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repentance
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April 25, 2013, 08:07:08 AM
 #201

14+ is allowed to fly unaccompanied internationally. Some airlines might require a signed waiver from a parent.
Over 6's are allowed to fly unaccompanied internationally.  Speaking from experience.

Different rules apply depending on the age of the child.  Generally speaking, children under 6 must be accompanied by someone 15 or over.  Children between 6 and 12 must be registered as unaccompanied minors with the airline and this places restrictions on connecting flights as well as ensuring that staff (including ground staff) keep an eye on them, escort them to and from the aircraft, through customs, etc.  Children between 12 and 15 can fly as unaccompanied minors at the request of their parents, but that status isn't given unless requested.  Children 15 and over have no special status.

Interestingly enough, if you're on the same flight as your children but in a different seating class, your children are regarded as unaccompanied minors by airlines which means you need to pay adult fare for them.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
bitclown
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April 25, 2013, 09:11:03 AM
 #202

The flight tickets, like the age, and like the passport, are just distractions from the real issue. Some of Bitcoin's most prolific scammers made no attempts to hide their true identity. One shouldn't automatically trust someone just because they put their face on YouTube, writes impressive code or arranges a meetup in Las Vegas.
sgravina
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April 25, 2013, 09:59:38 AM
 #203

Being 18 is awesome.  Congratulations.  I had my first sex when I was 18.  I've had sex almost 2000 times since and it is still awesome.

I was a lot smarter when I was 18.  My body could jump higher and didn't hurt all the time.

I look at being 18 as a kind of superpower.  Enjoy it.
Justin00
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April 25, 2013, 04:32:34 PM
Last edit: April 25, 2013, 04:51:33 PM by Justin00
 #204

Serious question (I'm going some where with this..)

Does the "relic collector  hacker" read / write English fluently ?

defxor
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April 25, 2013, 05:07:08 PM
 #205

Tihan has met Zhou. Gavin has met Tihan. That much has been known since the Bitcoinica fiasco.

That does not change the fact that the explanation that fits all known facts and requires no leaps of faith (or unicorns) when it comes to who made off with Bitcoinica's money, times two - maybe three, is Zhou and Zhou alone.

Quoting a post from way back:

This tells a lot about your attitude. I hope it is a hindsight and you didn't assume Bitcoinica to be a scammer's product when it was launched.

tl;dr: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm quite sure you launched Bitcoinica with the intention for it to provide value to the community. As initially suggested by Patrick/Intersango and others, your claims about trade volume were very suspicious. It's likely you simply exaggerated them, not unusual when being proud of what you've created.

Whether the Linode theft (where other accounts as well were swiped) just provided an excuse for some profit on the side or not I don't know, but I'm quite sure the only real money to have come out of running Bitcoinica were from user deposits. I have no personal opinion of whether it operated as a pure bucket shop or not, but others have documented the lack of visible MtGox movement even when Bitcoinica should've been hedging.

When, based on how you presented the success of Bitcoinica in public, you were approached with investment offers I believe you were simply unable to admit that it wasn't as successful as you claimed. I believe you went along way too far with whatever happened, and that the Rackspace "hack" was the simplest way out when Tihan started questioning the books. Additionally, it provided yet more profit which you might've needed to be able to keep up appearances with your friends and family.

After the very visible and complete failure by the Intersango people to handle the resulting mess I believe you made yet another profitable "hack" on the service. It wasn't as well planned nor executed as the previous, maybe it was simply opportunistic after having realized the release of the source code provided the excuse needed.

I've posted links to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudologia_fantastica and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance since I do believe they apply. I think you're currently unable to admit to yourself and people close to you where things went wrong, and you're still hoping to be able to exit this unscathed.

(I consider the above to be the simplest explanation possible that still fits all the known facts. I'm wary about the exact involvement by Amir, Patrick and Donald though - and since Tihan and Zhou supposedly have met in person it would be interesting to know exactly whom else have actually met either of them.*)

But then, the only reason I really care is that if people's only takeaway from having joined the Bitcoin community is that they get constantly scammed this will never fly. I thus believe Bitcoin fraud needs to be handled by the proper legal authorities. We're way past Mybitcoin's "as long as I give 49% back you guys won't hurt me, right?" - which btw looks suspiciously close to what you're currently trying to do as well.

*) Edit: Tihan's identity is verified by an upstanding member of the community, and thus Zhou's should be as well.


For those who don't remember, chat logs were posted where Tihan was questioning why the business they bought didn't make the money Zhou had claimed it did. That provides much of the rationale for what then happened.
akipfer
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April 25, 2013, 05:16:17 PM
 #206

It has been exactly 345 days since I left Bitcoin (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81581.0).

Nothing really has changed, except the soaring prices (it doesn't have a lot to do with me other than seeing my out-of-pocket 5,000 BTC personal compensation is valued at >$1 million at peak, that was over 80% of my entire Bitcoin savings and I didn't purchase more after the incident). Bitcoinica LP is still not liquidated with zero progress of the fund return.

In fact, I have been following the forum for some time (I changed my forum account password to resist my temptation to login again). I have been searching my name every 9 days ever since I logged out last time.

When I left Bitcoin, I felt that I was not adding value to the economy by developing Bitcoinica because speculation is a zero-sum game. But now after seeing speculative activity sky-rocketing without a viable solution to short Bitcoin: I'm feeling a bit regretful that I sold Bitcoinica.

Without selling Bitcoinica, the Linode hack would still happen, but the platform can still survive with the profits it generated. There wouldn't be the Rackspace hack or the Mt. Gox hack because the email server wouldn't be compromised and the source code wouldn't be leaked by an insider. The platform might still be around to serve Bitcoiners by maintaining the price stability more effectively than a single long-only exchange.

But that's daydream. I'm not going to start another Bitcoin exchange. Bitcoin is not just a speculative vehicle. It's the first currency/commodity/whatever with both 1) strictly limited quantities and 2) native mechanism to be transmitted over data networks. We desperately need killer apps that make Bitcoin a truly global alternative currency that replaces some of the functions of the traditional banking system. (Note that I'm not so ambitious that Bitcoin will replace fiat currencies. I think it's more beneficial to the world economy by being a parallel/alternative currency, like gold. This is just an opinion, though.)

The Bitcoin community has given me nightmares (mainly the reputation hit) but I'm never giving up on Bitcoin. True believers are going to be believers forever.

I don't really have any clear ideas at the moment, but I'll be more than happy to build a killer app for Bitcoin from stratch. If you have any thoughts, feel free to PM me or email me at bitcointalk@zhoutong.com.

I'm also answering any questions you have in this thread. I really hope that I can provide valuable service to the community and regain the lost trust/reputation by building something really useful.

PS> Despite my repeated clarifications, I want to say the same thing again:

As I had no financial interest in Bitcoinica LP after early 2012, I had no savings that were owed or distributable to Bitcoinica creditors other than the 5000 BTC compensation out of my personal funds. As I was neither the director nor an owner of any Bitcoinica-related entity since then, I had no power to do anything to help the creditors. 

I know a lot of people are being hurt by the incident. So is me. I really hope that my previous compensation was valuable and useful to the people being hurt. 5000 BTC at peak Bitcoin price was several multiples of Bitcoinica's sale price but I had no regret for doing something I could to help people in need.


Why don't u make a trader, like 'mercadolivre.com.br' where the trader, don't keep the entirely money(btc/ltc/nvc whatever is it)
is just buy and sell it to anynone, try to understand how mercadolivre.com.br works....if u understand, u will notice why im saying this...
just in case, if the trader website get hacked, all saving(almost, if not all) will be gone(stolen).
if only keep the digital currency while selling/buying, there is no such thing as that.
did u see where im going with this? also there is no BTC IS $x price, anyone buy/sell at his own price(cause MtgoX is good, but if it fall, IT FALLS, and as always, we (all other coins) FALL TOGETHER like an excrement falling from an airplane(tbbt quote ;d )

BTC 1LDZwmLNULuEKPANry5DTbH5seLKwph8ua         | [WebSite off] coopersite.com.br | Aceitaremos Moedas como pgto | Procurando franqueados!
LTC  LYMQwZbBHK2kdD7SJnxCnn8NcwbiFAmgnV        | [Twitter] https://twitter.com/allankipfer
[M.B.] Rules - [M.B.]-[Mercado Bitcoin] Esta da hora!   | [Facebook] http://www.facebook.com/allan.kipfer.tbo
bitcoinminer
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April 25, 2013, 05:25:41 PM
 #207

Getting GOXXXED or Zhonged is what BitCoin is all about.  You bring in new people, get them interested, and then crush all of their hopes and dreams.

It's sort of like being a Jehovah's Witness - you have to recruit new members Smiley

I only partially blame the scammers.  I view BitCoin as gambling, even if others dont.  I took a gamble with about 50 BTC having someone develop a site for me a year and a half ago.  It was only a couple of hundred bucks then, and of course they worked on it for awhile, then just disappeared.  Now, it's worth a few thousand and I'm a little irritated, but oh well.  That's the risk you take.

I'm working on some solutions behind the scenes to increase trust and accountability in the community.  Stay tuned over the next few months Smiley

Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful.

-Warren Buffett
gollum
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April 25, 2013, 09:53:58 PM
 #208

Zhoutong - Send me a PM if you are interested in partnership for bitcoin projects.
repentance
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April 25, 2013, 10:16:35 PM
 #209

Tihan has met Zhou. Gavin has met Tihan. That much has been known since the Bitcoinica fiasco.

That does not change the fact that the explanation that fits all known facts and requires no leaps of faith (or unicorns) when it comes to who made off with Bitcoinica's money, times two - maybe three, is Zhou and Zhou alone.

Quoting a post from way back:

This tells a lot about your attitude. I hope it is a hindsight and you didn't assume Bitcoinica to be a scammer's product when it was launched.

tl;dr: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm quite sure you launched Bitcoinica with the intention for it to provide value to the community. As initially suggested by Patrick/Intersango and others, your claims about trade volume were very suspicious. It's likely you simply exaggerated them, not unusual when being proud of what you've created.

Whether the Linode theft (where other accounts as well were swiped) just provided an excuse for some profit on the side or not I don't know, but I'm quite sure the only real money to have come out of running Bitcoinica were from user deposits. I have no personal opinion of whether it operated as a pure bucket shop or not, but others have documented the lack of visible MtGox movement even when Bitcoinica should've been hedging.

When, based on how you presented the success of Bitcoinica in public, you were approached with investment offers I believe you were simply unable to admit that it wasn't as successful as you claimed. I believe you went along way too far with whatever happened, and that the Rackspace "hack" was the simplest way out when Tihan started questioning the books. Additionally, it provided yet more profit which you might've needed to be able to keep up appearances with your friends and family.

After the very visible and complete failure by the Intersango people to handle the resulting mess I believe you made yet another profitable "hack" on the service. It wasn't as well planned nor executed as the previous, maybe it was simply opportunistic after having realized the release of the source code provided the excuse needed.

I've posted links to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudologia_fantastica and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance since I do believe they apply. I think you're currently unable to admit to yourself and people close to you where things went wrong, and you're still hoping to be able to exit this unscathed.

(I consider the above to be the simplest explanation possible that still fits all the known facts. I'm wary about the exact involvement by Amir, Patrick and Donald though - and since Tihan and Zhou supposedly have met in person it would be interesting to know exactly whom else have actually met either of them.*)

But then, the only reason I really care is that if people's only takeaway from having joined the Bitcoin community is that they get constantly scammed this will never fly. I thus believe Bitcoin fraud needs to be handled by the proper legal authorities. We're way past Mybitcoin's "as long as I give 49% back you guys won't hurt me, right?" - which btw looks suspiciously close to what you're currently trying to do as well.

*) Edit: Tihan's identity is verified by an upstanding member of the community, and thus Zhou's should be as well.


For those who don't remember, chat logs were posted where Tihan was questioning why the business they bought didn't make the money Zhou had claimed it did. That provides much of the rationale for what then happened.


Additionally, we know from Zhou's own posts that Zhou was allowed to retain all profits from Bitcoinica for several months after it was acquired by Wendon.  He was then paid between $8000 and $10,000 per month to run Bitcoinica prior to the Intersango guys coming on board (Bitcoinica was already "leaking equity" during this time).  

From documents made public by Amir, we know that following the Intersango guys coming onboard, Tihan asked Zhou not to take any further payments from Bitcoinica until the financial clusterfuck was sorted out - the Intersango guys had already agreed that they would take no payments at that time.

The Intersango guys coming onboard had a significant impact on Zhou's status within the organisation as well as the financial benefits he received from Bitcoinica.

Let's also remember that Zhou posted about changes made to the LastPass account after he'd resigned as an employee - changes he knew about because he'd tried to access it.

Zhou never played well with the Intersango guys and in my opinion he undermined them at every opportunity.  Whether he believed that if enough things went wrong he'd be put back in charge or whether he preferred to see Bitcoinica destroyed rather than under the control of others is debatable, but Zhou's ego played an enormous part in the downfall of Bitcoinica.

It's kind of horrifying that if AurumXchange had not made public the connection between the MtGox intrusion and Zhou's accounts, people would be unaware of it to this day and there may have been no recovery of any funds from that intrusion.  Recovery or not, it still stinks to high heaven that there's been no criminal investigation of that event. When that connection was established, all of the Bitcoinica hacks should have been made the subject of a criminal investigation. That Zhou actually asked people not to involve the police because it might affect the likelihood of DImmi approving his application just confirms the extent to which he acts out of self-interest.

Zhou has the self-centred teenager view that it doesn't really matter what happened because most of the funds from the MtGox intrusion were recovered.  It does matter, though, because the lion's share of the blame for the failure of Bitcoinica is being placed on others and the MtGox intrusion was what made a difficult situation irretrievable.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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