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Author Topic: Is bitcoin legal? Not according to U.S. government  (Read 6537 times)
freeto
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June 16, 2011, 10:43:57 PM
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Don't get me wrong, I'm very excited about bitcoin, but I think the Feds are not going to be happy.  If somebody there is knowledgable about this, and thinks I'm wrong let me know.  If they'll lock a guy up for making silver coins, I don't think they're going to be very accomodating to bitcoin. The Feds move slow, but when they move watch out!  Can bitcoin survive regardless?  I hope so. 


http://investmentwatchblog.com/nc-man-convicted-for-making-selling-own-silver-coins/

Article I, section 8, clause 5 of the United States Constitution delegates to Congress the power to coin money and to regulate the value thereof. This power was delegated to Congress in order to establish and preserve a uniform standard of value and to insure a singular monetary system for all purchases and debts in the United States, public and private. Along with the power to coin money, Congress has the concurrent power to restrain the circulation of money which is not issued under its own authority in order to protect and preserve the constitutional currency for the benefit of all citizens of the nation. It is a violation of federal law for individuals, such as von NotHaus, or organizations, such as NORFED, to create private coin or currency systems to compete with the official coinage and currency of the United States.

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InstaGx
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June 16, 2011, 10:48:49 PM
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It's not really competing with the USD. According to that article the US Conqress might be allowed to ban the use of bitcoin in the US. But it obviously didn't happen yet.

Buy High - Sell Low
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June 16, 2011, 10:54:31 PM
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Another thing is how hard it ca be to track down someone using it. It would be like downloading movies : It's illegal, but they won't come out to every house to check the computers, as long as you keep this to yourself, nothing will happen.
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June 16, 2011, 10:57:06 PM
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I think that guy got into trouble for selling his coins as coins and not as a store of value.  After all, there are many private mints making silver coins and selling them as silver.  I think the argument for bitcoin is that it can be traded as a store of value like a silver or gold bar.  Corporations like microsoft don't get in trouble for their online "currencies" such as MS points.  The NC man was passing off his coins as real and inserting them into circulation with legitimate US currency.  

However we should be somewhat concerned.  Chuck Schumer has been a vocal critic of bitcoin because it can be used to purchase drugs.  Apparently the US dollar has no purchasing power to druggies...
freeto
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June 16, 2011, 11:02:20 PM
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No, Nothing's happened yet, but it might in the future.  I'm not worried about myself, but it will effect the viability of bitcoins and their marketability.  The Feds love to let these type of things roll along, let people get invested, and then shut em down.  They might not be able to stop bitcoin, but they will be able to shut down websites if they want to, which could make things very difficult I think.  Another thing don't think the Feds won't consider this a threat, all they've got is their money. Without it they're toast. 
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June 16, 2011, 11:03:11 PM
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bitcoins are a Japanese currency, therefore, not illegal in America.

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freeto
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June 16, 2011, 11:07:12 PM
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bitcoins are a Japanese currency, therefore, not illegal in America.
  Yeah, I'm sure that will convince them!
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June 16, 2011, 11:08:54 PM
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To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

While it is true that the US is regulating the value of foreign "coin". They do not have the jurisdiction to regulate the value of foreign "coin".

Bitcoin is not within US jurisdiction... let's be clear about that.

The US and French governments seem to think they have international jurisdiction.... but they dont!

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pointbiz
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June 16, 2011, 11:10:59 PM
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Also, the US constitution is speaking specifically about coin money aka coins made from precious metal. For more than a century banks were issuing their own currency backed by the US coinage (aka US gold coins).

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June 16, 2011, 11:14:06 PM
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by the way, if a bitcoin website's DNS is registered through namecoin, then there is no way for the US government to take it down.

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June 16, 2011, 11:17:14 PM
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it will be years before the U.S. government will even understand how bitcoin works.
MoonShadow
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June 16, 2011, 11:22:06 PM
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Article I, section 8, clause 5 of the United States Constitution delegates to Congress the power to coin money and to regulate the value thereof. This power was delegated to Congress in order to establish and preserve a uniform standard of value and to insure a singular monetary system for all purchases and debts in the United States, public and private. Along with the power to coin money, Congress has the concurrent power to restrain the circulation of money which is not issued under its own authority in order to protect and preserve the constitutional currency for the benefit of all citizens of the nation. It is a violation of federal law for individuals, such as von NotHaus, or organizations, such as NORFED, to create private coin or currency systems to compete with the official coinage and currency of the United States.


This is a specific referrence to the power to create legal tender.  Bitcoin isn't legal tender anywhere in the world, and the legal right to create a private currency within the United States is well established provided that it could not rationally be confused with legal tender.  The Ithica Hour is a wonderful example.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 16, 2011, 11:23:14 PM
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it will be years before the U.S. government will even understand how bitcoin works.

I guess you didn't hear about Bitcoin's lead developer doing a presentation about Bitcoin for the CIA, then?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 16, 2011, 11:24:25 PM
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The US and French governments seem to think they have international jurisdiction.... but they dont!

Tell that to the 36 sovereign nations the US alone has attacked or invaded since (not including) World War II without declarations of war.

Since when has jurisdiction stopped the US from doing anything it wanted, at any time it wanted, and anywhere it wanted ??

Yes, I am a US citizen.

"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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pointbiz
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June 16, 2011, 11:25:21 PM
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If the Justice Department investigates bitcoins they may discover that the Federal Reserve is in violation of the Constitution.

Remember Andrew Jackson? He warned us about such a central bank.

Who owns the Federal Reserve? Shouldn't it be public record?

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pointbiz
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June 16, 2011, 11:29:00 PM
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The US and French governments seem to think they have international jurisdiction.... but they dont!

Tell that to the 36 sovereign nations the US alone has attacked or invaded since (not including) World War II without declarations of war.

Since when has jurisdiction stopped the US from doing anything it wanted, at any time it wanted, and anywhere it wanted ??

Yes, I am a US citizen.


Jurisdiction has not stopped them since WW2... I'm still waiting for someone with the resources to file charges against the US gov.
Part of the fraud with international courts is there is no free access. If people's rights are violated they need access to a free legal counsel...

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June 16, 2011, 11:30:56 PM
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I beleive the Aust Govt wants BTC regulated so they can tax all transacions. Heard this from a mate whom works in a big bank. Dunno how they hope to acheive this!
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June 16, 2011, 11:31:08 PM
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If the Justice Department investigates bitcoins they may discover that the Federal Reserve is in violation of the Constitution.

Remember Andrew Jackson? He warned us about such a central bank.

Who owns the Federal Reserve? Shouldn't it be public record?

"Old Hickory" did much more than warn us. He actually BEAT the central banks and was the only president to pay off the national debt!

The ownership of the federal reserve is hidden, but that fact that its private is public knowledge. It simply is not advertised because those in power and those in the press and media are owned and controlled by board of director members who are part of the world central banking system, who owns the A-Stock certificates in the worlds central banks. All the same players here working for a small group.

"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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June 16, 2011, 11:35:07 PM
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it will be years before the U.S. government will even understand how bitcoin works.

I guess you didn't hear about Bitcoin's lead developer doing a presentation about Bitcoin for the CIA, then?

sure but im referring to the political side that likes to play with earmarks
freeto
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June 16, 2011, 11:51:00 PM
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it will be years before the U.S. government will even understand how bitcoin works.

You might be right there.
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