being carried out). Whatever OpenCoin does not distribute for free, it will then sell. How much of the 80 billion is needed to bootstrap the network? If they give away 1,000 XRP to one million early adopters, that only consumes 1 billion XRP. This means that 99 billion of all the XRP that will ever be created is in the control of the authors of the system.

XRPs will trade for real currencies in an open market

Given that XRPs have no counter-party risk, miniscule fees, and all of the other properties:

Users will prefer XRPs as part of a trade over any IOUs

From all these points:

XRPs are superior to Bitcoins as a crypto-currency.

When asked directly about these disturbing facts, OpenCoin representatives give us vague answers:

So, can we get a straight answer?
...
Unfortunately, no. I am prohibited from discussing that.

This analysis brings us to one very disturbing conclusion:

The founders of Ripple will control over 99% of the purchasing power of XRPs for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Despite the lack of any significant goods and services enabled by the fledgling Ripple network recently opened to the public, there is already a robust trade in XRPs for other currencies like Bitcoin, US dollars, and foreign currencies:



To preserve XRPs function as an spam prevention, OpenCoin foundation must maintain the scarcity of XRPs by limiting their supply. This is also what creates the market for XRPs and gives them value. It is not possible to have XRPs be both worthless and also useful for preventing spam.

Combine all these facts with the odd statements and the carefully managed customer-facing facade of OpenCoin representatives and we have all the volatile ingredients necessary for the Next Big Cryptocurrency Drama.

glitch003 (OP)
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April 18, 2013, 06:17:14 PM
 #23

Please explain to me how it's more difficult for an open source project to provide patches and updates than a closed source one.  Linux, for example, is much more frequently updated than Mac OS X or Windows, yet Linux is open source and Mac OS X and Windows are closed source.

If you are running an older version of Linux, it doesn't affect my version.

But with peer to peer software, since all nodes communicate with each other if there's a change in the wire protocol or a change in the behavior of a message, everyone needs to upgrade. In Ripple, people who don't upgrade would have to be manually removed from the trusted nodes list, and their connections dropped. This would disrupt the network overlay and could make it difficult for the web based client to find nodes.


You're right, it's clearly impossible to do.  Nobody has ever written an open source p2p protocol that has changed.  Or they could just inform people that the network is still in it's infancy and as changes are made nodes that do not upgrade will be dropped.  Kind of like the mandatory 0.8.1 bitcoin client upgrade.

Quote
There is no real reason to keep it closed source at this point except for worries of forks.  Well guess what?  FORKS ARE GOOD FOR THE PROTOCOL!  They're good for the community, they're good for everyone EXCEPT OpenCoin, Inc.  Competition is healthy, and the fact that OpenCoin, Inc wants to hinder it until they're guaranteed to make a ton of money just shows how little they care about the protocol and how much they care about money.

Looking over the wiki (at https://ripple.com/wiki/Main_Page), you would have a difficult time convincing me that OpenCoin cares little about the protocol. In fact, Ripple is more well documentation has a more well defined specification than Bitcoin! Are you aware that the OpenCoin developers write the specs in the wiki first before committing to adding the code? Here's an example: https://ripple.com/wiki/Services_API#Federation_protocol


The fact that they won't let anyone else work on their protocol shows how much they care about it.  Do they really think that the combined wisdom of the entire internet can not improve their protocol at all?  Do you really think that?
dancupid
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April 18, 2013, 06:23:51 PM
 #24

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

How? xrp are clearly worthless, so how will they become millionaires?

XRP are worthless, yet the stated purpose of them is as an anti-spam measure.  For them to work as an anti-spam measure, by definition, they must have value.  So which is it?  Are they worthless or are they an anti-spam measure?

Give me your ripple address and I'll send 300 for free - enough for a lifetime of use. It's a waste of my time but worth it to make a point.
glitch003 (OP)
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April 18, 2013, 06:27:25 PM
 #25

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

How? xrp are clearly worthless, so how will they become millionaires?

XRP are worthless, yet the stated purpose of them is as an anti-spam measure.  For them to work as an anti-spam measure, by definition, they must have value.  So which is it?  Are they worthless or are they an anti-spam measure?

Give me your ripple address and I'll send 300 for free - enough for a lifetime of use. It's a waste of my time but worth it to make a point.

I understand that at this point in time 300 XRP is essentially worthless, just like 10,000 BTC was worth 2 pizzas in 2010.  But for XRP to fulfill it's intended purpose, it must have value.  The founders know this, and that is why they kept 20 billion XRP.  

Tell me, why would they keep the 20 billion XRP if it was worthless?  It's worthless, just give it all away!  They can just keep 300 XRP for themselves, because that's all they need to start an account.  Oh yeah, but then they can't cash in on it and make millions of dollars.
misterbigg
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April 18, 2013, 06:31:40 PM
 #26

Tell me, why would they keep the 20 billion XRP if it was worthless?  It's worthless, just give it all away!  They can just keep 300 XRP for themselves, because that's all they need to start an account.  Oh yeah, but then they can't cash in on it and make millions of dollars.

Did you read my post regarding enrichment of the founders? Clearly not.

You're a troll.
dancupid
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April 18, 2013, 06:32:49 PM
 #27

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

How? xrp are clearly worthless, so how will they become millionaires?

XRP are worthless, yet the stated purpose of them is as an anti-spam measure.  For them to work as an anti-spam measure, by definition, they must have value.  So which is it?  Are they worthless or are they an anti-spam measure?

Give me your ripple address and I'll send 300 for free - enough for a lifetime of use. It's a waste of my time but worth it to make a point.

I understand that at this point in time 300 XRP is essentially worthless, just like 10,000 BTC was worth 2 pizzas in 2010.  But for XRP to fulfill it's intended purpose, it must have value.  The founders know this, and that is why they kept 20 billion XRP.  

Tell me, why would they keep the 20 billion XRP if it was worthless?  It's worthless, just give it all away!  They can just keep 300 XRP for themselves, because that's all they need to start an account.  Oh yeah, but then they can't cash in on it and make millions of dollars.

They kept it so that you would complain. They kept it to make it worthless - you've already decided clearly it's a bad investment, and you are right. Why make them rich? It's worthless.
glitch003 (OP)
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April 18, 2013, 06:34:48 PM
 #28

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

How? xrp are clearly worthless, so how will they become millionaires?

XRP are worthless, yet the stated purpose of them is as an anti-spam measure.  For them to work as an anti-spam measure, by definition, they must have value.  So which is it?  Are they worthless or are they an anti-spam measure?

Give me your ripple address and I'll send 300 for free - enough for a lifetime of use. It's a waste of my time but worth it to make a point.

I understand that at this point in time 300 XRP is essentially worthless, just like 10,000 BTC was worth 2 pizzas in 2010.  But for XRP to fulfill it's intended purpose, it must have value.  The founders know this, and that is why they kept 20 billion XRP.  

Tell me, why would they keep the 20 billion XRP if it was worthless?  It's worthless, just give it all away!  They can just keep 300 XRP for themselves, because that's all they need to start an account.  Oh yeah, but then they can't cash in on it and make millions of dollars.

They kept it so that you would complain. They kept it to make it worthless - you've already decided clearly it's a bad investment, and you are right. Why make them rich? It's worthless.

It can't be worthless and used for anti-spam at the same time.  Make up your mind, which is it?
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April 18, 2013, 06:41:33 PM
 #29

Please don't get sucked into this scam people. So many warnings that some people decide to ignore.
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April 18, 2013, 06:42:56 PM
 #30

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

How? xrp are clearly worthless, so how will they become millionaires?

XRP are worthless, yet the stated purpose of them is as an anti-spam measure.  For them to work as an anti-spam measure, by definition, they must have value.  So which is it?  Are they worthless or are they an anti-spam measure?

Give me your ripple address and I'll send 300 for free - enough for a lifetime of use. It's a waste of my time but worth it to make a point.

I understand that at this point in time 300 XRP is essentially worthless, just like 10,000 BTC was worth 2 pizzas in 2010.  But for XRP to fulfill it's intended purpose, it must have value.  The founders know this, and that is why they kept 20 billion XRP.  

Tell me, why would they keep the 20 billion XRP if it was worthless?  It's worthless, just give it all away!  They can just keep 300 XRP for themselves, because that's all they need to start an account.  Oh yeah, but then they can't cash in on it and make millions of dollars.

They kept it so that you would complain. They kept it to make it worthless - you've already decided clearly it's a bad investment, and you are right. Why make them rich? It's worthless.

It can't be worthless and used for anti-spam at the same time.  Make up your mind, which is it?

So if it's worth something why not invest in it?
glitch003 (OP)
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April 18, 2013, 06:55:10 PM
 #31

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

How? xrp are clearly worthless, so how will they become millionaires?

XRP are worthless, yet the stated purpose of them is as an anti-spam measure.  For them to work as an anti-spam measure, by definition, they must have value.  So which is it?  Are they worthless or are they an anti-spam measure?

Give me your ripple address and I'll send 300 for free - enough for a lifetime of use. It's a waste of my time but worth it to make a point.

I understand that at this point in time 300 XRP is essentially worthless, just like 10,000 BTC was worth 2 pizzas in 2010.  But for XRP to fulfill it's intended purpose, it must have value.  The founders know this, and that is why they kept 20 billion XRP.  

Tell me, why would they keep the 20 billion XRP if it was worthless?  It's worthless, just give it all away!  They can just keep 300 XRP for themselves, because that's all they need to start an account.  Oh yeah, but then they can't cash in on it and make millions of dollars.

They kept it so that you would complain. They kept it to make it worthless - you've already decided clearly it's a bad investment, and you are right. Why make them rich? It's worthless.

It can't be worthless and used for anti-spam at the same time.  Make up your mind, which is it?

So if it's worth something why not invest in it?

Because it's a scam by the founders to get rich quickly and I don't want to support that?  From what everyone is saying, the whole thing could work without XRP even being involved.  Why not just use a captcha as an anti-spam measure instead of creating a whole new currency?  Every other website in the world just uses captchas.  Oh yeah, because you can't get 200 million dollars by implementing a captcha.
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April 18, 2013, 07:02:54 PM
 #32

Yes Ive known Ripple was doomed from inception.

Of course it was made to make money, it was one of the first ALTs that was created by a company. What do companies try to do? Make profit!

I never even signed up for free XRPs because I thought the whole thing was stupid.
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April 18, 2013, 11:06:55 PM
 #33

Quote
You're right, it's clearly impossible to do.  Nobody has ever written an open source p2p protocol that has changed.  Or they could just inform people that the network is still in it's infancy and as changes are made nodes that do not upgrade will be dropped.  Kind of like the mandatory 0.8.1 bitcoin client upgrade.
That update allowed some people to engage in double spending. It not an example of a seamingless transition.
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April 18, 2013, 11:46:43 PM
 #34

How can you be sure?
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April 18, 2013, 11:52:51 PM
 #35

Every thread like this is started by someone who

a) Has not researched ripple.

and/or

b) Does not have a working understanding of how money is currently transferred throughout the world.

and/or

c) Doesn't understand how companies and products are built.

But, on the bright side, users like misterbigg do a fantastic job of bringing the facts. Even if those efforts are met with persistent opposition regardless of the facts. 

tl;dr (lol @ the irony) Ripple is not a scam.

"It is a mistake to suppose that any technological innovation has a one-sided effect. Every technology is both a burden and a blessing; not either-or, but this-and-that." -Neil Postman Technopoly
1FooDLuTYk782GQNrY7zY1obTc4ceUfj5t
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April 19, 2013, 12:44:18 AM
 #36

Once the server has been released to the wild, it becomes very difficult to make changes.

Until the sever is open sourced, it is impossible for anyone to make changes.

Fixed for you.
misterbigg
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April 19, 2013, 12:49:13 AM
 #37

Until the sever is open sourced, it is impossible for anyone to make changes.

Fixed for you.

Okay so you're a troll who registered recently and all your posts are anti-Ripple. I'm more than willing to engage in a discourse but you're not adding anything to the conversation. I hate to do this but I will have to put you on ignore. If/when you are ready for a real dialogue and not mere trolling please send me a PM with a rational argument and I will un-ignore you.
misterbigg
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April 19, 2013, 12:50:25 AM
 #38

on the bright side, users like misterbigg do a fantastic job of bringing the facts. Even if those efforts are met with persistent opposition regardless of the facts.

I really do appreciate the kind words. It can be tough to take the unpopular position. I totally agree that the premine stinks like week old fish. It takes a lot of digging and investigation, and something of a leap of faith, to believe otherwise. I can't blame people for being wary, especially after all the alt-coin and Bitcoin scams.
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April 19, 2013, 01:01:52 AM
 #39

Until the sever is open sourced, it is impossible for anyone to make changes.
Ad hominem responses notwithstanding, that's about as rational as you can get.
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April 19, 2013, 02:06:33 AM
 #40

What are you talking about when saying the source code is kept private? 

https://ripple.com/wiki/Ripple_Client

https://github.com/rippleFoundation/ripple-client

The source is on git repo. Am I missing something?
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