china will no longer able to control bitcoin market???

[Betwrong]

Possible or not if bitcoin users increase, china will no longer able to control bitcoin market. i see china market always try to dump the price even other exchange want to the price keep rising.

Sure if Bitcoin gets decentralized enough then the Chinese and other monopolywhores wouldn't be able to control much stake in the network and volume of bitcoins in their possession in order to determine prices for us all. We need get involved and get the message everywhere.

but i think bitcoin is not a centralize currency as bitcoin is an international currency and therefore China as well as any other country cannot manipulate the price and market of bitcoin.

Bitcoin is spread through the world and a single country cant be responsible to have a say in manipulation of it. Little bit pumps or dumps can be planned if a country has a large share of the coins but nobody can fully control it for sure.

First of, China is not a one person. And no other country is, except North Korea maybe. I mean nowhere there are meetings on the government level with an agenda like "How to control Bitcoin?"

But if all the people living in China decided to consolidate in order to manipulate the Bitcoin's price would they succeed? That's another question.

[noictib]

Possible or not if bitcoin users increase, china will no longer able to control bitcoin market. i see china market always try to dump the price even other exchange want to the price keep rising.

I don't think that it is reality , The control of the bitcoin by china is only due to the mining profit and nothing , So here until the electricity remain cheap the china will control the bitcoin price more .
But here I is mendetory for us to notice that only few times the price got fluctuate due to china big trading exchange , So we can't say directly that the control comes-in/comes-out for china to control bitcoin price rise/down .
Currently the problem of fall in the bitcoin price is only due to coinbase that is not directly reason for the china exchange .

[Winchester2211]

Possible or not if bitcoin users increase, china will no longer able to control bitcoin market. i see china market always try to dump the price even other exchange want to the price keep rising.

Sure if Bitcoin gets decentralized enough then the Chinese and other monopolywhores wouldn't be able to control much stake in the network and volume of bitcoins in their possession in order to determine prices for us all. We need get involved and get the message everywhere.

but i think bitcoin is not a centralize currency as bitcoin is an international currency and therefore China as well as any other country cannot manipulate the price and market of bitcoin.

Bitcoin is spread through the world and a single country cant be responsible to have a say in manipulation of it. Little bit pumps or dumps can be planned if a country has a large share of the coins but nobody can fully control it for sure.

First of, China is not a one person. And no other country is, except North Korea maybe. I mean nowhere there are meetings on the government level with an agenda like "How to control Bitcoin?"

But if all the people living in China decided to consolidate in order to manipulate the Bitcoin's price would they succeed? That's another question.

I wonder why everyone wants to control bitcoin? Nobody thinks about that as soon as bitcoin will get under someone's control it will lose its appeal and cease to exist.

[genny2kuk]

Possible or not if bitcoin users increase, china will no longer able to control bitcoin market. i see china market always try to dump the price even other exchange want to the price keep rising.

China could only have major effect when their exchanges were trading btc with no fees. Now that the government has frowned at it, fees have being introduced and now trading volume has gone lower.

[JL421]

You can't tell that for now as till date i still think 60-70% of investors are from china itself but of course the number is reducing daily and i see more chinese getting some actually sense in them. All bitcoin wants now is investments from people around the world as many are aware but for some reason not investing.

Its always them so far, the Chinese investors and miners. It can only decrease gradually but they still are as we speak.  If they can talk to one forum and control the market they easily can and will absorb all the USD if they can. It looks like they can control the world with it if now being solved by PBOC. The world is a better place without a a group of people that will control us, its one of the reason why we got into decentralized currencies.

Decentralized currency is the best idea but unfortunately the main one which is bitcoin is being manipulated by those same people who control fiat i hope this doesn't last long otherwise reaching a point of 2000$ can be really hard plus after the currenct incident i think the suitability is also gone.

[BobK71]

I've heard it many times that the IMF forbids its members from pegging their currencies to gold

I don't really know if they really claim what they are ascribed to claim but even if so it is not what is going to stop China from pegging its currency to gold. Gold is a highly volatile asset on its own, and its volatility doesn't depend on how well (oh how bad, for that matter) a specific economy fares (which has chosen to peg its currency to gold). Thus, if some country pegged their fiat to gold, that would most certainly create total chaos in the economy once the gold value (price) starts to thrash about as a headless chicken. I think that's the primary reason why the IMF has set this rule.

Gold is volatile only because no big national currency has been pegged to it for the last 4 decades, and because the powers that be have been manipulating its 'market' price.  If and when a major national currency is pegged to it, it will have nowhere to go but up from this level.

The IMF exists to enforce the imperial system --it has been amply documented that it doesn't operate with the best interest of developing countries in mind, to put it mildly.  And the imperial system would be profoundly threatened by any major pegging to gold.

Apart from that, why would China ever want to destroy the dollar if that would inexorably destroy the market for their exports?

Certainly, the elites in China and every other major country want to maintain the status quo for as long as possible, since it benefits them too.  But they also understand the fundamentally unstable nature of a dollar-based system, that benefits the imperial center at their expense.  They thus have a dilemma, and who knows, at some point they might want to bite the bullet and free themselves from the dollar.

When China stabilizes its system through devaluation and/or pegging, it will have a lot of freedom to apply stimulus to dull whatever pain might come from the change.  In fact, capital and demand from around the world will be attracted to a China with a currency that is both stable and initially cheap, further limiting the downside, and improving the upside.

The mainstream press never mentions that devaluation plus inflation (with or without pegging to something other than the dollar) is the perfect solution for the vast majority of countries' financial instability problem, the vast majority of the time.  For example, Greece should get out of the euro, devalue, and wipe out most of its debt, for its own good.  But if countries were 'allowed' to do this, it would be a big threat to the dollar-based imperial system, in multiple ways.

I don't know about you, but personally, I don't see any real sense behind this idea. Especially when in reality they are hell-bent on devaluing their own currency against the same dollar (obviously, trying to keep balance between devaluation and runaway inflation which such devaluation is prone to cause)

Of course China wants to devalue massively, and then regain stability at the new exchange rate.  See above.  The only reason it has not done so is that it's not allowed to, while it still wants to play along with the imperial system, more or less.

But pegging to a non-dollar asset is not incompatible with devaluation, at least initially.  If an ounce of gold is worth 8500 yuan today, China could peg to gold at, for example, 85,000 yuan per ounce, and assuming thisprice level has been properly arrived at, the yuan would immediately be much cheaper in dollar terms, but also regain stability at that level, and will have nowhere to move but up.  As for the US, it would be up sh*t's creek.

As I always say, it's a mistake to think we have this monetary and financial system mainly because of economics and finance.  Those are big factors, but politics is the real long-term driver.

[deisik]

I've heard it many times that the IMF forbids its members from pegging their currencies to gold

I don't really know if they really claim what they are ascribed to claim but even if so it is not what is going to stop China from pegging its currency to gold. Gold is a highly volatile asset on its own, and its volatility doesn't depend on how well (oh how bad, for that matter) a specific economy fares (which has chosen to peg its currency to gold). Thus, if some country pegged their fiat to gold, that would most certainly create total chaos in the economy once the gold value (price) starts to thrash about as a headless chicken. I think that's the primary reason why the IMF has set this rule.

Gold is volatile only because no big national currency has been pegged to it for the last 4 decades, and because the powers that be have been manipulating its 'market' price.  If and when a major national currency is pegged to it, it will have nowhere to go but up from this level

You obviously fail to see the forest for the trees

More specifically, you at first started by claiming that a currency will derive its value from the fact of its being pegged to gold, and then, unexpectedly, you reverse your reasoning 180 degrees and basically begin asserting that it is in fact gold that gets its value from major currencies being pegged to it. Why not then just peg the Chinese yuan to the US dollar directly and get done with that? Since this is what your current train of thought essentially comes down to. If you disagree, you should either stick to your original point that gold doesn't need external validation but then you have to deal with the genuine volatility of it, or accept that it itself is dependent on major currencies being pegged to it (or gold being pegged to them), but then the latter completely invalidates your whole argument, sorry for that

[BobK71]

You obviously fail to see the forest for the trees

More specifically, you at first started by claiming that a currency will derive its value from the fact of its being pegged to gold,

Sorry, no.  I said (paraphrasing here) that under current conditions, a currency can gain stability from being pegged to gold.  This is simple centuries-old logic: if the central bank has to redeem its paper/electronic money with gold at a fixed rate on demand from all comers, it must be more careful with issuance, or there'd be a run on its gold.

and then, unexpectedly, you reverse your reasoning 180 degrees and basically begin asserting that it is in fact gold that gets its value from major currencies being pegged to it.

I said gold is volatile in national currency terms because no major currency has been pegged to it for 40 years.  Pegging obvious decreases exchange rate volatility (by design!)  That is all.  Do not take my words farther than they are -- there are subtle but important differences for every change of shade of wording in this business...

FWIW, it's obvious that the lack of pegging since 1971, over the long term, increased rather than decreased the value of gold in currency terms.  Given this history, why would anyone say gold gets its value from currencies being pegged to it?  Except under specific conditions, from specific initial conditions, with specific human intent.  Again, subtlety, my friend...  If you deal in broad strokes, you're in the wrong business here.

 Why not then just peg the Chinese yuan to the US dollar directly and get done with that? Since this is what your current train of thought essentially comes down to.

Apart from the above, the dollar is issued by corruptible humans.  (And I was being nice to go only as far as 'corruptible'!)

If you disagree, you should either stick to your original point that gold doesn't need external validation

Again, I never made this kind of statement one way or the other in this discussion.  You should read my 'Honest Introduction to Money' for a full explanation of my view on the nature of the value of money.  (Spoiler alert: you'd be surprised if you thought I held any religious belief as to the 'intrinsic' value of any type of money.)

but then you have to deal with the genuine volatility of it,

As I mentioned, the volatility is far from genuine but from elite manipulation of gold and silver 'markets.'

or accept that it itself is dependent on major currencies being pegged to it (or gold being pegged to them), but then the latter completely invalidates your whole argument, sorry for that

May I serve just a small taste of the sheer degree of subtlety that one must deal with, in order to discuss money in a credible fashion:

Throughout most the 19th century both the global elites and mainstream economists propagated the idea that gold was real money, and paper money was debt, and that major governments were morally committed to fully redeem their paper with gold at the fixed rate, since failure to do so amounted to reneging on debt, and thus to theft.

Well, this propaganda was wrong on all fronts.  The elites were 'misleading' the public even about the intent of the gold standard.  I'll leave the explanation for you to work out, if you both want to, and have the required background for the work.

[ekoice]

Possible or not if bitcoin users increase, china will no longer able to control bitcoin market. i see china market always try to dump the price even other exchange want to the price keep rising.

Here after,china willnot be able to control or dump bitcoins.Even if they try to dump,they would end up losing their bitcoins to investors of other parts of the world.People all over the world have relized bitcoin's potential and they are ready to buy bitcoins.China dragon has lost its power.

[Xester]

Possible or not if bitcoin users increase, china will no longer able to control bitcoin market. i see china market always try to dump the price even other exchange want to the price keep rising.

Sure if Bitcoin gets decentralized enough then the Chinese and other monopolywhores wouldn't be able to control much stake in the network and volume of bitcoins in their possession in order to determine prices for us all. We need get involved and get the message everywhere.

but i think bitcoin is not a centralize currency as bitcoin is an international currency and therefore China as well as any other country cannot manipulate the price and market of bitcoin.

Bitcoin is spread through the world and a single country cant be responsible to have a say in manipulation of it. Little bit pumps or dumps can be planned if a country has a large share of the coins but nobody can fully control it for sure.

First of, China is not a one person. And no other country is, except North Korea maybe. I mean nowhere there are meetings on the government level with an agenda like "How to control Bitcoin?"

But if all the people living in China decided to consolidate in order to manipulate the Bitcoin's price would they succeed? That's another question.

It is true that China is a country and not a single individual but even though it is also true that the bitcoin holders doesnt hold a meeting that they will dump their bitcoin still China has a say on bitcoins market. This possibility rests on the fact that China  has many giant bitcoin mining farms compared to the rest of the world. The biggest mining center is also in China and even if only one mining farm decided to dump their bitcoins that market will experience big waves of volatility. That is why we must never underestimate China since they have a say to the bitcoin community.

[Nagadota]

It's just a case of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" with the government.

It depends on how you look at "China" though.  Chinese companies will always have a big influence on Bitcoin, particularly monopolies like Bitmain who won't be going away any time soon.  Actually, Bitcoin will probably just get more centralised as time goes on.

[Gozie51]

Possible or not if bitcoin users increase, china will no longer able to control bitcoin market. i see china market always try to dump the price even other exchange want to the price keep rising.

Sure if Bitcoin gets decentralized enough then the Chinese and other monopolywhores wouldn't be able to control much stake in the network and volume of bitcoins in their possession in order to determine prices for us all. We need get involved and get the message everywhere.

but i think bitcoin is not a centralize currency as bitcoin is an international currency and therefore China as well as any other country cannot manipulate the price and market of bitcoin.

Bitcoin is spread through the world and a single country cant be responsible to have a say in manipulation of it. Little bit pumps or dumps can be planned if a country has a large share of the coins but nobody can fully control it for sure.

First of, China is not a one person. And no other country is, except North Korea maybe. I mean nowhere there are meetings on the government level with an agenda like "How to control Bitcoin?"

But if all the people living in China decided to consolidate in order to manipulate the Bitcoin's price would they succeed? That's another question.

It is true that China is a country and not a single individual but even though it is also true that the bitcoin holders doesnt hold a meeting that they will dump their bitcoin still China has a say on bitcoins market. This possibility rests on the fact that China  has many giant bitcoin mining farms compared to the rest of the world. The biggest mining center is also in China and even if only one mining farm decided to dump their bitcoins that market will experience big waves of volatility. That is why we must never underestimate China since they have a say to the bitcoin community.

The assurances we had in the past about China not being able to control the market might as well be an oversight because I think the little downward thread we are experiencing at the moment could have been as a result of the ban announcement on cryptos in China. So we see anything is just possible to happen. Though not control but a little of influence. My thought.

[JohnLHarvin]

These old miners would certainly be interested in the true development of Bitcoin (not so much in profit, unlike today's miners), and thus the development of Bitcoin would be facilitated. So the answer is positive, yes, we will be affected
China does not have enough money to change the yuan. China now has to do a combination of rigidity, capital controls and reserve spending to protect its cohesion and confidence in the yuan. None of them are painless.
Thank you

[beerlover]

The assurances we had in the past about China not being able to control the market might as well be an oversight because I think the little downward thread we are experiencing at the moment could have been as a result of the ban announcement on cryptos in China. So we see anything is just possible to happen. Though not control but a little of influence. My thought.

It is funny this discussion ensued in March and by September, China tried to stamp the discussion. It must have really been an oversight, however, China is just another country and even though they have the highest mining rigs and it seems they once had the highest trade market, this does not mean they can keep manipulating the system for long.

The truth is that it is hard to predict any possible outcome in any situation, but it seems over time, people will get a grip of themselves and bother less about china's FUDs.

[Chachacoin17]

Possible or not if bitcoin users increase, china will no longer able to control bitcoin market. i see china market always try to dump the price even other exchange want to the price keep rising.

After China banned ICO and many investors dump their bitcoins, still bitcoin survives. This will clearly proves us that no country can control bitcoin because it is unstoppable and decentralized. Despite all the negative issues released, bitcoin now is recovering and the price now is gradually increasing. Next year I wouldn't be surprise if it hits $10000.!:)

[LuffyD.Monkey]

These old miners would certainly be interested in the true development of Bitcoin (not so much in profit, unlike today's miners), and thus the development of Bitcoin would be facilitated. So the answer is positive, yes, we will be affected
China does not have enough money to change the yuan. China now has to do a combination of rigidity, capital controls and reserve spending to protect its cohesion and confidence in the yuan. None of them are painless.
Thank you

Chinese Ban is not that much matter of discussion now because bitcoin is not depending on any country those who banned it are on a huge mistake and in coming future they will regret about what they did, and banning bitcoin means to lag in the progress of economy and digital technology and now they have no hold in future and that’s a good sign.

[kpcian]

you can't say boldly about the issue, because you haven't any concrete information about this point. China is one of the largest and growing economy in the current world, especially in the crypt currency platform, China has huge investment so that they should not be ignored.

[Lampaster]

you can't say boldly about the issue, because you haven't any concrete information about this point. China is one of the largest and growing economy in the current world, especially in the crypt currency platform, China has huge investment so that they should not be ignored.

China has built its economy on the investment of developed countries. The Chinese economy is built on the dollar. They have a huge stock of dollars in the Treasury. It is possible that this ban is an attempt to save their dollar assets from depreciation. I think that the process of capital outflow from the dollar China will not stop and he will be forced to terminate the prohibitions on the involvement of bitcoin in the country.

[1Referee]

Chinese Ban is not that much matter of discussion now because bitcoin is not depending on any country

And yet this market gets negatively affected at the time the price is about to reach new a new high, and just before that something happens in China. China just need to fart, and people start selling like there is no tomorrow -> it has been like this for several years now, and not much will change in this regard. People need to disconnect themselves from the believe that China is a big deal and the engine of this market, because that's not the case. It's frustrating to see that despite all the bullish events we have gone through lately, a non contributing factor such as China manages to spoil and ruin everything in a matter of days. Let them ban everything they want, why should we care?

[carltoncole]

 That's the beauty of it - governments not being able to control BTC and make it rigged like everything else they do, and it's one of the basic principles of creating BTC, isn't it?