Bitcoin Forum

Have they stopped fulfilling refunds or something?

This reminds me of the "Do me a favor for 0.01 BTC (by getting me 50,000 free XRP)" scam threads.

Is this an actual auction Smiley

$0.75 (but expect me to put in a refund request for anyone who messages)

how much did you pay to get rid of the scammer title?

The first or the second time?

..the sound of maple trees sapping..

...the sound of Indiana corn growing.

..the vacuum of space jammed into a peanut..

So I can go get a refund for 100% of my order value in USD from BFL or I can get 1/10 from you?

BFL is going to end up shipping the product. It will use more power than they said, take longer to get, but will have the stated performance. Exactly like the last time.

So if anyone has BFL SC Single's they want to sell for $0.20 per dollar owed, please let me know instead ;)

Josh: Sonny, sorry calling you so late, but I have an idea.
Sonny: I'm all ears, bud.
Josh: I got the idea from some thread on BT, and I simply modified it. Since people are refunding in droves, we can fire up one of our sockpuppets to payout sixty cents on the dollar, thus you get to keep forty percent, minus my cut of course.
Sonny: Of course! I like it! Do it! By the way, how's the interesting solution to the MiniRig problem coming along?
Josh: Can't talk over the phone because it may be tapped.
Sonny: HeHe!
Josh: HeHe!
Al the Alpaca: (tapping the line) Them boy's ain't right!

You should try it sometime, it's delicious.

"Have the stated performance" yet use much more power than stated in the original specification?

How am I not surprised to see a stupid statement that contradicts itself posted here?

Had too much BFL kool-aid recently?

Lol so fail  ;D

So I can go get a refund for 100% of my order value in USD from BFL or I can get 1/10 from you? People were paying more for pirate money 1 month after he closed down -.-

Try again once BFL stops giving refunds and stopped communicating for weeks and you might have better luck! If BFL turns out to be a scam the whole plan is so elaborate that even Dr. Evil would be impressed. Like really, they make a an actual ASIC and claim it turned out bad so they can string everyone along to collect more preorders? Brilliant scam! Since you know there is very little doubt that they actually have a working ASIC, it's performance just isn't where it was expected to be.

BFL will start shipping sometime in the future  ;), if they were in the gaming industry they could have borrowed "soon" from a blizzard entertainment timeline.
 

Stop it with your logic and reason already, just give the man your money

Bruno and smoothie, don't you find it odd that, even as an obvious sock puppet, OP has spent his entire time on the forums bashing BFL, now only to want to buy in? Might that be interpreted by some as an attempt to spread FUD for profit?

Incase you missed it, I am the only one prepared to give anybody money at this point.

Nobody is forcing you to take my offer, nobody is forcing you to request a refund. The day will come when your refund request from BFL hasn't shown up for a month, and you start considering my offer.

Fuck me, right. I am both a company shill and detractor. Angry customer with sunk costs is completely out of the question. I must simultaneously be both the company and the competition. Prepared to scam people by paying them money.

Still doesn't change the fact that today under current conditions your post is a waste of server storage since it offers nothing and is completely pointless.

It would be like me offering to buy Apple shares at 20 USD each and saying that the day will come when you thanked me for this offer!

Your claim to righteousness based on a *future* offer has no validity, as you are offering it *now*. When the time comes that BFL has gone bankrupt and can't refund anyone for anything, is anyone supposed to believe the sockpuppet that spent his entire post history warning of BFL being a scam to pay anything or likely just never log in again?

There are benefits to remaining anonymous-- you get to dodge responsibilities and never need to face consequences for your actions, like people like myself do on a regular basis. The downside of being anonymous is, you'll never be able to argue your legitimacy.

I will pay $0.25 on the dollar for anyone considering the offer.

Motives aside, I'm not sure how the OP can't lose money on this.

If he buys people's BFL "debt" now and BFL delivers, they're going to deliver to the people who ordered the units, not the OP.

If BFL gets to the point where they start refusing refunds, then it's unlikely they'll have any assets which can be recovered by unsecured creditors in a lawsuit.  I'm not even sure about how customers would go about legally assigning their interest in a "debt" which isn't yet due (it's not a debt until such time as a refund request isn't honoured).

What's to stop someone from selling their BFL debt to the OP now and getting a refund from BFL or taking delivery of their unit and making themselves and easy 10%?  BFL's under no obligation to honour any agreements made between their customers and third parties in respect of ASIC orders.

How is the OP even going to confirm that someone hasn't already cancelled their order and received a refund?  I seriously doubt BFL is going to share such information with the OP.

I made that mistake with my initial BFL order, and won't make it again.

I guess the alternative would be just to post my passport, and assume people will ignore my most recent scam

still dodging responsibilities and still never facing consequences.

What fucking legitimacy do you have?

A no risk offer to exchange money for investment. I don't think providing my social security number is needed for this transaction.

I will pay 30 cents on the dollar.  (your childish language is uncalled for)

What scam did you commit recently? I've never scammed nor stolen from anyone. I am pretty well known for pulling giant pranks at the expense of others though (something I have no interest in doing anymore).

You might want to click the link in my signature. Or if this comment was specifically about the bet and you're not thinking people were being paid for it, this thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140654) might be more to the point.

I wasn't aware this thread was about me, but since you ask, despite co-founding Bitcoin Magazine, DialCoin, the largest business incubator group in Bitcoin, and paying off every loan or bad investment I've made despite personal risks and discomfort, I don't have much "legitimacy" to give opinions on BFL because my expertise is not in ASIC development. My expertise is more in the area of human behavior, specifically people trying to take advantage of other people and misrepresenting themselves, which I feel the sockpuppet offer for 10% of BFL's current 100% refund is.

The bet was a prank both for attention (which I got) and to prove a point about people being far too trusting. I had already discussed what I would do if I won (give everything back) or lost (give one of 5 previously created excuses). None of this is relevant though, because the bet in itself was insanely reckless and poorly thought out. I hadn't considered that it would affect people's lives so horribly, and it moved me to take responsibility for it, regardless of how hard that was.

Who's a known scammer? If that was a reference to me, what have I stolen?

A no risk offer to exchange money for investment. I don't think providing my social security number is needed for this transaction.

looks like you are calling ME. scammer because you don't know the forum rules.  my offer stand.  pm me if interested.

I think you just went full retard.

Without giving too much away with regards to my legal strategy, 4 people have made themselves and their personal assets liable by representing themselves as officers of the company in more than 1 country. I'm not opening myself up to scammers by purchasing their "word" that they're selling me their order. I'm not an idiot, i wouldn't make the offer, and won't issue payment without a means to recover my investment. I made that mistake with my initial BFL order, and won't make it again.

Whatever you paid to get rid of your scammer tag was too much.

I corrected you on a point by point basis

So no one wants to sell me apple shares for 20 usd then? they will be worthless one day, I promise.

You do realise that staff are not necessarily officers of a company regardless of their inflated job titles.  If you've managed to get 4 people to admit that they're directors of BFL, then more power to you - but you still have to prove more than incompetence on the part of BFL before you can pierce the corporate veil and go after their personal assets (assuming they're not smart enough to have made their assets judgement-proof).  

The reason why such litigation is so rarely pursued is because it's so damned expensive and the prospects of recovering meaningful amounts after legal expenses are so small, especially when multiple jurisdictions are involved.

I don't think so, and neither do the people whom I paid as they were people who placed bets with me and won. (e.g. the scammer tag was removed because I'm not a scammer)

I couldn't see a single point in there, just baseless speculation of what you personally think happened.

Back to offering 10% of something people can get 100% for right now...

They can request 100% for right now. Whether they can get 100% for right now remains to be seen.

Why do you seem to have so much invested in the topic?

I think the offer of 10% is insulting and suspicious despite BFL's drawbacks, and don't mind sharing that opinion in the thread offering it.

if you were paying 0.1 BTC on the original BTC paid, I bet you'd get a lot of offers :)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=167017.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=169948.0

No, it's pretty public information that people have been given refunds in full on a regular basis for any order made up to the point they advertise "no refunds".

when they don't, I am option three.

$0.75

I will pay 30 cents on the dollar.

Fair enough, but for the "hard of reading" I'll quote the other offers in this thread.



You're more likely to be option five in all fairness.

I have no doubt that i would eventually buy the debt off of those two cunts at the 10% initially offered.

Assuming those two are even still reachable when the shit hits the fan.

says the guy who's less than 30 days old to a person who's been a miner and active in these forums for two years.   we'll see who is still here IF bfl ever ships. (I've erased more posts than you've made).

. (i've never erased a post)

because you've not even been here a month.  after a while you get tired of seeing stupid posts (like this) and you grow tired of meaningless comments (like yours).  lock this thread, nobody's buying your bs offer.

How about I just throw a bag of apples for 1 of your singles?

Fuck me, right. I am both a company shill and detractor. Angry customer with sunk costs is completely out of the question. I must simultaneously be both the company and the competition. Prepared to scam people by paying them money.

Without giving too much away with regards to my legal strategy, 4 people have made themselves and their personal assets liable by representing themselves as officers of the company in more than 1 country. I'm not opening myself up to scammers by purchasing their "word" that they're selling me their order. I'm not an idiot, i wouldn't make the offer, and won't issue payment without a means to recover my investment. I made that mistake with my initial BFL order, and won't make it again.

Ok then, allow me to use more appropriate language.


This is neither the time nor the place to start an auction. Should somebody choose to auction off their order and/or debt with regaurds to butterfly labs and the delivery and/or failure to deliver their bitcoin mining products, feel free to out bid me there. This is not an auction. This is an offer to purchase debt owed to customers of butterfly labs with the intention of accumulating a sufficient amount to justify legal action.

In the interests of absolute transparency. I do not own any potion of butterfly labs I do have orders placed through butterfly labs. I do not believe my orders will be fulfilled. The cost for retainer for a lawyer capable of recovering my investment in butterfly labs in the countries in which their officers live/claim to live is larger than my current investment in butterfly labs, but still more than i would care to lose to what is obviously fraud.

Jesus christ, only on BCT could somebody prepared to pay for something be called out as a scammer by somebody who is completely deserving of the tag.

Dude... you are the very definition of idiot. heh

Buying debt because "BFL won't ship."  Yeah.. good luck with that.  How about you lay some BTC on that in the form of a bet?  Lets say 500 BTC?  How many units do you consider as being valid for "shipped?"  5 units?    I'm more than willing to do escrow.

Let me guess... you're going to pull a Micon and not take the bet or put weird caveats on it, even though your claim is that BFL is a scam and/or that BFL won't ship... but you're not willing to bet on it.  It's idiots like you that are classic example of what an idiot is.  You make a claim, but then refuse to back up the claim and back peddle over and over when your ludicrous claims get wrecked.

Just take a look at Micon's history as far as claims for BFL goes.  He's made crazy wild claims repeatedly and each time they get wrecked, but he's so stupid he can't even understand why people don't take him seriously.  

I agree with op, even though he's an ass... at least he's not a criminal lying piece of trash.

You've made it quite obvious you're willing to pay for bets to go your way. You've also made it quite clear you're quicker to jump to insults than facts. YOU WORK FOR THE GOD DAMN COMPANY. Why is it you have to jump in here and spout "idiot, idiot, idiot" instead of "yeah, here's your order, let's ship that thing to you"? How about instead of calling me an idiot, and betting 500btc, or calling avalon garbage, and betting 1000 BTC you won't miss your power usage targets you SHIP SOME GOD DAMN ASICS TO YOUR GOD DAMN CUSTOMERS.

Yeah, i'm not laying down 500 BTC just so this fucking troll can walk around their little shop slapping "luke-jr" on empty minirig cases to claim they shipped 5 units. I really couldn't ask for any better advertising for my offer.

Fair enough, but for the "hard of reading" I'll quote the other offers in this thread.



You're more likely to be option five in all fairness.

You mean like yourself?  Oh... sorry, maybe not criminal, just a piece of trash.  Trailer trash I'd wager.
 your claim.

Why don't we start a wager if the Feds look into BFL how many of them will be locked up lol

what do you mean IF?

Lets break this down real quick:

1. You want to hedge your bet.
2. You are absolutely positive BFL won't ship.  Ergo, a bet against BFL is a sure thing, according to your claim.
3. You are guaranteed a win of 500 BTC (or whatever amount you care to wager)
4. You don't want to bet because it's the "opposite" of hedging.

So you just tell me how many units you consider legit to satisfy the claim of shipped there champ, we'll go with that.

dropping my offer back to 20 cents on the dollar.

Let's break THIS down a little bit

1. you consider orders with your own company a bet
2. you consider a 10% hedge against a 100% order a sure thing
3. again, you're willing to cheat and scam your way to the winning side of a bet
4. you're really bad at math.


How about we start with the orders so far which have been bought and paid for in full. That shouldn't be too hard, a company shipping orders that were paid for months ago, should it? Legally an order has to be refunded or shipped within 30 days of full payment, so we can exclude any orders placed since march 20th, so only the orders placed between june 2012, and march 20, 2013. I'll put 350 BTC in escrow up against that, that you won't ship all orders placed within that time period before june 1st, 2013. What do you say?

Buying debt because "BFL won't ship."  Yeah.. good luck with that.  How about you lay some BTC on that in the form of a bet?  Lets say 500 BTC?  How many units do you consider as being valid for "shipped?"  5 units?    I'm more than willing to do escrow.

How about you first pay up on the 1000 BTC bet you already lost?

Yep, I nailed it.  Your claim:

BFL won't ship any product.

Your bet:  BFL won't ship thousands of products before June 1st.  

Which is it Franky?  Will BFL ship a product or not?  Your claim is that BFL won't ship a product, you are unwilling to bet on that, but you ARE willing to bet that BFL won't ship thousands of products before June 1st, 2013.  Why would you need to put such ridiculous constraints on a bet when you believe BFL won't even ship a single product?

Oh... maybe it's because you're a lying piece of shit?  Yeah, thought so...

frank, I've changed my mind about you...  I live in Denver only a few hours from bfl.  let me know how I can help you.

Uh oh, this guy has caught on to what Frankie is after....watch out.

Inaba (A BFL employee for those that don't know)

I bet the only reason the BFL employee showed up in this thread is because he needs to put the breaks on your thread before people start either:

A) That their refunds are in anyway at risk when or if they ever need them.

B) The legal spear that might come to bite them in the ass as one (or a handful) of people buy up defunct pre-orders at pennies on the dollar...with BTC.

Those that aren't catching on think Frankie is after the refunds from those orders yet fail to see that isn't his winning strategy. As everyone who will eventually go to Frankie is going to have already tried the refund window. With Customer Service at BFL taking many days or weeks to get a response back (at times)...Frankie would only have to wait for it all to fall apart and people to panic.

Then collect a ton of order for pennies on the dollar, do the legal process and finally collect. How much would he collect? Could be a dollar on dollar amount. Could be alot less than that. Probably more than 10cents on each dollar.

@ Frankie I would ignore Inaba. He is just trying to derail your thread or is probably asking the mods move it or get it deleted/locked.

Your strategy took a few hours to sink in. It truly it is a beneficial strategy to all involved if BFL did go defunct. I suppose it would be better than a customer crying about losing 100%. I suspect though that you would lower your rates based on the level of panic that would be created with a failed BFL.

If I were you, I would ignore Inaba. Hes going to probably try his darndest to derail the thread. Let it stand as an open offer.

Hmm...betting on 5 units when he has thousands of orders?

I believe BFL will ship. Albeit 7 moths late and way off on their power/speed estimates, but they will ship.

My biggest grievance is that they are liars and continue to lie to their customers that funded their R&D.

Their biggest concern from day 1 has been to keep the preorder money flowing into their bank account.

I believe BFL will ship. Albeit 7 months late and way off on their power/speed estimates, but they will ship.

My biggest grievance is that they are liars and continue to lie to their customers that funded their R&D.

Their biggest concern from day 1 has been to keep the preorder money flowing into their bank account.

The problem is: What is your definition of ship? Because technically they shipped a unit to Luke. Will they ship all of the orders full blown, or will they ship a few every month lol.

No, they did not "technically ship a unit to Luke." That was a BS April fools, smoke and mirrors, get our of losing all the BTC we made on our bet kind of deal.

By shipping I mean shipping their product to every customer that still has a pre-order, I actually believe they will do this.

But, of course they will be slow with shipping and not ship anywhere close to the numbers they were suggesting (400/day)... it's BFL.... It took them like 6 months+ to ship all their FPGA preorders. I'm pretty sure they have more ASIC preorders than they did FPGAs because they've been advertising like crazy since day 1. So... I'd say AT LEAST 6 months for them to make it out of their preorder backlog.

No, they did not "technically ship a unit to Luke." That was a BS April fools, smoke and mirrors, get our of losing all the BTC we made on our bet kind of deal.

By shipping I mean shipping their product to every customer that still has a pre-order, I actually believe they will do this.

But, of course they will be slow with shipping and not ship anywhere close to the numbers they were suggesting (400/day)... it's BFL.... It took them like 6 months+ to ship all their FPGA preorders. I'm pretty sure they have more ASIC preorders than they did FPGAs because they've been advertising like crazy since day 1. So... I'd say AT LEAST 6 months for them to make it out of their preorder backlog.

You guys... don't get me wrong, I've been one of BFL's biggest critics for a long time.

The only difference in between me and you is I think they will ship eventually.

I agree they are liars, crooks, and scumbags. But I think they are liars, crooks, and scumbags that will eventually deliver a product.

We're totally on the same page about them being liars, crooks, and scumbags though.

Hell, even I'm on that page lately. It's sad too, because their designs were slick and it looked like they might actually pull Bitcoin into an era of mass consumer mining.

Instead we're being pulled into an era of mass consumer doubt.

great thread.  I think inaba got scared with my post at the top of this page.

great thread.  I think inaba got scared with my post at the top of this page.

Hell, even I'm on that page lately. It's sad too, because their concept designs were slick (speaking as a non-hardware guy) and it looked like they might actually pull Bitcoin into an era of mass consumer mining.

Instead we're being pulled into an era of mass consumer doubt.

That's what all con artist do, make shit look slick

Look at sony, they haven't even shown a picture of the PS4, and i've already got a pre-order on it. I have no doubt they'll deliver.

Yeah, thanks for that, it's not like i wanted to win a 350 BTC bet or anything.

yea, I'll bet you 500 btc inaba wouldn't have paid anyway.

Well, it's also what artists do, so that's not in itself any kind of indicator. But I admit that when they were actually producing and shipping (belated) FPGAs that it was easy to get caught up in the excitement. I had enough sense to refund my single back then though, because waiting 4 months for a mining device of any kind is retarded, even now with ASICs. The best investment so far in bitcoin has been holding bitcoin itself afterall.


I bet they'd get more if there's a PS4 app for mining!

Come on, josh. you're obviously still online. how about 350btc, 4200 units by june 1st, 2013. That gives you 4 full weeks of dicking around or whatever you've been doing for the last TEN MONTHS, 14 days of production at the 300 days you claim to be capable of, and shipping. I have an order in the xxxx3800s, i am sure others here have orders before and after me, together we will confirm whether the bet is won or lost.

Refusing this bet is admitting you won't ship at full capacity by june 1st.

Hindsight is 20/20...If i hadn't .... It was a long series of bad decisions ... I do feel a little for those forced to ....

I'll take that bet! (and then back out of it later and disappear for a few months and then realize how stupid a joke it was and then pay it later anyway)


Edit: Aaaaand we've come full circle.

So you're allowed to learn from mistakes made in haste and make a profit off of others, but if I make one, lose everything, and pay out the ass in addition to losing everything I had, I'm a scammer for life in your book?

You're a peculiar one, that's for sure.

I can't say for certain if you're a scammer for life, but i'm certainly not taking your bet :P.

I can work with that. I've actually grown very fond of the idea of "provably fair" things and escrow these days. I am starting to believe there is less and less reason to ever need to trust people for many of the things we do here on the forums. Lending is still a difficult topic, but I think a trust network like Ripple will help with that, since it's not just your reputation that you're selling, but everyone close to you as well (less likely to scam when your neighbor and family suffer from it).

I've also grown to believe that Bitcoin is far from centralized, which should be clear to anyone who paid attention to MtGox, these forums and the recent GIT pushes.

Watched an episode of American greed this guy scamed family and Friends that he knew for 30 years

Either ask for a refund or sell your preorder. What have you got on order with them and when did you order?

...since it's not just your reputation that you're selling, but everyone close to you as well (less likely to scam when your neighbor and family suffer from it).

Hopefully people using Ripple will be careful about who they vouch for (although based on the level of trust people extend to near strangers on social networks, I'm not so sure about that).

I'm the lying piece of shit? Point out where i said BFL won't ship any product. I could refute other parts of this post, but the entirety of it is based on the claim that i said "BFL won't ship any product."

It's obvious with recent propaganda videos and lack of communication that the entire scheme is ready to collapse,

In the interests of absolute transparency. I do not own any potion of butterfly labs I do have orders placed through butterfly labs. I do not believe my orders will be fulfilled.

You believe you'll make your profit from BFL shipping a functional product, i don't believe that is a possiblity.

This thread is my hedge(albeit in a less scumbag way) against butterfly labs's ponzi scheme, an obvious scam.

but i believe for most it will provide something from nothing

Ok you tool, here you go:






The list goes on.  You are a LYING. PIECE. OF. SHIT.

Put up or shut up, dirt bag.  But you won't... because you're a piece of shit.  What's even more pathetic is that you STILL maintain an order with a company you CLAIM is a scam.  The very definition of idiot, yet again.

... I will bet you the full amount you paid in BTC for your orders from BFL that your orders will be fulfilled.  If you'd rather just do the USD value, I will take that bet as well.  You escrow the BTC,  I will escrow the BTC and when your order(s) are fulfilled you lose the bet.  If your orders aren't fulfilled, you win the bet and you get back your BTC (or USD value equivalent if you prefer) - so you're 100% hedged against your losses, since you're positive BFL is a scam and you'll never see your orders....

Sure, I'll address the rest of the post just as soon as you back up your bullshit with a 500 BTC.  You claim BFL is a scam and that we will never ship a product.  I claim that BFL is not a scam and will ship a product. I am willing to escrow 500 BTC for my claim.  You escrow 500 BTC for your claim and we can move on to whether or not we'll bet on your ludicrous caveats.

My guess is that you'll just Micon-out of the bet, because, just like Bryan Micon, you are a lying piece of shit and you are unwilling to back up your claims...  You and Bryan Micon love to make all these grand pronouncements until someone calls you on it, then you deflect and hem and haw and try to weasel your way out of it. 

So until you back up your statement that "BFL is a ponzi scheme, an obvious scam" and "I do not believe my orders will be fulfilled" we have nothing to discuss other than what an idiot you are.  In fact, how about this... you want to hedge your orders.  I will bet you the full amount you paid in BTC for your orders from BFL that your orders will be fulfilled.  If you'd rather just do the USD value, I will take that bet as well.  You escrow the BTC,  I will escrow the BTC and when your order(s) are fulfilled you lose the bet.  If your orders aren't fulfilled, you win the bet and you get back your BTC (or USD value equivalent if you prefer) - so you're 100% hedged against your losses, since you're positive BFL is a scam and you'll never see your orders.

That's what you're hoping to accomplish with this ridiculous thread, right?  That's what you CLAIM.  If that's the case, then this wager is a no brainer.  Unless... you are lying?

Sure, I'll address the rest of the post just as soon as you back up your bullshit with a 500 BTC.  You claim BFL is a scam and that we will never ship a product.  I claim that BFL is not a scam and will ship a product. I am willing to escrow 500 BTC for my claim.  You escrow 500 BTC for your claim and we can move on to whether or not we'll bet on your ludicrous caveats.

My guess is that you'll just Micon-out of the bet, because, just like Bryan Micon, you are a lying piece of shit and you are unwilling to back up your claims...  You and Bryan Micon love to make all these grand pronouncements until someone calls you on it, then you deflect and hem and haw and try to weasel your way out of it. 

So until you back up your statement that "BFL is a ponzi scheme, an obvious scam" and "I do not believe my orders will be fulfilled" we have nothing to discuss other than what an idiot you are.  In fact, how about this... you want to hedge your orders.  I will bet you the full amount you paid in BTC for your orders from BFL that your orders will be fulfilled.  If you'd rather just do the USD value, I will take that bet as well.  You escrow the BTC,  I will escrow the BTC and when your order(s) are fulfilled you lose the bet.  If your orders aren't fulfilled, you win the bet and you get back your BTC (or USD value equivalent if you prefer) - so you're 100% hedged against your losses, since you're positive BFL is a scam and you'll never see your orders.

That's what you're hoping to accomplish with this ridiculous thread, right?  That's what you CLAIM.  If that's the case, then this wager is a no brainer.  Unless... you are lying?

Where's the 1000 BTC promised to charity if BFL doesn't achieve the power consumption they promised?

What is the power consumption that they promised and by when? Was it supposed to be the first batch?

Josh: Sonny, sorry calling you so late, but I have an idea.
Sonny: I'm all ears, bud.
Josh: I got the idea from some thread on BT, and I simply modified it. Since people are refunding in droves, we can fire up one of our sockpuppets to payout sixty cents on the dollar, thus you get to keep forty percent, minus my cut of course.
Sonny: Of course! I like it! Do it! By the way, how's the interesting solution to the MiniRig problem coming along?
Josh: Can't talk over the phone because it may be tapped.
Sonny: HeHe!
Josh: HeHe!
Al the Alpaca: (tapping the line) Them boy's ain't right!

Sure, I'll address the rest of the post just as soon as you back up your bullshit with a 500 BTC.  You claim BFL is a scam and that we will never ship a product.  I claim that BFL is not a scam and will ship a product. I am willing to escrow 500 BTC for my claim.  You escrow 500 BTC for your claim and we can move on to whether or not we'll bet on your ludicrous caveats.

My guess is that you'll just Micon-out of the bet, because, just like Bryan Micon, you are a lying piece of shit and you are unwilling to back up your claims...  You and Bryan Micon love to make all these grand pronouncements until someone calls you on it, then you deflect and hem and haw and try to weasel your way out of it. 

So until you back up your statement that "BFL is a ponzi scheme, an obvious scam" and "I do not believe my orders will be fulfilled" we have nothing to discuss other than what an idiot you are.  In fact, how about this... you want to hedge your orders.  I will bet you the full amount you paid in BTC for your orders from BFL that your orders will be fulfilled.  If you'd rather just do the USD value, I will take that bet as well.  You escrow the BTC,  I will escrow the BTC and when your order(s) are fulfilled you lose the bet.  If your orders aren't fulfilled, you win the bet and you get back your BTC (or USD value equivalent if you prefer) - so you're 100% hedged against your losses, since you're positive BFL is a scam and you'll never see your orders.

That's what you're hoping to accomplish with this ridiculous thread, right?  That's what you CLAIM.  If that's the case, then this wager is a no brainer.  Unless... you are lying?

Yep, I nailed it.  Your claim:

BFL won't ship any product.

Your bet:  BFL won't ship thousands of products before June 1st.  

Which is it Franky?  Will BFL ship a product or not?  Your claim is that BFL won't ship a product, you are unwilling to bet on that, but you ARE willing to bet that BFL won't ship thousands of products before June 1st, 2013.  Why would you need to put such ridiculous constraints on a bet when you believe BFL won't even ship a single product?

Oh... maybe it's because you're a lying piece of shit?  Yeah, thought so...

of course they will be slow with shipping and not ship anywhere close to the numbers they were suggesting (400/day)... it's BFL.... It took them like 6 months+ to ship all their FPGA preorders. I'm pretty sure they have more ASIC preorders than they did FPGAs because they've been advertising like crazy since day 1. So... I'd say AT LEAST 6 months for them to make it out of their preorder backlog, probably more like 9 though.

It takes a lot of GPU's to produce 25gh/sec, that's a lot of electricity for BFL to run Lukes miner.

... you are a lying piece of shit ... try to weasel your way out of it ... have nothing to discuss other than what an idiot you are. ...

Glad I didnt buy into the BFL BS

Even if they produce a great product I have a hard time supporting a company who's overall customer service is representative of how this douche bag talks.

Imagine if the product is unstable and dies 3 weeks out of the gate. Would you want to be dealing with BFL through warranty issues?
I can see that phone call to the BFL support line going something like this:

Customer: "Hello, I need to RMA my BFL ASIC unit. It stopped working yesterday and I can't get it to turn on."
BFL: "Liar! Liar! Liar! Liar! Liar! *click*"
Customer: "Hello?"

Ok you tool, here you go:

The list goes on.  You are a LYING. PIECE. OF. SHIT.

Put up or shut up, dirt bag.  But you won't... because you're a piece of shit.  What's even more pathetic is that you STILL maintain an order with a company you CLAIM is a scam.  The very definition of idiot, yet again.

This is the reason you will never be successful like Yifu and Avalon.  You are busy making bets on a message board and calling your customers lying pieces of shit.  They are busy shipping units to customers.

Wow, the absolute definition of hypocrisy here. "Lying," "dirt bag," "piece of shit," you sure seem to fit all of those descriptions yourself, Josh. Amazing that you can throw them around so easily.

WOW.

I've been idly following this whole BFL debacle for a few months, as I've got a few shares in a mining fund that's waiting on a pre-order.

The behaviour of BFL staff on this forum and others is absolutely disgraceful.

BFL, you folks have brought great, great shame to yourselves -- not through your hilariously inaccurate deadlines, but through your interactions with others on this forum.

Would you buy ANYTHING from a company whose representatives are calling others "pieces of shit" and "idiots" in public forums?

Absolutely disgraceful. Both of you should shut the fuck up until you start shipping. Until that happens, YOUR PRIORITY IS ON DELIVERING. Not mouthing off to strangers.

Your arrogance has made you the laughing stock of the entire Bitcoin community.

YOUR ARROGANCE IS WHY YOUR COMPANY WILL FAIL.

I would suggest not selling your BFL pre-orders. I guarantee you BFL will deliver. $0.10 on the dollar is very low, and likely OP is working towards buying a bunch of preorders at a really good price. If you want to buy out of the product you pre-ordered, try ebay, you might actually turn a nice profit. :)

I would suggest not selling your BFL pre-orders. I guarantee you BFL will deliver. $0.10 on the dollar is very low, and likely OP is working towards buying a bunch of preorders at a really good price. If you want to buy out of the product you pre-ordered, try ebay, you might actually turn a nice profit. :)

I guarantee you BFL will deliver.

i aree with this post owner
but i'll do better, i'll buy your order for $100,00 bucks!!!! i dont care if its a 5, 25, 50 or 1500, i just wanna help you

STFU bitch! Im bill gates from Microsoft buy Windows 8, Metro rocks you piece of shit, fuck apple.

Have they stopped fulfilling refunds or something?

@Inaba
shut up and pay 1000BTC to charity

This is not incompatible with shipping some units. +0.

It's quite possible they could fulfil some orders, but not his. +0.

Again, not incompatible with shipping some units. +0.

This is probably the closest to saying "they will not ship," but could also refer to the fact that BFL was obviously using customer preorders to fund R&D and there was never a guarantee that they would have a product. If they had failed, all of the "pre-orderers" would be completely screwed, as that money was GONE. Hence, Ponzi scheme that may have gotten lucky and actually produced a working product (sort of). +0

Wow, the absolute definition of hypocrisy here. "Lying," "dirt bag," "piece of shit," you sure seem to fit all of those descriptions yourself, Josh. Amazing that you can throw them around so easily.

Yes, BFL is refusing full bitcoin refunds while OP said he doesn't care about bitcoin/$ exchange rate.

Of course it is.  If the entire alleged "scheme" collapsed, how would one ship out units?  The definition of a collapsed "scheme" is one where it is no longer producing the result.  Therefore it would be impossible to ship units.


This has some merit until you take the context of the post, which I did not quote in it's entirety.  Therefore your statement that it's possible is invalid in light of the context.  His claim is that it's impossible for BFL to be a real company and that it's a scam.  If it were a scam, it would not ship product, therefore, once again, if BFL fulfilled any orders it would likely fulfill his order.  The only realistic assement of not fulfilling his order would be BFL not fulfilling ANY orders.

This is further backed up by the fact  that he continues to maintain orders with BFL when he could just as easily get a refund.  Therefore it's quite clear that he doesn't even believe his own lies.


I agree with this one for the most part, but again in the context of his statements and the fact that he maintains orders, it's clear that either he's the stupidest person in the world (for keeping orders with a company he doesn't believe will ship) or he's lying.  Either way, it's clear evidence that he actually believes BFL will ship product and that it's not a scam.


Unfortunately, your entire premise is false.  There is nothing "obvious" about BFL using customer perorders to fund R&D.  That's just a fantasy you've made up (or repeated, as the case may be) and there is no credible evidence to support this assertion.  You may wish it to be true and you may want to believe it to be true, but you are unable to produce any credible evidence to support your assertion, which essentially makes it false (since it is false), and the only credible source of information (whether you choose to accept it as credible or not is immaterial, since it's your ONLY source) states otherwise.


Really?  Can you point out where the hypocrisy is?  See, the problem is, you can't provide any evidence that I've done these things.  You may, again, want them to be true, but just because you want something so badly doesn't make them true.  The fact of the matter is, I have not lied or made up false information like Frankie here (or yourself, clearly)... and I can demonstrate that you have done so.  You are not able to do the same... there's a reason for that.  Frankie (and yourself) are lying, I am not.    If you disagree with this, please provide some evidence.  I've provided evidence that both you and Frankie are lying in this very post (and previous posts).  Your statement of "BFL is obviously using preorders for R & D" is an outright lie.  Frankie, we have already demonstrated his lying in great detail.

This is the reason you will never be successful like Yifu and Avalon.  You are busy making bets on a message board and calling your customers lying pieces of shit.  They are busy shipping units to customers.

I would suggest not selling your BFL pre-orders. I guarantee you BFL will deliver. $0.10 on the dollar is very low, and likely OP is working towards buying a bunch of preorders at a really good price. If you want to buy out of the product you pre-ordered, try ebay, you might actually turn a nice profit. :)

Now we have a COO who is seemingly a gambler with (speculatively) customers funds. If I were a BFL customer I would be dead serious about getting my money back. ASAP!

The fact of the matter is, I have not lied or made up false information ....

BFL never priced their products in BTC

they never received any BTC for their orders.

Nothing different than me ordering things from the US and having my sek converted into usd

@Inaba
shut up and pay 1000BTC to charity

Why does this question keep getting passed over by BFL? There should be some kind of boycott against BFL (even if they ship tomorrow) until this promise is addressed.

LOL. Josh? Seriously? You have not lied?

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/k9l5-1n-66f0.jpg

The fact of the matter is, I have not lied or made up false information...while playing water polo

WOW.

I've been idly following this whole BFL debacle for a few months, as I've got a few shares in a mining fund that's waiting on a pre-order.

The behaviour of BFL staff on this forum and others is absolutely disgraceful.

BFL, you folks have brought great, great shame to yourselves -- not through your hilariously inaccurate deadlines, but through your interactions with others on this forum.

Would you buy ANYTHING from a company whose representatives are calling others "pieces of shit" and "idiots" in public forums?

Absolutely disgraceful. Both of you should shut the fuck up until you start shipping. Until that happens, YOUR PRIORITY IS ON DELIVERING. Not mouthing off to strangers.

Your arrogance has made you the laughing stock of the entire Bitcoin community.

YOUR ARROGANCE IS WHY YOUR COMPANY WILL FAIL.

Of course it is.  If the entire alleged "scheme" collapsed, how would one ship out units?  The definition of a collapsed "scheme" is one where it is no longer producing the result.  Therefore it would be impossible to ship units.


This has some merit until you take the context of the post, which I did not quote in it's entirety.  Therefore your statement that it's possible is invalid in light of the context.  His claim is that it's impossible for BFL to be a real company and that it's a scam.  If it were a scam, it would not ship product, therefore, once again, if BFL fulfilled any orders it would likely fulfill his order.  The only realistic assement of not fulfilling his order would be BFL not fulfilling ANY orders.

This is further backed up by the fact  that he continues to maintain orders with BFL when he could just as easily get a refund.  Therefore it's quite clear that he doesn't even believe his own lies.


I agree with this one for the most part, but again in the context of his statements and the fact that he maintains orders, it's clear that either he's the stupidest person in the world (for keeping orders with a company he doesn't believe will ship) or he's lying.  Either way, it's clear evidence that he actually believes BFL will ship product and that it's not a scam.


Unfortunately, your entire premise is false.  There is nothing "obvious" about BFL using customer perorders to fund R&D.  That's just a fantasy you've made up (or repeated, as the case may be) and there is no credible evidence to support this assertion.  You may wish it to be true and you may want to believe it to be true, but you are unable to produce any credible evidence to support your assertion, which essentially makes it false (since it is false), and the only credible source of information (whether you choose to accept it as credible or not is immaterial, since it's your ONLY source) states otherwise.


Really?  Can you point out where the hypocrisy is?  See, the problem is, you can't provide any evidence that I've done these things.  You may, again, want them to be true, but just because you want something so badly doesn't make them true.  The fact of the matter is, I have not lied or made up false information like Frankie here (or yourself, clearly)... and I can demonstrate that you have done so.  You are not able to do the same... there's a reason for that.  Frankie (and yourself) are lying, I am not.    If you disagree with this, please provide some evidence.  I've provided evidence that both you and Frankie are lying in this very post (and previous posts).  Your statement of "BFL is obviously using preorders for R & D" is an outright lie.  Frankie, we have already demonstrated his lying in great detail.

Why does this question keep getting passed over by BFL? There should be some kind of boycott against BFL (even if they ship tomorrow) until this promise is addressed.

Because it's a red herring.  Idiots like PuertoRetard et al keep trotting it out.  However, the deal was if we miss our power targets... according to them, we haven't shipped yet.  So we aren't due to pay the charity bounty (which, as I've stated, we intend to pay) yet... however, because it's something they can trot out, they whine and cry and like to point out that we missed our power targets.  Never mind the fact that in the same breath they cry about how we haven't shipped yet.

Thank you for addressing it directly. Appreciated.

and yet he wonders why we keep bringing it up. It was never addressed until now.

Lol fail harder josh.

No matter how much I might ever fail in my life, I can never, ever fail has hard as you do on a daily basis.  If nothing else, I can take solace in that.  I would hate to be you.

What is the point of responses like these?  Are you 5?  My six year old is more mature.

Highly unprofessional, but at least we have on record intent to pay.

Because it's a red herring.  Idiots like PuertoRetard et al keep trotting it out.  However, the deal was if we miss our power targets... according to them, we haven't shipped yet.  So we aren't due to pay the charity bounty (which, as I've stated, we intend to pay) yet... however, because it's something they can trot out, they whine and cry and like to point out that we missed our power targets.  Never mind the fact that in the same breath they cry about how we haven't shipped yet.

So which is it, have we shipped and thus owe the bounty or have we not shipped, and therefore don't owe the bounty yet?  You can't have it both ways!  But either way, it's like we are going to just send funds to a random charity.  We have to decide which charity or charities are going to be recipients and frankly that's not nearly as high a priority as, you know... actually shipping product like people keep screaming about.

But logic and common sense has never been PuertoRetard and the crew's strong suit... just rhetoric and monumental stupidity.

I notice Frankie has shut up now, so mission accomplished.  It's always amazing how the bright stabbing light of logic seems to shut up idiots and trolls alike... although many times it fails on the latter, just witness Creative-I-Don't-Need-Evidence-To-Form-an_opnion-X and PuertoTroll.  Forgot truth and logic when it comes to their nonsense!

Why have you not donated the 1000BTC to charity?

Oh... and it keeps BFL in the news, which directly translates to sales.  You do understand that everytime someone links to one of Micons wonderful video's or a post where I hurt some poor trolls feelings, people can't believe it, do some research on this crazy company called BFL and end up purchasing a product, right?  Call it a hobby of mine.

It's always amazing how the bright stabbing light of logic seems to shut up idiots and trolls alike... although many times it fails on the latter, just witness Creative-I-Don't-Need-Evidence-To-Form-an_opnion-X and PuertoTroll.  Forgot truth and logic when it comes to their nonsense!

lol @ Josh

Don't forget to bear witness to me calling you a liar last December for saying you expect to receive chips mid December and ship before New Years Eve. Oh and don't forget to include the relevant links to me calling you a liar for spewing your 1w/Gh/s fairy tale power consumption "simulation" nonsense.

Six months late and your entire product line of fail is still not shipped and still you're here talking smack about everybody that sees through your bs...what a clown. ;)

Oh... and it keeps BFL in the news, which directly translates to sales.

THere's nothing professional about this forum. BFL has given up on Bitcointalk, so don't expect any official communication from BFL here.  The only thing you get here is me, because I like to prod the trolls and laugh at how they flail about in indignation.

Dude, I don't know you and you don't know me.  But you should take the advice of people in these forums and if you are indeed legitimate and intend to deliver your product you really should stop talking.  You should not be the front of any organization, you are too impulsive.  You wreak of con-man.  

That you do not stop posting and instead send out some product is disturbing, to say the least.  People have told you this before and you come back time and again only to act the exact same way.  Being impetuous is fine when you are young but you are representing a company in a public forum who appears to have taken millions of dollars from people and you troll these forums and request more ad space.  I am concerned you are a charlatan.  

Please go away and do some work and come back and prove me wrong.  In the interim I am going to produce a team of volunteers to produce the chip you propose to have produced.  I will not bet you, but it won't surprise me if I can get to market before you.

Let the games begin.  (check my signature).

Because it's a red herring.  Idiots like PuertoRetard et al keep trotting it out.  However, the deal was if we miss our power targets... according to them, we haven't shipped yet.  So we aren't due to pay the charity bounty (which, as I've stated, we intend to pay) yet... however, because it's something they can trot out, they whine and cry and like to point out that we missed our power targets.  Never mind the fact that in the same breath they cry about how we haven't shipped yet.

So which is it, have we shipped and thus owe the bounty or have we not shipped, and therefore don't owe the bounty yet?  You can't have it both ways!  But either way, it's like we are going to just send funds to a random charity.  We have to decide which charity or charities are going to be recipients and frankly that's not nearly as high a priority as, you know... actually shipping product like people keep screaming about.

But logic and common sense has never been PuertoRetard and the crew's strong suit... just rhetoric and monumental stupidity.

I notice Frankie has shut up now, so mission accomplished.  It's always amazing how the bright stabbing light of logic seems to shut up idiots and trolls alike... although many times it fails on the latter, just witness Creative-I-Don't-Need-Evidence-To-Form-an_opnion-X and PuertoTroll.  Forgot truth and logic when it comes to their nonsense!

Why don't YOU go away?  I have no interest in proving you wrong, that would imply that I care if you believe me or not.  I don't.  I have never cared.  You mean exactly nothing to me.  Your belief in me does not have any sway over my daily life and the fact that you think it does shows what an self entitled narcissist you truly are.  

Yes, I know you.  I know you very well.  I have dealt with hundreds of people just like you in the past 25 years.

If you spent half the time and effort you spend on posting at bitcointalk on doing your "job", you would probably be shipping by now... theoretically speaking.

This is why you're an idiot.  Read you post again so you can recognize your stupidity in the future.

Read you post again so you can recognize your stupidity in the future.

Read you post again so you can recognize your stupidity in the future.

Just so we are clear, your claim is that if I spent a sum total of about 20 minutes over the past couple weeks doing... something other than posting (what exactly) we'd "be shipping by now."  So you're saying that we are 20 minutes away from shipping, right?

Like I said, please re-read your post so you'll realize why what you post is so stupid.

Since, according to you, everyone is an idiot you're aware of that it takes more time than that, counting both reading and writing. Now, you made almost 800 posts since last october and since you're so smart you do the math.
Don't you think you could had spent your time on something more important?

I don't get how you can stand trying to argue with these people Josh! they make new accounts to bash you faster than you can type! It is somewhat entertaining however so keep enraging those trolls!

Since, according to you, everyone is an idiot you're aware of that it takes more time than that, counting both reading and writing. Now, you made almost 800 posts since last october and since you're so smart you do the math.

Don't you think you could had spent your time on something more important?

I've been here two years and even though BFL appears to have shipped FPGAs and ASICs I would never in a million years support a company who's front man is a an admitted troll like Inaba.

A lot can be said about Josh communication skills and diplomacy but the other side of the fence keeps pulling such retarded stuff out of their ass at times I don't think they have any say on the matter :P

So now we have external confirmation that BFL actually has a working product, let's see how many of you comes crawling back in secret, tho most of you probably never cancelled your pre-orders to begin with.

Truer words have never been spoken, sir.

How about you lay some BTC on that in the form of a bet?  Lets say 500 BTC?  How many units do you consider as being valid for "shipped?"  5 units?    I'm more than willing to do escrow.

Let me guess... you're going to pull a Micon and not take the bet or put weird caveats on it, even though your claim is that BFL is a scam and/or that BFL won't ship... but you're not willing to bet on it.

I never made a wager that threatened suicide.  Please provide evidence that I made such a wager.

https://i.imgur.com/PVslWzc.png

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/632-getting-ready-april.html#post9395

Cue bitching that this is not a wager.

So you perpetuated a lie.

Shall we talk about how you, *cough*, "shipped" that dev unit to Luke?

How exactly do you get from "You're and idiot because of X" to "Everyone is an idiot?"  Oh... it's because you're an idiot.  You can't seem to understand the difference between a the general and the specific.


Let me guess, you're an hunt and peck "typist" and it takes you 10 minutes to write each sentence, right?  That's why you think it takes me an inordinate amount of time to write a post, right?  But, do tell, what is it you think I could have spent my time doing since last October that I haven't already done and have been doing?  Do you seriously believe I should spend every waking moment of my life doing "something" (which is as of yet undefined) related to ASICs?  Is that the position you're taking?  Really?


Suuuure you won't.  I suspect you already are or will end up just like Frizz and Frankie.  Frothing at the mouth at how you hate BFL and you think they are a scam while handing over an order, because deep down you know your words are bullshit; You just can't bring yourself to admit that all your vocal sputum was nothing more than a whiny, self entitled verbal tantrum that you're too embarrassed to fess up to.

Sure, why don't you quote some posts of mine on the subject.

A) It's not a wager
B) The probability turned out to be zero, so even if it were a wager, it didn't happen.

So you perpetuated a lie.  Thanks for confirming proving my point.

How exactly do you get from "You're and idiot because of X" to "Everyone is an idiot?"  Oh... it's because you're an idiot.  You can't seem to understand the difference between a the general and the specific.

Let me guess, you're an hunt and peck "typist" and it takes you 10 minutes to write each sentence, right?  That's why you think it takes me an inordinate amount of time to write a post, right?  But, do tell, what is it you think I could have spent my time doing since last October that I haven't already done and have been doing?  Do you seriously believe I should spend every waking moment of my life doing "something" (which is as of yet undefined) related to ASICs?  Is that the position you're taking?  Really?

Suuuure you won't.  I suspect you already are or will end up just like Frizz and Frankie.  Frothing at the mouth at how you hate BFL and you think they are a scam while handing over an order, because deep down you know your words are bullshit; You just can't bring yourself to admit that all your vocal sputum was nothing more than a whiny, self entitled verbal tantrum that you're too embarrassed to fess up to.

...
I'm just saying that there's better way to spend your time than sitting here and bitch on everyone... like getting professional help perhaps, because you are truly mentally disturbed.
...

A) It's not a wager
B) The probability turned out to be zero, so even if it were a wager, it didn't happen.

So you perpetuated a lie.  Thanks for confirming proving my point.

Unfortunately, your entire premise is false.  There is nothing "obvious" about BFL using customer perorders to fund R&D.  That's just a fantasy you've made up (or repeated, as the case may be) and there is no credible evidence to support this assertion.  You may wish it to be true and you may want to believe it to be true, but you are unable to produce any credible evidence to support your assertion, which essentially makes it false (since it is false), and the only credible source of information (whether you choose to accept it as credible or not is immaterial, since it's your ONLY source) states otherwise.

Really?  Can you point out where the hypocrisy is?  See, the problem is, you can't provide any evidence that I've done these things.  You may, again, want them to be true, but just because you want something so badly doesn't make them true.  The fact of the matter is, I have not lied or made up false information like Frankie here (or yourself, clearly)... and I can demonstrate that you have done so.  You are not able to do the same... there's a reason for that.  Frankie (and yourself) are lying, I am not.    If you disagree with this, please provide some evidence.  I've provided evidence that both you and Frankie are lying in this very post (and previous posts).  Your statement of "BFL is obviously using preorders for R & D" is an outright lie.  Frankie, we have already demonstrated his lying in great detail.

It's somewhere in this clusterfuck:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=163261.msg1713429#msg1713429

So did you or did you not ship a unit to Luke before April?

You're right that I have no direct evidence that customer funds were used, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty strong. The best way to generate orders is to advertise that you have a product to ship "soon," all the while collecting more and more preorders and pushing the date back further. That gives you lots of (ever increasing) funds to work with while you are still designing the chip, PCBs, placing orders for same, etc. If these funds are in escrow somewhere until units begin shipping, then I applaud BFL for doing that. But if that's the case, I sure hope for your customers' sakes that your sources of investment capital have very deep pockets. It's tough to operate a company of your size for 8 months with ZERO income.

I take that back. Actually, you could use some of Luke's preorder money now, since you "shipped" him a "single" to your lab.


I believe you lied to customers about your "shipping soon" multiple times. I believe you were fully aware that you would NOT in fact be "shipping soon," and if you did believe it, well you are a bigger idiot than anyone you've been calling an idiot on this forum, and have no business being an officer of that company. Because of that lying (to customers and potential customers), that clearly also makes you a "dirt bag" and "piece of shit." Come to think of it, either way, you have no business being an officer of that company.

Really?  Please point it out?  Or are you lying about that?

I'm asking you to back up your statements with evidence.  You are lacking said evidence while you're making statements that are not factual.  I am attempting to force you into providing said evidence to prove that you aren't making shit up.

_I_ know you're making shit up, but not everyone else does.  It's better if you make this clear to everyone than me just saying you're making shit up.  I notice that you still haven't provided any posts for any type of wager I have allegedly made, according to you.

They did. I have an invoice from BFL with a clearly stated price both in $ AND bitcoin!


They did. I've sent bitcoins to the bitcoin address they've pointed me to. I have a screenshot!


It is very different. Read something about credit card payment processing first and stop comparing apples to oranges!

If I pay $ and my credit card is run in SEK it is MY BANK (I've signed contract with when my cc was issued) that is converting the SEK in $ and IS sending $$. The TRANSACTION currency is $$. This is why refund is in $. While paying in bitcoins the TRANSACTION currency is bitcoins. The refund must be in bitcoins.

BFL crooks usually say customers choose to pay through Bitpay. No! It is BFL that choose to accept customer' bitcoins through BitPay! BFL company is a customer of BitPay, not me. I don't have as a customer any contractual obligations or contractual relations with BitPay. For instance, can I pay BFL through the PayPal option, if BFL have such an option on their website, without being a PayPal customer? Of course, I can't!!! I paid the exact amount in bitcoins to the bitcoin address BFL specified on their invoice. It is BFL's choice to use BitPay's service to receive bitcoin payments from customers. BFL customers don't have any control on how BFL handle their bitcoin payments, how much bitcoins they convert in $, and how much they keep in bitcoin.

Quite important sub-point: One bit of the inner workings of BFL that I explicitly got permission to publish is that almost all bitcoins received via bitpay for preorders etc. are converted to USD by bitpay and deposited into BFL’s bank account. This is important because that account is a corporate account with per-user limits, multi-signature requirements and all the standard protections enforced by the bank that keep the CEO of any company from emptying the company’s bank account. The small fraction that remains denominated in bitcoin is only what they need to process refunds reasonably quickly. Almost all of BFL’s funds are secured against embezzlement the same way most companies’ funds are.

BFL is also painfully aware of the heavy delays customers experienced with their FGPA lineup and I’ve received great assurances – as well as more secretive evidence – that things are going to be different this time around. While I can’t share a lot of details I can say that many of the secret bits and pieces revolved around moving manufacturing processes that had been external previously into internal hands.

Really?  Please point it out?  Or are you lying about that?

Skeeter:
Hello,

I just realized I placed an order and never did get to pay, I see my order # is 100015146. I have $200 in paypal atm, how can I pay? Or do I wait til our batch # is up?

BFL Brian:
We have changed our product line and the model that you have chosen will only be shipped if a paid preorder was placed before April 4th, 2013 is in our preorder queue.

We are not shipping ASICs yet as we are still testing the chips.  Prepayment is the only method by which your preorder is entered into the queue. We are working to start shipping in the next couple weeks and have a backlog in the queue, so new pre-orders, regardless of product or power consumption, will likely ship sometime in late July or early August, sooner if possible.

We ship in strict order of payment date with absolutely no way to move ahead in the queue.
 Thank you for your interest in Butterfly Labs, and our products.
 Brian

Skeeter:
Ok, so can I pay now still?

Even if I pay now then I basically am in the back of the line still, my interest early on does not give me any precedence? (I'm just wonder I won't bitch or complain).

BFL Brian:
Please visit the website and place your preorder.
Thank you, Brian

Skeeter:
It won't let me checkout, the cart is "empty"?

BFL Brian:
The previous products are no longer available for preorder.
 Please preorder the new models available now.
Thank you, Brian

Skeeter:
So order number #100015146 is no longer valid?

BFL Brian:
Do you have a payment transaction number or receipt?

Skeeter:
Are you asking if I have already payed? No I have not, I ordered and wanted to pay, I think the conversation chain is in the thread (email). I could not transfer funds quick enough, lost track of time with life and all and just never paid. When I log into my account under this email, I can see my order that I placed but never payed for.

                Recent Orders
                View All
                Order #    Date    Ship To    Order Total    Status    
                100015146    2/14/13    SkeeterSkeeter $163.00    Pending    View Order

So I placed the order just never got around to paying it. I cannot pay now? Must I now pay more?

BFL Brian:
This product is no longer available to preorder.
Procrastination is the grave in which opportunity is buried.

Skeeter:
So can I not pay the price for when I placed the order, and be put at the end of the line?

I believed in you guys when you were semi-pro now that you've gone pro its like you just took my BFL trading card and ripped it in half. Broke my heart.. </3 You guys sold out, and haven't even gotten the cup yet :(

Who cares right, y'all filthy rich; if it ships.

Guess I'll just wait and see if it does ship, meantime put my $163 into btc and make a profit waiting for you to send it.

Brian:
Thank you,
We want to be here for you with healthy mining products for years to come.
 Brian

Skeeter:
Trollcity.

Me: I had a pre-order #xxx but didnt pay, can I pay now and be put in the back of the line
BFL: No, you have to place a new pre-order the product changed and costs more now, sorry we cannot honor your pre-order. That is why your cannot pay on the site. Seeing as I am a customer service rep, I have placed you a pre-order for your email and made a way for you to pay!

Me: I had a pre-order #xxx but didnt pay, can I pay now and be put in the back of the line
BFL: (gibberish about the product and how they can't put a IC on a PCB in the time they thought they could)
ME: So I cant pay
BFL: Yes you can just pay us on the site
Me: I cant
BFL: you have to preorder the item, then you can pay
Me: I do have a pre-order its #xxx, is it valid?
BFL: Did you pay
Me: Jesus christ, no. WTF do you think we are talking about?
BFL: Sucks, you should've paid before April 5th (we didnt tell you that, so we can make more $$ on people who still want the product but have not paid)
Me: fuckers

...
If I may show my little piece about BFL and display how much of a whinny prick customer I am they hate so much.
...

Skeeter:
Hello,

I just realized I placed an order and never did get to pay, I see my order # is 100015146. I have $200 in paypal atm, how can I pay? Or do I wait til our batch # is up?
.....

he didn't contact the company for the to preach at him:
"Procrastination is the grave in which opportunity is buried"

unprofessional
uncalled for
amateur

He didn't contract the company.

because their responses were (and remain)
unprofessional
uncalled for
amateur

There's a reason "should" is the first word of your quote.  lrn2grmr

Holy fuck you are right!!  You never committed to anything except being a total douche who's miserable with projections... you'd think you were getting paid to be a project manager but you were just getting paid to keep pre-orders coming in!

Fantastic job - well done

How's that MiniRig doing?

Nope, I did not commit to that, either.  When I commit to something, you'll know it.  

PS - I'm not a project manager and never have been (paid or otherwise).  Battin' 0 here partner.

What a humble man OP, you won't find many of this kind. He'd pay 10 cents of each dollar you are owed, it's a hero of our time.

You gotta give him credit for coming up with the post.  Kudo's to capitalism.

In this narrow and specific case I would have to agree with Josh, you are not the type of customer which any company would desire.

lazy doesn't get it, but I feel your pain skeeter.  we expect a certain level of customer service from companies and clearly bfl lacks in that department.

Now multiply that by 1000 and that's what we have to deal with regularly.  Whiny people who want a free handout.  See next reply for more on this:


Perhaps oddly (for you) I agree with your statement 100%.  You have been raised to believe that the customer is always right and you think that a company should treat you like royalty, no matter how poorly you behave or how unreasonable your demands are.  It's ok, it's part of your culture and a horrible, horrible business modality that is held over from the 80's.  Modern businesses are just now starting to realize that treating customers like royalty and bending over backwards to pacify them is detrimental not only to current business but also future business.  Not only does it cost more money to retain poor customers, but it encourages other customers to whine and pitch a fit to get their way, perpetuating a horrible cycle.  It also forces an ongoing cost to maintain that customer that is often in excess, usually many times over, in what revenue that customer brings in.  

As much as I hate using Paypal as an example, they have got it right, from a profit driven perspective.  If you are a troublesome user, they will send you an email saying "We no longer want to do business with you.  We won't discuss why. blah blah blah"  Then they will close your account and that's the end of it.  They simply don't care.  Try to call them and ask, they'll tell you they won't discuss it.  The reason is: You are unprofitable.  They don't want you.  Ever.  Hate them as much as you want (I do), but they absolutely dominate the industry with regards to profits.  This business modality is a large part as to why.

At the end of the day, when you tally the balance sheet, it's far better to jettison those customers than it is to keep them.  Now, if your goal is to be altruistic and a philanthropic or non-profit company, then perhaps that's the way to go.  If your goal is to be a profitable company:  See ya!

And what about the customers that ARE profitable? You have given them equally poor service than people who have had issues paying you or are trying to get a free discount.

It is unethical to package totally vacuous "predictions" with optimistic hedges, and it is insulting to point at your tentative language and shrug your shoulders as though you are relieved of responsibility when customers ask you why you cannot deliver. Keep in mind that I am only referring to your half year of "we're shipping soon," I'll leave it to someone else to fight the product specification battle.

Yeah, you guys offer the most competitive prices and there is high demand for your product. Yes, this gives you a lot of license to lie and screw up while still pulling big profits. This is obviously your business model and it is completely transparent.

...
I have apologized many times over for that.  I am, however, tired of apologizing.  It does not mollify anyone ...

"I am, however, tired of apologizing."
Unfortunate. When it's appropriate one should. Whether tired of it or not.

However, I do recognize that one blanket apology can deal with many offenses.

I requested once that you apologize to me. And specifically substantiated why it was due. From that point you never again posted in that thread to my knowledge.

"It does not mollify anyone"

An over broad generalization, IMO.

...In this case, it's not overbroad...

Then stop demanding hard and fast timeframes for things that we can't give hard and fast timeframes for.  Simple as that.  

Perhaps oddly (for you) I agree with your statement 100%.  You have been raised to believe that the customer is always right and you think that a company should treat you like royalty, no matter how poorly you behave or how unreasonable your demands are.  It's ok, it's part of your culture and a horrible, horrible business modality that is held over from the 80's.  Modern businesses are just now starting to realize that treating customers like royalty and bending over backwards to pacify them is detrimental not only to current business but also future business.  Not only does it cost more money to retain poor customers, but it encourages other customers to whine and pitch a fit to get their way, perpetuating a horrible cycle.  It also forces an ongoing cost to maintain that customer that is often in excess, usually many times over, in what revenue that customer brings in.  

As much as I hate using Paypal as an example, they have got it right, from a profit driven perspective.  If you are a troublesome user, they will send you an email saying "We no longer want to do business with you.  We won't discuss why. blah blah blah"  Then they will close your account and that's the end of it.  They simply don't care.  Try to call them and ask, they'll tell you they won't discuss it.  The reason is: You are unprofitable.  They don't want you.  Ever.  Hate them as much as you want (I do), but they absolutely dominate the industry with regards to profits.  This business modality is a large part as to why.

At the end of the day, when you tally the balance sheet, it's far better to jettison those customers than it is to keep them.  Now, if your goal is to be altruistic and a philanthropic or non-profit company, then perhaps that's the way to go.  If your goal is to be a profitable company:  See ya!

In this case, it's not overbroad... just look at all the rambling, frothing complaining that goes on here against BFL.  No amount of apologizing will silence the people who just like to complain and stir up trouble.  They aren't interested in apologies, just drama.  CreativeX, PuertoLibre, Smoothie, et al.  They are irrational and motivated purely by drama.  Common sense, logic and rationality was lost on them long, long ago.

Josh wont answer. He's too busy mining the rigs on his pool. I will never recommend his company for mining. Actually I said this before and that is I'm going to ltc. I hope more competition comes in and shows how real companies are run. I can't see how that track record of deceit has allowed this company get so far. I thought only government can operate this bad and last this long.

Fuck you Josh

butterfly answer me everyday
if u use forum u wont receive any answer
if u hav any question, just use facebook and u'll get your answer within 24 hours

my last question

--------
i've placed a order some time ago, is it possible to upgrade my order adding some more items and not losing my place on shipping date?
Mi piace · · 10 ore fa

    Stephan Händel oh yes, woulda be nice to know
    Mi piace · Rispondi · 9 ore fa
    Butterfly Labs No. In fairness to all of our customers you would have to order more now seperately. Thank you for your order and understanding.
    Mi piace · Rispondi · 9 ore fa

You just don't seem to understand and I really am not the type to mock people as its not in my nature in real life. I know most customers of BFL have no idea of their past dealings as I was one of them. BFL has lied over so many issues that I personally have witnessed that in my good conscience can never allow my money to reach them. I refuse to support them in anyway.

You seem happy with them and I wish you luck. However if you offer more money you always get what you need.

Never hate people that try to warn others. Always listen and make your own mind.

Despite thousands of warning signs that BFL is a scam if you decide to pre-order one of their products always pay by a credit card. NEVER use bitcoins! BFL fraudsters do not honor full bitcoin refunds!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=136615.0

I say multiple times "We aren't sure when <fill in the blank>" and a chorus of people respond back "BUT GIVE US AN ESTIMATE!!!!"  Repeat that about 20x and that describes the past 6+ months. 

In this case, it's not overbroad... just look at all the rambling, frothing complaining that goes on here against BFL.  No amount of apologizing will silence the people who just like to complain and stir up trouble.  They aren't interested in apologies, just drama.  CreativeX, PuertoLibre, Smoothie, et al.  They are irrational and motivated purely by drama.  Common sense, logic and rationality was lost on them long, long ago. 

"Now multiply that by 1000 and that's what we have to deal with regularly.  Whiny people who want a free handout. "

 "no matter how poorly you behave or how unreasonable your demands are.  "

" The reason is: You are unprofitable. "

I'm asking you to back up your statements with evidence.  You are lacking said evidence while you're making statements that are not factual.  I am attempting to force you into providing said evidence to prove that you aren't making shit up.

_I_ know you're making shit up, but not everyone else does.  It's better if you make this clear to everyone than me just saying you're making shit up.  I notice that you still haven't provided any posts for any type of wager I have allegedly made, according to you.

He will not provide ANY evidence. You know why? Because he is a TOOL!!!

Was passing through and saw this ridiculous topic and had to comment.

All some of these idiots do is call "scam". They seem to get a kick out of it. You are wasting your time with him and some of the guys on here. They only act as effective timewasters. I have decided to ignore trolls and tools altogether and concentrate on building a business.
Besides , bitcoin is much much larger Bitcointalk.org. Why do I say that? Well 80 percent of my customers don't come from here at all.

Keep up the good work.

Regards

Good work is...

1. Being 7 months late.

2. Missing Dozens of deadlines given.

3. Missed power/speed specs

4. Trolling forums and cussing at customers

5. Doubling  device costs.

6. ...(anyone care to add to this list of GOOD WORK Josh has done?)

Be quiet Troll :-)

That was a pointless post. Clever example of your creativity or lack thereof!!!
I'll concentrate on being productive. So should you.


By the way - being late doesn't constitute a scam. Being late does not defer the fact "good work" is being done.

To lie to customers by using deceptive advertising to dupe customers into giving money on products that don't exist. Raising prices along with cancelling peoples prepaid express shipping.

I believe he is doing a service to others that may not know how criminal this company is. Not to mention the criminal origins of one of the co founders.

Yea you would not understand a scam even if one were to point it out to you.

Here is some evidence of working of the scam. just a glimpse.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114329.msg2139947#msg2139947

Won't expect a reply since your so busy.

If you have an order with BFL then simply cancel. Instead of spreading conjecture and pure blind anger around. I urge all those who are not happy to cancel their BFL orders. But not they won't. They just want a forum to rant and bitcointalk seems the perfect oasis for that.

If you don't have an order with them then I don't what you are attempting to prove.

You don't know what I'm attempting to do? Right
Ok Fine.

What are you attempting to do by telling someone he's a troll? Did he lie in his post? Did I lie?

You see what I am attempting to do now?

If people are not happy CANCEL YOUR ORDER. Posting continuous back and forth gibberish does nothing good for all.

Sorry I hurt your feeling.

On a more pertinent point. Customers have the ability to vote with their wallets. This thread is the epitome of what is wrong with bitcoin talk. Paranoia, hysteria and sheer lack or respect.

If people are not happy CANCEL YOUR ORDER. Posting continuous back and forth gibberish does nothing good for all.

Regards 

This thread is the epitome of what is wrong with bitcoin talk. Paranoia, hysteria and sheer lack or respect.

This thread is the epitome of what is wrong with bitcointalk, huh inaba-lover?  Let's see...

Troll (you) comes in and bumps a thread that died weeks ago with this enlightening ditty:

"Was passing through and saw this ridiculous topic and had to comment."

Well gee that's fantastic.  I'm glad you came by to bring this thread back to life and do you stop there, no, you start to defend BFL.  Then you get on the "Bitcointalk Community" like the problem in this equation isn't BFL but it's the COMMUNITY who is at fault.  You are an idiot troll, inaba clone, go away.

We in the COMMUNITY welcome information like this because from the outside all the people can see is BFL spending their old customers money to ear new customers all the while not actually delivering a product they promised almost a year ago.  It is CLEAR that BFL is a scam and run by a TOOL who was already convicted ONCE of stealing peoples money.  The CEO of BFL is a known mail fraud scammer who admitted to stealing 20+ million from individuals.  BFL is the latest con game.  

Here, I made it easy for you... you don't even need to read the first 33 pages, just read this:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.640



(I'ts always amazing to see these new members who have only been here a month attacking the community, instead of taking the time to do the research to understand why SO many people are pissed off at BFL).  

Ok, so BFl is NOT a con... oh... ok....

Didn't actually read it did you... Not possible because you can't possibly read that quickly.  But you go on and attack me, like I'm the problem mr troll.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.640

And, like I tried to explain, quoting the entire comment makes the thread unreadable.  Of course that's what you prefer right inaba clone?


I have an idea, cloudhasher, rather than come here and attack the community as you have perhaps you should be honest about the reason you WISH BFL was legitimate:


"We have 3 mini rigs on pre order with BFL. This represents a massive $90,000 investment"

Your Order #100019552 (placed on March 5, 2013 4:50:53 AM CST)
...Hello,
I am not sure that I responded back to you or not but wanted to let you know that we have received your payment..
I have attached your order information.
Dave
Butterfly Labs, Inc.
Account Manager
913-271-6744

On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 4:53 AM, <emmanuel@cloudhashing.com> wrote:
Hi David,
Receipt for my payment. Should take 3 working days to reach you
Please watch out for it.
Kind regards


But why you would attack the community is beyond me.  


Wow dude, you were accused of being a scammer on your VERY FIRST DAY in these forums:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=163741.0

No wonder you want to defend Inaba... you are his customer and just like him you've been accused of being a scammer.

Sorry if your heart just fell on the floor and exploded cloudhasher.  That article https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.640 is a killer.

You would rather I be like you and call everything a scam?

What are you attempting to do by telling someone he's a troll? Did he lie in his post? Did I lie?

You see what I am attempting to do now?

Yes read it months ago.

You seem to get good satisfaction out of another man's past errors. Tutt tutt

You are so sad!

Yes, you did lie.  You do repeatedly in every post.  What is your point?  We already know you're a liar and a troll, thanks for continuing to confirm it though.

I'm sure that's true... because that's all you have.  Goofy pictures and the same rhetoric and lies you spew over and over. 

Cool story, bro.

What 'lies' did i 'spew over and over' then?
Or is this just a blatant generalisation of anything not to your liking?

The picture came to mind because of your way of communicating. You are autojoking.

Sorry I hurt your feeling.

On a more pertinent point. Customers have the ability to vote with their wallets. This thread is the epitome of what is wrong with bitcoin talk. Paranoia, hysteria and sheer lack or respect.

If people are not happy CANCEL YOUR ORDER. Posting continuous back and forth gibberish does nothing good for all.

Regards  

I'm sure that's true... because that's all you have.  Goofy pictures and the same rhetoric and lies you spew over and over. 

Cool story, bro.

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.

Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. David Dunning and Justin Kruger of Cornell University conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others".

Dunning and Kruger proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:


    tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
    fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
    fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
    recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they are exposed to training for that skill.

You would rather I be like you and call everything a scam?

So wishing BFL to be legitimate makes me a bad person?

Give me a break. Either put up real proof that BFL are thieves a d won't deliver or plainly shut up. It's one thing to complain about delay, another to call a perfectly legitimate operation a scam.

Regards

I'm actually closer to calling your operation a scam.

Your website claims to sell contracts but the actual contract is nowhere to be found.

It's obvious with recent propaganda videos and lack of communication that the entire scheme is ready to collapse, i have enough information on the major players to initiate my lawsuit once everything goes south, but don't have enough owed to me to make it worth the initial investment for legal counsel.

What an incredibly stupid thread!

There is very little chance of BFL being honest enough to refund everybody's orders...