Buying BFL debt. $0.10 per dollar owed.

[Inaba]

I'm asking you to back up your statements with evidence.  You are lacking said evidence while you're making statements that are not factual.  I am attempting to force you into providing said evidence to prove that you aren't making shit up.

_I_ know you're making shit up, but not everyone else does.  It's better if you make this clear to everyone than me just saying you're making shit up.  I notice that you still haven't provided any posts for any type of wager I have allegedly made, according to you.

[Photon939]

I'm asking you to back up your statements with evidence.  You are lacking said evidence while you're making statements that are not factual.  I am attempting to force you into providing said evidence to prove that you aren't making shit up.

_I_ know you're making shit up, but not everyone else does.  It's better if you make this clear to everyone than me just saying you're making shit up.  I notice that you still haven't provided any posts for any type of wager I have allegedly made, according to you.

How's that board respin for the beefier vcore regulators coming along?

I assume the mini and regular singles will be getting a housing upgrade to fit a larger heatsink yes?

Will you be shipping a Jalapeno or two for people who ordered mini and regular singles to make up the 5GH/s difference?

[FloridaBear]

BFL never priced their products in BTC

They did. I have an invoice from BFL with a clearly stated price both in $ AND bitcoin!

they never received any BTC for their orders.

They did. I've sent bitcoins to the bitcoin address they've pointed me to. I have a screenshot!

Nothing different than me ordering things from the US and having my sek converted into usd

It is very different. Read something about credit card payment processing first and stop comparing apples to oranges!

If I pay $ and my credit card is run in SEK it is MY BANK (I've signed contract with when my cc was issued) that is converting the SEK in $ and IS sending $$. The TRANSACTION currency is $$. This is why refund is in $. While paying in bitcoins the TRANSACTION currency is bitcoins. The refund must be in bitcoins.

BFL crooks usually say customers choose to pay through Bitpay. No! It is BFL that choose to accept customer' bitcoins through BitPay! BFL company is a customer of BitPay, not me. I don't have as a customer any contractual obligations or contractual relations with BitPay. For instance, can I pay BFL through the PayPal option, if BFL have such an option on their website, without being a PayPal customer? Of course, I can't!!! I paid the exact amount in bitcoins to the bitcoin address BFL specified on their invoice. It is BFL's choice to use BitPay's service to receive bitcoin payments from customers. BFL customers don't have any control on how BFL handle their bitcoin payments, how much bitcoins they convert in $, and how much they keep in bitcoin.

David Perry interviewed Sonny Vleisides back in September:

Quite important sub-point: One bit of the inner workings of BFL that I explicitly got permission to publish is that almost all bitcoins received via bitpay for preorders etc. are converted to USD by bitpay and deposited into BFL’s bank account. This is important because that account is a corporate account with per-user limits, multi-signature requirements and all the standard protections enforced by the bank that keep the CEO of any company from emptying the company’s bank account. The small fraction that remains denominated in bitcoin is only what they need to process refunds reasonably quickly. Almost all of BFL’s funds are secured against embezzlement the same way most companies’ funds are.

(emphasis mine)

That raises a big question in my mind: If they are holding "a small fraction...in bitcoin...to process refunds reasonably quickly," surely that implies that customers who paid in bitcoin should be entitled to refunds in bitcoin. Otherwise, why hold any bitcoin at all?

Here's another gem from this interview:

BFL is also painfully aware of the heavy delays customers experienced with their FGPA lineup and I’ve received great assurances – as well as more secretive evidence – that things are going to be different this time around. While I can’t share a lot of details I can say that many of the secret bits and pieces revolved around moving manufacturing processes that had been external previously into internal hands.

Gee, that worked out well.

[becoin]

So you perpetuated a lie.

Shall we talk about how you, *cough*, "shipped" that dev unit to Luke?

Sure, why don't you quote some posts of mine on the subject.

It's somewhere in this clusterfuck:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=163261.msg1713429#msg1713429

So did you or did you not ship a unit to Luke before April?

Really?  Please point it out?  Or are you lying about that?

Somebody is lying for shipment in April. I guess it is quite common lying on April 1st. It is April Fools Day.

[skeeterskeeter]

Lol these posts are amazing. This has to do with a few posts a few pages back, does not apply to the convo as it flows now, but it shows how much BFL cares about their customers. Which shows something about them as a company.

If I may show my little piece about BFL and display how much of a whinny prick customer I am they hate so much.

Below is a email thread I had with BFL about my pre-order. I was being such a whinny customer trying to pay for my product that they decided to not honor my pre-order price ($160) and told me to re-pre-order and added some ad hominem about how I am a procrastinator.

I personally would like to apologize to BFL for trying to give you money for this vaporware that slowly is condensing into free demo's for devs and not paid pre-orederers.

Skeeter:
Hello,

I just realized I placed an order and never did get to pay, I see my order # is 100015146. I have $200 in paypal atm, how can I pay? Or do I wait til our batch # is up?

BFL Brian:
We have changed our product line and the model that you have chosen will only be shipped if a paid preorder was placed before April 4th, 2013 is in our preorder queue.

We are not shipping ASICs yet as we are still testing the chips.  Prepayment is the only method by which your preorder is entered into the queue. We are working to start shipping in the next couple weeks and have a backlog in the queue, so new pre-orders, regardless of product or power consumption, will likely ship sometime in late July or early August, sooner if possible.

We ship in strict order of payment date with absolutely no way to move ahead in the queue.
 Thank you for your interest in Butterfly Labs, and our products.
 Brian

Skeeter:
Ok, so can I pay now still?

Even if I pay now then I basically am in the back of the line still, my interest early on does not give me any precedence? (I'm just wonder I won't bitch or complain).

BFL Brian:
Please visit the website and place your preorder.
Thank you, Brian

Skeeter:
It won't let me checkout, the cart is "empty"?

BFL Brian:
The previous products are no longer available for preorder.
 Please preorder the new models available now.
Thank you, Brian

Skeeter:
So order number #100015146 is no longer valid?

BFL Brian:
Do you have a payment transaction number or receipt?

Skeeter:
Are you asking if I have already payed? No I have not, I ordered and wanted to pay, I think the conversation chain is in the thread (email). I could not transfer funds quick enough, lost track of time with life and all and just never paid. When I log into my account under this email, I can see my order that I placed but never payed for.

                Recent Orders
                View All
                Order #    Date    Ship To    Order Total    Status    
                100015146    2/14/13    SkeeterSkeeter $163.00    Pending    View Order

So I placed the order just never got around to paying it. I cannot pay now? Must I now pay more?

BFL Brian:
This product is no longer available to preorder.
Procrastination is the grave in which opportunity is buried.

Skeeter:
So can I not pay the price for when I placed the order, and be put at the end of the line?

I believed in you guys when you were semi-pro now that you've gone pro its like you just took my BFL trading card and ripped it in half. Broke my heart.. </3 You guys sold out, and haven't even gotten the cup yet

Who cares right, y'all filthy rich; if it ships.

Guess I'll just wait and see if it does ship, meantime put my $163 into btc and make a profit waiting for you to send it.

Brian:
Thank you,
We want to be here for you with healthy mining products for years to come.
 Brian

Skeeter:
Trollcity.

I mean I guess it is their choice to make me pay more or not. But why can I not even get an answer. They just danced around telling me anything I wanted to know. They made it more difficult on themselves (I thought that customers were not worth the time when they want to know something?; So why even talk to me; AND moreover why troll me and take up more of your own time that is so valuable?). All that this conversation should've been (if they had anything resembling customer service).

Me: I had a pre-order #xxx but didnt pay, can I pay now and be put in the back of the line
BFL: No, you have to place a new pre-order the product changed and costs more now, sorry we cannot honor your pre-order. That is why your cannot pay on the site. Seeing as I am a customer service rep, I have placed you a pre-order for your email and made a way for you to pay!

How it went (satire):

Me: I had a pre-order #xxx but didnt pay, can I pay now and be put in the back of the line
BFL: (gibberish about the product and how they can't put a IC on a PCB in the time they thought they could)
ME: So I cant pay
BFL: Yes you can just pay us on the site
Me: I cant
BFL: you have to preorder the item, then you can pay
Me: I do have a pre-order its #xxx, is it valid?
BFL: Did you pay
Me: Jesus christ, no. WTF do you think we are talking about?
BFL: Sucks, you should've paid before April 5th (we didnt tell you that, so we can make more $$ on people who still want the product but have not paid)
Me: fuckers

BFL knows they got the pussy every guy wants to lick, so they are doing peep shows for $$.

[LazyOtto]

...
If I may show my little piece about BFL and display how much of a whinny prick customer I am they hate so much.
...

Actually, IMO you just proved BLF's position with that post.

Per that convo, you *never were* a customer. You placed an order and then did not pay for it in a timely manner. That order was voided due to non-payment.

In this narrow and specific case I would have to agree with Josh, you are not the type of customer which any company would desire.

[Viceroy]

lazy doesn't get it, but I feel your pain skeeter.  we expect a certain level of customer service from companies and clearly bfl lacks in that department.

[dataphile]

Skeeter:
Hello,

I just realized I placed an order and never did get to pay, I see my order # is 100015146. I have $200 in paypal atm, how can I pay? Or do I wait til our batch # is up?
.....

I see nothing wrong with how BFL reacted.

Sounds to me like you put an item in your cart and then failed to pay for it, and are now arguing that BFL should honor your "honest intentions" as though they are worth the difference between the new and old price.

[Viceroy]

he didn't contact the company for the to preach at him:
"Procrastination is the grave in which opportunity is buried"

unprofessional
uncalled for
amateur

[dataphile]

he didn't contact the company for the to preach at him:
"Procrastination is the grave in which opportunity is buried"

unprofessional
uncalled for
amateur

He didn't contract the company.

[skeeterskeeter]

I know yes it was wrong to want the lower price. But I did not get a single notification that the price was changing or I had to pay by a specific date. No nothing, I told them with my preoreder that I was interested, in return they told me nothing and ignored me.

I invested time into researching BFL and them giving them an honest vouch that I am willing to at least consider their product and if not buy it (I did want to and had the $ too). And they responded by ignoring me and investing no time in me, other than what time they wasted with the run around.

All I wanted to do was find this information
- Why can I not pay?
- How do I pay and how much?

As you can see I didn't care the order in line or anything about shipping, or any of the questions they try to answer with the obvious copy and paste replies to emails. Seeing how none of his answers really answered my two questions I had to keep asking until I did become an annoying customer. Thats when you see how well mannered a company is and see how on top of it they are.

It is odd to give a company so much persona when (i dont know this) they are so small (less than 50 employees?). Because it might only be a few people talking to all the customers and those peoples personality comes out instead of what the people in the company collectively think the companies personality is and should be.

The engineers are probably like we got this we know how to fix and make it but it will take time as we said back a year ago. And the marketers are like, well shit we just keep telling people its coming. And the reps have no control over the engineering or marketing and all they do is get customers who are pissed off because the marketers keep saying that its coming, while it all still rest on the one fact that the item is still not "assembled".

Its just a vicious circle of people getting pissed off waiting for the item to be made.

[Viceroy]

He didn't contract the company.

because their responses were (and remain)
unprofessional
uncalled for
amateur

[creativex]

He didn't contract the company.

because their responses were (and remain)
unprofessional
uncalled for
amateur

Amateur is right. Here's the COO of BFL at his best. Taking zero responsibility for anything ever.

Josh Zerlan on why you should get a refund from Butterfly Labs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLWJf345G0s&feature=youtu.be&t=2m16s

Micon, Where is the bet where Inaba bet 1000 btc and why is he not wearing a scammer tag?

There isn't one.  Bryan Micon refused to bet on his statements.   His claim, much like Frankie's, was that BFL is a scam and will never ship a product.  When pressed to back up those words, he refused and instead (again, like Frankie) offered different terms where BFL's power and ship dates would be in the immediate future... clearly showing that Bryan Micon is a liar, since he makes a claim, then claims to be a gambler, then refuses to bet on his claim without all sorts of ludicrous caveats.

Bryan Micon, the consumate scammer.  Sells a failed poker system that he knows doesn't work and is the laughing stock of the poker world, just like his reputation.

You've been lying since last fall

P Gage, looks like SC girls make great wives.. and yes I can heat coffee and fry and egg on it

Please provide proof of your accusations.  Your conjecture or wishful thinking does not constitute proof, BTW.

so when you endlessly say 'should be shipping in a week'  no one should ever believe you?

if that's the case, then sure, you haven't been lying

There's a reason "should" is the first word of your quote.  lrn2grmr

There's a reason "should" is the first word of your quote.  lrn2grmr

Holy fuck you are right!!  You never committed to anything except being a total douche who's miserable with projections... you'd think you were getting paid to be a project manager but you were just getting paid to keep pre-orders coming in!

Fantastic job - well done

How's that MiniRig doing?

Nope, I did not commit to that, either.  When I commit to something, you'll know it.  

PS - I'm not a project manager and never have been (paid or otherwise).  Battin' 0 here partner.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179939.msg1898552#msg1898552

[MooC Tals]

The quintessential Josh from BFL the big liar of the Big Fucken Liar clan.

Welcome to Bitcoin the wondrous land of dimwits where sheep wander freely and intelligent people are never listened to.

In a nutshell idiocracy

Now everyone go an buy a money machine from BFL because in Josh's own words he trolls the forums to get more hype to receive more pre-orders.

Where is my credit card?

[seleme]

What a humble man OP, you won't find many of this kind. He'd pay 10 cents of each dollar you are owed, it's a hero of our time.

[Viceroy]

What a humble man OP, you won't find many of this kind. He'd pay 10 cents of each dollar you are owed, it's a hero of our time.

You gotta give him credit for coming up with the post.  Kudo's to capitalism.

[Matthew N. Wright]

What a humble man OP, you won't find many of this kind. He'd pay 10 cents of each dollar you are owed, it's a hero of our time.

You gotta give him credit for coming up with the post.  Kudo's to capitalism.

It's a sign of the times; this forum is a cesspool of suckers.

[Inaba]

In this narrow and specific case I would have to agree with Josh, you are not the type of customer which any company would desire.

Now multiply that by 1000 and that's what we have to deal with regularly.  Whiny people who want a free handout.  See next reply for more on this:

lazy doesn't get it, but I feel your pain skeeter.  we expect a certain level of customer service from companies and clearly bfl lacks in that department.

Perhaps oddly (for you) I agree with your statement 100%.  You have been raised to believe that the customer is always right and you think that a company should treat you like royalty, no matter how poorly you behave or how unreasonable your demands are.  It's ok, it's part of your culture and a horrible, horrible business modality that is held over from the 80's.  Modern businesses are just now starting to realize that treating customers like royalty and bending over backwards to pacify them is detrimental not only to current business but also future business.  Not only does it cost more money to retain poor customers, but it encourages other customers to whine and pitch a fit to get their way, perpetuating a horrible cycle.  It also forces an ongoing cost to maintain that customer that is often in excess, usually many times over, in what revenue that customer brings in.  

As much as I hate using Paypal as an example, they have got it right, from a profit driven perspective.  If you are a troublesome user, they will send you an email saying "We no longer want to do business with you.  We won't discuss why. blah blah blah"  Then they will close your account and that's the end of it.  They simply don't care.  Try to call them and ask, they'll tell you they won't discuss it.  The reason is: You are unprofitable.  They don't want you.  Ever.  Hate them as much as you want (I do), but they absolutely dominate the industry with regards to profits.  This business modality is a large part as to why.

At the end of the day, when you tally the balance sheet, it's far better to jettison those customers than it is to keep them.  Now, if your goal is to be altruistic and a philanthropic or non-profit company, then perhaps that's the way to go.  If your goal is to be a profitable company:  See ya!

[Viceroy]

come talk to us After you've been affiliated with a successful company.  in the meatime try to understand this: http://www.forentrepreneurs.com/startup-killer/

ps.  bitcoin is a paypal killer and paypal most certainly does not do customer service well, like you once were they are a monopoly.  in an age of instant competition you must love your customer.  read the article.  you cannot expect to flourish while insulting the people who pay you. your company will not exist in two years.

[dataphile]

In this narrow and specific case I would have to agree with Josh, you are not the type of customer which any company would desire.

Now multiply that by 1000 and that's what we have to deal with regularly.  Whiny people who want a free handout.  See next reply for more on this:

lazy doesn't get it, but I feel your pain skeeter.  we expect a certain level of customer service from companies and clearly bfl lacks in that department.

Perhaps oddly (for you) I agree with your statement 100%.  You have been raised to believe that the customer is always right and you think that a company should treat you like royalty, no matter how poorly you behave or how unreasonable your demands are.  It's ok, it's part of your culture and a horrible, horrible business modality that is held over from the 80's.  Modern businesses are just now starting to realize that treating customers like royalty and bending over backwards to pacify them is detrimental not only to current business but also future business.  Not only does it cost more money to retain poor customers, but it encourages other customers to whine and pitch a fit to get their way, perpetuating a horrible cycle.  It also forces an ongoing cost to maintain that customer that is often in excess, usually many times over, in what revenue that customer brings in.  

As much as I hate using Paypal as an example, they have got it right, from a profit driven perspective.  If you are a troublesome user, they will send you an email saying "We no longer want to do business with you.  We won't discuss why. blah blah blah"  Then they will close your account and that's the end of it.  They simply don't care.  Try to call them and ask, they'll tell you they won't discuss it.  The reason is: You are unprofitable.  They don't want you.  Ever.  Hate them as much as you want (I do), but they absolutely dominate the industry with regards to profits.  This business modality is a large part as to why.

At the end of the day, when you tally the balance sheet, it's far better to jettison those customers than it is to keep them.  Now, if your goal is to be altruistic and a philanthropic or non-profit company, then perhaps that's the way to go.  If your goal is to be a profitable company:  See ya!

And what about the customers that ARE profitable? You have given them equally poor service than people who have had issues paying you or are trying to get a free discount.

It is unethical to package totally vacuous "predictions" with optimistic hedges, and it is insulting to point at your tentative language and shrug your shoulders as though you are relieved of responsibility when customers ask you why you cannot deliver. Keep in mind that I am only referring to your half year of "we're shipping soon," I'll leave it to someone else to fight the product specification battle.

Yeah, you guys offer the most competitive prices and there is high demand for your product. Yes, this gives you a lot of license to lie and screw up while still pulling big profits. This is obviously your business model and it is completely transparent.