I'm back!

[Alex Zee]

It's perhaps better for me to silently focus on my work and deliver something good for Bitcoin that doesn't require much trust. My reputation is pretty much ruined in this community regardless of how much evidence I bring to the table. (It's easy to blame people.)

You can help your reputation by doing a Q&A session on Ustream or even simply posting a long YouTube video.

What will be your excuse for that? Don't know how to use YouTube? Don't have webcamera? Don't have mobile phone? Or that it "won't prove anything"? Maybe it won't, but it's a good start if you really want to improve your reputation.

Instead, what I see is that you cherry pick posts to answer and ignore posts that are not so easy to answer.

[Inedible]

Silly drama. 

Q: Why would Zhoutong lie about being 17 when he started bitcoinica?  It isn't the kind of lie you tell that will encourage people to entrust hundreds of thousands of dollars with you. 
A: it wasn't a lie.

Pangia - registration date March 31.  Nice trolling.

I'm not sure that's conclusive evidence he didn't lie about his age and registration date isn't a reliable indicator of trollality. There are trolls here that have been registered for years lol

[Inedible]

This Chen Jianhai story is the biggest load of poppycock I've ever heard.

All one needs to do is to read this:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95795.msg1055627#msg1055627

And this:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95738.msg1054890#msg1054890

Lets review the facts:

• Chen Jianhai is a multi-millionaire relic collector with a family living in the cold and remote Heilongjiang Province in China who owns an online 'Taobao' store.
• Chen Jianhai is not technical and his English is poor
• Chen Jianhai is Zhou's former business associate, but not his friend
• Chen Jianhai is likely a long-time criminal quite active in financial black markets with an active presence in stolen credit cards and possibly other hacks. (according to Zhou's observations)
  
• Chen Jianhai has a technical co-worker that is "in-to-bitcoin" and discovers that the source-code has been leaked.
• Chen Jianhai inspects the code and discovers that the MtGox API key is also the master password for Tihan's lastpass account containing the passwords to both Bitcoinica's and Christopher Heaslip's MtGox account. The lastpass account (originally set up by Zhou) was not protected by 2factor. And both MtGox accounts were also not protected with a yubikey.
• Chen Jianhai logs in to the MtGox account and withdraws the maximum number of Coins (40.000 BTC & 40.000 USD). For the USD he creates a MtGox code that he claims on Heaslip's account and uses the USD to buy more BTC.
• Chen Jianhai then withdraws all the coins to Zhou's blockchain.info account. From where he sends them to his servers in America.
• Chen Jianhai decides to frame Zhou stating "it would be impossible to discover the hacker" and "it would be much easier to deny if the suspect account is an insider because you (Zhou Tong) can always distract people from investigating"
• Chen Jianhai knows Zhou's secret sockpuppet identity (stevejobs807@gmail.com) and also his password since Zhou has used Chen's webshop once and re-used that password.
• Chen Jianhai exchanges MtGox coupons worth 40.000 USD to Liberty Reserve through the instant exchange facility at AurumXchange using Zhou's secret identity.
• Coincidentally Zhou also has an order with AurumXchange to sell Liberty Reserve to us for the amount of USD 40,000, requesting a wire to his bank account in Singapore. (for a friend)
• Chen Jianhai then feels the need to create an email account <bitcoinicasucks@hotmail.com> and email verify@bitcoinica.com with the text "THANK YOU FOR YOU SOURCE CODE. BITCONICA IS NOW OFFICALY DONE! LASTPAS PASWORD: c02e1a27-5524-449f-ba65-aff9581ddedc" Despite being able to write perfect english in the subject line, somehow in the body text his CAPS key got stuck and he lost the ability to spell.
• Chen Jianhai is confronted by Zhou who figured it all out after being accused himself only a few hours earlier.
• Chen Jianhai admits everything to Zhou
• Chen Jianhai (despite being a multi-millionaire) was only able to return 20.000 BTC and 140,000 USD  due to the cost of his laundering activities and also the significantly lower Bitcoin price when he cashed out.
• Chen Jianhai (before he was outed) discovers that Zhou is giving 5000 BTC out of his own pocket to Bitcoinica customers and decides to donate 100 BTC of the hacked funds to Zhou's community donation pool
• Chen Jianhai's identity is only known by Zhou, but unfortunately Chen Jianhai is now gone (phone: powered off, QQ: offline, email: no response) and the Alipay account got its password changed

Of course before Chen mysteriously disappeared Zhou stated that "Currently I'm very willing to co-operate with any investigation because this is the only way I can completely prove my innocence." and "I have repeatedly said that I have zero tolerance in this matter and I will report all his information, including his real bank account number and address to the police once the official investigation has started."

However when I wanted to file a police report with my local authorities and asked Zhou to provide me the address details for Chen, I received the following reply:

If you insist on filing a police report on this matter, any lack of co-operation from my side can of course be used against me in the uncertain future.

I'm not protecting his identity. I just deem it to be unnecessary at this point. He is not running away (AFAIK he doesn't even have a passport), and the fund return is pending Bitcoinica's liquidation.

I want to go back to my own business and focus on something productive. Any information I provide now will necessarily be a burden in the near future.

I strongly advise you not to involve the police before the liquidation process has any significant development. You are not obliged to report this. (But when you do, I'm obliged to provide information to either you, or the police, and obviously I would prefer the former.)

My point is, there is very little benefit to this, yet the risk and potential expense are too high. I don't want to hire a lawyer or waste my time on gathering evidence or whatever. I contributed 5,000 BTC and talked to the creditors regularly exactly because I wanted to avoid any lawsuits against me. I'm all for justice, but I have already given up on Bitcoin and justice in this matter seems worthless to me.

Considering the suspicion raised by community members, the questions from trusted business partners and threats of violence, I don't have any energy to fight back any more.   I just want the fiasco to be over. Yet people are giving me more and more troubles. It's okay if you can't feel the pain, please just try to sympathize.

I have plans to immigrate to Australia and I need an absolutely clean record. Even a criminal accusation (without conviction) is intolerable in the character check. I really deeply regret the creation of Bitcoinica. If you can forget about me, please do.

I'm returning to Melbourne on October 6, 2012. Hopefully something will happen at Bitcoinica side, and you have plenty time to re-consider your decision before then.

I agreed and waited for Zhou to return to Melbourne. However upon his return Zhou ignored all my follow up emails. I have never been able to obtains any details about Chen from Zhou nor have I been able to file an actionable report. In the mean time Bitcoinica creditors are still smack in the middle of what must be the largest clusterf*ck in bitcoin history with the MtGox account orphaned and frozen. The AurumXchange funds still missing and an ongoing lawsuit against the Bitcoin Consultancy by the largest creditors. Considering that Bitcoinica had around 1M USD in deposits when it got hacked, and conservatively estimating 50% of that to be in BTC, at current valuations we are talking in excess of 15,000,000 USD still pending liquidation. Or what is left of it.

Now, Zhou returns 1 year later, hoping the dust has settled with his "Hero member" tag still in tact. Well played sir!

I suggest that at the very least Zhou receives an "Untrustworthy" tag. Although I do realize that might be an insult to MNW whom I regard much more highly.

ninjarobot - this is an excellent post. Perhaps we could use this as the basis of a definitive, factual story if you and ZT agree? It would save countless retellings filled with bias and emotion and it can be linked to so people can read up on the story there when they inevitably ask for the details.

[Alex Zee]

From what I know about con-men psychology, their biggest enjoyment is not in taking things, but in the feeling of being smarter than their victims because they could trick and fool them. They see it as "outsmarting" everybody else.

So I guess Zhou now gets a nice dose of endorphins reading all these heart-warming "welcome-backs" in this topic...

[greyhawk]

You have a lot more potential than you imagine.

That's exactly what their worried about.

You're one to talk...

What Zhou needs are some good partners who know what they're doing.

Like the Mafia? 

[Alex Zee]

This is the dumbest thing ever, what is a ustream Q&A going to do, that a thread like this will not do?

It's a start. If somebody would really want to improve their reputation they would looking for ways to do it, not dodging them.

Some of us have very big doubts that he is 18 years old. People in 18 don't talk like that, no matter how smart they are, because even if you are a genius, you can't compress time. Certain way of thinking (which is exposed through the way one's structuring their sentences) comes with raw years of experience, you can't "shortcut" that. You can't just load a life, "matrix-style", into the head of a kid.

So he can easily start with proving his age. While even his age remains suspicious, why would I have any shred of trust with his new ventures?

It was pointed out here, that we are not the ones who have to prove anything. He is.

[Inedible]

This is the dumbest thing ever, what is a ustream Q&A going to do, that a thread like this will not do?

It would definitely prove his passport is the one used in the travelling claim as there's no opportunity to doctor it as it's live.

I assume the questioning session is to attempt to 'catch him out' in his 'web of lies'.

He isn't a con man, just a teenager with too much coin power, and be quite frank he is smarter than a lot of teenagers, two businesses by the time he is 18. Come on some credit and respect is due to him, but to call him a con-man is a bit overboard.

I'm not sure that proving his age will do anything. It'll quieten down some who believe if you lie about your age, all other claims against you must therefore be true but that's not really valid.

The best thing to do is to just let him prove himself in his future conduct and be wary, as you should be with all things Bitcoin.

[Este Nuno]

Zhoutong:

How do you feel about your name being often(I think? I don't watch every episode) mentioned in a negative light on a widely viewed international television network?

For others who may not be aware: Max Keiser uses the phrase "Zhoutonged" in a derogatory manner on the news network Russia Today(RT).

[Inedible]

People in 18 don't talk like that, no matter how smart they are, because even if you are a genius, you can't compress time.

He just seems well educated to me. He hasn't said anything that isn't capable of coming from a 16 yr old.

His naivety is what gives away his age. His behaviour is that of someone who wants to earn your trust and will do things that put him in the firing line by doing so.

Since his return I've noticed he's being a little more assertive and much less of a walkover which is good.



Call it projection but he reminds me of my younger self - always thinking the best of people and always hoping for the best of a bad situation and always expecting the other person to reciprocate in kind if you submit first. This attitude works only if the people you're dealing with have the same behavioural pattern but in reality, most people are out for themselves and will paint you into a corner quicker than you can turn your back.

[Alex Zee]

His behaviour is that of someone who wants to earn your trust and will do things that put him in the firing line by doing so.

So, recording a YouTube video would be no problem, right?

Let's see how it goes.

[Inedible]

His behaviour is that of someone who wants to earn your trust and will do things that put him in the firing line by doing so.

So, recording a YouTube video would be no problem, right?

Let's see how it goes.

lol so you want to put him in the firing line?

I've never disagreed that doing a Youtube video would verify his age. I'm just sceptical as to who this placates and what exactly it'll prove.

Will people believe the rest of his claims if his age is verified? I doubt it.

So the least interesting thing about this whole saga is verified and nothing else changes. I'd say that's almost not worth the effort.

Additionally, if I were ZT I'd go for the Skype verification via a moderator. There are crazy, angry people out there who could use that video for any purpose :/

[Alex Zee]

Will people believe the rest of his claims if his age is verified? I doubt it.

So the least interesting thing about this whole saga is verified and nothing else changes. I'd say that's almost not worth the effort.

You just said he "will do things that put him in the firing line", now a youtube video is "not worth the effort"?

He has to start somewhere. We don't know much tangible about him. His explanations sound like a made-up fairy tales. So posting a video seems to me like a cheap and effective way to start dealing with trust issues. And dodging it on any excuse, is an effective way to reduce thrust.

Additionally, if I were ZT I'd go for the Skype verification via a moderator. There are crazy, angry people out there who could use that video for any purpose :/

Skype would be a start, too. But with somebody really trusted by the community. Moderators are in a conflict of interest, because the forum gets some financial support from him as I understand.

[Inedible]

You just said he "will do things that put him in the firing line", now a youtube video is "not worth the effort"?

Don't get me wrong. He's done plenty to put himself in the firing line. I'm not saying he should continue to do that though. It's not worth the effort because it'd be easier for him to do a Skype with someone instead.

He has to start somewhere. We don't know much tangible about him. His explanations sound like a made-up fairy tales. So posting a video seems to me like a cheap and effective way to start dealing with trust issues. And dodging it on any excuse, is an effective way to reduce thrust.

Can't disagree there.

Skype would be a start, too. But with somebody really trusted by the community. Moderators are in a conflict of interest, because the forum gets some financial support from him as I understand.

The forum once had something like stationary or hardware that he paid for out of his own pocket but I believe it was before the fiasco. You're right though, to avoid any possibility of impropriety it should be someone not connected.

We should exclude Pirate.

[Alex Zee]

So let's see. My bet is that he will continue to either ignore any such requests or come up with more and more ridiculous excuses not to do it.

Either way, it will be entertaining to observe

[Chakraball]

I suggest that at the very least Zhou receives an "Untrustworthy" tag.

Good luck with THAT.  Zhou has paid off the forum.  Your coins are being used to update this forum's software.   

Many a true word is spoken in jest.

[zhoutong]

So let's see. My bet is that he will continue to either ignore any such requests or come up with more and more ridiculous excuses not to do it.

Either way, it will be entertaining to observe

Neither. You just lost your bet.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186261.0

Wait... What was your wager?

[Inedible]

So let's see. My bet is that he will continue to either ignore any such requests or come up with more and more ridiculous excuses not to do it.

Either way, it will be entertaining to observe

Neither. You just lost your bet.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186261.0

Wait... What was your wager?

You could have made your fortune right there!

[repentance]

That's pretty much all the available information I have. He returned almost all funds but in the wrong asset combination, and Bitcoinica failed to adjust the recovered funds to the right combination, as a result BTC liability has rocketed before the liquidation has shown any progress.

You know damned well that MtGox locked everyone out of the account after the intrusion and publicly stated that they weren't going to let anyone access the funds until the legal situation regarding who had the entitlement to distribute them was clarified.  But hey, let's just write a new narrative which makes you look like the hero, just like you always do.

[Alex Zee]

Holy shit! That was unexpected.

That's a nice start. You've just got some partial credibility in my book now.

And you must have had quite a life and be pretty smart too to write like an adult in your 18. I am surprised.

Of course, there is still a chance that your dad does all the writing and you only do "public appearances", but that sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory...

Maybe you are who you claim to be, and there indeed exists that relic millionaire collector. Crazy things happen in life. Once in a while you see a movie about some incredible story that actually did happen.

[Alex Zee]

Neither. You just lost your bet.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186261.0

Wait... What was your wager?

I didn't (carefully ) make any specific wagers, but Ok, $5 worth of bitcoins are coming your way, just for posting this video. It was worth it