Wanted - Programmer for 2 new alt-coins (BOUNTY - 5oz of silver OR BTC)

[michaelmclees]

Is there anyone out there that would be willing to create a couple alt coins for me?  GDC (Goldcoin) and SRC (Silvercoin).

I have a couple specifications.

1 - All 100 billion coins are premined in first block and go into vault wallet, accessible only by me, meaning I mine the first block.
2 - 50% of all future transaction fees go to me.
3 - 50% of all future transaction fees go to miners.
4 - Coin can be merge mined with Bitcoin.

This is the plan.  Create one coin backed by gold and another backed by silver.

Gradually, people will begin to trust me with their gold and silver, which will be kept in safety deposit boxes in various banks and available on request from people who are able to send me units of these alt coins.

1 coin will equal 1oz of metal.  If someone sends me 1GDC, they will be sent 1oz of gold bullion from my safety deposit box.  If someone sends me 1oz of gold bullion, I will send 1GDC to their GDC address.  GDC's are always redeemable by me in metal as there is a 100% reserve, but shipping costs will apply.

Various other details will be worked out in future posts.

The transaction fees going to my personal address may be sent to the vault wallet so that I may redeem the metal to sell and pay for safety deposit box rent, personal expenses, etc...

As a reward for this task, I'm offering to send 2SRC's to the programmer, which he may keep or redeem with me for 1oz coins.

This is purely an experiment to see what, if any, demand for this sort of thing is out there.

*offer increased to 3SRC's
*offer increased to 4SRC's or a negotiated amount of BTC.
*offer increased to 5SRC's or a negotiated amount of BTC.

[1715305982]

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[michaelmclees]

Not a joke.  Just an experiment.

[temor]

An experiment that would leave you holding 100 Billion ounces of Gold and Silver... You could retire 1000 times over.

[michaelmclees]

Trust only comes with time.  There are benefits to holding GDC's and SRC's.  You can freely trade them all over the place, without shipping metal all over the world.

[Rawted]

Come on man. You've been here since 2011. You know damn well trying to get programming work and paying for it in your made up coin is beyond scummy. pay people proper for their work, or you'll get shit for effort.

[kokojie]

so what's the point of mining after the 1st block?

[Francesco]

Isn't a very similar feature already included into Ripple? You can issue IOUs denominated in gold and silver, if you like, and trade them for the real thing.

[michaelmclees]

Paying the programmer in the coin is meant as a show of trust.  He is perfectly free to send them back and redeem them for the real silver.  Perhaps the price is too low?

I understand that almost no one will trust it at first.  That is fine.  I've got time.  And perhaps no one trusts it ever.  This is also fine.

Mining after the first block will produce transaction fees as people move the coins around.  Collect enough and the fees may be redeemed for the bullion.

[michaelmclees]

Isn't a very similar feature already included into Ripple? You can issue IOUs denominated in gold and silver, if you like, and trade them for the real thing.

I'll need to look into this.

[ymer]

10/10 trolling 

[aa]

.

[edd]

10/10 trolling 

I think it's an interesting approach to the inconveniences associated with trading precious metals. Probably needed some community vetting before publicly soliciting a programmer, however.

[markm]

This is pointless, because people have to trust you, the centralised authority, for the bullion thus they might as well also trust you for the accounting system, so it is insanely expensive to use a blockchain for this, you should use Open Transactions or Ripple, or even Cyclos.

Possibly a good method would be to have me hold a cold-vault storage of bullion that will never move, and issue gold and silver tokens in Open Transactions, and you run a hot-vault service where you buy and sell the secured (fully backed) tokens for bullion from a "hot wallet" aka "hot vault". People then know the tokens are fully backed regardless of what accidents might befall the hot vault or any bullion that is in the mail etc.

(The bullion the tokens represent never moves, except some day when the whole business shuts down; it just sits forever in a secure vault backing tokens that hot-wallet / hot-vault operators buy and sell for bullion.)

-MarkM-

[michaelmclees]

(The bullion the tokens represent never moves, except some day when the whole business shuts down; it just sits forever in a secure vault backing tokens that hot-wallet / hot-vault operators buy and sell for bullion.)

-MarkM-

This is what would ultimately happen, however, it becomes difficult to trust an entity holding your bullion if you can't periodically test it out, just like it becomes difficult to trust the Fed when they won't let anyone inspect the gold at Fort Knox.  It gets easier if there is a 20 year history of everyone, no matter how large an account holder, being able to withdraw their bullion without issue.

[markm]

There are ancient bullion repositories that are insured by LLoyd's of London and all that good stuff, that provide notarised cetification of balances and stuff like that, so I don't think proving the cold-storage bullion exists is a problem, although how expensive such storage places tend to be, and how much they charge for each audit of how much you really have in them, I do not know offhand. It'd be an expense to take into account for sure.

-MarkM-

[SgtSpike]

I've thought about doing exactly this for gold or dollars for quite a while.  I always bumped into a few problems I could not solve:

- What happens if my main wallet gets hacked, stolen, or otherwise compromised?  Some method of reversing transactions would have to be available for such cases.  But then, what happens if a hacker gains access to the method of reversing transactions?  The whole idea breaks down.
- For gold, I would have to pay to have the gold stored securely.  How would I be able to fund this?
- For dollars, I would have to register as a MSB/MT, would have to keep full AML/KYC records.  It would be expensive.  I could potentially hope to fund this expense with investment income on the dollars I received, but then people would be less likely to trust the whole thing if I was actively investing the money they gave me.

[Anon136]

Is there anyone out there that would be willing to create a couple alt coins for me?  GDC (Goldcoin) and SRC (Silvercoin).

I have a couple specifications.

1 - All 100 billion coins are premined in first block and go into vault wallet, accessible only by me, meaning I mine the first block.
2 - 50% of all future transaction fees go to me.
3 - 50% of all future transaction fees go to miners.
4 - Coin can be merge mined with Bitcoin.

This is the plan.  Create one coin backed by gold and another backed by silver.

Gradually, people will begin to trust me with their gold and silver, which will be kept in safety deposit boxes in various banks and available on request from people who are able to send me units of these alt coins.

1 coin will equal 1oz of metal.  If someone sends me 1GDC, they will be sent 1oz of gold bullion from my safety deposit box.  If someone sends me 1oz of gold bullion, I will send 1GDC to their GDC address.  GDC's are always redeemable by me in metal as there is a 100% reserve, but shipping costs will apply.

Various other details will be worked out in future posts.

The transaction fees going to my personal address may be sent to the vault wallet so that I may redeem the metal to sell and pay for safety deposit box rent, personal expenses, etc...

As a reward for this task, I'm offering to send 2SC's to the programmer, which he may keep or redeem with me for 1oz coins.

This is purely an experiment to see what, if any, demand for this sort of thing is out there.

whats the point in a decentralized coin for a centralized service. Just maintain a centralized ledger.

[CoinHoarder]

What happens if you die? Who gets the gold and silver?

PS: Please say me!!

[Cheshyr]

I'm confused why he needs a programmer for this.  Isn't this a pretty trivial task?

I think it would be more interesting to take that first 100B coins and put them into pre-established services for disbursal, like faucets and FTP games and such, with bonuses from the games purchasable using said coin.  Generate transactions, a market, and a high difficulty for predictable pool mining, all at once.

[Zeke_Vermillion]

There are a lot of e-gold issuers out there, but it would be somewhat novel to have the certificates distributed via cryptocoin. But instead of using your own e-currency, why don't you use killerstorm's colored coin concept, and base it off an existing coin either btc or an alt chain. You don't need a whole new chain just for this test project.

However, a word of caution -- unless you know about AML requirements, success at this project may be hazardous to your freedom: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/e-gold/

[termhn]

LMFAO!!!!

[michaelmclees]

There are a lot of e-gold issuers out there, but it would be somewhat novel to have the certificates distributed via cryptocoin. But instead of using your own e-currency, why don't you use killerstorm's colored coin concept, and base it off an existing coin either btc or an alt chain. You don't need a whole new chain just for this test project.

However, a word of caution -- unless you know about AML requirements, success at this project may be hazardous to your freedom: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/e-gold/

I guess I'm a little confused how AML requirements could be involved if no dollars are ever in my hands.

[Zeke_Vermillion]

This is old news man, read the 2008 FinCen guidance. You know they're serious b/c they quoted it again in the recent guidance re: "virtual currencies". To wit,

 

a.   E-Currencies and E-Precious Metals

            The first type of activity involves electronic trading in e-currencies or e-precious metals.13 In 2008, FinCEN issued guidance stating that as long as a broker or dealer in real currency or other commodities accepts and transmits funds solely for the purpose of effecting a bona fide purchase or sale of the real currency or other commodities for or with a customer, such person is not acting as a money transmitter under the regulations.14

            However, if the broker or dealer transfers funds between a customer and a third party that is not part of the currency or commodity transaction, such transmission of funds is no longer a fundamental element of the actual transaction necessary to execute the contract for the purchase or sale of the currency or the other commodity. This scenario is, therefore, money transmission.15 Examples include, in part, (1) the transfer of funds between a customer and a third party by permitting a third party to fund a customer's account; (2) the transfer of value from a customer's currency or commodity position to the account of another customer; or (3) the closing out of a customer's currency or commodity position, with a transfer of proceeds to a third party. Since the definition of a money transmitter does not differentiate between real currencies and convertible virtual currencies, the same rules apply to brokers and dealers of e-currency and e-precious metals.

(http://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html)

If you somehow manage to avoid transferring value from one customer account to another, then you will still probably be either a virtual currency exchanger and/or issuer under the 2013 guidelines.

[zulzedd]

2 new altcoins? Merged? Oh, c'mon! It's enough of alts. And yes - Ripple provides almost same service.

[bnogal]

Instead storing gold and silver. I would make a NGO that buy rural land in different countries and offer the land be worked for centain amount in the eCoin.
This way the people renting should find the way to get coins back to pay.... To rent this land the NGO should give preference to people union over big companies.


And as i commented in other threads. I would add a neuronal network or a bit more advance algorithm than a fix percent to decide: the difficulty, a % of tax to transactions and the reward amount of coins.

The input could be:
 the time last block was found
 a vote of each person making a transaction. (meaning people happiness)
 % tax on transaction
 n reward by block
 difficulty
 historical data of all of them.

[freequant]

michaelmclees,
 
In fact, you want to be a Ripple gateway for XAU and XAG currencies.

The only difference is:
- It's already developped, fairly slick, and it comes with an exchange built in.
- You don't have to pay 2 oz of silver to anybody
- It won't generate any fees for you, but you can take a commission to emit or redeem the IOUs.

Physical gold is costly to move around, and very difficult to keep safe at reasonable expanses. Instead, you can deal in gold certificates, which are much easier to store in a bank safety box, or to ship by express mail. The certificate can be redeemed for physical gold at the issuing institution.

[michaelmclees]

Increasing the reward to 3 SRC.

[pyra-proxy]

Is there anyone out there that would be willing to create a couple alt coins for me?  GDC (Goldcoin) and SRC (Silvercoin).

I have a couple specifications.

1 - All 100 billion coins are premined in first block and go into vault wallet, accessible only by me, meaning I mine the first block.
2 - 50% of all future transaction fees go to me.
3 - 50% of all future transaction fees go to miners.
4 - Coin can be merge mined with Bitcoin.

This is the plan.  Create one coin backed by gold and another backed by silver.

Gradually, people will begin to trust me with their gold and silver, which will be kept in safety deposit boxes in various banks and available on request from people who are able to send me units of these alt coins.

1 coin will equal 1oz of metal.  If someone sends me 1GDC, they will be sent 1oz of gold bullion from my safety deposit box.  If someone sends me 1oz of gold bullion, I will send 1GDC to their GDC address.  GDC's are always redeemable by me in metal as there is a 100% reserve, but shipping costs will apply.

Various other details will be worked out in future posts.

The transaction fees going to my personal address may be sent to the vault wallet so that I may redeem the metal to sell and pay for safety deposit box rent, personal expenses, etc...

As a reward for this task, I'm offering to send 2SC's to the programmer, which he may keep or redeem with me for 1oz coins.

This is purely an experiment to see what, if any, demand for this sort of thing is out there.

I hope you realize that this is basically the story of fiat currency right?  When you realize that hardly anyone will be redeeming coins back into metal then you'll realize you can operate on fractional reserves of coin/currency then later when there is a run on the bank you can tell people that the real money is the digital coins and not the metal behind the scenes as they are no longer attached and the coins themselves have the value...

[Balthazar]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=169581.0

[hanzac]

This is really insane or more insane than a kid.

You'd better earn grand trust to achieve this on the internet. You're not the god father in even a small town.
If you want to be the god father on the internet. You'd better to prove yourself by show of manipulating some largest bot nets for example.

[emfox]

more than 20 days have past... you should post it 3 week before...

[michaelmclees]

I'll be increasing the reward periodically until either someone takes up my offer or I cannot redeem SRC rewards.  If you guys don't see the potential here for the thousands of gold and silver dealers around the world, that's fine.  If you think I ought to use Ripple instead, that's fine.  If you think this will turn into a fractional reserve deal, that's fine.  If you think this is detrimental to Bitcoin, that's fine.  If you think I'll end up in jail, that's fine.

If you want to debate and discuss the above topics here, have at it.

[jago25_98]

[michaelmclees]

Bumping before adding another ounce of silver to the bounty.

[michaelmclees]

Bounty is now 4oz of silver.

Or a negotiated amount of BTC.

[zdarkazn]

Concept doesnt really work. The metals are use for everyday purposes, which is why they have value. The coins themselves do not have value, you are attaching a value to something that isnt even tangible. I could also say "Oh, my BTC is backed by Platinum, come on, buy it!" A lot of people stay away from things that arent tangible because of the risk of being hacked or glitches, which explains why there arent massive amounts of people playing the "pool account markets".  Another thing to mention is: Is one GDC redeemable for ANY 1oz gold? Is it YOUR choice to pick what the consumers get in return? What if I had 100 GDC and I wanted 100 PAMP Suisse Bars only? Would you honor that? Or would you give me 100 bars of some cheap gold bar like Credit Suisse, which is worth less than PAMP Suisse?

[michaelmclees]

It is only the metal weight that matters.  So if someone wants to withdraw 1oz of silver, they'll need to send 1SRC to some address.  How they trade it with someone other than me is up to them.  And yes, if someone trades 1oz of silver as a Canadian Maple Leaf for 1GDC, only to send it back to me asking for metal back, they may very well wind up with a bar or something other than a Canadian Maple Leaf.

I don't think I'll be taking anything other than pure silver and gold (.999+), so I have a difficult time seeing how it would be an issue to those looking purely at weight anyhow.  The picture on the coin or bar is meaningless to me.

However, as the genesis block miner entity grows, it would probably cease dealing with individuals at some point and work exclusively with large orders.  The traders with large orders will be getting appropriate amounts of GDC and SRC in return for their metal, with which they may do what they will.

This is all more or less fantasy academics until someone produces the code to do what I'm looking for and I actually start doing something with it.  I've not looked into the legal aspects of it... so it could very well be that it's not possible to do at all in the US without going to jail.

At this point, I'm most interested in having the program running on my machine.

[zdarkazn]

It is only the metal weight that matters.  So if someone wants to withdraw 1oz of silver, they'll need to send 1SRC to some address.  How they trade it with someone other than me is up to them.  And yes, if someone trades 1oz of silver as a Canadian Maple Leaf for 1GDC, only to send it back to me asking for metal back, they may very well wind up with a bar or something other than a Canadian Maple Leaf.

I don't think I'll be taking anything other than pure silver and gold (.999+), so I have a difficult time seeing how it would be an issue to those looking purely at weight anyhow.  The picture on the coin or bar is meaningless to me.

However, as the genesis block miner entity grows, it would probably cease dealing with individuals at some point and work exclusively with large orders.  The traders with large orders will be getting appropriate amounts of GDC and SRC in return for their metal, with which they may do what they will.

This is all more or less fantasy academics until someone produces the code to do what I'm looking for and I actually start doing something with it.  I've not looked into the legal aspects of it... so it could very well be that it's not possible to do at all in the US without going to jail.

At this point, I'm most interested in having the program running on my machine.

Some dealers do not accept Credit Suisse Bars as recognized bars. If you say the picture on the coin or bar is meaningless to you, would you be ok with buying a generic 1 kilo gold bar for current market price? Absolutely no certification or anything stamped on it? Things like these make people decide not to purchase certain assayer's bars.  "It is only the weight that matters" If i sent you a gold bar that weighed 1 kilo and was the size of a netbook, would you accept it and give me 32 GRC? I THINK NOT. That would truly raise a red flag at why a gold kilo bar is that big. There is more to this problem than just centralizing the coin. The gold and silver would also have to be assayed and stamped at the same refinery in order to meet the same qualities for each thing. So lets say this concept is put into play, if I sent you 500 Pamp 1 oz gold bars, and I wanted them back later on, and you decide to send me 500 1 oz JM bars, then I have basically lost $20 x 500 dollars worth on my gold.

[michaelmclees]

Some dealers do not accept Credit Suisse Bars as recognized bars. If you say the picture on the coin or bar is meaningless to you, would you be ok with buying a generic 1 kilo gold bar for current market price? Absolutely no certification or anything stamped on it? Things like these make people decide not to purchase certain assayer's bars.  "It is only the weight that matters" If i sent you a gold bar that weighed 1 kilo and was the size of a netbook, would you accept it and give me 32 GRC? I THINK NOT. That would truly raise a red flag at why a gold kilo bar is that big. There is more to this problem than just centralizing the coin. The gold and silver would also have to be assayed and stamped at the same refinery in order to meet the same qualities for each thing. So lets say this concept is put into play, if I sent you 500 Pamp 1 oz gold bars, and I wanted them back later on, and you decide to send me 500 1 oz JM bars, then I have basically lost $20 x 500 dollars worth on my gold.

I don't think you're getting it.

A - Your example of the 1kg gold bar that is the size of a netbook...  This is like asking me if I'm prepared to give you 32GDC for for a 1kg Toblerone bar covered in gold colored foil.  No.  I'm not.  If you're not giving me gold, you're not getting GDC.  Testing what I'm getting would be part of the process, obviously.

B - If the name matters to you... fine.  That's because you're looking to trade in dollars and the amount of dollars someone is willing to pay for 1kg PAMP bar is different that a 1kg JM bar.  This is irrelevant because the trading that happens is not in dollars, or PAMP bars, or bags of loose silver dimes.  The trading happens in GDC and SRC, just like trade happens in BTC now.  Outside and beyond me, the issuer, the rates will float around as the markets see fit, bearing in mind of course, that anyone who comes to me looking to trade their GDC's and SRC's for metal, will be getting back pure metal only, irrespective of the mint.  Hell, if I were to amass enough of it, I'd probably be melting it down and reminting it, just for the sake of vault uniformity.

C - I would not be a bank, so any talk of getting the same particular metal out that you may have put in is nonsensical, and would be the result of luck.  You might as well ask if you can get back the same exact dollar bills from the ATM that you deposited in cash a week earlier.

[zdarkazn]

Some dealers do not accept Credit Suisse Bars as recognized bars. If you say the picture on the coin or bar is meaningless to you, would you be ok with buying a generic 1 kilo gold bar for current market price? Absolutely no certification or anything stamped on it? Things like these make people decide not to purchase certain assayer's bars.  "It is only the weight that matters" If i sent you a gold bar that weighed 1 kilo and was the size of a netbook, would you accept it and give me 32 GRC? I THINK NOT. That would truly raise a red flag at why a gold kilo bar is that big. There is more to this problem than just centralizing the coin. The gold and silver would also have to be assayed and stamped at the same refinery in order to meet the same qualities for each thing. So lets say this concept is put into play, if I sent you 500 Pamp 1 oz gold bars, and I wanted them back later on, and you decide to send me 500 1 oz JM bars, then I have basically lost $20 x 500 dollars worth on my gold.

I don't think you're getting it.

A - Your example of the 1kg gold bar that is the size of a netbook...  This is like asking me if I'm prepared to give you 32GDC for for a 1kg Toblerone bar covered in gold colored foil.  No.  I'm not.  If you're not giving me gold, you're not getting GDC.  Testing what I'm getting would be part of the process, obviously.

B - If the name matters to you... fine.  That's because you're looking to trade in dollars and the amount of dollars someone is willing to pay for 1kg PAMP bar is different that a 1kg JM bar.  This is irrelevant because the trading that happens is not in dollars, or PAMP bars, or bags of loose silver dimes.  The trading happens in GDC and SRC, just like trade happens in BTC now.  Outside and beyond me, the issuer, the rates will float around as the markets see fit, bearing in mind of course, that anyone who comes to me looking to trade their GDC's and SRC's for metal, will be getting back pure metal only, irrespective of the mint.  Hell, if I were to amass enough of it, I'd probably be melting it down and reminting it, just for the sake of vault uniformity.

C - I would not be a bank, so any talk of getting the same particular metal out that you may have put in is nonsensical, and would be the result of luck.  You might as well ask if you can get back the same exact dollar bills from the ATM that you deposited in cash a week earlier.

A. Ok, lets use a different example. If i sent you a gold bar thats the exact same size and weight as a Pamp 1kg, would you accept it? No markings, no certifications at all.

B. This is not trading in dollars. What about uncirculated bars vs circulated bars? What about bars with non-gold elements attached to them? Sure you're receiving a full 1 oz gold bar...with 5 grams of chemicals that cant be taken off.

Your solution: "Melting down the bars and reminting them would be the absolute best option to make everything uniform and equal. If not, then no one would be willing to trade their higher premium bars for lower premium bars in the long run. Every USD dollar is still worth 1 USD regardless if it is bent, folded, has markings, or has been stained. The only way to devalue a USD is if you were to cut off part of it. That is not the same for metals. Matte finish silver rounds do not go for the same rate as mirror finish silver rounds. Until everything is equal, this concept will only be a fantasy. I would support this if it was possible.

[michaelmclees]

A. Ok, lets use a different example. If i sent you a gold bar thats the exact same size and weight as a Pamp 1kg, would you accept it? No markings, no certifications at all.

B. This is not trading in dollars. What about uncirculated bars vs circulated bars? What about bars with non-gold elements attached to them? Sure you're receiving a full 1 oz gold bar...with 5 grams of chemicals that cant be taken off.

Your solution: "Melting down the bars and reminting them would be the absolute best option to make everything uniform and equal. If not, then no one would be willing to trade their higher premium bars for lower premium bars in the long run. Every USD dollar is still worth 1 USD regardless if it is bent, folded, has markings, or has been stained. The only way to devalue a USD is if you were to cut off part of it. That is not the same for metals. Matte finish silver rounds do not go for the same rate as mirror finish silver rounds. Until everything is equal, this concept will only be a fantasy. I would support this if it was possible.

A - If you sent me a 1kg gold bar I would give you the equivalent GDC.  Why wouldn't I?  What are you not understanding?

B - In what world is a 1oz gold bar going to have 5 grams of chemicals attached to it?  What is it, an 18 karat gold bar?  It's like you keep asking me nonsensical questions, and despite my attempts to give you sensible answers, still you persist.

"OK, here's a tough one for you...  Say I give you a 1oz gold coin.  But then you test it and it turns out... there's only .5oz of gold in it.  The rest is lead!  Will you give me 1GDC?"

What do you think?  Why would I?

Why would I give you 1GDC for .5oz of gold?  This would quickly put me in hot water, as everyone would rush to redeem their GDC's and I'd not have enough gold to cover their requests.  Perhaps people don't like my mint, because they prefer traditional looking bars over my bars... which look like gold plated golf balls.  Or they don't like my bars because I've stamped a picture of my face on them.  Who knows?  This would bring the GDC to USD rate down perhaps... but the GDC to physical weight in gold rate would remain the same, at least insofar as it is me doing the trade.  Trade your GDC's for whatever the guy down the road is selling and perhaps he might be able to accommodate your uncirculated, mirror finish PAMP fetish.

[zdarkazn]

A. Ok, lets use a different example. If i sent you a gold bar thats the exact same size and weight as a Pamp 1kg, would you accept it? No markings, no certifications at all.

B. This is not trading in dollars. What about uncirculated bars vs circulated bars? What about bars with non-gold elements attached to them? Sure you're receiving a full 1 oz gold bar...with 5 grams of chemicals that cant be taken off.

Your solution: "Melting down the bars and reminting them would be the absolute best option to make everything uniform and equal. If not, then no one would be willing to trade their higher premium bars for lower premium bars in the long run. Every USD dollar is still worth 1 USD regardless if it is bent, folded, has markings, or has been stained. The only way to devalue a USD is if you were to cut off part of it. That is not the same for metals. Matte finish silver rounds do not go for the same rate as mirror finish silver rounds. Until everything is equal, this concept will only be a fantasy. I would support this if it was possible.

A - If you sent me a 1kg gold bar I would give you the equivalent GDC.  Why wouldn't I?  What are you not understanding?

B - In what world is a 1oz gold bar going to have 5 grams of chemicals attached to it?  What is it, an 18 karat gold bar?  It's like you keep asking me nonsensical questions, and despite my attempts to give you sensible answers, still you persist.

"OK, here's a tough one for you...  Say I give you a 1oz gold coin.  But then you test it and it turns out... there's only .5oz of gold in it.  The rest is lead!  Will you give me 1GDC?"

What do you think?  Why would I?

Why would I give you 1GDC for .5oz of gold?  This would quickly put me in hot water, as everyone would rush to redeem their GDC's and I'd not have enough gold to cover their requests.  Perhaps people don't like my mint, because they prefer traditional looking bars over my bars... which look like gold plated golf balls.  Or they don't like my bars because I've stamped a picture of my face on them.  Who knows?  This would bring the GDC to USD rate down perhaps... but the GDC to physical weight in gold rate would remain the same, at least insofar as it is me doing the trade.  Trade your GDC's for whatever the guy down the road is selling and perhaps he might be able to accommodate your uncirculated, mirror finish PAMP fetish.

Point proven. No need for me to discuss anymore. Good luck.

[michaelmclees]

Good luck.

Thank you.  No hard feelings.   

[zdarkazn]

Good luck.

Thank you.  No hard feelings.   

Of course. Now lets see this in action someday, and while you're at it, make a PDC PTC and RHC too.

[michaelmclees]

If something like this were to take off, I'd have more gold and silver than I care to be responsible for.  No need to include other metals.

[markm]

How much hashing power do you have to secure these blockchains?

Do you have a whole bunch of Avalons or are you waiting on BFL or what?

If you don't have an absolutely massive amount of hash power the whole concept is screwed from the start.

Use Cyclos or Open Transactions or just mysqladmin or something to track your metal, its much more secure.

-MarkM-

[TheSwede75]

Yes! Lets keep publishing dumber and dumber alt coin ideas until no one has any trust for any of the crypto currencies! YAY!

[michaelmclees]

How much hashing power do you have to secure these blockchains?

Do you have a whole bunch of Avalons or are you waiting on BFL or what?

If you don't have an absolutely massive amount of hash power the whole concept is screwed from the start.

Use Cyclos or Open Transactions or just mysqladmin or something to track your metal, its much more secure.

-MarkM-

The idea is that they can be merge mined with Bitcoin.  Because transaction fees are backed by gold and silver and thus highly tradeable, it is in the interest of people to mine GDC and SRC.

[markm]

Have you actually examined how merged mining is actually working to secure chains though?

Even chains that are outright giving away (minting) coins to miners are mostly not getting mined, and every one of the many chains that proposed to pay miners only with transaction fees was forced to quit using blockchains at all because miners bsically just would not mine them.

Even making a Massively Merged Mining pool did not work to get miners, even though such a pool could necessarily pay more than any other pool could pay.

So basically your idea is screwed from the start. Take a look at how much the various currencies are worth that are listed at

http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/digitalisassets.html

You can there see that even being worth an ounce of gold per coin still is not good enough to make it feasible to use a blockchain, because you just will not get enough miners.

First we need to build massive ASIC farms committed to massively merged mining, only then will it maybe start to look reasonable to use blockchains for currencies that do not let miners make up coins out of thin air.

-MarkM-

[michaelmclees]

This is because most of the coins being merged mined are basically worthless.  I'll spell it out for you.

There is an enormous waiting list at MtGox, people waiting to get their dollars in and out of the exchange.  Let us suppose that SRC exists.

Mr. Silver trader visits me and trades me a 100oz silver bar for 100SRC, with which he may do what he likes.  What he likes to do is sell his SRC's to the general public for dollars.  So now Bitcoin-noob comes into his little shop and pays $25 per SRC.  He buys 4 of them.  Mr. Silver now has $100, with which he may buy more silver (just a little over 4 ounces at the current rate) and he's ready to make another deposit with me.  Now I'm holding 104.1oz of silver and Mr. Silver holds 100.1SRC.  Bitcoin-noob now goes to an exchange and trades his SRC for BTC.  When he's ready to cash out, he trades his BTC back to SRC and visits either me or Mr. Silver to get back to dollars.

It sounds convoluted, but it can be done basically anonymously in a matter of hours.

See how everyone is making out like bandits, especially when compared to what we do now?

Multiply this for large amounts of gold and silver and with trades happening all the time.  The transaction fees start to add up.

Even with half of transaction fees going to me for administrative costs, it should be clear that miners have every incentive to mine, especially as my reserve ramps up.

[markm]

You didn't look at the link I provided by the sound of it.

Also, you left out of your story the fact that anyone can at any time with almost trivial effort doublespend your coins because you do not have anywhere near even half of the Avalons that are in the field, nor thousands of GPUs.

A lot of the time miners have been looking at 5% to 10% increased earnings simply by merging in namecoin, devcoin and ixcoin, yet how many actually do so? A pathetically small fraction of them. Now look at how much money bitcoin mining brings in, and realise 5% to 10% of that will not be enough to get miners for your coin(s).

3600 bitcoins per day times $150 or so per bitcoin is about $540,000 per day. Even just one percent of that is $5400 per day, and only a 1% bonus for merged mining is way way too small to attract miners. 5% isn't enough even, and that would be $27000 per day.

You will have to pay miners a lot more than $27000 per day to get even a fraction of miners to mine your coins. Namecoin, Devcoin, plus Ixcoin between them have often offered miners 10% or more added income per day and that has not been enough to attract enough miners.

Blockchains are insanely expensive. SInce everyone has to trust you anyway it is absolutely insane to add $54000 or more PER DAY of overhead to your business just for the privilege of making your accounting vulnerable to attackers armed with ASICs and FPGAs and GPUs.

It is insane, you might as well just ship all the gold and silver you can find directly to Anon.

If you absolutely have to use a blockchain, research "coloured coins" or "colored coins".

-MarkM-

[michaelmclees]

And you didn't read my reply, obviously.  You're saying, "See how people aren't merge mining IOCoin?  That's proof that people won't merge mine Goldcoin."

There's no demand for IOCoin.  There is demand for physical gold.

See the difference?

[markm]

I am not talking about I0coins, I am talking about coins worth hundreds or thousands of dollars per coin.

You evidently did not actually go look up at the link I gave to the price charts of various coins that were forced, by lack of miners, to not use blockchains until some future day when it does become feasible to provide enough hashing power to secure them.

Try for example looking at the "asset values expressed in terms of bitcoin" tables, and notice how many are worth far more than one bitcoin, and notice that those are the very ones that have been forced, by lack of hashing COMBINED WITH BEING TOO VALUABLE TO NOT BE SECURED, to not use blockchains anymore.

It is BECAUSE THEY ARE VALUABLE that they cannot afford, like the coins you refer to as "worthless", to NOT HAVE MINERS.

I am talking about hundreds or thousands of dollars per coin.

Long long ago almost all of them surpassed bitcoin in value, which was an immense surprise as I had always assumed bitcoin would always be worth more than any of them. Yet due to all the hacks and bad press and so on, bitcoin crashed for a couple of years allowing all those coins - even bitnickels, intended to be worth only 1/20 of a coin by virtue of having twenty times as many (total of 420 million) in existence - to rise above bitcoin in price.

Sure it is fine to have relatively-worthless coins merged mined, since they are relatively not worth attacking or double-spending.

But if you want coins worth an ounce of gold each, that is comparable to being worth a Martian BotCoin each, and THAT is enough value that MERGED MINING IS TOO INSECURE.

-MarkM-

[Bitcoin Oz]

Just use ripple. Thats what its designed for.

[michaelmclees]

When I google "martian botcoin" I find that it is basically a currency for a strange sci-fi/fantasy game.  OK, fair enough.  I'm a little curious about how widely this game is played.

I simply have a difficult time believing that the issuers and users of BitNickels or Martian Botcoins are treating or thinking of their stashes of loot as anything like money.  It would be like me issuing a currency MMCOIN on Open Transactions and having a close friend buy .00000001 MMCOIN's for 1 dollar.  Then I issue 100 MMCOIN's to myself.

I'm a billionaire now?  MMCOIN's are so valuable that I cannot afford to have them secured by a blockchain?  Yeah right.

It could well be that Open Transactions would work well for what I'm doing, but that isn't what I'm advertising, is it?

[markm]

United Kingdom Britcoins (UKB) were originally intended to be worth one British Pound (GBP) each, and Canadian DIgital Notes (CDN) were originally intended to be worth one Canadian Dollar (CAD) each.

What happened though was they found that trying to keep the value that low was simply making the Martians richer, as the Martians eagerly bought up any CDN or UKB being sold that cheap. A whole lot of the richness of the Martians comes from the foolish attempts of the Canucks and the Brits to keep their own coins down in price so as to try to stay at par with the corresponding fiat they had originally hoped to be able to stay at par with. They would sell off a bunch of their coins whenever the price rose above the corresponding fiat, and the Martians would buy them, until the Martians ended up owning more of their coins than they did!

So in the end they gave up trying to make a limited edition coin (21 million only in existence) stay at par with freely printable fiat,

By that time they were among the lowest valued, per coin, of the lot. GMC, GRF, MBC, by not trying to artificially keep their value low, easily outstripped them in value.

-MarkM-

[michaelmclees]

But this basically occurred in a fictional game, no?

Can you really trust the issuers of all these currencies to make good on their obligations?  If I go to the issuer of UKB with 10 million UKB's, at any point, could I leave his home with a suitcase full of 10 million pounds?

[markm]

Now you are touching upon matters of jurisdiction, and some jurisdictions on the planet known as Earth might not recognise money transmitter licenses issued by Martians of the planet known as M5 and maybe vice-versa. So you are getting into the whole concept of sovereignty, and whose sovereignty is "fictional" versus whose sovereignty is "non-fictional" according to whom, and who recognises who as fictional or as non-fictional.

Let us bear in mind that  the planet known as Earth is widely considered to be mythical or fictional, so although Earthlings (if they existed) could scoff at Martians as being fictional, Martians are equally well able to claim that Earthlings are fictional.

For some corps, it might seem more practical to base their operations on  the planet known as M5, where they are able to operate without being interfered with by the mythical "Earthlings", instead of basing themselves on a mythical/fictional planet such as  the planet known as Earth.

-MarkM-

[michaelmclees]

I think you've just jumped the shark.

[markm]

Well once you have gotten all your appropriate licenses in place to operate a virtual currency backed by precious metals we can look again at how best to implement such a currency. Until then it is all kind of fictional / hypothetical isn't it?

-MarkM-

[michaelmclees]

I just think you're being more than a little dishonest in your assessment of Martian Botcoins and the like with respect to whether or not they're so valuable that merged mining with Bitcoin is too risky for the users.

[markm]

You evidently have not closely followed the history of merged mining.

Shop around the major pools, find out how much it will cost you to obtain enough hashing power to reasonably secure a chain.

Oh and by the way in which jurisdictions are you licensed to operate a currency backed by precious metals, since you consider jurisdiction so important?

The main reason that GRouPcoin has managed to operate so long un-molested is that it is not considered valuable. Raise its value even up to namecoin or litecoin levels and it is very likely to be attacked rather than added to the average miner's panoply of merged mined coins.

Even when GRouPcoin does get hashing power comparable to at least that enjoyed by Namecoin, if its value were to grow much beyond namecoin's it still might find that actually part of why namecoin is so cheap is because it is so insecure (so low in hashing power)...

-MarkM-

[freequant]

It could well be that Open Transactions would work well for what I'm doing, but that isn't what I'm advertising, is it?

Can you explain why you can't just use Ripple for what you propose?
It has been proposed to you like half a dozen time on this thread, and so far you haven't bothered giving a proper answer.
Nobody is going to help you if you don't clarify why your project needs to run as a proof-of-work currency.

Growing the bounty 1 oz at a time won't help much either: 4 oz of silver doesn't even amount to 1 BTC.
Unless you convince people that this is something useful, you aren't going to get developers flocking in droves to help you at this price. Now if you change 4oz of silver for 4oz of gold, it's a different story

[michaelmclees]

Can you explain why you can't just use Ripple for what you propose?
It has been proposed to you like half a dozen time on this thread, and so far you haven't bothered giving a proper answer.
Nobody is going to help you if you don't clarify why your project needs to run as a proof-of-work currency.

A couple of reasons.  1 - As far as I can tell, Ripple isn't even open source, so having anyone audit the code is basically impossible.  2 - I like the idea of a blockchain with miners setting the transaction fees.

[markm]

Well we can figure a ballpark for the transaction fees: at least $54,000 per day...

Just to start. But if they get to modify them, we can expect them to rise sharply from there...

-MarkM-

[michaelmclees]

Just to start. But if they get to modify them, we can expect them to rise sharply from there...

Right up to the point that users refuse to pay such fees.

[markm]

In other words, right up to the point where miners refuse to mine the coin.

-MarkM-

[markm]

All this crap is why I am still intending to do the Massively Merged Mining project.

Basically we should be able to afford to pay miners more than any other pool can afford to pay them, if we simply merged mine every coin that we can.

Once we have truly massive hashing power in the Massively Merged Mining project we can add more coins easily, so at that point we should be able to very easily just add your proposed coins into the merge and our miners need not even know or care since they will already be making more mining at a MMM pool than at any other pool.

So lets get that massive hashing power marshalled...

-MarkM-

[Mr. White]

lol, it's a nice idea.... it's never gonna work, or make actual money...

[AlphaWolf]

Wanted - Programmer for 2 new alt-coins (BOUNTY - 4oz of silver OR BTC)

I'll take the 4oz of BTC.

[michaelmclees]

Bump to 5oz of silver shipped to you for this project or an agreed upon Bitcoin amount.