Taxation: You Can Always Leave.

[myrkul]

Fear of your government has you right where they want you.

Somehow, I doubt that.

[FirstAscent]

Fear of your government has you right where they want you.

Somehow, I doubt that.

Sounds like it to me.

[myrkul]

Fear of your government has you right where they want you.

Somehow, I doubt that.

Sounds like it to me.

How so? You're making a LOT of assumptions about my behavior, most of which are entirely unfounded.

[Mike Christ]

How so? You're making a LOT of assumptions about my behavior, most of which are entirely unfounded.

Seems to be the theme here.

[FirstAscent]

Fear of your government has you right where they want you.

Somehow, I doubt that.

Sounds like it to me.

How so?

Your posting history.

Your fears of a police state. Your fears of the tax man. Your fears of, as you are so fond of saying: "Men in blue suits". Your fears of confiscation of property.

Since identity and records play such a strong role in your world view, I suggest you watch Woman in the Dunes, a movie which explores that theme. It's considered to be one of the great films. To refuse to watch it because you disagree with me is to cheat yourself. Trailer: http://mubi.com/films/woman-in-the-dunes

From there, you can continue to remedy your cinematic ignorance by watching Sansho the Bailiff, a movie which explores the best and worst that humanity has to offer. It is considered to be one of the greatest films ever made. Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=076MrMynyak

Good night now.  

[hawkeye]

Fear of your government has you right where they want you.

I think you are describing yourself.   You fear them so much you freak out when you hear anyone else questioning them and proceed to attack the person, often going so far to call them names.

All we do is ask legitimate questions regarding the validity of authority.

[myrkul]

Fear of your government has you right where they want you.

Somehow, I doubt that.

Sounds like it to me.

How so?

Your posting history.

Your fears of a police state. Your fears of the tax man. Your fears of, as you are so fond of saying: "Men in blue suits". Your fears of confiscation of property.

You think I act out of fear? No. I do not fear a police state. I do not fear the tax man. I do not fear men in blue costumes. I do not fear confiscation of property.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

(Now that's a movie. The book series is even better.)

Those things concern me, they may even cause me a bit of worry, and certainly some anger, but not fear. I do not fear the state. I hate it.

[bitsalame]

Dear teens, I will share with you a Spanish adage:
"The devil knows more because he's old, than because he's the devil"

People who are older than you will most likely be right about life than you can imagine.
Respect your elders. You can't learn Experience, it is acquired by living it.

[bitbutter]

why do people tend to do so well here, rather than somewhere like somalia?

You know that living standards in Somalia have improvded since the collapse of the state there right? http://www.peterleeson.com/better_off_stateless.pdf

ok we got this bitchen market thing going on,

Yes.

I notice you didn't address any of the claims made in the video linked.

[FirstAscent]

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

(Now that's a movie. The book series is even better.)

I saw the film on opening day, 1984. I read the books years before.

"The spice must flow." Ultimately, Dune was a metaphor for OPEC. The movie was interesting, the books better. There's some real cinema treasures when you're ready.

[Jobe7]

dude I know a scoundrel who owes the fed more than 50 million and he walks around free.  so what's gonna happen? it's been more than a decade... come on what are they gonna do?

I, on the other hand, pay my taxes because I feel a duty to do so.

and in a few decades I'll still be able to wipe my own ass just fine. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2291254/New-drug-developed-using-compound-red-wine-help-humans-live-150.html

He's a Daily Mail believer, explains everything, lols.

In the UK we step very carefully around Daily Mail believers, they're like ... how can I put it .. complete and utter tools of the state. IF you try any reason or logic with them they tend to start screaming and smoke comes out their ears, no seriously

You could stick a burning branch in their face and say "LOOK FIRE IS HOT FFS!!"

But if the Daily Mail tells them its cold, they'll be saying its cold whilst they burn at the stake.

Daily Mail believers are seriously the sheep of the sheeple.

[dscotese]

Do you have personal experience with what happens? I'm assuming you don't. As someone else said, you're not as wise as you think.

I've never claimed to be the slightest bit wise, else I wouldn't ask questions.  However, I am certain America isn't going to sit around and let its citizens simply not pay taxes; after all, if evading or altering your taxes was legal, what use do we have of the IRS?  Let's get rid of them, since taxation is not enforced.

Some people are obligated by the law to pay because their ability to the the income depends on the federal government ("federally connected activities"), while others are not obligated.  This latter group is deceived into believing that they have to pay.  Like I keep saying, "ignorance tax".

[nwbitcoin]

I would assume that the IRS are like the UK customs where you never, ever want to get into battle with them because you will lose.   The problem stems from the list of creditors where they are always on the top. 

The UK customs can do things that the police can only dream of, like walking into any property, seizing any form of vehicle and holding any person accused of any tax related crime in the past 20 years - all without evidence, just some form of suspicion!

If you do anything to stop them, you are committing an offence!

[bitsalame]

I think both sides are uninformed. Both are wrong and both are right.
The IRS will definitely get your ass if there is an audit and you blatantly leave very clear traces of tax evasion.
On the other hand the case that Viceroy is mentioning might be a case of tax avoidance strategies (different from evasion) and a very good team of accountants covering the scammer's ass. Also, btw, Viceroy's claim that the guy he knows is a scammer is alleged.

[Rassah]

I remember reading about a guy who avoids paying taxes, but the only reason he's not being arrested is because he          now lives on his own compound, is heavily armed, and grows his own food and generates his own power. Basically, the only reason he is left alone is because they police figure it'll be too much trouble to go after him, guns blazing. So as long as he's just doing his own thing, they're leaving him alone.
Does anyone remember what the notorious gangster Al Capone was sentenced to life in prison for?

Also, I was disappointed that the video did not touch on a rather important part of the Social Contract. Specifically, what are the terms, and what is owed? Typically, in a contract, one party owes an obligation to another, and the contract is in force until that obligation is paid. So...

• Is the Social Contract a certain amount of debt that a citizen has amassed while being born, growing up, and living in a country? If yes, then that amount of debt should be a specific number, and one should be able to pay it off. If the number is "infinity" or "your life," that's not a debt contract, that's slavery.
• Is the Social Contract a sort of post-paid services agreement, like a cell phone bill, that you have to pay after using? If that's the case, then you should be able to get a bill for the things you actually used, and at least have an option to pay for extra things you want and not pay for things you don't want. It doesn't matter if someone is stupid or smart enough to know what they want or need. That choice really shouldn't be up to anyone but the person agreeing to the contract. Otherwise it's called fraud, where you are signed up for services you never asked for, and charge with a bill you can't fight (some magazine companies do this).
• Is the Social Contract a rental agreement, that says that as long as you live here on this land, you have to pay rent to cover the land and all the fees that it entails? If that's the case, then there should be a certain price that you can pay to just buy the property outright. There should be an option to go from being a renter to being an owner. Yet there isn't, and the only option is to rent, regardless of how much you pay. This thing may be the only example that goes counter to "everything is for sale," since even if you own billions, instead of offering to sell the property to you, the government will just charge you higher rent. Because they can.
• And by the way, just leaving isn't an option, either. As long as you are a citizen, even if you live overseas, you typically still have to pay taxes back to your country of origin. You could renounce your citizenship, but that typically puts you on a shit list of whatever country you renounced from, meaniing it's only worth the risk if you already have a ton of money at the time to begin with.

[bitsalame]

I remember reading about a guy who avoids paying taxes, but the only reason he's not being arrested is because he          now lives on his own compound, is heavily armed, and grows his own food and generates his own power. Basically, the only reason he is left alone is because they police figure it'll be too much trouble to go after him, guns blazing. So as long as he's just doing his own thing, they're leaving him alone.
Does anyone remember what the notorious gangster Al Capone was sentenced to life in prison for?

Also, I was disappointed that the video did not touch on a rather important part of the Social Contract. Specifically, what are the terms, and what is owed? Typically, in a contract, one party owes an obligation to another, and the contract is in force until that obligation is paid. So...

• Is the Social Contract a certain amount of debt that a citizen has amassed while being born, growing up, and living in a country? If yes, then that amount of debt should be a specific number, and one should be able to pay it off. If the number is "infinity" or "your life," that's not a debt contract, that's slavery.
• Is the Social Contract a sort of post-paid services agreement, like a cell phone bill, that you have to pay after using? If that's the case, then you should be able to get a bill for the things you actually used, and at least have an option to pay for extra things you want and not pay for things you don't want. It doesn't matter if someone is stupid or smart enough to know what they want or need. That choice really shouldn't be up to anyone but the person agreeing to the contract. Otherwise it's called fraud, where you are signed up for services you never asked for, and charge with a bill you can't fight (some magazine companies do this).
• Is the Social Contract a rental agreement, that says that as long as you live here on this land, you have to pay rent to cover the land and all the fees that it entails? If that's the case, then there should be a certain price that you can pay to just buy the property outright. There should be an option to go from being a renter to being an owner. Yet there isn't, and the only option is to rent, regardless of how much you pay. This thing may be the only example that goes counter to "everything is for sale," since even if you own billions, instead of offering to sell the property to you, the government will just charge you higher rent. Because they can.
• And by the way, just leaving isn't an option, either. As long as you are a citizen, even if you live overseas, you typically still have to pay taxes back to your country of origin. You could renounce your citizenship, but that typically puts you on a shit list of whatever country you renounced from, meaniing it's only worth the risk if you already have a ton of money at the time to begin with.

Again, guys, you have to be careful at choosing words.
Evasion isn't the same as avoidance. The former is illegal, the second one it is not.

[dscotese]

Again, guys, you have to be careful at choosing words.
Evasion isn't the same as avoidance. The former is illegal, the second one it is not.

Exactly right!  And you always have to wonder, if you don't understand the law, are you missing a simple method of legally avoiding taxes?  This is why I keep providing links.  There is a lot of evidence on losthorizons.com showing that the law does not require taxes from most people, and that the IRS will respect that law for those who are educated about it.

[nobbynobbynoob]

And by the way, just leaving isn't an option, either. As long as you are a citizen, even if you live overseas, you typically still have to pay taxes back to your country of origin.

Just to set the record straight: only the United States, the Philippines and Eritrea claim the "right" to tax this way on the basis of citizenship rather than just normal (de-jure or de-facto) residency. (ETA: oops, I've forgotten that some countries, like Switzerland, try to collect a special tax from the diaspora who opted out of military duties.)

[Viceroy]

I hope you take all this in, Mike.  There were some very interesting points made in this thread.

[Rassah]

I hope you take all this in, Mike.  There were some very interesting points made in this thread.

Many of which were "Be a sheep!" and "One of us! One of us!"
If your point was, "It's ok, you don't have to pay taxes, the government will be upset, but they will for the most part leave you alone," I think it's really bad advice.