Don't trust ripple! It's a get rich quick scheme for the creators.

[glitch003]

Ripple is currently closed source and controlled by a small group of people who reserved 20 billion XRP for themselves.  People say they will open source it eventually but they won't do it now because they don't want to lose control.

Is this not against everything that bitcoin stands for?  Collaborative development, healthy competition of cryptocurrencies, many eyes looking at the source code to try and find bugs and security issues.  So then why is Ripple still closed source?

Simply because the creators want to get rich from it.  As I stated above, they kept 20 billion of the 100 billion total XRP.  They want THEIR VERSION of Ripple to gain legitimacy so that they can sell those coins and become rich.  If someone were to fork ripple and make a better version, it would be beneficial to EVERYONE except the founders of the ripple.  And this is why, plain and simple, Ripple is a scam.  They're deliberately hurting and hindering development of the Ripple protocol to make some money themselves.  They will only open source it when there's a guarantee that their 20 billion XRP will be worth something.

Imagine if Satoshi had premined 4,200,000 BTC and kept it JUST FOR HIMSELF.  Everyone would be screaming what a huge scam Bitcoin is.  This is the situation that Ripple is in, where the founders are keeping 20% (!) of the total currency.

People say "but the XRP is just designed to be an anti spam measure, it's not a currency, it won't have value" but in order for it to work effectively as an anti-spam measure, XRP MUST HAVE VALUE.  The creators of Ripple know this, and if XRP's are even worth a single penny each, the creators have 200 million dollars.

If you like the idea of Ripple, please, create your own OPEN SOURCE version of it.  Other people, including myself, will contribute and make it a million times better than the current version of Ripple.  And it will be owned by the community, not a bunch of shady businessmen trying to get rich quickly.  Let's not forget that the owners of ripple BOUGHT it, and they expect to make a return on their investment. 




TL;DR; In it's current incarnation, Ripple is a get rich quick scheme for it's founders.  Don't let the shady businessmen who bought it pull the wool over your eyes!

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[dadrizforshizz]

Simply because the creators want to get rich from it.  As I stated above, they kept 20 billion of the 100 billion total XRP. 

I thought they kept 80% for themselves?

Regardless, there are idiots that are paying 1BTC (yes USD $92) per 10,000 ripples.....

[mr_random]

Simply because the creators want to get rich from it.  As I stated above, they kept 20 billion of the 100 billion total XRP. 

I thought they kept 80% for themselves?

Regardless, there are idiots that are paying 1BTC (yes USD $92) per 10,000 ripples.....

Yeah it's 80%.

100 billion XRP total, and they have kept 80 billion. Something like 1% would have been more than enough.

Ripple has a lot of money backing it and is strongly profit driven. I hope it fails and an open source alternative springs up.

[wizzardTim]

I totally agree..

[Minor Miner]

Get rich quick schemes where the founders get the richest.   Is there another word for those?

[glitch003]

Simply because the creators want to get rich from it.  As I stated above, they kept 20 billion of the 100 billion total XRP.

I thought they kept 80% for themselves?

Regardless, there are idiots that are paying 1BTC (yes USD $92) per 10,000 ripples.....

Yeah it's 80%.

100 billion XRP total, and they have kept 80 billion. Something like 1% would have been more than enough.

No you're actually wrong.  The opencoin foundation gets 80% (80 billion XRP) to distribute as they see fit.  The founders keep 20% (20 billion XRP) for themselves!!  Look it up.  

[mmeijeri]

Handing out currency to miners is no more and no less ethical than handing them out to the founders of a new currency. Use a currency if it serves your purposes and don't if it doesn't. Stop whining, Bitcoin doesn't exist to give you mining income or to let you get rich from any stash of bitcoins you might have amassed when they were still cheap. If Ripple takes off, it will be great for both BTC and XRP. If XRP ends up out-competing BTC, fine. It that means your bitcoins will become worthless, then boo-hoo-hoo.

[glitch003]

Handing out currency to miners is no more and no less ethical than handing them out to the founders of a new currency. Use a currency if it serves your purposes and don't if it doesn't. Stop whining, Bitcoin doesn't exist to give you mining income or to let you get rich from any stash of bitcoins you might have amassed when they were still cheap. If Ripple takes off, it will be great for both BTC and XRP. If XRP ends up out-competing BTC, fine. It that means your bitcoins will become worthless, then boo-hoo-hoo.

Miners EARN their coins by doing work for the network.  There is no "handing out" like there is with Ripple.  You should probably learn how the Bitcoin network works before you go spouting off BS like this.

[dadrizforshizz]

Handing out currency to miners is no more and no less ethical than handing them out to the founders of a new currency. Use a currency if it serves your purposes and don't if it doesn't. Stop whining, Bitcoin doesn't exist to give you mining income or to let you get rich from any stash of bitcoins you might have amassed when they were still cheap. If Ripple takes off, it will be great for both BTC and XRP. If XRP ends up out-competing BTC, fine. It that means your bitcoins will become worthless, then boo-hoo-hoo.

this post makes no sense....that would be like saying I created a new metal...it works well with gold and silver and you can use it as a intermediary between the two, but I am only giving out 20% of the metal and keeping the rest for myself and business partners for future sales so I can buy a yacht.

When miners mine bitcoin, they are cracking a code, they are producing energy and feeding the economy with jobs (tech, energy, etc)...ripple is nothing but a get rich quick scheme. I already have multiple wallets where my buddies can send me bitcoin or euro etc... why do I need another? (people will realize this and) It will die and the people that are paying $100 bucks for ripples will be mad.

[misterbigg]

Ripple is a get rich quick scheme for it's founders.

No one goes into business hoping to get poor      

But seriously, let's set aside emotion for just one moment. If Ripple delivers on all its promises and becomes the world-wide payment system that frees individuals from the traditional financial system, is it so bad that the founders get enriched?

If you truly do believe that everyone is going to use Ripple and that XRPs are going to skyrocket in value, nothing is stopping you from participating - you can buy XRP in bulk right now from Bitstamp (that's what I've done). Seems pretty fair to me.

[glitch003]

Ripple is a get rich quick scheme for it's founders.

No one goes into business hoping to get poor      

But seriously, let's set aside emotion for just one moment. If Ripple delivers on all its promises and becomes the world-wide payment system that frees individuals from the traditional financial system, is it so bad that the founders get enriched?

It's bad because it's centralization.  It's bad because, as I said above, keeping the client closed source at this point is bad for EVERYONE except the founders.  We could be working on making Ripple better and more robust, but instead they keep it closed because they want to get rich quickly.  By doing this, they're actively HURTING the idea of Ripple.


 It's clear from your post history that you have a dog in this fight, misterbigg.  So may I ask what exactly is your association with OpenCoin, Inc.  and Ripple?

[glitch003]

Ripple is a get rich quick scheme for it's founders.

If you truly do believe that everyone is going to use Ripple and that XRPs are going to skyrocket in value, nothing is stopping you from participating - you can buy XRP in bulk right now from Bitstamp (that's what I've done). Seems pretty fair to me.

I don't think they will skyrocket in value, but as I said above, even if they're worth a single penny each, the founders get 200 million dollars. WTF?

[dancupid]

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

[misterbigg]

It's bad because it's centralization.  It's bad because, as I said above, keeping the client closed source at this point is bad for EVERYONE except the founders.

At this point everyone agrees that OpenCoin needs to eventually make the server open source. Word on the street is that will be happening within a few months, this year for sure. If Ripple does not become open source, no one would trust it (including myself). I can't see how OpenCoin would hope that XRP will be taken seriously as a currency if they do not release the source code.

Let me ask you: Does Ripple have any hopes of gaining adoption if they don't release the source code?

We could be working on making Ripple better and more robust, but instead they keep it closed because they want to get rich quickly. By doing this, they're actively HURTING the idea of Ripple.

It's been said over and over again that Ripple needs to remain closed source until the necessary feature set has been fully implemented. Contracts aren't done yet (https://ripple.com/wiki/Contracts). There are many bugs and other things that need fixing. Once the server has been released to the wild, it becomes very difficult to make changes.

It is perfectly rational to expect that OpenCoin is hesitant to release unfinished software which is still in beta, if doing so would make it difficult to provide patches and updates.

Which part of this doesn't make sense to you?

It's clear from your post history that you have a dog in this fight, misterbigg.  So may I ask what exactly is your association with OpenCoin, Inc.  and Ripple?

I've answered this a few times already. I have no official association with OpenCoin. I am a holder of XRPs (and Bitcoins). That's it! How many times does this need to come up?

I don't think they will skyrocket in value, but as I said above, even if they're worth a single penny each, the founders get 200 million dollars. WTF?

I much rather OpenCoin generate $200m in revenue, some of which will go to paying 20+ developers, equipment costs, CEO, marketing, etc... instead of the Bitcoin development model where programmers have to panhandle for donations.

Again, I get that there is a bad taste coming from the XRP pre-mine but it seems that folks are ignoring the facts.

[glitch003]

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

[dancupid]

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

How? xrp are clearly worthless, so how will they become millionaires?

[misterbigg]

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

You've ignored the fact that you can do useful, productive things without using the XRP currency, and instead choose to just run around saying "its a scam, its a scam." Me and others have provided clear, factual reasons why Ripple is useful but you choose to ignore it.

At this point it's clear that you're not adding anything productive to the conversation and now only trolling.

[glitch003]

It is perfectly rational to expect that OpenCoin is hesitant to release unfinished software which is still in beta, if doing so would make it difficult to provide patches and updates.

Please explain to me how it's more difficult for an open source project to provide patches and updates than a closed source one.  Linux, for example, is much more frequently updated than Mac OS X or Windows, yet Linux is open source and Mac OS X and Windows are closed source.

If they label the software as "beta" and explain that it can and will change at any time, I people will not expect things like backwards compatibility.

There is no real reason to keep it closed source at this point except for worries of forks.  Well guess what?  FORKS ARE GOOD FOR THE PROTOCOL!  They're good for the community, they're good for everyone EXCEPT OpenCoin, Inc.  Competition is healthy, and the fact that OpenCoin, Inc wants to hinder it until they're guaranteed to make a ton of money just shows how little they care about the protocol and how much they care about money.

[glitch003]

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

How? xrp are clearly worthless, so how will they become millionaires?

XRP are worthless, yet the stated purpose of them is as an anti-spam measure.  For them to work as an anti-spam measure, by definition, they must have value.  So which is it?  Are they worthless or are they an anti-spam measure?

[glitch003]

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

You've ignored the fact that you can do useful, productive things without using the XRP currency

Then why have XRP at all?  Oh yeah, to prevent spam.  But to prevent spam it must have value.  So then if XRP has value, XRP is like a currency, plain and simple.  You're right misterbigg, XRP has no purpose.  Except to make the founders rich.  

[misterbigg]

Please explain to me how it's more difficult for an open source project to provide patches and updates than a closed source one.  Linux, for example, is much more frequently updated than Mac OS X or Windows, yet Linux is open source and Mac OS X and Windows are closed source.

If you are running an older version of Linux, it doesn't affect my version.

But with peer to peer software, since all nodes communicate with each other if there's a change in the wire protocol or a change in the behavior of a message, everyone needs to upgrade. In Ripple, people who don't upgrade would have to be manually removed from the trusted nodes list, and their connections dropped. This would disrupt the network overlay and could make it difficult for the web based client to find nodes.

There is no real reason to keep it closed source at this point except for worries of forks.  Well guess what?  FORKS ARE GOOD FOR THE PROTOCOL!  They're good for the community, they're good for everyone EXCEPT OpenCoin, Inc.  Competition is healthy, and the fact that OpenCoin, Inc wants to hinder it until they're guaranteed to make a ton of money just shows how little they care about the protocol and how much they care about money.

Looking over the wiki (at https://ripple.com/wiki/Main_Page), you would have a difficult time convincing me that OpenCoin cares little about the protocol. In fact, Ripple is more well documented has a more well defined specification than Bitcoin! Are you aware that the OpenCoin developers write the specs in the wiki first before committing to adding the code? Here's an example: https://ripple.com/wiki/Services_API#Federation_protocol

[misterbigg]

Then why have XRP at all?  Oh yeah, to prevent spam.  But to prevent spam it must have value.  So then if XRP has value, XRP is like a currency, plain and simple.

No one is disputing that but at this point you're restating things that have already been said. By me, in fact.

Here's the link to my original post:

Ripple: Disproportionate enrichment of the founders of the system?

And I'll repeat the text since you can't be bothered to click the link:

_______________________________________________________________________________ _____

Note: The following analysis assumes that the Ripple system eventually becomes open sourced, gets decentralized, and that rigorous mathematical analysis proves that the system is robust and fulfills its technical promises.

From the Ripple wiki

XRP are the only currency in the Ripple network that has no counter-party risk and can be sent to any account without a trust relationship.

When the Ripple network was created, 100 billion XRP was created. The founders gave 80 billion XRP to the OpenCoin Inc. OpenCoin Inc. will develop the Ripple software, promote the Ripple payment system, give away XRP, and sell XRP.

Let's review some facts:

* XRP is a cryptocurrency implemented in the Ripple system
* Only 100 billion XRPs can ever exist
* XRP must be expended and destroyed to perform transactions
* An XRP balance is required to fund an account
* It is claimed that the purpose of XRP is to prevent spam

There has been a fair amount of discussion about methods of XRP distribution for preventing spam. For example, to automatically fill each newly created account with some nominal amount of XRP. It should be obvious why such a scheme cannot work to prevent spam; all a spammer need do is repeatedly create accounts to harvest any amount of XRP and produce transactions. As the representatives of OpenCoin have pointed out numerous times, distributing XRPs evenly is a difficult problem. It is safe to conclude that:

XRPs must be scarce to prevent transaction spam

XRPs have similar properties to Bitcoins:

* They are divisible to many decimal places
* They are easily transmitted electronically
* They are fungible and homogeneous

XRPs have advantages over Bitcoins

* They cost less to transmit electronically
* They have intrinsic value (they enable transactions)
* They are truly deflationary (they get destroyed when used as transaction fees)
* They operate on a network that can scale almost limitlessly

XRPs have all of the attributes that define a good currency

The Ripple network implements a self-issued credit system that leverages transitive trust relationships to enable the broad circulation of digital IOUs. These money substitutes require risk management on the part of every user, as they need to trust at least one other entity in order to participate. But the XRP currency that circulates in Ripple system is special compared to the gateway IOUs:

XRPs have no counter-party risk, and transmitting them doesn't require gateway fees

In a fashion similar to Bitcoin, XRPs are secured by the consensus algorithm and cryptographic properties of the system. There is one big difference between Bitcoins and XRPs:

XRPs are distributed by a central authority

From the Ripple wiki entry, the founders keep 20 billion XRP, while OpenCoin distributes a fraction of the remaining 80 billion for free to bootstrap the system (a task currently being carried out). Whatever OpenCoin does not distribute for free, it will then sell. How much of the 80 billion is needed to bootstrap the network? If they give away 1,000 XRP to one million early adopters, that only consumes 1 billion XRP. This means that 99 billion of all the XRP that will ever be created is in the control of the authors of the system.

XRPs will trade for real currencies in an open market

Given that XRPs have no counter-party risk, miniscule fees, and all of the other properties:

Users will prefer XRPs as part of a trade over any IOUs

From all these points:

XRPs are superior to Bitcoins as a crypto-currency.

When asked directly about these disturbing facts, OpenCoin representatives give us vague answers:

So, can we get a straight answer?
...

Unfortunately, no. I am prohibited from discussing that.

This analysis brings us to one very disturbing conclusion:

The founders of Ripple will control over 99% of the purchasing power of XRPs for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Despite the lack of any significant goods and services enabled by the fledgling Ripple network recently opened to the public, there is already a robust trade in XRPs for other currencies like Bitcoin, US dollars, and foreign currencies:



To preserve XRPs function as an spam prevention, OpenCoin foundation must maintain the scarcity of XRPs by limiting their supply. This is also what creates the market for XRPs and gives them value. It is not possible to have XRPs be both worthless and also useful for preventing spam.

Combine all these facts with the odd statements and the carefully managed customer-facing facade of OpenCoin representatives and we have all the volatile ingredients necessary for the Next Big Cryptocurrency Drama.

[glitch003]

Please explain to me how it's more difficult for an open source project to provide patches and updates than a closed source one.  Linux, for example, is much more frequently updated than Mac OS X or Windows, yet Linux is open source and Mac OS X and Windows are closed source.

If you are running an older version of Linux, it doesn't affect my version.

But with peer to peer software, since all nodes communicate with each other if there's a change in the wire protocol or a change in the behavior of a message, everyone needs to upgrade. In Ripple, people who don't upgrade would have to be manually removed from the trusted nodes list, and their connections dropped. This would disrupt the network overlay and could make it difficult for the web based client to find nodes.

You're right, it's clearly impossible to do.  Nobody has ever written an open source p2p protocol that has changed.  Or they could just inform people that the network is still in it's infancy and as changes are made nodes that do not upgrade will be dropped.  Kind of like the mandatory 0.8.1 bitcoin client upgrade.

There is no real reason to keep it closed source at this point except for worries of forks.  Well guess what?  FORKS ARE GOOD FOR THE PROTOCOL!  They're good for the community, they're good for everyone EXCEPT OpenCoin, Inc.  Competition is healthy, and the fact that OpenCoin, Inc wants to hinder it until they're guaranteed to make a ton of money just shows how little they care about the protocol and how much they care about money.

Looking over the wiki (at https://ripple.com/wiki/Main_Page), you would have a difficult time convincing me that OpenCoin cares little about the protocol. In fact, Ripple is more well documentation has a more well defined specification than Bitcoin! Are you aware that the OpenCoin developers write the specs in the wiki first before committing to adding the code? Here's an example: https://ripple.com/wiki/Services_API#Federation_protocol

The fact that they won't let anyone else work on their protocol shows how much they care about it.  Do they really think that the combined wisdom of the entire internet can not improve their protocol at all?  Do you really think that?

[dancupid]

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

How? xrp are clearly worthless, so how will they become millionaires?

XRP are worthless, yet the stated purpose of them is as an anti-spam measure.  For them to work as an anti-spam measure, by definition, they must have value.  So which is it?  Are they worthless or are they an anti-spam measure?

Give me your ripple address and I'll send 300 for free - enough for a lifetime of use. It's a waste of my time but worth it to make a point.

[glitch003]

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

How? xrp are clearly worthless, so how will they become millionaires?

XRP are worthless, yet the stated purpose of them is as an anti-spam measure.  For them to work as an anti-spam measure, by definition, they must have value.  So which is it?  Are they worthless or are they an anti-spam measure?

Give me your ripple address and I'll send 300 for free - enough for a lifetime of use. It's a waste of my time but worth it to make a point.

I understand that at this point in time 300 XRP is essentially worthless, just like 10,000 BTC was worth 2 pizzas in 2010.  But for XRP to fulfill it's intended purpose, it must have value.  The founders know this, and that is why they kept 20 billion XRP.  

Tell me, why would they keep the 20 billion XRP if it was worthless?  It's worthless, just give it all away!  They can just keep 300 XRP for themselves, because that's all they need to start an account.  Oh yeah, but then they can't cash in on it and make millions of dollars.

[misterbigg]

Tell me, why would they keep the 20 billion XRP if it was worthless?  It's worthless, just give it all away!  They can just keep 300 XRP for themselves, because that's all they need to start an account.  Oh yeah, but then they can't cash in on it and make millions of dollars.

Did you read my post regarding enrichment of the founders? Clearly not.

You're a troll.

[dancupid]

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

How? xrp are clearly worthless, so how will they become millionaires?

XRP are worthless, yet the stated purpose of them is as an anti-spam measure.  For them to work as an anti-spam measure, by definition, they must have value.  So which is it?  Are they worthless or are they an anti-spam measure?

Give me your ripple address and I'll send 300 for free - enough for a lifetime of use. It's a waste of my time but worth it to make a point.

I understand that at this point in time 300 XRP is essentially worthless, just like 10,000 BTC was worth 2 pizzas in 2010.  But for XRP to fulfill it's intended purpose, it must have value.  The founders know this, and that is why they kept 20 billion XRP.  

Tell me, why would they keep the 20 billion XRP if it was worthless?  It's worthless, just give it all away!  They can just keep 300 XRP for themselves, because that's all they need to start an account.  Oh yeah, but then they can't cash in on it and make millions of dollars.

They kept it so that you would complain. They kept it to make it worthless - you've already decided clearly it's a bad investment, and you are right. Why make them rich? It's worthless.

[glitch003]

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

How? xrp are clearly worthless, so how will they become millionaires?

XRP are worthless, yet the stated purpose of them is as an anti-spam measure.  For them to work as an anti-spam measure, by definition, they must have value.  So which is it?  Are they worthless or are they an anti-spam measure?

Give me your ripple address and I'll send 300 for free - enough for a lifetime of use. It's a waste of my time but worth it to make a point.

I understand that at this point in time 300 XRP is essentially worthless, just like 10,000 BTC was worth 2 pizzas in 2010.  But for XRP to fulfill it's intended purpose, it must have value.  The founders know this, and that is why they kept 20 billion XRP.  

Tell me, why would they keep the 20 billion XRP if it was worthless?  It's worthless, just give it all away!  They can just keep 300 XRP for themselves, because that's all they need to start an account.  Oh yeah, but then they can't cash in on it and make millions of dollars.

They kept it so that you would complain. They kept it to make it worthless - you've already decided clearly it's a bad investment, and you are right. Why make them rich? It's worthless.

It can't be worthless and used for anti-spam at the same time.  Make up your mind, which is it?

[ymer]

Please don't get sucked into this scam people. So many warnings that some people decide to ignore.

[dancupid]

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

How? xrp are clearly worthless, so how will they become millionaires?

XRP are worthless, yet the stated purpose of them is as an anti-spam measure.  For them to work as an anti-spam measure, by definition, they must have value.  So which is it?  Are they worthless or are they an anti-spam measure?

Give me your ripple address and I'll send 300 for free - enough for a lifetime of use. It's a waste of my time but worth it to make a point.

I understand that at this point in time 300 XRP is essentially worthless, just like 10,000 BTC was worth 2 pizzas in 2010.  But for XRP to fulfill it's intended purpose, it must have value.  The founders know this, and that is why they kept 20 billion XRP.  

Tell me, why would they keep the 20 billion XRP if it was worthless?  It's worthless, just give it all away!  They can just keep 300 XRP for themselves, because that's all they need to start an account.  Oh yeah, but then they can't cash in on it and make millions of dollars.

They kept it so that you would complain. They kept it to make it worthless - you've already decided clearly it's a bad investment, and you are right. Why make them rich? It's worthless.

It can't be worthless and used for anti-spam at the same time.  Make up your mind, which is it?

So if it's worth something why not invest in it?

[glitch003]

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

How? xrp are clearly worthless, so how will they become millionaires?

XRP are worthless, yet the stated purpose of them is as an anti-spam measure.  For them to work as an anti-spam measure, by definition, they must have value.  So which is it?  Are they worthless or are they an anti-spam measure?

Give me your ripple address and I'll send 300 for free - enough for a lifetime of use. It's a waste of my time but worth it to make a point.

I understand that at this point in time 300 XRP is essentially worthless, just like 10,000 BTC was worth 2 pizzas in 2010.  But for XRP to fulfill it's intended purpose, it must have value.  The founders know this, and that is why they kept 20 billion XRP.  

Tell me, why would they keep the 20 billion XRP if it was worthless?  It's worthless, just give it all away!  They can just keep 300 XRP for themselves, because that's all they need to start an account.  Oh yeah, but then they can't cash in on it and make millions of dollars.

They kept it so that you would complain. They kept it to make it worthless - you've already decided clearly it's a bad investment, and you are right. Why make them rich? It's worthless.

It can't be worthless and used for anti-spam at the same time.  Make up your mind, which is it?

So if it's worth something why not invest in it?

Because it's a scam by the founders to get rich quickly and I don't want to support that?  From what everyone is saying, the whole thing could work without XRP even being involved.  Why not just use a captcha as an anti-spam measure instead of creating a whole new currency?  Every other website in the world just uses captchas.  Oh yeah, because you can't get 200 million dollars by implementing a captcha.

[CoinHoarder]

Yes Ive known Ripple was doomed from inception.

Of course it was made to make money, it was one of the first ALTs that was created by a company. What do companies try to do? Make profit!

I never even signed up for free XRPs because I thought the whole thing was stupid.

[ChristianK]

You're right, it's clearly impossible to do.  Nobody has ever written an open source p2p protocol that has changed.  Or they could just inform people that the network is still in it's infancy and as changes are made nodes that do not upgrade will be dropped.  Kind of like the mandatory 0.8.1 bitcoin client upgrade.

That update allowed some people to engage in double spending. It not an example of a seamingless transition.

[seostrat]

How can you be sure?

[LeTanque]

Every thread like this is started by someone who

a) Has not researched ripple.

and/or

b) Does not have a working understanding of how money is currently transferred throughout the world.

and/or

c) Doesn't understand how companies and products are built.

But, on the bright side, users like misterbigg do a fantastic job of bringing the facts. Even if those efforts are met with persistent opposition regardless of the facts. 

tl;dr (lol @ the irony) Ripple is not a scam.

[bitcoinbeliever]

Once the server has been released to the wild, it becomes very difficult to make changes.

Until the sever is open sourced, it is impossible for anyone to make changes.

Fixed for you.

[misterbigg]

Until the sever is open sourced, it is impossible for anyone to make changes.

Fixed for you.

Okay so you're a troll who registered recently and all your posts are anti-Ripple. I'm more than willing to engage in a discourse but you're not adding anything to the conversation. I hate to do this but I will have to put you on ignore. If/when you are ready for a real dialogue and not mere trolling please send me a PM with a rational argument and I will un-ignore you.

[misterbigg]

on the bright side, users like misterbigg do a fantastic job of bringing the facts. Even if those efforts are met with persistent opposition regardless of the facts.

I really do appreciate the kind words. It can be tough to take the unpopular position. I totally agree that the premine stinks like week old fish. It takes a lot of digging and investigation, and something of a leap of faith, to believe otherwise. I can't blame people for being wary, especially after all the alt-coin and Bitcoin scams.

[bitcoinbeliever]

Until the sever is open sourced, it is impossible for anyone to make changes.

Ad hominem responses notwithstanding, that's about as rational as you can get.

[BitGoing]

What are you talking about when saying the source code is kept private? 

https://ripple.com/wiki/Ripple_Client

https://github.com/rippleFoundation/ripple-client

The source is on git repo. Am I missing something?

[QuantumQrack]

What are you talking about when saying the source code is kept private? 

https://ripple.com/wiki/Ripple_Client

https://github.com/rippleFoundation/ripple-client

The source is on git repo. Am I missing something?

Server exchange code.

[chriswen]

Yeah, you can't set up a validator yet. 

But that is because they might be implementing protocol changes and its easier to do that when they have less validators.  Eventually they'll open source the code.  Or release it so you can be a validator.

[mmeijeri]

Miners EARN their coins by doing work for the network.  There is no "handing out" like there is with Ripple.  You should probably learn how the Bitcoin network works before you go spouting off BS like this.

I understand Bitcoin just fine, thank you very much. Yes, miners work for their bitcoins, just as the founders of Ripple are having to work hard and having to get investors involved to get their currency established. Of course, the early miners didn't have to work very hard, as it was really easy to mine. Nevertheless either choice is perfectly fine, and perfectly ethical, and time will tell which of the two will be more successful. It is perfectly possible that both will succeed. And even if XRP doesn't succeed as a currency, the distributed exchange mechanism provided by Ripple will be of great benefit to Bitcoin.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

RippleScam.org is looking for contributors. If you would like to write a guest post, or add any additional information, send me a PM.

[drawingthesun]

Here is a good question, can any of the core developers confirm that they are not trading their ripples for Bitcoin?

I understand 1 developer alone was graned 1 billion XRP.

Please confirm if you are or are not selling your ripples for Bitcoin at this time.

The answer to this question may help determine if ripple is a scam and its extent.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

"Out of the 100 billion XRP that can ever exist, the founders kept 20 billion while OpenCoin received the remainder of 80 billion. From that 80 billion OpenCoin will sell 30 billion to fund ongoing development beyond the initial angel investment, and the remaining 50 billion will be given away to spur adoption."

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/8519/how-long-will-it-take-for-opencoin-to-distribute-the-50-billion-xrps

I'm pretty sure the 20 billion given to the developers were "no strings attached", because the developers gave themselves the ripples.

[drawingthesun]

"Out of the 100 billion XRP that can ever exist, the founders kept 20 billion while OpenCoin received the remainder of 80 billion. From that 80 billion OpenCoin will sell 30 billion to fund ongoing development beyond the initial angel investment, and the remaining 50 billion will be given away to spur adoption."

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/8519/how-long-will-it-take-for-opencoin-to-distribute-the-50-billion-xrps

I'm pretty sure the 20 billion given to the developers were "no strings attached", because the developers gave themselves the ripples.

I am interested in how fast and how much the developers are selling. How many Bitcoin have they gained so far?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Are you expecting accountability and transparency from a for profit company? 

Nobody other than OpenCoin Inc and their employees knows, but I think they haven't sold much yet and are still relying on their initial funding.

[drawingthesun]

Are you expecting accountability and transparency from a for profit company? 

Nobody other than OpenCoin Inc and their employees knows, but I think they haven't sold much yet and are still relying on their initial funding.

No I am not expecting anything from them and that just confirms the extent of this rubbish. The developers come here and preach openness and changing the world, they release enough XRP to make the value high and they don't talk about the hundreds of millions of XRP each developer has. All these hippy suckers spending a entire Bitcoin for a sliver of a fraction of a developers stash of XRP.

I cannot understand all these people on this forum proclaiming the awesomeness of Ripple. I personally think they are paid accounts, can't be real people this stupid.

The whole idea of Bitcoin is taking us away from a debt based economy, and Ripple just brings it all back again, same old same old. Ripple is something a bank would create to compete with Bitcoin.

[NewAgeCoins]

You've ignored the fact that you can do useful, productive things without using the XRP currency, and instead choose to just run around saying "its a scam, its a scam." Me and others have provided clear, factual reasons why Ripple is useful but you choose to ignore it.

I haven't seen a clear explanation of what ripple is. It seems sort of confusing...

When I heard about bitcoin, it seemed very clear what it was (confusing part was how it did it)

With ripple, I'm just not sure what I'm reading about..

[glitch003]

RippleScam.org is looking for contributors. If you would like to write a guest post, or add any additional information, send me a PM.

Nice, this just popped up as well, looks like it's mostly from this thread:  http://www.rippleisascam.com

[coinft]

Until the sever is open sourced, it is impossible for anyone to make changes.

Fixed for you.

Okay so you're a troll who registered recently and all your posts are anti-Ripple. I'm more than willing to engage in a discourse but you're not adding anything to the conversation. I hate to do this but I will have to put you on ignore. If/when you are ready for a real dialogue and not mere trolling please send me a PM with a rational argument and I will un-ignore you.

He may be a new user and a troll, but that doesn't change the facts. In fact I believe he is much to lenient:

Until the server is open sourced, we must assume it is insecure and unsafe to use. Malicious evil or plain incompetence, security
by obscurity never works. Further we must assume some evil guys will find security holes eventually even without the source. Honest researchers will ignore it. That alone is reason enough to advice people strongly not to use it.

I'd like to believe the devs started with good intent, but eventually time and money ran out and they had to rush a product to market too embarrassing to show to the world now, with investors breathing down their necks. This theory is backed by the at first barely functional client, which still shows wrong numbers at times, and has the most unreadable order book UI I've ever seen.

[mr_random]

- Closed source
- Created by a profit driven entity
- Centralised
- Still unclear, ambiguous and complicated
- Creators have given themselves 80% of the money supply just because they felt like it. No specific announcements what's going to happen to these 80 billion XRP other than some vague mumblings about giving some more away
- A multitude of suspicious accounts on this forum that are extremely 'pro-Ripple' and were created after Ripple started their XRP giveaway

[misterbigg]

...That alone is reason enough to advice people strongly not to use it.

I can agree with this. Sure, don't use it.  Its risky as hell, and for all the reasons that you mentioned. But saying that these guys are scammers and they went into it with dishonest intentions, that seems like trolling to me and more importantly it doesn't really fit the facts. It's an emotional response that has no place in a civil discourse.

[mmeijeri]

Well, I'd say it's a good reason not to hold large amounts of XRP or IOUs for now, not an argument against using Ripple as an exchange between BTC and fiat currencies, or as a mechanism to make fiat payments through your trust network.

[misterbigg]

Well, I'd say it's a good reason not to hold large amounts of XRP or IOUs for now, not an argument against using Ripple as an exchange between BTC and fiat currencies, or as a mechanism to make fiat payments through your trust network.

Yep, that's exactly right. In your wallet you can set the trust lines to whatever you think is appropriate. If you just want to fool around you could extend trust to Bitstamp only for small amounts like $120 in USD or 1 BTC. You don't have to buy XRP to use the other features of Ripple.

[virtualmaster]

 
That is surely.
But guilty are those who pay 1 BTC for 50.000 Ripple.
That is giving to you the impression it is so much but thre will be 100 billions of Ripple so they cash 2 million bitcoins(by 1BTC=50.000 Ripple) for a centralized, not open source system coins which is still not working as designed and almost doesn't have exchanges.
The next one will make another system with 100 trillions of his coins and will give to you 100 millions for 1 BTC.

[dancupid]

- Closed source
- Created by a profit driven entity
- Centralised
- Still unclear, ambiguous and complicated
- Creators have given themselves 80% of the money supply just because they felt like it. No specific announcements what's going to happen to these 80 billion XRP other than some vague mumblings about giving some more away
- A multitude of suspicious accounts on this forum that are extremely 'pro-Ripple' and were created after Ripple started their XRP giveaway

You have all the facts - everyone else does to. And on the basis of these very clear universally understood facts people will make their own decisions - xrp is not a scam, just a bad investment.

[mmeijeri]

You have all the facts - everyone else does to. And on the basis of these very clear universally understood facts people will make their own decisions - xrp is not a scam, just a bad investment.

Perhaps, but it could still be an excellent distributed BTC exchange and trust-based payment system.

[dancupid]

You have all the facts - everyone else does too. And on the basis of these very clear universally understood facts people will make their own decisions - xrp is not a scam, just a bad investment.

Perhaps, but it could still be an excellent distributed BTC exchange and trust-based payment system.

Yep - I agree. Too many people focus on xrp

[mmeijeri]

Yep - I agree. Too many people focus on xrp

Yeah. I suspect that's because some people fear it will thwart their own plans to strike it rich with BTC they amassed back when mining was still easy. I'm not so sure the competition with XRP will in fact outweigh the synergy from the Ripple exchange system, but perhaps they are. Personally, I think the odds of at least one of the two currencies, and quite possibly both, being successful will be greatly improved by the advent of the Ripple trading system.

[glitch003]

- Closed source
- Created by a profit driven entity
- Centralised
- Still unclear, ambiguous and complicated
- Creators have given themselves 80% of the money supply just because they felt like it. No specific announcements what's going to happen to these 80 billion XRP other than some vague mumblings about giving some more away
- A multitude of suspicious accounts on this forum that are extremely 'pro-Ripple' and were created after Ripple started their XRP giveaway

They've actually given themselves 100% of the money supply since there is no mining.  Of the 100 billion XRP total, 20 billion (!) are kept by the founders, forever, with no strings attached.  The other 80 billion are to be "distributed" by OpenCoin Incorporated as they see fit.  So basically, they will give it to their friends, people they like, projects they find useful, and also plenty of random people like in the Ripple Giveaway thread here on bitcointalk.org.



I just want to be clear about something.  I'm not saying the idea of Ripple is bad, I'm saying that the XRP currency part of it is a scam.  What is the purpose of XRP?  It's for "anti-spam" but why wouldn't they just use captchas for anti-spam like every other major website on the internet?  They could also use the proof-of-work algorithm for anti-spam purposes, where everyone's computer has to generate a token which takes computing power and makes creating many tokens very costly. 

The original purpose of the HashCash algorithm was to prevent spam and abuses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof-of-work_system  Why create a whole new currency when you could just use scrypt with a sufficient difficulty or Hashcash with a sufficient difficulty? 



The only reason to create XRP, a premined coin, is to get rich quickly.  That is why it's a scam. 

[pekv2]

I was wondering what ripple was till I read the OP. Closed source aye? pff, fuck that. No wonder I stayed away from it just by the name of it and how many people were advertising it, people making accounts or taking accounts out of hibernation for ripple. Bitcoin & Litecoin.

[Terpie]

Well, I'd say it's a good reason not to hold large amounts of XRP or IOUs for now, not an argument against using Ripple as an exchange between BTC and fiat currencies, or as a mechanism to make fiat payments through your trust network.

Yep, that's exactly right. In your wallet you can set the trust lines to whatever you think is appropriate. If you just want to fool around you could extend trust to Bitstamp only for small amounts like $120 in USD or 1 BTC. You don't have to buy XRP to use the other features of Ripple.

So XRP sucks... but we can use the other features, which are effectively a shitty version of Paypal? Gateway trust accounts are centrally-controlled single-point of failures where you can claim your assets out of the Ripple system, right? I just don't see any reason to start using Ripple until it is open-sourced.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

It gets even worse. Say you trust MtGox for 50k (you have 50k balance in "USD [tiny print: mtgox IOUs, not actual dollars]"), and you trust MyExchange for 10k. You have 0k balance in MyExchange IOUs.

You wake up one day and see MyExchange's owner ran. No worries, right, you had no exposure to MyExchange, right?

5 minutes earlier, you acted as a "liquidity provider", and exchanged 10k of MtGox USD IOUs for MyExchange USD IOUs. For no fee. With zero indication. And the owner of MyEx now has your Gox IOUs.

[mmeijeri]

So XRP sucks...

I wouldn't say it sucks, I have high hopes for it, but it all depends on whether OpenCoin releases the source code and manages the process of distributing XRP well. It would seem to be in their interest to do so, but only time wil tell.

but we can use the other features, which are effectively a shitty version of Paypal?

Not 'shitty' at all. You don't even have to use gateways at all if you are willing to rely on your trust graph. Settlement could be done purely in BTC and cash if that's what you wanted. And even if you do use a gateway, you don't have to settle every transaction.

Gateway trust accounts are centrally-controlled single-point of failures where you can claim your assets out of the Ripple system, right? I just don't see any reason to start using Ripple until it is open-sourced.

Gateways are professional issuers of IOUs, but anyone can act as an ad-hoc issuer with their friends. It extends the reach of anonymous cash transactions.

[markm]

It gets even worse. Say you trust MtGox for 50k (you have 50k balance in "USD [tiny print: mtgox IOUs, not actual dollars]"), and you trust MyExchange for 10k. You have 0k balance in MyExchange IOUs.

You wake up one day and see MyExchange's owner ran. No worries, right, you had no exposure to MyExchange, right?

5 minutes earlier, you acted as a "liquidity provider", and exchanged 10k of MtGox USD IOUs for MyExchange USD IOUs. For no fee. With zero indication. And the owner of MyEx now has your Gox IOUs.

If you trust someone with 10k and they run off with it maybe you just misplaced your trust or put too high a number on it?

What for were you trusting them that much anyway if you have none of their IOUs? Presumably you hoped to act as liquidity provider and had set up in such a way you would get some kind of fee or something? Otherwise why the heck all that trust in the first place?

-MarkM-

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

It gets even worse. Say you trust MtGox for 50k (you have 50k balance in "USD [tiny print: mtgox IOUs, not actual dollars]"), and you trust MyExchange for 10k. You have 0k balance in MyExchange IOUs.

You wake up one day and see MyExchange's owner ran. No worries, right, you had no exposure to MyExchange, right?

5 minutes earlier, you acted as a "liquidity provider", and exchanged 10k of MtGox USD IOUs for MyExchange USD IOUs. For no fee. With zero indication. And the owner of MyEx now has your Gox IOUs.

If you trust someone with 10k and they run off with it maybe you just misplaced your trust or put too high a number on it?

What for were you trusting them that much anyway if you have none of their IOUs? Presumably you hoped to act as liquidity provider and had set up in such a way you would get some kind of fee or something? Otherwise why the heck all that trust in the first place?

-MarkM-

You don't have to be the person making this stupid mistake. If anyone in your trust network does (and that can extend to infinity), and you have a chain where defaults occur because of this, then you're affected.

[nyusternie]

after a few weeks working with the open-source client, i really like the fundamentals of the ripple protocol and support the hard-work and continued efforts made by the dev team. but i don't think that is what is being argued in this discussion. in regards to this being a scam, ever since i was informed of this 100b pre-mine, i've kept ripple at an arms distance.

my opinion as to what is most likely to happen is:
1. the developers will keep the source closed until they feel they've profited sufficiently from xrp->btc trades
2. the source will be open-sourced
3. the source will be forked
4. x amount of NEW xrp (or some other 3-letter combo) will be re-distributed wholly & fairly based on some agreed community consensus
5. everyone will be happy

opencoin and the ripple devs are not fools and know damn well that the moment they go open-source there will be a community fork and they will lose everything.

btw - last time i checked xrp were trading at ~1,000 xrp per $1usd, which currently values ripple at ~100 million usd. imo 5% between all parties would have been reasonable & fair and avoided this whole scam issue

[Terpie]

btw - last time i checked xrp were trading at ~1,000 xrp per $1usd, which currently values ripple at ~100 million usd. imo 5% between all parties would have been reasonable & fair and avoided this whole scam issue

It's not quite accurate to use the 100 billion total amount in your market cap calculation, since 99% are essentially in cold storage. It would be similar to using the total BTC (21MM) in a calculation on today's market cap. I think they said they've released over 100M, so even if you give them the benefit of the doubt and claim 1 Billion are in circulation, then that gives a market cap of $1MM. That number makes way more sense since they just took angel funding from a VC.

edit: you're right, though. If they had some fair distribution algo for XRP and only reserved like 5% for themselves, I doubt they would have gotten anywhere near this much push back. Unfortunately, as it stands now, they have reserved 100% for themselves and 'promised' to distribute 50% according to their own whims. I know how much that promise will be worth if they see success prior to complete distribution.

[mr_random]

Don't forget, people who aren't clued up on this Ripple scam are actually spending their hard earned BTC on these XRP, unaware that billions more are going to be dumped onto the market, lowering the price of XRP further. This has already started to happen.

What's the point in buying XRP when so many of the XRP are being held back and aren't in the money supply yet.

[nyusternie]

It's not quite accurate to use the 100 billion total amount in your market cap calculation, since 99% are essentially in cold storage. It would be similar to using the total BTC (21MM) in a calculation on today's market cap. I think they said they've released over 100M, so even if you give them the benefit of the doubt and claim 1 Billion are in circulation, then that gives a market cap of $1MM. That number makes way more sense since they just took angel funding from a VC.

you are right. and i did consider that, however, its still not the same as btc that atm cannot be produced any faster than 25btc every 10min or so. if xrp become very valuable tomorrow, opencoin has no limits on how wide they can open those flood gates.

its cynical yes (and i try not to be), but unless proven otherwise i believe there is a systematic process going on as we speak to make the conversion from xrp->btc. i don't see any other "realistic" means of opencoin et al recouping their investment.

i'll also go on record as stating that their goto excuse rationale that open-sourcing now would lead to hard-forks is technically true, but utterly ridiculous (see every other successful p2p project) -- stick a "currently in alpha" tag on it and keep it movin'

regardless, i really look forward to using ripple, in whatever form it exists, after the unveiling and all the dust has settled

@opencoin et al please view this as constructive criticism from a supporter

[Luckybit]

Ripple is a get rich quick scheme for it's founders.

No one goes into business hoping to get poor      

But seriously, let's set aside emotion for just one moment. If Ripple delivers on all its promises and becomes the world-wide payment system that frees individuals from the traditional financial system, is it so bad that the founders get enriched?

If you truly do believe that everyone is going to use Ripple and that XRPs are going to skyrocket in value, nothing is stopping you from participating - you can buy XRP in bulk right now from Bitstamp (that's what I've done). Seems pretty fair to me.

It's how they would be getting rich not if.

[flound1129]

So the consensus is that investing in xrp is a bad idea - then don't.
It has nothing to do with using ripple - you just need 300xrp to make hundreds of thousands of transactions in whatever currency you choose, including bitcoin. You just need to trust the gateway you use.
xrp is a bad investment by design. you only need a trivial amount of xrp to use ripple.
You don't need to invest in xrp to use ripple.

This doesn't change the fact that Ripple is nothing more than a vehicle to make the founders millions of dollars.

How? xrp are clearly worthless, so how will they become millionaires?

XRP are worthless, yet the stated purpose of them is as an anti-spam measure.  For them to work as an anti-spam measure, by definition, they must have value.  So which is it?  Are they worthless or are they an anti-spam measure?

Give me your ripple address and I'll send 300 for free - enough for a lifetime of use. It's a waste of my time but worth it to make a point.

If you have enough XRP that you can give away 300 just to prove a point, seems like you would stand to make quite a bit if XRP succeeds.