Both Bitcoin-24 and Mtgox having problems in the EU

[EuroTrash]

What happened is that someone bought bitcoins in the bitcoin-24 exchange with stolen bank accounts, using the e-banking transfers, in Deutsche Bank I think, and someone must have initiated a lawsuit, probably the hacked account owners.

If I read correctly his incoherent ramblings in German (well fair enough, I bet he's having the worst time of his life), the problem was that Commerzbank noticed that he was doing too many transactions with cash - mostly taking out cash - so they alerted the financial police whatever.

Not 100% sure he is in the clear but I remember that he also offered a "withdrawal" service where he sends you cash in a post parcel.

Now I like to examine a fact from both sides, so let me try to wear the much hated government's hat for a moment.
No account verification needed, withdrawal/deposit with no limits, withdrawal of cash per post... that kinda qualifies as an open door to money laundering, doesn't it?

[antimattercrusader]

Oh ok. But why the fuck raid his home? Can't they just ask for info from him since it is clear that he shouldn't be held suspect in this case.

I think we're being f*cked for real here, if they start a crackdown like this on the exchanges stating things like terrorism and money laundering. We don't stand a chance if someone doesn't go forward and talks with the governments like grown-ups. Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

The exchanges should open bank accounts in countries outside of the EU. Europe needs money.

We should crowdfund and open an exchange in some tax haven country and have the possibility to deposit by sending cash. That way they can't touch us.

Fucking. This.

But, which tax haven country is good for this? And what controls are there in place for sending money there for Europeans?

EDIT: Sending wires.

[Xendrios]

Oh ok. But why the fuck raid his home? Can't they just ask for info from him since it is clear that he shouldn't be held suspect in this case.

I think we're being f*cked for real here, if they start a crackdown like this on the exchanges stating things like terrorism and money laundering. We don't stand a chance if someone doesn't go forward and talks with the governments like grown-ups. Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

The exchanges should open bank accounts in countries outside of the EU. Europe needs money.

We should crowdfund and open an exchange in some tax haven country and have the possibility to deposit by sending cash. That way they can't touch us.

I'm currently incorporating in Seychelles, working on a website to sell / buy bitcoins OTC but online. Only problem I have with opening an exchange is the legal aspect... Does accepting deposits fall under 'Banking'? Probably takes a whole lot of money (lawyers) to investigate what's permitted in those countries. I've yet to decide on where to open the bank account. Swiss seems tempting because of it being in the SEPA zone and being outside the EU. What we definatly need is an open source exchange code so anyone willing to take the (legal) risk can bring one online. Might be a good idea for the bitcoin foundation to organise.

[qwk]

I don't understand what the accusation is? They must have an accusation and proof to raid someones home. Is it fraud, money laundering or financing terrorism? If it's the first one then it's nothing. But the other two means something big is about to happen.

These documents state it quite clearly:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Beschluss%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Einspruch%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/beschluss_durchsuchung_geschwaerzt.pdf

1.) his bank account in Poland is closed for suspicion of money laundering. Don't be mislead by the "terrorism" wording in there, it's just a law that covers money laundering which was probably altered somewhat after 9/11. They may block his bank account for up to 3 months. This is just the maximum time they may take to gather evidence, it does not necessarily mean that the account will be closed that long.

2.) is his lawyer's objection to that.

3.) is something like a search warrant for his home / office in Germany. The accusation is fraud. In this case, the police will usually confiscate / seize his computer and probably any written documents which seem to have anything to do with bit coin-24. It can take years to get those things back.

[antimattercrusader]

Who is John Galt?

[Brushan]

Oh ok. But why the fuck raid his home? Can't they just ask for info from him since it is clear that he shouldn't be held suspect in this case.

I think we're being f*cked for real here, if they start a crackdown like this on the exchanges stating things like terrorism and money laundering. We don't stand a chance if someone doesn't go forward and talks with the governments like grown-ups. Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

The exchanges should open bank accounts in countries outside of the EU. Europe needs money.

We should crowdfund and open an exchange in some tax haven country and have the possibility to deposit by sending cash. That way they can't touch us.

I'm currently incorporating in Seychelles, working on a website to sell / buy bitcoins OTC but online. Only problem I have with opening an exchange is the legal aspect... Does accepting deposits fall under 'Banking'? Probably takes a whole lot of money (lawyers) to investigate what's permitted in those countries. I've yet to decide on where to open the bank account. Swiss seems tempting because of it being in the SEPA zone and being outside the EU. What we definatly need is an open source exchange code so anyone willing to take the (legal) risk can bring one online. Might be a good idea for the bitcoin foundation to organise.

Good idea. The Bitcoin community has alot of bright heads and if we work together we can do wonders. I was thinking that we could start a company and sell shares to bring up enough money to make this possible. If some highly respected members of this community held this project it could really take of. As for laws and countries where this is possible.. someone here must know alot more than me. I don't know about Swiss though. I've heard that their banks have started to cooperate with EU lately.

[paraipan]

Who is John Galt?

We are!



Hope bit-24 guy keeps us updated with the progress.

[hackstutz]

just start to actually USE bitcoin.
pay with it, accept it.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

Bitcoin has no a foundation. There is a company called Bitcoin Foundation but they do their own business. They care only about their own money.

[antimattercrusader]

Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

Bitcoin has no a foundation. There is a company called Bitcoin Foundation but they do their own business. They care only about their own money.

This is true, and it seems they're in support of regulation of bitcoin markets. I suppose regulation is better than non-existence, but I am not sure if that is what they were going for when speaking.

[michaelGedi]

it needs to be discussed here:

http://www.bitcoin2013.com/

[Brushan]

it needs to be discussed here:

http://www.bitcoin2013.com/

Why the charge of 300 bucks? Where are the money going?

[600watt]

Bitcoin-24 have had both their bank accounts frozen since last week due to investigations by the German police, and are currently shut down. It seems like European withdrawals/transfers to/from Mtgox have also frozen over the past weeks (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179586.new).

There is already some confirmation by both BTC-24 and Mtgox that their lawyers are working together to try to solve this situation (they share the same Polish bank I believe who have frozen accounts despite little evidence). Despite little evidence for wrong doing and the best attempt of the lawyers, there is no clear sign that things will work out.

Wanted to give speculators here are heads up since as far as I know Mtgox still haven't publicly admitted to having problems with SEPA transfers, and such a new could affect the price.

my sepa transfers via the poland mt gox account went through without any problem last week and this week.

the bitcoin24 case (i am german and i have 70 btc on a bitcoin24 account):

simon is a 23 year old fellow who had the idea of creating an exchange about 12 months ago. so he did. he used a few accounts in germany and in poland at the same bank, that mtgox is using. a lot of money started to pour in. banks were getting nervous. then, march 2013 ... btc value exploding, mt gox having problems = a ton of customers started to switch to btc24. btc 24, basically a one man show couldnt handle it. things got stuck. banks were really getting nervous. informed the authorities. the authorities started to suspect simon being the head of an epic phishing attack, since there was money pouring on his accounts from all over the world and from all kinds of people. THAT MUST BE CRIME!  some idiot customers which money got stuck somewhere did not get any reply by simon about what is happening. with bitcoin on the rise like a rocket they went to the authorities claiming their money must have been stolen. THAT WAS THE EXCUSE the authorities needed to step in. blocking the accounts, search simons home and seize what they can. they think they got some big fish. major newspaper titels: young fraudster runs of with 7 million €

but: there was nothing stolen. no fraud, no scam. all the information simon gave turned out to be correct so far. nervous customers, halluzinating prosecutors, eager police officers, a kid with not the slightest understanding of public relations and all this in this incredible bitcoin storm of the second half of march.

i guess there is a reason why there is a line of mtgox users waiting to get confirmed. on btc24 there was no confirmation necessary. there is no money lost, but it will take months or years to figure it all out. especially with german prosecutors/police being involved. they know nothing but expect the worst.

[EuroTrash]

Imho Europeans aren't having many issues with buying and selling euro's, at least 2 of the European exchanges clearly have good relations with their banks.

Names or it didn't happen.

[michaelGedi]

Bitcoin-24 have had both their bank accounts frozen since last week due to investigations by the German police, and are currently shut down. It seems like European withdrawals/transfers to/from Mtgox have also frozen over the past weeks (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179586.new).

There is already some confirmation by both BTC-24 and Mtgox that their lawyers are working together to try to solve this situation (they share the same Polish bank I believe who have frozen accounts despite little evidence). Despite little evidence for wrong doing and the best attempt of the lawyers, there is no clear sign that things will work out.

Wanted to give speculators here are heads up since as far as I know Mtgox still haven't publicly admitted to having problems with SEPA transfers, and such a new could affect the price.

my sepa transfers via the poland mt gox account went through without any problem last week and this week.

the bitcoin24 case (i am german and i have 70 btc on a bitcoin24 account):

simon is a 23 year old fellow who had the idea of creating an exchange about 12 months ago. so he did. he used a few accounts in germany and in poland at the same bank, that mtgox is using. a lot of money started to pour in. banks were getting nervous. then, march 2013 ... btc value exploding, mt gox having problems = a ton of customers started to switch to btc24. btc 24, basically a one man show couldnt handle it. things got stuck. banks were really getting nervous. informed the authorities. the authorities started to suspect simon being the head of an epic phishing attack, since there was money pouring on his accounts from all over the world and from all kinds of people. THAT MUST BE CRIME!  some idiot customers which money got stuck somewhere did not get any reply by simon about what is happening. with bitcoin on the rise like a rocket they went to the authorities claiming their money must have been stolen. THAT WAS THE EXCUSE the authorities needed to step in. blocking the accounts, search simons home and seize what they can. they think they got some big fish. major newspaper titels: young fraudster runs of with 7 million €

but: there was nothing stolen. no fraud, no scam. all the information simon gave turned out to be correct so far. nervous customers, halluzinating prosecutors, eager police officers, a kid with not the slightest understanding of public relations and all this in this incredible bitcoin storm of the second half of march.

i guess there is a reason why there is a line of mtgox users waiting to get confirmed. on btc24 there was no confirmation necessary. there is no money lost, but it will take months or years to figure it all out. especially with german prosecutors/police being involved. they know nothing but expect the worst.

also, this sounds about right... considering the kids I was reading in that chat:

http://board.btc24-help.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=38&sid=d6fecdf4bffc63f3aecec3cd88ea6cf8

[wonkytonky]

Imho Europeans aren't having many issues with buying and selling euro's, at least 2 of the European exchanges clearly have good relations with their banks.

Names or it didn't happen.

bitcion central
bitcoin.de

[SAQ]

So basically he is accused of fraud by taking money in exchange of goods or services - bitcoins - but not providing the good or service.

Gee man people are so paranoid about government wanting to fuck up bitcoins. Not gone happen. Ever! Everyone from journalists to all sorts of think tanks to people who would loose - in combination - 1 billion, to their mother cat and dog etc would cry foul.

So I wish people would stop with the conspiracy theory that the government is out to get bitcoins. Not gone happen.

[dscotese]

Now I like to examine a fact from both sides, so let me try to wear the much hated government's hat for a moment.
No account verification needed, withdrawal/deposit with no limits, withdrawal of cash per post... that kinda qualifies as an open door to money laundering, doesn't it?

Any good business that respects the privacy of its customers qualifies as an open door to "money laundering".  The prevention of THEFT requires... Prevention!  (Not Catching the thief afterwards by trampling all over everyone else.)

The other "laundering" of money (tax evasion and hiding the profits from businesses that are illegal) are actually very good for economies, and the government stance against them is oppressive and destructive.

[Odalv]

Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

Bitcoin has no a foundation. There is a company called Bitcoin Foundation but they do their own business. They care only about their own money.

That is Bitcoin, everybody have to care about themself. (wild wild west)

[Edit] no goverment ... nobody will help you.

[keewee]

Imho Europeans aren't having many issues with buying and selling euro's, at least 2 of the European exchanges clearly have good relations with their banks.

Names or it didn't happen.

bitcion central
bitcoin.de

You could add VirWoX to this list. Additionally, they accept credit cards and Paypal. Fees are very high, unfortunately