Both Bitcoin-24 and Mtgox having problems in the EU

[bootlace]

Bitcoin-24 have had both their bank accounts frozen since last week due to investigations by the German police, and are currently shut down. It seems like European withdrawals/transfers to/from Mtgox have also frozen over the past weeks (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179586.new).

There is already some confirmation by both BTC-24 and Mtgox that their lawyers are working together to try to solve this situation (they share the same Polish bank I believe who have frozen accounts despite little evidence). Despite little evidence for wrong doing and the best attempt of the lawyers, there is no clear sign that things will work out.

Wanted to give speculators here are heads up since as far as I know Mtgox still haven't publicly admitted to having problems with SEPA transfers, and such a new could affect the price.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Price will go down as 18 months ago.

[SAQ]

Where did you get the confirmation from Mt Gox that their lawyers are working to solve SEPA payment issues?

[Brushan]

Bitcoin having legal problems in EU and Canada? Canada and EU thinking of taking money from depositors to save banks. Coincidence?

[JimiQ84]

We need Switzerland based exchange

[EuroTrash]

Where did you get the confirmation from Mt Gox that their lawyers are working to solve SEPA payment issues?

MtGox Twitter account FYI

[bootlace]

Where did you get the confirmation from Mt Gox that their lawyers are working to solve SEPA payment issues?

http://imgur.com/9oVLEtm

[btcmind]

You forgot Bitfloor. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some big scale operation going on behind the scenes.

[deadweasel]

You forgot Bitfloor. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some big scale operation going on behind the scenes.

it's always behind the scenes.

[bootlace]

I wouldn't be surprised if there is some big scale operation going on behind the scenes. The timing is too close, between B24 and BF.

First I thought it was just BTC24 owner's incompetence. Then I found it weird to hear Mtgox were helping out a competitor. Now that Mtgox EU withdrawals haven't gone through in weeks. Then I head Bitfloor just mysteriously shut down due to 'banking problems' . WTF is going on here..

[awakening]

Where did you get the confirmation from Mt Gox that their lawyers are working to solve SEPA payment issues?

Volatile times... If we the EU people cannot take their money from MtGox accounts will them buy bitcoins to take their money out of MtGox ? Or will affect it more in the way of the problem and the people don't being able either to put money or take it out ?
Right now I'm doubting into buying bitcoins.. It can go either way if there is a real problem with banks and MtGox in Europe.

[labestiol]

Bitcoin-Central is in a partnership with a french bank, so is not susceptible to these problems. Bitcoin.de will have a similar status soon.

[zarl]

I think we only see the start of these legal problems.
It was bad it increased to 266 so fast, too much attention.

And once these legal problems spread, price will drop fast.

[manfred]

+1

[jaime]

I think we only see the start of these legal problems.
It was bad it increased to 266 so fast, too much attention.

And once these legal problems spread, price will drop fast.

It was going to happen anyway. Our money is goin to be kidnaped, but bitcoin will survive just because of that.

[zarl]

I think we only see the start of these legal problems.
It was bad it increased to 266 so fast, too much attention.

And once these legal problems spread, price will drop fast.

It was going to happen anyway. Our money is goin to be kidnaped, but bitcoin will survive just because of that.

Yes I also think bitcoin will survive. but we are in for some legal problems, about withdrawing money.
I hope not.. but looks like it

[SaintFlow]

we have passed being ignored
we have passed being laughed at

next up: they fight us

tune in also the upcomming season: they join us

[bootlace]

This bad news comes at a bad time..just after the crash and before any real stability has been reached (40% up and down moves in last few days). At a time when the community and the outside public are looking for signs of strength to reassure them, this is not what we needed.

[BitSmile]

Simon Hausdorf updated the bitcoin-24 site with some new information, and it seems he's confident it will work again...Hope so, as I had money there.
Can anyone translate this?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Beschluss%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Einspruch%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/beschluss_durchsuchung_geschwaerzt.pdf

[antimattercrusader]

Is it impossible/difficult to wire money from the Eurozone to exchanges located outside, such as the Chinese exchange, or an American exchange?

What kind of controls are in place?

[SaintFlow]

Simon Hausdorf updated the bitcoin-24 site with some new information, and it seems he's confident it will work again...Hope so, as I had money there.
Can anyone translate this?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Beschluss%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Einspruch%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/beschluss_durchsuchung_geschwaerzt.pdf

I did have a read through all documents,
He seems accused of a mixture of froud/moneylaundering/financing terrorism and
hope that someshit will stick, basic routine I guess.
They locked the bank accounts and can do so "legally" for up to 3 months.
One of the documents describes the "schema" he allegedly used (i.e. transfering
money around and it all has to do something with this digital currency called bitcoin).
So it seems they raided him and his company "legally" and get to enjoy themself
sorting out for "evidence".
Meanwhile his layer protests in the most beautiful obscure legaltalk that warbs minds.

[Vandroiy]

Simon Hausdorf updated the bitcoin-24 site with some new information, and it seems he's confident it will work again...Hope so, as I had money there.
Can anyone translate this?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Beschluss%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Einspruch%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/beschluss_durchsuchung_geschwaerzt.pdf

The latter document reads that fraud is suspected. "The accusation is that he is neither willing nor able to obtain the internet-currency Bitcoin for his customers."

I don't really know the Bitcoin-24 situation. Doesn't look like anti-Bitcoin reasoning in there.

[SaintFlow]

Simon Hausdorf updated the bitcoin-24 site with some new information, and it seems he's confident it will work again...Hope so, as I had money there.
Can anyone translate this?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Beschluss%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Einspruch%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/beschluss_durchsuchung_geschwaerzt.pdf

The latter document reads that fraud is suspected. "The accusation is that he is neither willing nor able to obtain the internet-currency Bitcoin for his customers."

I don't really know the Bitcoin-24 situation. Doesn't look like anti-Bitcoin reasoning in there.

I read the subtext the same. Maybe someone wants to do a paypal style fraud on him? Someone bought coins and told the police he never got them?
Have I missed any public accusations?

[EuroTrash]

Simon Hausdorf updated the bitcoin-24 site with some new information, and it seems he's confident it will work again...Hope so, as I had money there.
Can anyone translate this?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Beschluss%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Einspruch%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/beschluss_durchsuchung_geschwaerzt.pdf

I only have some basic German but:

1. (April 9th) seems to be a notification from for the Polish authorities of the Polish bank account being blocked until July 8th 2013. He has 7 days to reply although I don't understand what happens after he replies.
2. (April 16th) seems to be a written reply from his lawyer, saying that his account was used to receive money in payment for virtual currency "bitcoins" from people mostly from Germany and from the company MTGOX POLAND INC.
3. (April 16th) seems to be a confirmation from the German authorities that his apartment and possessions have been searched (!)

Doesn't look good

[hackstutz]

we have passed being ignored
we have passed being laughed at

next up: they fight us

tune in also the upcomming season: they join us

+1

[adamstgBit]

Simon Hausdorf updated the bitcoin-24 site with some new information, and it seems he's confident it will work again...Hope so, as I had money there.
Can anyone translate this?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Beschluss%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Einspruch%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/beschluss_durchsuchung_geschwaerzt.pdf

The latter document reads that fraud is suspected. "The accusation is that he is neither willing nor able to obtain the internet-currency Bitcoin for his customers."

I don't really know the Bitcoin-24 situation. Doesn't look like anti-Bitcoin reasoning in there.

hmmm will be interesting to see how this develops

i would speculate that, to many users of this exchange have tried to file charge backs claiming they never got their bitcoins or their account was never credited.

now the bank thinks the exchange is  a fraud...
 

[adamstgBit]

Simon Hausdorf updated the bitcoin-24 site with some new information, and it seems he's confident it will work again...Hope so, as I had money there.
Can anyone translate this?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Beschluss%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Einspruch%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/beschluss_durchsuchung_geschwaerzt.pdf

I only have some basic German but:

1. (April 9th) seems to be a notification from for the Polish authorities of the Polish bank account being blocked until July 8th 2013. He has 7 days to reply although I don't understand what happens after he replies.
2. (April 16th) seems to be a written reply from his lawyer, saying that his account was used to receive money in payment for virtual currency "bitcoins" from people mostly from Germany and from the company MTGOX POLAND INC.
3. (April 16th) seems to be a confirmation from the German authorities that his apartment and possessions have been searched (!)

Doesn't look good

what are they looking for??? the bitcoins!?

LOL

[BitSmile]

I read the subtext the same. Maybe someone wants to do a paypal style fraud on him? Someone bought coins and told the police he never got them?
Have I missed any public accusations?

What happened is that someone bought bitcoins in the bitcoin-24 exchange with stolen bank accounts, using the e-banking transfers, in Deutsche Bank I think, and someone must have initiated a lawsuit, probably the hacked account owners.

[paraipan]

We need Switzerland based exchange

You have one in Austria, is called virwox.com

[Brushan]

I don't understand what the accusation is? They must have an accusation and proof to raid someones home. Is it fraud, money laundering or financing terrorism? If it's the first one then it's nothing. But the other two means something big is about to happen.

[adamstgBit]

The latter document reads that fraud is suspected. "The accusation is that he is neither willing nor able to obtain the internet-currency Bitcoin for his customers."

I don't really know the Bitcoin-24 situation. Doesn't look like anti-Bitcoin reasoning in there.

I read the subtext the same. Maybe someone wants to do a paypal style fraud on him? Someone bought coins and told the police he never got them?
Have I missed any public accusations?

What happened is that someone bought bitcoins in the bitcoin-24 exchange with stolen bank accounts, using the e-banking transfers, in Deutsche Bank I think, and someone must have initiated a lawsuit, probably the hacked account owners.

something similar happened to cavitrex a while back when they started taking  e-banking deposits.  cavitrex didn't give any details; all they said is that due to fraud they could no longer accept this form of deposits.

[Brushan]

The latter document reads that fraud is suspected. "The accusation is that he is neither willing nor able to obtain the internet-currency Bitcoin for his customers."

I don't really know the Bitcoin-24 situation. Doesn't look like anti-Bitcoin reasoning in there.

I read the subtext the same. Maybe someone wants to do a paypal style fraud on him? Someone bought coins and told the police he never got them?
Have I missed any public accusations?

What happened is that someone bought bitcoins in the bitcoin-24 exchange with stolen bank accounts, using the e-banking transfers, in Deutsche Bank I think, and someone must have initiated a lawsuit, probably the hacked account owners.
[/quote]

Oh ok. But why the fuck raid his home? Can't they just ask for info from him since it is clear that he shouldn't be held suspect in this case.

[antimattercrusader]

Why raid his home?

Make an example? Who knows. Because they can.

[BitSmile]

Oh ok. But why the fuck raid his home? Can't they just ask for info from him since it is clear that he shouldn't be held suspect in this case.

I think we're being f*cked for real here, if they start a crackdown like this on the exchanges stating things like terrorism and money laundering. We don't stand a chance if someone doesn't go forward and talks with the governments like grown-ups. Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

[EuroTrash]

I don't understand what the accusation is? They must have an accusation and proof to raid someones home. Is it fraud, money laundering or financing terrorism? If it's the first one then it's nothing. But the other two means something big is about to happen.

Ah well.
If I read it right, the letter apologetically explains that doing a search was the only option they have when dealing with an accusation of such a strong crime.

Like "we need to sandpaper the inside of your anus, but we say sorry first".

[Xendrios]

Oh ok. But why the fuck raid his home? Can't they just ask for info from him since it is clear that he shouldn't be held suspect in this case.

I think we're being f*cked for real here, if they start a crackdown like this on the exchanges stating things like terrorism and money laundering. We don't stand a chance if someone doesn't go forward and talks with the governments like grown-ups. Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

The exchanges should open bank accounts in countries outside of the EU. Europe needs money.

[Brushan]

Ok i feel bad for him but this isn't a big thing for Bitcoin. Just some hackers stealing accounts. The thing that makes me angry is how the police dealt with it. This is only possible because people have been raised to turn the other cheek.

[antimattercrusader]

Oh ok. But why the fuck raid his home? Can't they just ask for info from him since it is clear that he shouldn't be held suspect in this case.

I think we're being f*cked for real here, if they start a crackdown like this on the exchanges stating things like terrorism and money laundering. We don't stand a chance if someone doesn't go forward and talks with the governments like grown-ups. Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

We are going to have to expect at least some governments to throw everything they can at bitcoin. But you're right, perhaps bitcoin needs a lobby *gag.* Similar to AOPA for general aviation, someone who has some power who can represent the true nature of bitcoin. You can expect the banks with their lobby are currently or about to unleash an epic smear campaign, there needs ot be another side to the story.

What about setting up exchanges using banks in the Caymans? I don't know anything about that, but has it been considered?

Another thought, wouldn't this be a good source of revenue for one of those tiny island nations somewhere that has no other source of revenue? What about Trisan de Culhan, or is that British? What about someone in Micronesia, or hell... even Sealand, although if it became an issue they wouldn't be there long

[Brushan]

Oh ok. But why the fuck raid his home? Can't they just ask for info from him since it is clear that he shouldn't be held suspect in this case.

I think we're being f*cked for real here, if they start a crackdown like this on the exchanges stating things like terrorism and money laundering. We don't stand a chance if someone doesn't go forward and talks with the governments like grown-ups. Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

The exchanges should open bank accounts in countries outside of the EU. Europe needs money.

We should crowdfund and open an exchange in some tax haven country and have the possibility to deposit by sending cash. That way they can't touch us.

[MaGNeT]

The fact that bank assets can be frozen by a government, only pleads for Bitcoin.

Time for a P2P exchange.

[EuroTrash]

What happened is that someone bought bitcoins in the bitcoin-24 exchange with stolen bank accounts, using the e-banking transfers, in Deutsche Bank I think, and someone must have initiated a lawsuit, probably the hacked account owners.

If I read correctly his incoherent ramblings in German (well fair enough, I bet he's having the worst time of his life), the problem was that Commerzbank noticed that he was doing too many transactions with cash - mostly taking out cash - so they alerted the financial police whatever.

Not 100% sure he is in the clear but I remember that he also offered a "withdrawal" service where he sends you cash in a post parcel.

Now I like to examine a fact from both sides, so let me try to wear the much hated government's hat for a moment.
No account verification needed, withdrawal/deposit with no limits, withdrawal of cash per post... that kinda qualifies as an open door to money laundering, doesn't it?

[antimattercrusader]

Oh ok. But why the fuck raid his home? Can't they just ask for info from him since it is clear that he shouldn't be held suspect in this case.

I think we're being f*cked for real here, if they start a crackdown like this on the exchanges stating things like terrorism and money laundering. We don't stand a chance if someone doesn't go forward and talks with the governments like grown-ups. Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

The exchanges should open bank accounts in countries outside of the EU. Europe needs money.

We should crowdfund and open an exchange in some tax haven country and have the possibility to deposit by sending cash. That way they can't touch us.

Fucking. This.

But, which tax haven country is good for this? And what controls are there in place for sending money there for Europeans?

EDIT: Sending wires.

[Xendrios]

Oh ok. But why the fuck raid his home? Can't they just ask for info from him since it is clear that he shouldn't be held suspect in this case.

I think we're being f*cked for real here, if they start a crackdown like this on the exchanges stating things like terrorism and money laundering. We don't stand a chance if someone doesn't go forward and talks with the governments like grown-ups. Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

The exchanges should open bank accounts in countries outside of the EU. Europe needs money.

We should crowdfund and open an exchange in some tax haven country and have the possibility to deposit by sending cash. That way they can't touch us.

I'm currently incorporating in Seychelles, working on a website to sell / buy bitcoins OTC but online. Only problem I have with opening an exchange is the legal aspect... Does accepting deposits fall under 'Banking'? Probably takes a whole lot of money (lawyers) to investigate what's permitted in those countries. I've yet to decide on where to open the bank account. Swiss seems tempting because of it being in the SEPA zone and being outside the EU. What we definatly need is an open source exchange code so anyone willing to take the (legal) risk can bring one online. Might be a good idea for the bitcoin foundation to organise.

[qwk]

I don't understand what the accusation is? They must have an accusation and proof to raid someones home. Is it fraud, money laundering or financing terrorism? If it's the first one then it's nothing. But the other two means something big is about to happen.

These documents state it quite clearly:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Beschluss%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Einspruch%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/beschluss_durchsuchung_geschwaerzt.pdf

1.) his bank account in Poland is closed for suspicion of money laundering. Don't be mislead by the "terrorism" wording in there, it's just a law that covers money laundering which was probably altered somewhat after 9/11. They may block his bank account for up to 3 months. This is just the maximum time they may take to gather evidence, it does not necessarily mean that the account will be closed that long.

2.) is his lawyer's objection to that.

3.) is something like a search warrant for his home / office in Germany. The accusation is fraud. In this case, the police will usually confiscate / seize his computer and probably any written documents which seem to have anything to do with bit coin-24. It can take years to get those things back.

[antimattercrusader]

Who is John Galt?

[Brushan]

Oh ok. But why the fuck raid his home? Can't they just ask for info from him since it is clear that he shouldn't be held suspect in this case.

I think we're being f*cked for real here, if they start a crackdown like this on the exchanges stating things like terrorism and money laundering. We don't stand a chance if someone doesn't go forward and talks with the governments like grown-ups. Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

The exchanges should open bank accounts in countries outside of the EU. Europe needs money.

We should crowdfund and open an exchange in some tax haven country and have the possibility to deposit by sending cash. That way they can't touch us.

I'm currently incorporating in Seychelles, working on a website to sell / buy bitcoins OTC but online. Only problem I have with opening an exchange is the legal aspect... Does accepting deposits fall under 'Banking'? Probably takes a whole lot of money (lawyers) to investigate what's permitted in those countries. I've yet to decide on where to open the bank account. Swiss seems tempting because of it being in the SEPA zone and being outside the EU. What we definatly need is an open source exchange code so anyone willing to take the (legal) risk can bring one online. Might be a good idea for the bitcoin foundation to organise.

Good idea. The Bitcoin community has alot of bright heads and if we work together we can do wonders. I was thinking that we could start a company and sell shares to bring up enough money to make this possible. If some highly respected members of this community held this project it could really take of. As for laws and countries where this is possible.. someone here must know alot more than me. I don't know about Swiss though. I've heard that their banks have started to cooperate with EU lately.

[paraipan]

Who is John Galt?

We are!



Hope bit-24 guy keeps us updated with the progress.

[hackstutz]

just start to actually USE bitcoin.
pay with it, accept it.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

Bitcoin has no a foundation. There is a company called Bitcoin Foundation but they do their own business. They care only about their own money.

[antimattercrusader]

Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

Bitcoin has no a foundation. There is a company called Bitcoin Foundation but they do their own business. They care only about their own money.

This is true, and it seems they're in support of regulation of bitcoin markets. I suppose regulation is better than non-existence, but I am not sure if that is what they were going for when speaking.

[michaelGedi]

it needs to be discussed here:

http://www.bitcoin2013.com/

[Brushan]

it needs to be discussed here:

http://www.bitcoin2013.com/

Why the charge of 300 bucks? Where are the money going?

[600watt]

Bitcoin-24 have had both their bank accounts frozen since last week due to investigations by the German police, and are currently shut down. It seems like European withdrawals/transfers to/from Mtgox have also frozen over the past weeks (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179586.new).

There is already some confirmation by both BTC-24 and Mtgox that their lawyers are working together to try to solve this situation (they share the same Polish bank I believe who have frozen accounts despite little evidence). Despite little evidence for wrong doing and the best attempt of the lawyers, there is no clear sign that things will work out.

Wanted to give speculators here are heads up since as far as I know Mtgox still haven't publicly admitted to having problems with SEPA transfers, and such a new could affect the price.

my sepa transfers via the poland mt gox account went through without any problem last week and this week.

the bitcoin24 case (i am german and i have 70 btc on a bitcoin24 account):

simon is a 23 year old fellow who had the idea of creating an exchange about 12 months ago. so he did. he used a few accounts in germany and in poland at the same bank, that mtgox is using. a lot of money started to pour in. banks were getting nervous. then, march 2013 ... btc value exploding, mt gox having problems = a ton of customers started to switch to btc24. btc 24, basically a one man show couldnt handle it. things got stuck. banks were really getting nervous. informed the authorities. the authorities started to suspect simon being the head of an epic phishing attack, since there was money pouring on his accounts from all over the world and from all kinds of people. THAT MUST BE CRIME!  some idiot customers which money got stuck somewhere did not get any reply by simon about what is happening. with bitcoin on the rise like a rocket they went to the authorities claiming their money must have been stolen. THAT WAS THE EXCUSE the authorities needed to step in. blocking the accounts, search simons home and seize what they can. they think they got some big fish. major newspaper titels: young fraudster runs of with 7 million €

but: there was nothing stolen. no fraud, no scam. all the information simon gave turned out to be correct so far. nervous customers, halluzinating prosecutors, eager police officers, a kid with not the slightest understanding of public relations and all this in this incredible bitcoin storm of the second half of march.

i guess there is a reason why there is a line of mtgox users waiting to get confirmed. on btc24 there was no confirmation necessary. there is no money lost, but it will take months or years to figure it all out. especially with german prosecutors/police being involved. they know nothing but expect the worst.

[EuroTrash]

Imho Europeans aren't having many issues with buying and selling euro's, at least 2 of the European exchanges clearly have good relations with their banks.

Names or it didn't happen.

[michaelGedi]

Bitcoin-24 have had both their bank accounts frozen since last week due to investigations by the German police, and are currently shut down. It seems like European withdrawals/transfers to/from Mtgox have also frozen over the past weeks (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179586.new).

There is already some confirmation by both BTC-24 and Mtgox that their lawyers are working together to try to solve this situation (they share the same Polish bank I believe who have frozen accounts despite little evidence). Despite little evidence for wrong doing and the best attempt of the lawyers, there is no clear sign that things will work out.

Wanted to give speculators here are heads up since as far as I know Mtgox still haven't publicly admitted to having problems with SEPA transfers, and such a new could affect the price.

my sepa transfers via the poland mt gox account went through without any problem last week and this week.

the bitcoin24 case (i am german and i have 70 btc on a bitcoin24 account):

simon is a 23 year old fellow who had the idea of creating an exchange about 12 months ago. so he did. he used a few accounts in germany and in poland at the same bank, that mtgox is using. a lot of money started to pour in. banks were getting nervous. then, march 2013 ... btc value exploding, mt gox having problems = a ton of customers started to switch to btc24. btc 24, basically a one man show couldnt handle it. things got stuck. banks were really getting nervous. informed the authorities. the authorities started to suspect simon being the head of an epic phishing attack, since there was money pouring on his accounts from all over the world and from all kinds of people. THAT MUST BE CRIME!  some idiot customers which money got stuck somewhere did not get any reply by simon about what is happening. with bitcoin on the rise like a rocket they went to the authorities claiming their money must have been stolen. THAT WAS THE EXCUSE the authorities needed to step in. blocking the accounts, search simons home and seize what they can. they think they got some big fish. major newspaper titels: young fraudster runs of with 7 million €

but: there was nothing stolen. no fraud, no scam. all the information simon gave turned out to be correct so far. nervous customers, halluzinating prosecutors, eager police officers, a kid with not the slightest understanding of public relations and all this in this incredible bitcoin storm of the second half of march.

i guess there is a reason why there is a line of mtgox users waiting to get confirmed. on btc24 there was no confirmation necessary. there is no money lost, but it will take months or years to figure it all out. especially with german prosecutors/police being involved. they know nothing but expect the worst.

also, this sounds about right... considering the kids I was reading in that chat:

http://board.btc24-help.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=38&sid=d6fecdf4bffc63f3aecec3cd88ea6cf8

[wonkytonky]

Imho Europeans aren't having many issues with buying and selling euro's, at least 2 of the European exchanges clearly have good relations with their banks.

Names or it didn't happen.

bitcion central
bitcoin.de

[SAQ]

So basically he is accused of fraud by taking money in exchange of goods or services - bitcoins - but not providing the good or service.

Gee man people are so paranoid about government wanting to fuck up bitcoins. Not gone happen. Ever! Everyone from journalists to all sorts of think tanks to people who would loose - in combination - 1 billion, to their mother cat and dog etc would cry foul.

So I wish people would stop with the conspiracy theory that the government is out to get bitcoins. Not gone happen.

[dscotese]

Now I like to examine a fact from both sides, so let me try to wear the much hated government's hat for a moment.
No account verification needed, withdrawal/deposit with no limits, withdrawal of cash per post... that kinda qualifies as an open door to money laundering, doesn't it?

Any good business that respects the privacy of its customers qualifies as an open door to "money laundering".  The prevention of THEFT requires... Prevention!  (Not Catching the thief afterwards by trampling all over everyone else.)

The other "laundering" of money (tax evasion and hiding the profits from businesses that are illegal) are actually very good for economies, and the government stance against them is oppressive and destructive.

[Odalv]

Doesn't Bitcoin have a Foundation? Can't they speak against this kind of thing?

Bitcoin has no a foundation. There is a company called Bitcoin Foundation but they do their own business. They care only about their own money.

That is Bitcoin, everybody have to care about themself. (wild wild west)

[Edit] no goverment ... nobody will help you.

[keewee]

Imho Europeans aren't having many issues with buying and selling euro's, at least 2 of the European exchanges clearly have good relations with their banks.

Names or it didn't happen.

bitcion central
bitcoin.de

You could add VirWoX to this list. Additionally, they accept credit cards and Paypal. Fees are very high, unfortunately

[hobbes]

Bitcoin-24 have had both their bank accounts frozen since last week due to investigations by the German police, and are currently shut down. It seems like European withdrawals/transfers to/from Mtgox have also frozen over the past weeks (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179586.new).

There is already some confirmation by both BTC-24 and Mtgox that their lawyers are working together to try to solve this situation (they share the same Polish bank I believe who have frozen accounts despite little evidence). Despite little evidence for wrong doing and the best attempt of the lawyers, there is no clear sign that things will work out.

Wanted to give speculators here are heads up since as far as I know Mtgox still haven't publicly admitted to having problems with SEPA transfers, and such a new could affect the price.

my sepa transfers via the poland mt gox account went through without any problem last week and this week.

the bitcoin24 case (i am german and i have 70 btc on a bitcoin24 account):

simon is a 23 year old fellow who had the idea of creating an exchange about 12 months ago. so he did. he used a few accounts in germany and in poland at the same bank, that mtgox is using. a lot of money started to pour in. banks were getting nervous. then, march 2013 ... btc value exploding, mt gox having problems = a ton of customers started to switch to btc24. btc 24, basically a one man show couldnt handle it. things got stuck. banks were really getting nervous. informed the authorities. the authorities started to suspect simon being the head of an epic phishing attack, since there was money pouring on his accounts from all over the world and from all kinds of people. THAT MUST BE CRIME!  some idiot customers which money got stuck somewhere did not get any reply by simon about what is happening. with bitcoin on the rise like a rocket they went to the authorities claiming their money must have been stolen. THAT WAS THE EXCUSE the authorities needed to step in. blocking the accounts, search simons home and seize what they can. they think they got some big fish. major newspaper titels: young fraudster runs of with 7 million €

but: there was nothing stolen. no fraud, no scam. all the information simon gave turned out to be correct so far. nervous customers, halluzinating prosecutors, eager police officers, a kid with not the slightest understanding of public relations and all this in this incredible bitcoin storm of the second half of march.

i guess there is a reason why there is a line of mtgox users waiting to get confirmed. on btc24 there was no confirmation necessary. there is no money lost, but it will take months or years to figure it all out. especially with german prosecutors/police being involved. they know nothing but expect the worst.

good summary.

From the first document: "fishing attacs" by SH - ridiculous

[pedro82]

Can any one explain me what is prevent  Simon to start to refund our BTC balance ? 

[Hfertig]

I would like to add my two satoshi´s to this, as I do have a good understanding of the German regulatory environment.

Not sure if everybody knows that Bitcoin has been declared as a financial instrument in Germany by Bafin (German regulator).
This means that everyone who provides a commercial platform to trade bitcoins needs Bafin approval before doing so.

I would be very surprised if he had this license, especially as it seems that he was running the thing by himself.

Not having this license would be a breach against money laundering legislation and would result in a shutdown of the operation. I guess that is what happened....

[Hfertig]

sure, below is the bafin statement... not sure if you can read German

http://www.bafin.de/SharedDocs/Veroeffentlichungen/DE/Merkblatt/mb_111222_zag.html

here the important parts...

Als Zahlungsmittel bestimmte Werteinheiten, die in Barter-Clubs, privaten Tauschringen oder anderen Zahlungssystemen gegen realwirtschaftliche Leistungen, Warenlieferungen oder Dienstleistungen geschöpft oder wie z.B. die Bitcoins gegenleistungslos in Computernetzwerken erschaffen werden...

and

Erlaubnisfrei sind insoweit jedoch nur die Schaffung derartiger Werteinheiten und ihr Einsatz als Zahlungsmittel. Wenn unterdessen diese Werteinheiten ihrerseits selbst zum Handelsgegenstand werden, ist das Geschäft je nach seiner Ausgestaltung als Bankgeschäft nach § 1 Abs. 1 Satz 2 Nrn. 4 oder 10 KWG oder Finanzdienstleistung nach § 1 Abs. 1a Satz 2 Nrn. 1 - 4 KWG zu qualifizieren und steht nach § 32 Abs. 1 KWG grundsätzlich unter Erlaubnisvorbehalt. Diese Werteinheiten sind Rechnungseinheiten und fallen als solche ohne weiteres unter die Finanzinstrumente im Sinne von § 1 Abs. 11 KWG.

[TimJBenham]

Canada ...thinking of taking money from depositors to save banks.

BS.

[Nagan]

Bitcoin-24 have had both their bank accounts frozen since last week due to investigations by the German police, and are currently shut down. It seems like European withdrawals/transfers to/from Mtgox have also frozen over the past weeks (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179586.new).

There is already some confirmation by both BTC-24 and Mtgox that their lawyers are working together to try to solve this situation (they share the same Polish bank I believe who have frozen accounts despite little evidence). Despite little evidence for wrong doing and the best attempt of the lawyers, there is no clear sign that things will work out.

Wanted to give speculators here are heads up since as far as I know Mtgox still haven't publicly admitted to having problems with SEPA transfers, and such a new could affect the price.

my sepa transfers via the poland mt gox account went through without any problem last week and this week.

the bitcoin24 case (i am german and i have 70 btc on a bitcoin24 account):

simon is a 23 year old fellow who had the idea of creating an exchange about 12 months ago. so he did. he used a few accounts in germany and in poland at the same bank, that mtgox is using. a lot of money started to pour in. banks were getting nervous. then, march 2013 ... btc value exploding, mt gox having problems = a ton of customers started to switch to btc24. btc 24, basically a one man show couldnt handle it. things got stuck. banks were really getting nervous. informed the authorities. the authorities started to suspect simon being the head of an epic phishing attack, since there was money pouring on his accounts from all over the world and from all kinds of people. THAT MUST BE CRIME!  some idiot customers which money got stuck somewhere did not get any reply by simon about what is happening. with bitcoin on the rise like a rocket they went to the authorities claiming their money must have been stolen. THAT WAS THE EXCUSE the authorities needed to step in. blocking the accounts, search simons home and seize what they can. they think they got some big fish. major newspaper titels: young fraudster runs of with 7 million €

but: there was nothing stolen. no fraud, no scam. all the information simon gave turned out to be correct so far. nervous customers, halluzinating prosecutors, eager police officers, a kid with not the slightest understanding of public relations and all this in this incredible bitcoin storm of the second half of march.

i guess there is a reason why there is a line of mtgox users waiting to get confirmed. on btc24 there was no confirmation necessary. there is no money lost, but it will take months or years to figure it all out. especially with german prosecutors/police being involved. they know nothing but expect the worst.

So that's the thing. Money is  suddenly pouring out through the bank accounts - sure it's a "fraud". Same with Gox, suddenly tens of thousands users rushing to cash out. Some of them are indeed money lounderers and other shady types. Bitcoin attracts slum too, and authorities are required to step in sometimes. Maybe not in this case, just better earlier and easier, than late and ruthlessly.

[pajak666]

my sepa transfers via the poland mt gox account went through without any problem last week and this week.

You deposited or made a withdrawal? I am waiting for withdrawal to my polish bank account since 11th of april.

[AmunRa]

Soo...today i got "noticed" by the bank authorities here in Canada...let me explain..i am a very ..very small trader and i use mainly email interac for receiving funds..well even at this low level of money flowing (few thousands ..) my account is now frozen due to ..you guessed it "fraud suspicion" ..i kept all my trading correspondence and i m meeting the bank ( i wont name the bank yet) manager tomorrow and we will have a chat with the card security department.It looks like things are getting interesting! I will keep you posted on the outcome..I hope is a minor thing but if not...oh well ..i very curious to see their proof

[johnyj]

It's a joke, central banks are doing money laundering everyday (create money out of nothing is obviously the most illicit way to get money), and they don't allow others to do it ... 

[pajak666]

If on 9 th of april their polish account was frozen, then why the hell they let me to make a withdrawal on 11 th of april?!?
that  looks really bad:/

[BitSmile]

The tin foil hats guys were right...we're being screwed behind the scenes. Or maybe it's just here in Europe, the police is trying to be more American than in the U.S.A.

[MegaBrutal]

It took ~2 weeks to receive my SEPA withdrawal from Mt.Gox on my bank account. But eventually I did receive it: just got the SMS from my bank few minutes ago.

I've seen some paranoid customers worrying that Mt.Gox is stealing their money: no, they don't, they're just having massive lags!

[inbox]

.

[jerkoff]

There are many laws in most european countries regarding financial services, banking, investment advice, anti-money laundering rules, lots of regulations to observe.

There's a reason why so many Forex brokers are located in Cyprus, Malta, Jersey (islands, not USA), lax rules and bribing opportunity.

Just because you're young, run Linux, know php and want to do something means that you can just ignore all regulations. It doesn't impress the authorities if you build things like banks and trading platforms and start taking and paying money from all over the world, they'll be on your ass as soon as they find out about it.

[Ichthyo]

I think the German regulation is quite indicative to the way the legal system treats such matters.

Thus I'll try a bit more free worded, but precise translation:

Als Zahlungsmittel bestimmte Werteinheiten, die in Barter-Clubs, privaten Tauschringen oder anderen Zahlungssystemen gegen realwirtschaftliche Leistungen, Warenlieferungen oder Dienstleistungen geschöpft oder wie z.B. die Bitcoins gegenleistungslos in Computernetzwerken erschaffen werden...

[this regulation is applicable to....]
value units intended to be used for payments, more specifically such value units, which are drawn in barter clubs, private exchange rings or payment systems in exchange to real economic benefits, goods or services. But also applicable to value units, e.g. Bitcoins, which are created in computer networks without any real economic counter value.

Erlaubnisfrei sind insoweit jedoch nur die Schaffung derartiger Werteinheiten und ihr Einsatz als Zahlungsmittel. Wenn unterdessen diese Werteinheiten ihrerseits selbst zum Handelsgegenstand werden, ist das Geschäft je nach seiner Ausgestaltung als Bankgeschäft nach § 1 Abs. 1 Satz 2 Nrn. 4 oder 10 KWG oder Finanzdienstleistung nach § 1 Abs. 1a Satz 2 Nrn. 1 - 4 KWG zu qualifizieren und steht nach § 32 Abs. 1 KWG grundsätzlich unter Erlaubnisvorbehalt. Diese Werteinheiten sind Rechnungseinheiten und fallen als solche ohne weiteres unter die Finanzinstrumente im Sinne von § 1 Abs. 11 KWG.

There is allowance for everyone, without prior permit, to create such units of value, and to use them for payments.
But, in case these units of value themselves become the the object of trade, then the business doing those transactions is (based on the circumstances) classified either as banking business, or as financial service. Such business does by principle need a prior official permission. The reason is: such units of value are classifiable as accounting units and as such they are automatically classified as financial instruments.


In practice, given such a regulation, the situation is as follows: As long as you don't to anything large scale, your activities can be overlooked generously. Basically, a small fish is at mercy of the authorities noticing him. But as soon as you start more serious business activities and have not applied for the necessary permit prior to starting any activities, you're automatically suspicious.

And the additional catch is: trying to get the necessary permit requires you to build and present quite some infrastructure, which typically requires you to run a business which can afford to let several employees work solely for creating this infrastructure. At least here in Germany it is definitively this way for any banking business. Financial services have lower requirements, but also more serious limitations.

[Paul89273]

Thanks for translating and posting that Ichthyo! Some excellent info in there!