Lets Kill this Paypal Reversible Scam! Look here!

[18RATTT]

Hi guys, im new to btc and bitcointalk.org however since the emergence of ebay in early 2000s paypal has been the standard for e-payment solution, and for some f***ed up reason, paypal became a horseshit here if u want to try to buy your first bitcoin.

i have been using paypal since 2004 and ive used them to purchase itunes songs, app store, goods from online merchant, buy GuildWars2, buy virtual items *cough*epic virtual items*cough*, pay outsource freelancer, pay indian programmers, etc.

the bottom line is i want to use my paypal balance to buy some btc, im a very legit buyer but due to recent popular "paypal-reversible-scam" i became a victim that i cant use my paypal to start into this btc world.

So, may i propose this to you kind sir.
1. Lets just think this way, i want to buy your epic virtual item, thus im going to use my paypal to purchase this epic item. As a token of gratitude you sent me a btc, unbeknown to paypal system. 
I've bought alot of virtual items for my MMO games eg: WoW, Lineage2, GW2, Path of Exile, diablo3. And i think its similar concept of me buying btc.
Can you as a seller use a screenshot from chat/msg confirming that buyer has received the item? thus if the scammer-buyer try to do reversible maneuver u have the proof of that screenshot?

2. Lets pretend that you are a freelance designer and im hiring you to do an epic logo design, then i pay you for your service using my paypal account. As a token of gratitude you sent me a btc. If you really into roleplaying, just sent me some random logo from google.
Why cant this work? this is what people are doing in daily basis when they are hiring freelancer. what seems the problem here?

what say you? 

[1715251483]

1715251483

[1715251483]

1715251483

[1715251483]

1715251483

[1715251483]

1715251483

[Blazr]

You simply tell PayPal you want to return the "epic virtual item" and get a refund for it.They won't ask you to transfer back the free BTC.

Or you can tell them that your PayPal was hacked, and get a refund as its an untangible goods purchase.

Its also a possibility that the buyer is actually using a stolen PP.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Not going to work any better.   "PayPal I don't recognize this purchase for [insert virtual item here] my account must have been hacked".

^ The account actually could be hacked as the "buyer" is using a stolen paypal account OR it could be the buyer just lying to PayPal about their account being hacked.

PayPal response to you will be ... there is no seller protection for virtual items, transaction reversed, no appeal possible.

[CIYAM]

You seem to think that the problem is not on *your* side.

There is simply no risk to you - but the seller must take all the risk on your behalf - do you see the problem here?

If you want to buy bitcoins then *forget about paypal* and then move on (if you keep at it then it will be assumed by most here that you are not trying to anything but *use* the paypal system to get free bitcoins as has happened many times before).

[18RATTT]

You simply tell PayPal you want a return the "epic virtual item" and get a refund for it.They won't ask you to transfer back the free BTC.

but the seller have a proof from our conversation that ive received the items.

Also, if this is the case, what happen to those people who usually buy virtual items or gold from chinese farmer? they coulda say the same shyit to paypal? is it paypal really that dumb and easy to give people refund??
i bet paypal will ask the corresponding seller about the complain first right? and the seller can present paypal about the screenshot of the conversation??
for some weird reason, ive never heard about this uproar about reversible/refund to paypal in MMORPG ecosystem.

[CIYAM]

Just do some searching and you'll see paypal will reverse *anything* for *anyone* (it is their basic principle to protect the buyer and not care about the seller - and especially if the seller is some nobody to them).

As suggested *forget about paypal* and enjoy Bitcoin.

[KWH]

You simply tell PayPal you want a return the "epic virtual item" and get a refund for it.They won't ask you to transfer back the free BTC.

but the seller have a proof from our conversation that ive received the items.

Also, if this is the case, what happen to those people who usually buy virtual items or gold from chinese farmer? they coulda say the same shyit to paypal? is it paypal really that dumb and easy to give people refund??
i bet paypal will ask the corresponding seller about the complain first right? and the seller can present paypal about the screenshot of the conversation??
for some weird reason, ive never heard about this uproar about reversible/refund to paypal in MMORPG ecosystem.

Been living under a rock? This has been going on for years.

[Blazr]

but the seller have a proof from our conversation that ive received the items.

Doesn't matter, PayPal's policy is no protection for virtual goods.

Also, if this is the case, what happen to those people who usually buy virtual items or gold from chinese farmer? they coulda say the same shyit to paypal? is it paypal really that dumb and easy to give people refund??

90% of the time, yes.

i bet paypal will ask the corresponding seller about the complain first right? and the seller can present paypal about the screenshot of the conversation??

There is an appeal's process, once they figure out its a virtual good, however, seller looses no matter what.

for some weird reason, ive never heard about this uproar about reversible/refund to paypal in MMORPG ecosystem.

I have. http://paypalsucks.com

[DeathAndTaxes]

Also, if this is the case, what happen to those people who usually buy virtual items or gold from chinese farmer? they coulda say the same shyit to paypal? is it paypal really that dumb and easy to give people refund??

Yes PayPal is that "dumb" (it actually isn't dumb.)  PayPal doesn't give a crap if you lose money.  Investigating hard to prove disputes is costly.  The time to investigate it is worth more than their 2% fee.   They aren't in the business of losing money.

i bet paypal will ask the corresponding seller about the complain first right? and the seller can present paypal about the screenshot of the conversation??
for some weird reason, ive never heard about this uproar about reversible/refund to paypal in MMORPG ecosystem.

Nope read the PayPal TOS.  There is no seller protection for virtual items.  If disputed as "not authorized" PayPal will refund it.  Period.  They won't even ask for screenshots and won't care what "proof" you supply.

[18RATTT]

If you want to buy bitcoins then *forget about paypal* and then move on (if you keep at it then it will be assumed by most here that you are not trying to anything but *use* the paypal system to get free bitcoins as has happened many times before).

i understand the risk that the seller will have. but what eating me alive is the fact that im a legit buyer that want to use my paypal, but so frustrated because some people before me use paypal as their scamming disposal and now im left with the consequences.

[18RATTT]

Nope read the PayPal TOS.  There is no seller protection for virtual items.  If disputed as "not authorized" PayPal will refund it.  Period.  They won't even ask for screenshots and won't care what "proof" you supply.

well, in that case... how about option #2 ??

[KWH]

If you want to buy bitcoins then *forget about paypal* and then move on (if you keep at it then it will be assumed by most here that you are not trying to anything but *use* the paypal system to get free bitcoins as has happened many times before).

i understand the risk that the seller will have. but what eating me alive is the fact that im a legit buyer that want to use my paypal, but so frustrated because some people before me use paypal as their scamming disposal and now im left with the consequences.

Welcome to reality.

[CIYAM]

So assuming you are legit (and I'm not assuming anything else) then *please* just *let paypal go* (even better - delete your account as I did).

[18RATTT]

So assuming you are legit (and I'm not assuming anything else) then *please* just *let paypal go* (even better - delete your account as I did).

if i know paypal was this broken, i wouldnt use it back then.
but then again, i have a few thousand usd there.
i live in South East Asia now, so i need a convenient way to buy itunes songs, app store, mmo virtual items. Apple,Inc seamlessly withdraw the fund from my paypal.

[fwho]

Long ago I managed to convince PayPal that a buyer who made multiple purchases of digital goods and reversed them was doing it on purpose and gaming the system. I forwarded emails, screenshots of conversations (including from within eBay), and a ton of other proof. It took a lot of work and like a month for them to agree with me. Two weeks later, the buyer created credit card disputes since the PayPal were closed. PayPal immediately refunded all of her money, closed my account because I was a fraudulent seller, and held all of my funds for 6 months.

[CIYAM]

You're living in SE Asia and are paying for any of those things?

Well one can only admire your willingness to pay for things that you don't need to.

(hint - use Android and get your money out of paypal)

[18RATTT]

thanks for the fast respond guys, i really appreciate it.

However, we still left option #2 open.
what happen if i use paypal to pay someone for their service (freelance designer, outsource dev house) ?? their work isnt consider as virtual item right? it fall into "service" category, does paypal protect the seller in this category??

any input Blazr? CIYAM Open? KWH? DeathAndTaxes?

[John (John K.)]

A long story cut short - it's trivial to reverse anything on PayPal if you ask your CC company to reverse it for you. QED.

You're living in SE Asia and are paying for any of those things?

Well one can only admire your willingness to pay for things that you don't need to.

(hint - use Android and get your money out of paypal)

I'm in SEA now, and I do pay for those stuff too. What's wrong with the region?  

[CIYAM]

I just don't think it will work no matter how you want to try and frame it (reminds me of Sunday trading fights back in Australia when you could buy a *book* for a thousand dollars and *get a free pool table*).

[fwho]

thanks for the fast respond guys, i really appreciate it.

However, we still left option #2 open.
what happen if i use paypal to pay someone for their service (freelance designer, outsource dev house) ?? their work isnt consider as virtual item right? it fall into "service" category, does paypal protect the seller in this category??

any input Blazr? CIYAM Open? KWH? DeathAndTaxes?

I honestly cant see this working much better... Granted, I really have not used PayPal in a few years.
Maybe the risk is still there, maybe not. The bigger challenge will be getting someone to go along with it. It really does not matter how PayPal views the transaction if no one trusts the most worthless payment processor to ever exist.