Seasteading

[BADecker]

The first seasteads will be more like individuals building a log cabin in the woods. Then more people also building their cabins in nearby woods. Some deciding to be next to each other, some preferring to be on their own. As it grows bigger there will be those that congregate more in one area while others still choose to be far enough away. There will always be the option to be far enough away. That makes it very difficult for a dictatorship to thrive.

So more like people choosing to move to Alaska to be free. Without the cold but with other challenges.

The mega super structures are a long way from happening and likely slow down seasteading by being the main focus and drain of money that never results in anything being built.

Agree. Organic (and relatively slow at the outset) growth is the only way to establish this sort of global movement.  Similar in a way to BTC.

Planning and centralisation always put a spanner in the works, and can only have a use in later stages.

The thing you are talking about is do-it-yourself. When you do it yourself, you don't need any agreement. But as soon as you hire someone else to do it for you, you need an agreement with them. Consider all over the world where someone hires a contractor to build it for him. There's a contract, a governing piece of paper.

If you build your own island yourself, and later get together with other folks to attach your island to theirs, you need an agreement of sorts. The agreement governs the operation. It's a government.

Seasteading has an official agreement with French Polynesia, doesn't it? If you join Seasteading, you do so according to the agreement. The agreement governs. The only way there isn't a government is if you do it yourself.

Think the government through well before you sign on the line.

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[Elwar]

The first seasteads will be more like individuals building a log cabin in the woods. Then more people also building their cabins in nearby woods. Some deciding to be next to each other, some preferring to be on their own. As it grows bigger there will be those that congregate more in one area while others still choose to be far enough away. There will always be the option to be far enough away. That makes it very difficult for a dictatorship to thrive.

So more like people choosing to move to Alaska to be free. Without the cold but with other challenges.

The mega super structures are a long way from happening and likely slow down seasteading by being the main focus and drain of money that never results in anything being built.

Agree. Organic (and relatively slow at the outset) growth is the only way to establish this sort of global movement.  Similar in a way to BTC.

Planning and centralisation always put a spanner in the works, and can only have a use in later stages.

The thing you are talking about is do-it-yourself. When you do it yourself, you don't need any agreement. But as soon as you hire someone else to do it for you, you need an agreement with them. Consider all over the world where someone hires a contractor to build it for him. There's a contract, a governing piece of paper.

If you build your own island yourself, and later get together with other folks to attach your island to theirs, you need an agreement of sorts. The agreement governs the operation. It's a government.

Seasteading has an official agreement with French Polynesia, doesn't it? If you join Seasteading, you do so according to the agreement. The agreement governs. The only way there isn't a government is if you do it yourself.

Think the government through well before you sign on the line.

A single company creating a single seastead is working on an agreement with French Polynesia.

Imagine the first person to come up with the concept of a "house". They go to the chief of the little village and negotiate a location for their new technology of 4 walls and a roof. There is an official agreement in that village for a house that is to be built. It will be amazing. All of your dreams will come true.

And then there's another guy thousands of miles away with the same idea. He doesn't even discuss it with his village chief, he just goes into the woods and builds a small house. Or even...has his friends build him a house. In exchange they get some coconuts or some meat from his last catch.

Then his friends decide to build houses near his house.

No government is needed just because a house is built. Same for seasteading. Just build it and live in it. If you want to interact with your neighbors, interact. If you don't like how your neighbor interacts with you...move your house.

It's really that simple.

Seasteading creates these images of fantasy land where all of your dreams come true. That's why I won't be talking about the project I'm working on because unless someone sees it in action the concept of seasteading comes with all sorts of baggage. People either believe it solves all problems or creates all problems. They already have an image in their head of what seasteading is. And all of those ideas are different from everyone else's ideas. But their idea is the best...because reasons.

[Blueoyster]

I like the idea.If I could afford it I would give it a go for sure.There was an ICO related to seasteading few months ago, but it didn't turn out it seems. I haven't checked what really happened and why it failed, Elwar do you know why? NOt enough funds raised?

I liked that idea, not only because you can be quite independent that way and avoid lots of land related problems, but because if the seasteading project would be related to crpyto it could become like crypto incubator for all kinds of ideas and solutions.Perfect place to test in real life anything that comes to your mind.

[Elwar]

I like the idea.If I could afford it I would give it a go for sure.There was an ICO related to seasteading few months ago, but it didn't turn out it seems. I haven't checked what really happened and why it failed, Elwar do you know why? NOt enough funds raised?

Like most of the other ICOs it was just bad timing. They missed the boom last year and tried to do an ICO during the bear cycle. They set a minimum raise amount and did not hit that number so they refunded everyone's money.

They also ran into problems in French Polynesia with the government...it was election season so the opposition used Blue Frontiers as an opportunity to turn it into an election time issue making up all sorts of false claims to try to win votes. In the end the party attacking the project lost. But in order to save face the government backed down from their promises during the election and couldn't figure out a way to get back to it afterwards. There is still some work going on there in French Polynesia to have it on one of the remote islands but time will tell. Blue Frontiers started expanding to other countries during the whole thing so hopefully a new destination crops up.

It's probably good that they didn't get enough funding since it was raised in ETH and since this summer the price has crashed. The project would have failed while also taking a lot of peoples' money.

[af_newbie]

I just thought I would post a thread here as I have an interest in Bitcoin and seasteading. For those that have never heard of it, seasteading is taking the concept of homesteading to the ocean. If your floating home is 12 nautical miles away from a nation's shore, you are not subject to most of the nation's laws outside of mineral rights, oil, and a few other things. 200 nautical miles from any nation and there is are no national laws.

The idea pushed by the Seasteading Institute is that if we set up several of these seastead communities, we can experiment with new forms of government which can rise or fall based upon how good the new government works. With current governments there is not much competition. With thousands of seasteads competing for residents that can pick up and move to a new seastead, there will be innovation in government.

A sound idea also pushed and generally accepted is that the first seasteads will likely be protected by a host nation initially so that we can work through the engineering constraints first before moving further and further out to sea. The Seasteading Institute has partnered with French Polynesia to begin building the world's first seastead in the protected waters of one of their larger islands. The hope is that they will begin building a large structure some time in 2019. Cost estimates for the initial structure have been somewhere in the $30-$50 million range, with each person needing about $500k to $1 million to live there.

My own plan, which is a slight deviation from their plan, is to start small and modularly (not likely a real word). I would also like to start in a protected waterway initially. But I recognize that most people cannot afford such a high price, and their system does not leave much room for picking up your home and floating to a new seastead if you want to. My goal is to follow the tiny house trend initially and build a small modular floating structure that I can keep under $20k for the base price (plus cost of solar panels, water maker, composting toilet, etc.). Basically enough living space as a small boat, but unlike a boat you can attach these units together for more and more living space as can be afforded.

The rise in the bitcoin price has accelerated my plans and at a certain price point I will likely quit my job and pursue this full time. I am not here looking for funding, investment or even a hand out. I have been working on my design for several years now. I have created computer models of it and will focus next on finding the most structurally sound design as possible while keeping it economical. My initial plan will be to move to a low cost country, likely in Asia (Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc.), maybe French Polynesia (more expensive), and work on building my prototype. I will then move it to the ocean and test in a protected waterway, living in the smallest unit to learn and improve the design.

I will be doing this no matter what. I will share my journey with those that are interested and I hope that once I have something proven, people will want to join my journey and become pioneers in this new industry.

A good forum where seasteading is discussed in grave detail can be found here: https://discuss.seasteading.org/

Do not presume to think that I have not considered some obvious thing about living on the ocean or building a seastead or some knee jerk reaction such as waves or pirates. If you go to the seasteading forum you will see that there have been discussions on there back as far as 2008 (when I first got involved) and there is discussion (mostly arguments) about just about every minute detail that may come up. Mostly discussions about things that do not need to be considered until we are 200 nm from any nation.

What are your thoughts on seasteading? Is it something you would consider doing at some point in your life? What do you like/not like about the concept?


Here is a high level overview of my design that I put together a few years ago. I have since improved upon that initial design but the concept is still similar.
https://discuss.seasteading.org/t/my-viva-vivas-seastead-design/921/2

I think the main benefit would be that you would be able to structure your society differently.  For example, you could establish scientific hubs that would not be regulated and can speed up technological progress.  Genetic, stem research, human cloning, nanotechnology, AI etc. come to mind. 

The issue I see is, how do you get funding to get this off the ground.  I guess if you can convince enough smart and rich people to join, it might work.

Then again, when your 'country' becomes successful and develops something worth fighting for, I am sure the US will find a reason to invade you, if not, Russia will find a reason to 'protect' Russian citizens in your enclave to invade your country and run a 'referendum' to join Russia.

Interesting idea, but you have a lot of competition with trillion dollar armies.

[BADecker]

A single company creating a single seastead is working on an agreement with French Polynesia.

Imagine the first person to come up with the concept of a "house". They go to the chief of the little village and negotiate a location for their new technology of 4 walls and a roof. There is an official agreement in that village for a house that is to be built. It will be amazing. All of your dreams will come true.

And then there's another guy thousands of miles away with the same idea. He doesn't even discuss it with his village chief, he just goes into the woods and builds a small house. Or even...has his friends build him a house. In exchange they get some coconuts or some meat from his last catch.

Then his friends decide to build houses near his house.

No government is needed just because a house is built. Same for seasteading. Just build it and live in it. If you want to interact with your neighbors, interact. If you don't like how your neighbor interacts with you...move your house.

It's really that simple.

Seasteading creates these images of fantasy land where all of your dreams come true. That's why I won't be talking about the project I'm working on because unless someone sees it in action the concept of seasteading comes with all sorts of baggage. People either believe it solves all problems or creates all problems. They already have an image in their head of what seasteading is. And all of those ideas are different from everyone else's ideas. But their idea is the best...because reasons.

That's almost the thing that I have been saying. But consider:

Over the years, all those people who wanted to live free on the waters have done it. A few of them have done it jointly under one kind of agreement or another. Some may even have advertised for people to join them, like Seasteading does.

Seasteading is under contract. The contract is governing law. If people join, because it looks like Seasteading has strength, there should really be strength in the contract... strength for freedom. After all, Seasteading "leaders" don't want to hurt people, do they?

How big was the USA government when the Constitution and the Amendments were ratified? Most of the people agreed with the new USA grudgingly, because it was the lesser of two evils, King George being the greater. Seasteading people aren't agreeing grudgingly. They are jumping right in. Are they doing so without understanding the basics of the contract?

The new USA government happened to be a good freedom form. Is the Seasteading contract?

[Elwar]

A single company creating a single seastead is working on an agreement with French Polynesia.

Imagine the first person to come up with the concept of a "house". They go to the chief of the little village and negotiate a location for their new technology of 4 walls and a roof. There is an official agreement in that village for a house that is to be built. It will be amazing. All of your dreams will come true.

And then there's another guy thousands of miles away with the same idea. He doesn't even discuss it with his village chief, he just goes into the woods and builds a small house. Or even...has his friends build him a house. In exchange they get some coconuts or some meat from his last catch.

Then his friends decide to build houses near his house.

No government is needed just because a house is built. Same for seasteading. Just build it and live in it. If you want to interact with your neighbors, interact. If you don't like how your neighbor interacts with you...move your house.

It's really that simple.

Seasteading creates these images of fantasy land where all of your dreams come true. That's why I won't be talking about the project I'm working on because unless someone sees it in action the concept of seasteading comes with all sorts of baggage. People either believe it solves all problems or creates all problems. They already have an image in their head of what seasteading is. And all of those ideas are different from everyone else's ideas. But their idea is the best...because reasons.

That's almost the thing that I have been saying. But consider:

Over the years, all those people who wanted to live free on the waters have done it. A few of them have done it jointly under one kind of agreement or another. Some may even have advertised for people to join them, like Seasteading does.

Seasteading is under contract. The contract is governing law. If people join, because it looks like Seasteading has strength, there should really be strength in the contract... strength for freedom. After all, Seasteading "leaders" don't want to hurt people, do they?

How big was the USA government when the Constitution and the Amendments were ratified? Most of the people agreed with the new USA grudgingly, because it was the lesser of two evils, King George being the greater. Seasteading people aren't agreeing grudgingly. They are jumping right in. Are they doing so without understanding the basics of the contract?

The new USA government happened to be a good freedom form. Is the Seasteading contract?

Every year there is an event called ephemerisle. A bunch of people in a California bay get together and build floating structures and have a week long party.

Some structures form islands and some require that you sign a contract before you can come aboard. The contracts are usually something like "I promise not to hurt anyone, litter, steal, etc.".

Each one has a different contract.

"Seasteading" is not one thing that will be governed by one thing. You might come to my house and I have one set of rules and go to someone else's house and they have other rules. Some people may combine their houses and have an agreed upon set of rules.

I fully expect that if seasteading reaches the point where they are trying to form nations, they will have more nations than currently exist. Think alt coins but in the physical space. There may be some main ones but it will continuously be splitting off into other forms.

[BADecker]

A single company creating a single seastead is working on an agreement with French Polynesia.

Imagine the first person to come up with the concept of a "house". They go to the chief of the little village and negotiate a location for their new technology of 4 walls and a roof. There is an official agreement in that village for a house that is to be built. It will be amazing. All of your dreams will come true.

And then there's another guy thousands of miles away with the same idea. He doesn't even discuss it with his village chief, he just goes into the woods and builds a small house. Or even...has his friends build him a house. In exchange they get some coconuts or some meat from his last catch.

Then his friends decide to build houses near his house.

No government is needed just because a house is built. Same for seasteading. Just build it and live in it. If you want to interact with your neighbors, interact. If you don't like how your neighbor interacts with you...move your house.

It's really that simple.

Seasteading creates these images of fantasy land where all of your dreams come true. That's why I won't be talking about the project I'm working on because unless someone sees it in action the concept of seasteading comes with all sorts of baggage. People either believe it solves all problems or creates all problems. They already have an image in their head of what seasteading is. And all of those ideas are different from everyone else's ideas. But their idea is the best...because reasons.

That's almost the thing that I have been saying. But consider:

Over the years, all those people who wanted to live free on the waters have done it. A few of them have done it jointly under one kind of agreement or another. Some may even have advertised for people to join them, like Seasteading does.

Seasteading is under contract. The contract is governing law. If people join, because it looks like Seasteading has strength, there should really be strength in the contract... strength for freedom. After all, Seasteading "leaders" don't want to hurt people, do they?

How big was the USA government when the Constitution and the Amendments were ratified? Most of the people agreed with the new USA grudgingly, because it was the lesser of two evils, King George being the greater. Seasteading people aren't agreeing grudgingly. They are jumping right in. Are they doing so without understanding the basics of the contract?

The new USA government happened to be a good freedom form. Is the Seasteading contract?

Every year there is an event called ephemerisle. A bunch of people in a California bay get together and build floating structures and have a week long party.

Some structures form islands and some require that you sign a contract before you can come aboard. The contracts are usually something like "I promise not to hurt anyone, litter, steal, etc.".

Each one has a different contract.

"Seasteading" is not one thing that will be governed by one thing. You might come to my house and I have one set of rules and go to someone else's house and they have other rules. Some people may combine their houses and have an agreed upon set of rules.

I fully expect that if seasteading reaches the point where they are trying to form nations, they will have more nations than currently exist. Think alt coins but in the physical space. There may be some main ones but it will continuously be splitting off into other forms.

Yet, in the Seasteading that exists right now, there is a contract with the French Polynesian Government. Once there are, say, a hundred private structures built, there might be a hundred private contracts for visitors to each private structure. But they all fall under the French Polynesian Government contract.

This underlying Contract might allow anybody to take his chunk of island, and depart, no questions asked, any time he wants. And if it does, great! But if it doesn't, or if there are other rules, are they good rules, and how far into the future are they binding, and any number of other questions.

[Elwar]

Yet, in the Seasteading that exists right now, there is a contract with the French Polynesian Government. Once there are, say, a hundred private structures built, there might be a hundred private contracts for visitors to each private structure. But they all fall under the French Polynesian Government contract.

This underlying Contract might allow anybody to take his chunk of island, and depart, no questions asked, any time he wants. And if it does, great! But if it doesn't, or if there are other rules, are they good rules, and how far into the future are they binding, and any number of other questions.

Ahh, I see. Yes, the French Polynesia thing will have legal contracts and restrictions as agreed upon between Blue Frontiers and the French Polynesian government. But that one is far from happening. Still waiting on the government to get its act together which could be a few years.

The private seasteads (in a different location) will happen sooner than that.

[BADecker]

Once we learn how to extract oxygen from the water easily, it will be Seabedding. After that, we will have Sea Wars... Seasteaders fighting Seabedders. The Seasteaders drop the bombs (depth charges). The Seabedders shoot the missiles (torpedoes).

[ATMD]

I just thought I would post a thread here as I have an interest in Bitcoin and seasteading. For those that have never heard of it, seasteading is taking the concept of homesteading to the ocean. If your floating home is 12 nautical miles away from a nation's shore, you are not subject to most of the nation's laws outside of mineral rights, oil, and a few other things. 200 nautical miles from any nation and there is are no national laws.

The idea pushed by the Seasteading Institute is that if we set up several of these seastead communities, we can experiment with new forms of government which can rise or fall based upon how good the new government works. With current governments there is not much competition. With thousands of seasteads competing for residents that can pick up and move to a new seastead, there will be innovation in government.

A sound idea also pushed and generally accepted is that the first seasteads will likely be protected by a host nation initially so that we can work through the engineering constraints first before moving further and further out to sea. The Seasteading Institute has partnered with French Polynesia to begin building the world's first seastead in the protected waters of one of their larger islands. The hope is that they will begin building a large structure some time in 2019. Cost estimates for the initial structure have been somewhere in the $30-$50 million range, with each person needing about $500k to $1 million to live there.

My own plan, which is a slight deviation from their plan, is to start small and modularly (not likely a real word). I would also like to start in a protected waterway initially. But I recognize that most people cannot afford such a high price, and their system does not leave much room for picking up your home and floating to a new seastead if you want to. My goal is to follow the tiny house trend initially and build a small modular floating structure that I can keep under $20k for the base price (plus cost of solar panels, water maker, composting toilet, etc.). Basically enough living space as a small boat, but unlike a boat you can attach these units together for more and more living space as can be afforded.

The rise in the bitcoin price has accelerated my plans and at a certain price point I will likely quit my job and pursue this full time. I am not here looking for funding, investment or even a hand out. I have been working on my design for several years now. I have created computer models of it and will focus next on finding the most structurally sound design as possible while keeping it economical. My initial plan will be to move to a low cost country, likely in Asia (Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc.), maybe French Polynesia (more expensive), and work on building my prototype. I will then move it to the ocean and test in a protected waterway, living in the smallest unit to learn and improve the design.

I will be doing this no matter what. I will share my journey with those that are interested and I hope that once I have something proven, people will want to join my journey and become pioneers in this new industry.

A good forum where seasteading is discussed in grave detail can be found here: https://discuss.seasteading.org/

Do not presume to think that I have not considered some obvious thing about living on the ocean or building a seastead or some knee jerk reaction such as waves or pirates. If you go to the seasteading forum you will see that there have been discussions on there back as far as 2008 (when I first got involved) and there is discussion (mostly arguments) about just about every minute detail that may come up. Mostly discussions about things that do not need to be considered until we are 200 nm from any nation.

What are your thoughts on seasteading? Is it something you would consider doing at some point in your life? What do you like/not like about the concept?


Here is a high level overview of my design that I put together a few years ago. I have since improved upon that initial design but the concept is still similar.
https://discuss.seasteading.org/t/my-viva-vivas-seastead-design/921/2

Thank you for the information about the benefits of seasteading, it is a very useful concept that is interlinked with decentralized currency

[bkbirge]

It would be interesting to see seasteading and aquaculture concepts together in real life. Dolphins the new sheep dogs and tuna the new sheep maybe.

[Elwar]

Genesis spar in the water January 3, 2019.

[BADecker]

Genesis spar in the water January 3, 2019.

Hate to say it, but it looks like a boat trailer that got unhitched.

[Elwar]

https://ocean.builders/the-worlds-first-seastead-is-in-the-water/

World's first seastead is in the water.

[BADecker]

^^^ This is a good thing... if it can be sustained and grow. Ocean-going boats that people live on have been around for a long time.

[stoat]

How much is one of these seasteads in Thailand?

[BADecker]

^^^ Whatever you want to pay for it. "Seasteading" is simply a word that holds a deeper meaning for some. Move onto a houseboat, and you just might have seasteading.

How much? Whatever you can or want to spend. Lots of people have taken a nap in a canoe. Move into the canoe out on the ocean, and you just might be seasteading.

[BADecker]

Looks like Seasteading has more work to do. But, this could be a blessing in disguise. A group of Seasteaders just might be able to disable and capture one of these, and decompile them... if they aren't booby trapped.


Navy Ready To Unleash Killer Robot Ships On World’s Oceans

War-minded Technocrats within DARPA have one answer for wiping out the enemy: autonomous machines. When DARPA first released Sea-Hunter, there were pledges that it was only for surveillance and not killing. The flip-flop was anticipated. ⁃ TN Editor

The world’s largest navy has spent the last few years feeling like it was being put in check.

China and Russia have heavily invested in anti-access technologies aimed at holding its main force-projection assets — aircraft carriers — at risk. Now the U.S. Navy and the upper ranks of the military are preparing to take back control of the game board, and it’slooking to unmanned technologies to help.

The U.S. surface fleet has for the past few years sought to flip the script on actors such as China. The fleet aimed to move from a role of simply defending the carrier to going on the offensive.

The goal was to spread out over a wide area to strain Chinese intelligence and reconnaissance assets and thereby exercise a degree of sea control in places such as the South and East China seas that China seeks to deny with long-range, anti-ship missiles and an ever-growing fleet.

Initially, the push was to add big surface combatants to hold down the Navy’s hefty commitments for peacetime presence while maintaining enough firepower to both defend themselves and project power in an anti-access environment.

But that’s changing...

She's a beauty in that picture, though, isn't she?

[Elwar]

^^^ Whatever you want to pay for it. "Seasteading" is simply a word that holds a deeper meaning for some. Move onto a houseboat, and you just might have seasteading.

How much? Whatever you can or want to spend. Lots of people have taken a nap in a canoe. Move into the canoe out on the ocean, and you just might be seasteading.

Seasteading is not just living on a houseboat. It involves living at least 12 nautical miles outside of a nation's territorial waters.

A house boat cannot just sit in such waters due to the waves.

Ocean Builders seasteads are built on top of a spar which allows you to live above the waves.

As for price...we are targeting $150-$200k. First 20 will get the seastead at cost, and help to decide the way forward for future seasteading.