Bitcoin Forum
December 03, 2016, 03:52:27 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Is bitcoin legal? Not according to U.S. government  (Read 6535 times)
freeto
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14


View Profile
June 16, 2011, 11:56:58 PM
 #21



Article I, section 8, clause 5 of the United States Constitution delegates to Congress the power to coin money and to regulate the value thereof. This power was delegated to Congress in order to establish and preserve a uniform standard of value and to insure a singular monetary system for all purchases and debts in the United States, public and private. Along with the power to coin money, Congress has the concurrent power to restrain the circulation of money which is not issued under its own authority in order to protect and preserve the constitutional currency for the benefit of all citizens of the nation. It is a violation of federal law for individuals, such as von NotHaus, or organizations, such as NORFED, to create private coin or currency systems to compete with the official coinage and currency of the United States.


This is a specific referrence to the power to create legal tender.  Bitcoin isn't legal tender anywhere in the world, and the legal right to create a private currency within the United States is well established provided that it could not rationally be confused with legal tender.  The Ithica Hour is a wonderful example.

I'll check that out. Thanks!
1480780347
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480780347

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480780347
Reply with quote  #2

1480780347
Report to moderator
1480780347
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480780347

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480780347
Reply with quote  #2

1480780347
Report to moderator
The forum was founded in 2009 by Satoshi and Sirius. It replaced a SourceForge forum.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1480780347
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480780347

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480780347
Reply with quote  #2

1480780347
Report to moderator
tehcodez
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42


View Profile
June 17, 2011, 12:02:58 AM
 #22

What are Disney Dollars?
 
      Disney Dollars are a form of corporate scrip or tokens or currency used at Disney theme parks, the Disney Store, and at one time certain parts of Castaway Cay, the Disney cruise-line's private island. It is worth dollar for dollar.  Being backed up by real money...

-DisneyDollars.net


So n00b, what's the difference?
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1666



View Profile
June 17, 2011, 12:30:19 AM
 #23


So n00b, what's the difference?

Try not to be a dick, okay?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1666



View Profile
June 17, 2011, 12:31:39 AM
 #24

I beleive the Aust Govt wants BTC regulated so they can tax all transacions. Heard this from a mate whom works in a big bank. Dunno how they hope to acheive this!

Good luck with that!

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
tehcodez
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42


View Profile
June 17, 2011, 12:41:02 AM
 #25

Fine fine, I'll be more friendly.

OP, see references to any one of many "substitutes of money/value/transactions", like

Disney Dollars
Gift Cards
Fun Money
Fiat Currency
Monopoly Money
Poker Chips
Casino Credits
XBox Live Points
Ithica Hours
BerkShares
T-Bills
WoW Gold
Debit Cards

And ask yourself, "how many of these have been ruled illegal, and their creators cast into mythical dungeons," and "how does bitcoin differ from these," and "do I Wikipedia objectively?"

Well, Walt Disney maybe in some kinky dungeon, but it was his choice.
Joker007
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14


View Profile
June 17, 2011, 12:51:18 AM
 #26

Did you know that Federal Reserve is technically illegal according to the constitution?

Gov doesn't care anymore and they want more power so they can gain more control over the people. Bitcoin is a step to right direction, just what American forefathers wanted. They want sovereign people to deal with their own situation without the gov. They want decentralized America but it couldn't happen because of the Britain Imperialistic tried to take over America with their schemes. Thus they implement constitution to prevent from tyrannies. Tyrannies are running the world, like we're witnessing today.

Before the revolution begun...
Did you know South Carolina used rice as money?
Did you know Virginia used tobacco as money?
Did you know north use fish/corn as money for the Indians?

They all use some form of commodity and find what's the best for themselves and others. Bitcoin does this as well which is why I support it because it does not rely on the gov nor central bankers. It simply eliminates them.

Internet is anarcho-capitalism, to be noted for anybody who doesn't know this.






Will work for bitcoins, will sell art for bitcoins.
Feeling generous?  1HjrPLDL97UEZCPbWZ9y6uBG4XBiaCuEzt
Lolercaust
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3


View Profile
June 17, 2011, 12:54:10 AM
 #27

It's already been stated multiple times here, but there are far too many "acceptable" examples of currency substitutes being employed by various parties in the US.  The US Government finds fault only with the Bitcoin because it is often used in underground trades for black market merchandise.

I will forecast that, although they will try to shut down .onion sites such as The Silk Road (which might've already been accomplished, given the look of it), they won't attempt to touch the Bitcoin.
Fizzgig
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 17, 2011, 01:07:46 AM
 #28

Something to consider...unless you have an Austrian (real) economic background, you may just think bitcoin will fail or is not a threat. You won't see it as the most magnificently beautiful and elegant monetary solution man has seen thus far. So even though the CIA was given a presented about bitcoin, they probably won't understand the full potential. People in general won't understand the potential either. People will probably come out with conspiracy theories claiming the bitcoin technology was handed down by aliens to save humanity. I guess my point is that most people today can't think rationally, so bitcoin should have some time before governments start going hysterical.

Best Bitcoin supported browser game:
Minethings: Dig, Trade, and Fight your way to influence!
Yatta99
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


I need an new box...


View Profile
June 17, 2011, 01:08:21 AM
 #29

it will be years before the U.S. government will even understand how bitcoin works.

Understanding by the government is not a requirement. Congress has been passing laws for decades on things they know little/nothing about  Undecided

Tips for new box to: 16s14wcsNo5TcdsGLttL7B1XWiCv8E4L6A
Slab Squathrust
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 171


View Profile
June 17, 2011, 01:16:15 AM
 #30

it will be years before the U.S. government will even understand how bitcoin works.

Understanding by the government is not a requirement. Congress has been passing laws for decades on things they know little/nothing about  Undecided

Hahah, try working in the scientific fields and seeing congress having debates on issues such as cloning.  The lack of understanding or even desire to understand is pathetic.
Timo Y
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 938


bitcoin - the aerogel of money


View Profile
June 17, 2011, 01:20:24 AM
 #31

Technically, and legally, bitcoin is a commodity, not a currency.  Also, bitcoins aren't really "coined" by anyone, not even virtually. They are discovered.


GPG ID: FA868D77   bitcoin-otc:forever-d
freeto
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14


View Profile
June 17, 2011, 01:33:44 AM
 #32

What are Disney Dollars?
 
      Disney Dollars are a form of corporate scrip or tokens or currency used at Disney theme parks, the Disney Store, and at one time certain parts of Castaway Cay, the Disney cruise-line's private island. It is worth dollar for dollar.  Being backed up by real money...

-DisneyDollars.net


So n00b, what's the difference?

The differences are many.  There's no discoin/usd exchange, people aren't creating Disney coins to literally make money.  People don't speculate in Disney coins (except maybe you) and they don't buy things on the internet with them to name a few.   signed the n00b.
freeto
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14


View Profile
June 17, 2011, 01:36:12 AM
 #33

Something to consider...unless you have an Austrian (real) economic background, you may just think bitcoin will fail or is not a threat. You won't see it as the most magnificently beautiful and elegant monetary solution man has seen thus far. So even though the CIA was given a presented about bitcoin, they probably won't understand the full potential. People in general won't understand the potential either. People will probably come out with conspiracy theories claiming the bitcoin technology was handed down by aliens to save humanity. I guess my point is that most people today can't think rationally, so bitcoin should have some time before governments start going hysterical.

Exactly what I am thinking.  Well said.
freeto
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14


View Profile
June 17, 2011, 01:40:13 AM
 #34

It's already been stated multiple times here, but there are far too many "acceptable" examples of currency substitutes being employed by various parties in the US.  The US Government finds fault only with the Bitcoin because it is often used in underground trades for black market merchandise.

I will forecast that, although they will try to shut down .onion sites such as The Silk Road (which might've already been accomplished, given the look of it), they won't attempt to touch the Bitcoin.

I think you're wrong. I think  Bitcoin is the real deal, and it will be a big concern to them, and they will attempt to "touch it" if not more.
econatty
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3



View Profile
June 17, 2011, 01:45:12 AM
 #35

bitcoins are a Japanese currency, therefore, not illegal in America.

Online poker is not illegal in America either and is legal in many countries the online operators are based.  The government decided to shut that industry down and did it by attacking the payment processor and shutting the early payment sites like neteller down to US customers.  Do not make the mistake of thinking that the BitCoin is too far out of the US government reach.  
freeto
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14


View Profile
June 17, 2011, 02:04:48 AM
 #36

Fine fine, I'll be more friendly.

OP, see references to any one of many "substitutes of money/value/transactions", like

Disney Dollars
Gift Cards
Fun Money
Fiat Currency
Monopoly Money
Poker Chips
Casino Credits
XBox Live Points
Ithica Hours
BerkShares
T-Bills
WoW Gold
Debit Cards

And ask yourself, "how many of these have been ruled illegal, and their creators cast into mythical dungeons," and "how does bitcoin differ from these," and "do I Wikipedia objectively?"

Well, Walt Disney maybe in some kinky dungeon, but it was his choice.

There are major differences between all these things and bitcoin.  Even if there wasn't, it wouldn't matter.  If the Feds perceive bitcoin as a threat they will come after it.  All they need is the facade of legality and the Federal courts will back them up.  You can make arguments until you howl at the moon, and they might be good ones too, but it won't matter.  Unless you have a really good lawyer, political connections and a sizable amount of public opinion on your side forget it.  Maybe you could get a really, really good lawyer like Tom Cryer but that's about it.  You would need a jury trial though because they would put the screws on the Federal judge that would hear the case and he would not be impartial to say the least.
freeto
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14


View Profile
June 17, 2011, 02:10:31 AM
 #37

Technically, and legally, bitcoin is a commodity, not a currency.  Also, bitcoins aren't really "coined" by anyone, not even virtually. They are discovered.




Good arguments.  Some power there I think, but that's not how it's being presented to the public.  I listened to the bitcoin video very carefully.
janedoe
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 6


View Profile
June 17, 2011, 02:44:54 AM
 #38

Aren't bitcoins completely virtual? 
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1666



View Profile
June 17, 2011, 02:58:27 AM
 #39

Aren't bitcoins completely virtual? 

So are X-box live points and WoW gold.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
muc
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42



View Profile WWW
June 17, 2011, 04:16:25 AM
 #40

Don't get me wrong, I'm very excited about bitcoin, but I think the Feds are not going to be happy.  If somebody there is knowledgable about this, and thinks I'm wrong let me know.  If they'll lock a guy up for making silver coins, I don't think they're going to be very accomodating to bitcoin. The Feds move slow, but when they move watch out!  Can bitcoin survive regardless?  I hope so. 


http://investmentwatchblog.com/nc-man-convicted-for-making-selling-own-silver-coins/

Article I, section 8, clause 5 of the United States Constitution delegates to Congress the power to coin money and to regulate the value thereof. This power was delegated to Congress in order to establish and preserve a uniform standard of value and to insure a singular monetary system for all purchases and debts in the United States, public and private. Along with the power to coin money, Congress has the concurrent power to restrain the circulation of money which is not issued under its own authority in order to protect and preserve the constitutional currency for the benefit of all citizens of the nation. It is a violation of federal law for individuals, such as von NotHaus, or organizations, such as NORFED, to create private coin or currency systems to compete with the official coinage and currency of the United States.




but then again, technically speaking, bitcoin is not money

it really isn't a currency either (typically currencies inflate and constantly lose value over time)

it's more of a digital commodity

my opinion

http://bitcoin.co.cc/r1/banner.jpg

MUC: http://muc.cz.cc/
Bartender: http://bartender.muc.cz.cc/
Tradehill Referral: http://tradehill.muc.cz.cc/
To put a tip in my tip jar: 1sqk3a4hEADp7WSq1vnxUSZcndfEtpcGq
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!