Well, well, well, now we know what Jihan Wu’s been up to.

[Killerpotleaf]

How exactly do any UASF proposals break the immutability of Bitcoin? Serious question. Ledger will remain unchanged, Bitcoins will remain unchanged. What am I missing here?

(I am asking someone to tell me like I am 5 years old without posting a wall of text and non-referenced/tagged links. We can continue talking about this stuff in the echo chamber of bitcointalk but it'd be nice to have some digestible evidence for the community at large)

Immutability of the protocol of Bitcoin. If we can mutate the protocol, then Bitcoin is not a level playing field. It looses its value as a stable metric of value which beyond the influence of anybody.

The gaming of the mining will be met by other gaming the mining. That is just free market competition. The free market finds ways around patents.

But if we have King Blockstream acting as a government lord, then Bitcoin is as worthless as any other fiat.

@gmaxwell is protecting the "improvements" he wants to make to Bitcoin's protocol. He is saying he knows what is best and will modify that level playing field. He will not be allowed to do this. He has been banished to do his scaling work on Litecoin. None of you can change this outcome. Bitcoin will retain small blocks and so Litecoin will get much of the scaling. Hope Gregory takes it in stride and doesn't get too depressed.

Immutability of the protocol, is not on the table, it never was.
The whale with a million coins willing to dump on a chain that favors improvement over stagnation, is free to make shit tons of fiat while selling us massive hoards of cheap coins.
Bitcoin is beyond the influence of any one person, but not beyond the influence of a >51% group.
Bitcoin is not what it was in 2009 bitcoin will continue to improve for better or for worst.
just because you dislike the democratic aspect of bitcoin doesn't mean its invalid.
and just because bitcoin is governed by its user base in a sorta democratic way, doesn't make it comparable to fiat.
the FED is a private organization, bitcoin is whatever most poeple agree bitcoin is.

you can argue this cheapness bitcoin's fundamental value, all day long, that will not stop core from forking bitcoin, and the whale dumping million of coins will not necessarily make everyone dismiss this fork.

bitcoin as you see it may or may not survive this.

after reviewing the available info, i am on the fence... ASCIBoosting fucks with miner incentives and if the majority want to fork away this flaw they perceive, i might side with them, i am on the fence...

[iamnotback]

Bitcoin is beyond the influence of any one person, but not beyond the influence of a >51% group.

Just remember you and I are not in that 51%, because PoW isn't one vote for each human.

None of us in this thread have any influence whatsoever on what will happen to the Bitcoin protocol.

The whales will decide. And the game theory is that they each can't defect from the protocol (because they would be fighting each other and cause mutual self-destruction), so they will destroy any fork that threatens the immutability of the free market enabled by the protocol.

The point of my prior msg was that we all don't like Satoshi's PoW, because you all prefer a democracy. You already have a democracy, it is called fiat. I think you guys are highly confused.

I don't like PoW because it will end up winner-take-all in the long-term. But I am okay with the immutability game theory of PoW that holds in the interim.


Let's step back for a moment and ask why are we all fighting each other? Why are we not contented with leaving Bitcoin the way it is and allowing the scaling to happen on an altcoin? Why don't we understand the value of immutability? Why do we want to make blockchains into governments and repeat the mistake of fiat again? We humans have learned nothing from our mistakes.

At the most generative essence level, we are fighting because fungible money forces us to. It is a fundamental flaw in the nature of money. And I am proposing a solution to that.

[Killerpotleaf]

Bitcoin is beyond the influence of any one person, but not beyond the influence of a >51% group.

Just remember you and I are not in that 51%.

None of us in this thread have any influence whatsoever on what will happen to the Bitcoin protocol.

The whales will decide.

The point of my prior msg was that you don't like Satoshi's PoW, because you prefer a democracy. You already have a democracy, it is called fiat. I think you guys are highly confused.

I am in that 51% we all are, the 51% i speak of is unmeasurable, it not 51% of hashing power, its not 51% of coins, its somthing intangible but i can FEEL i am a part of it, and i believe we have the final say, if our opinion is solicited via a forking.  

while we have very little power over what options are given to us
once a fork happens.
we are free to choose, and we are by no means forced to side with the chain that ( currently ) is getting dumped on by some whales.

I dont think i can choose to side with a whale and his un-upgradable hardware.

[iamnotback]

I am in that 51% we all are, the 51% i speak of is unmeasurable, it not 51% of hashing power, its not 51% of coins, its somthing intangible but i can FEEL i am a part of it.

Ah that lie of democracy is hard to kill in humans. You want to believe you have a vote, but we do not. We never have.

I've never voted (for decisions) in my entire life and never will. I have voted on polls, but that is a different matter of collecting information for some purpose (such as to measure interest or marketing).

What you really want is to be meaningful. And there is a solution for that:

At the most generative essence level, we are fighting because fungible money forces us to. It is a fundamental flaw in the nature of money. And I am proposing a solution to that.

[Finksy]

Efficiency advantages should not be the grounds on which to condemn Bitmain, nor should ethics or morality, these were not a part of the founding principles of Bitcoin.  It is written in the rules that PoW mining is a free market as has been said, and is subject to the rules of a free market. It's also disingenuous to claim that shortcuts in the PoW process are an exploit, if they still accomplish the same goal with the same level of security. At most they could be considered an oversight in the design of Merkle–Damgård construction, but in that case they are evenly open to said optimization (patents do not apply to this argument).  The empty block argument is also null, it does not effectively hurt the bitcoin ecosystem, it is simply a byproduct of a process improvement.  That said, I fully side with Nick Szabo in what he said:

"Secret mining advantage is expected. The problem is incentive to oppose incompatible upgrades for secret reasons."

That is it.  No condemnation of shady Chinese backdoor deals about hardware improvements, or how they potentially de-frauded their customers by selling them hardware that was neutered in order to hinder competition and hide their own advantages.  None of that has any bearing on this conversation (though ti deserves its own).  Just remove the roadblocks that hinder future improvement protocols (covert boost), and demand transparency in issues that revolve around bitcoin governance and the future of the protocol instead of hiding behind secret agendas.  

If Bitmain is already taking advantage of ASICboost covertly for their own mining, and they own the patent in their own jurisdiction (again, set morality/ethics of potential infringement aside), then what would prevent them from continuing to use ASICboost technology overtly and reap the same advantage/benefit they are already? If it's to protect the public opinion of their company, they need to take their head out of the sand. Everyone knows what they are about.

[aarturka]

Efficiency advantages should not be the grounds on which to condemn Bitmain, ...l

They are condemned not for efficiency andvantage. They are condemned for lying about Core devs and the whole situation and pushing thier buggy BU code instead of good scalling sollution. They hinder Bitcoin progress and create FUD in the community because of their stupid greedy

[Paashaas]

Jihan, Roger and almost all BU supporters are the most disgusting people i've ever seen in my whole Bitcoin ''career''.

[Killerpotleaf]

I am in that 51% we all are, the 51% i speak of is unmeasurable, it not 51% of hashing power, its not 51% of coins, its somthing intangible but i can FEEL i am a part of it.

Ah that lie of democracy is hard to kill in humans. You want to believe you have a vote, but you do not. We never have.

look at ETH / ETC
who "won" who "voted"
does anyone care? ETH and ETC both live, and no one is to say which is "best" all we can say is that CURRENTLY the market favors ETH.
what you say makes alot of sense, but it simply won't change the fact that a fork means i get choices, support one or the other or both.

[iamnotback]

That said, I fully side with Nick Szabo in what he said:

"Secret mining advantage is expected. The problem is incentive to oppose incompatible upgrades for secret reasons."

Just remove the roadblocks that hinder future improvement protocols (covert boost), and demand transparency in issues that revolve around bitcoin governance and the future of the protocol instead of hiding behind secret agendas.  

Bitmain is protecting the immutability of the protocol, which is one of the founding principles of Bitcoin. You perhaps don't realize that Bitcoin was modeled on Nash's ideal money concept, which means its protocol must never change.

Any one who tries to change the protocol of Bitcoin is the attacker. And they will be bankrupted.

You all have no vote. You think you do. But you don't. The whales will absolutely destroy any fork that significantly changes the protocol.

I am going to laughing when all you fools finally realize that the Bitcoin protocol will never change. Never.

You guys are so in love with democracy. It is pitiful. Just go use fiat then, if you want democracy.

The immutability is the only thing that makes Bitcoin different than fiat.

Bitmain is a hero. And should be exalted and praised for all the sneaky and clever things they have done in order to prevent you fools from being able to mutate the protocol.

If Bitmain is already taking advantage of ASICboost covertly for their own mining, and they own the patent in their own jurisdiction (again, set morality/ethics of potential infringement aside), then what would prevent them from continuing to use ASICboost technology overtly and reap the same advantage/benefit they are already? If it's to protect the public opinion of their company, they need to take their head out of the sand. Everyone knows what they are about.

Because they will perhaps instead release the covert upgrade (perhaps release it anonymously) to all their hardware out in the wild and since those people can't use the overt version without breaking patent laws in their non-Chinese jurisdictions, then all those miners will be forced to use the covert version and defeat the overt BIP.

Bitmain has checkmated you fools who want to mutate the protocol. They put half the fools on BU which they never intended to actually HF with, and the other half of your fools with Blockstream who they have now checkmated.

Jihan Wu is laughing his head off at you stupid cows, as you pitch fork each other to death and not even have a fucking clue why you are fighting each other. Nothing you were ever fighting for was correct or made any sense whatsoever.

Why do you think he putting short videos of pandas rolling and laughing on his Twitter. It is he way of telling you how much he is laughing at fools who don't matter.

[ebliever]

Bitmain is a hero. And should be exalted and praised for all the sneaky and clever things they have done in order to prevent you fools from being able to mutate the protocol.

Wow. Just wow.

Someone needs to produce a "Hitler discovers BU has been unmasked" video...

[Killerpotleaf]

The immutability is the only thing that makes Bitcoin different than fiat.

says the guy that owns coins on a fork of bitcoin. (litecoin)
ironic?
if immutability of the protocol is such desirable property, why'd you buy litecoin when its literally about to mutate.

[iamnotback]

says the guy that owns coins on a fork of bitcoin. (litecoin)

I sold all my LTC about a couple hours ago. I just re-entered my LTC position as we broke back above the bottom of the wedge.

Now you attack the messager who explains the inviolable reality of the situation, because you don't like reality? So when the reality kicks you in the ass, will you still blame me for reality being reality.

As if I am the God who makes reality.

[anonymoustroll420]

Network "upgrades" can still take place, and can be done via hardforks.

Not the case, many upgrades are incompatible with secret ASICBoosting. HF segwit with some small changes is compatible however.

If it were the case that ASICBoost makes all SF's impossible (doesn't seem like it TBH), having to do a HF for every upgrade would be the most painful thing ever. Take a look at how many SF there have been in the past 2 years.

[Killerpotleaf]

says the guy that owns coins on a fork of bitcoin. (litecoin)

I sold all my LTC about an hour ago.

Now you attack the messager who explains the inviolable reality of the situation, because you don't like reality? So when the reality kicks you in the ass, will you still blame me for reality being reality.

As if I am the God who makes reality.

BULLSHIT

i'd say you have invested interest in bitcoin remain stagnant and litecoin gaining advantage
and i would not be surprised to find out, alot of miners suffer from the same infection.

we must cleanse ourselves of these toxic incentives

GATHER THE PITCH FORKS!!!!!!!!

 

[mining1]

Don't forget that profit comes first then the ideology, when it comes to investors.

I personally believe the type of immutability that denies any change to the protocol is bad because it means stagnation, especially with bitcoin because it's the most flawed cryptocurrency since it came first. It's only a matter of time before it loses its domination.

[Finksy]

Bitmain is protecting the immutability of the protocol, This is simply false.  They are driven purely by self-interest, and understandably so. You are interpreting it as a campaign to protect the immutability of Bitcoin without any real evidence.

Any one who tries to change the protocol of Bitcoin is the attacker. And they will be bankrupted. That is your opinion, you are certainly entitled to it given your knowledge and experience in the matter.

You all have no vote. You think you do. But you don't. The whales will absolutely destroy any fork that significantly changes the protocol.
I am going to laughing when all you fools finally realize that the Bitcoin protocol will never change. Never.        You sound quite emotional about this, rational discussion will get you further than red-faced foot stomping.

You guys are so in love with democracy. It is pitiful. Just go use fiat then, if you want democracy.  You are making some big assumptions on this. I am not the enemy here, I don't have a side nor a dog in the fight.

Bitmain is a hero. And should be exalted and praised for all the sneaky and clever things they have done in order to prevent you fools from being able to mutate the protocol.  Bitmain is a capitalistic self-interested organization. They care about their bottom line, anything more than that is some extremist speculation at this point.

Because they will perhaps instead release the covert upgrade (perhaps release it anonymously) to all their hardware out in the wild and since those people can't use the overt version without breaking patent laws in their non-Chinese jurisdictions, then all those miners will be forced to use the covert version and defeat the overt BIP.

You seem adamant that they have positioned themselves this way in order to anonymously release the s/w for covert boosting to their customers in order to defeat the BIP collectively. That would effectively eliminate their efficiency advantage over the rest of the network once covert boosting went network-wide, costing them 10's of millions of dollars and drive the price of bitcoin down in relation (lowering competition's cost on production).  Whether they do as you say or do not will reveal their true motives (protecting immutability of bitcoin or strictly personal gain).  This really is the defining argument, if they do as you say, they truly are positioning themselves to protect the immutability of Bitcoin, as they will be giving up a SIGNIFICANT efficiency advantage to all of their competition.  If they instead switch to overt boosting, and retain their advantage strictly in-house -since patent laws prevent other jurisdictions from enacting it- it will be clear that their motives were strictly economical.  Until then how can we interpret their actions any further?

[iamnotback]

i'd say you have invested interest in bitcoin remain stagnant and litecoin gaining advantage

You can choose to follow me into LTC or be jealous.

The reason is because there are no changes going to happen to Bitcoin. Even if Bitmain didn't do what he did, the whales have been scheming for a long time to make sure that Blockstream is defeated.

I am reasonably confident in my speculation that the main whale of the Real Bitcoin (trilemma.com) was working with Bitmain to make sure all fools were prevented from harming Bitcoin with their silly "improvements".

Bitcoin was intended to be a reliable system for power brokers to transact. It is not for you and I to use. Never was designed that way. If you want to use a blockchain, then you'll need to look for a suitable altcoin that is designed for it. I suggest Litecoin makes the most sense given it is compatible with Blockstream's work. But please feel free to choose which ever altcoin you prefer. I just happen to think Litecoin is the natural choice and will receive a very significant upward revaluation now.

[franky1]

screw it lets repeat myself and add some more  to it

using gmaxweles own mindset

so libsecp256k1 "efficiency gain" is also an attack because it improved efficiency by 5x
so segwit quadratic/linear 'fix' is an attack because it improved efficiency
so fibre making its own tier ring network around the pools is an attack for propagation efficiency
so diluting full node count using prunning is an attack for making home computer efficiency
so diluting fullnodecount by having segwit nowitness mode is an attack
so making LN is an attack

.. at this point i can feel the rage of blockstreamists ready to pounce with their blockstream defender responses

so when something developed by blockstream is used to get more efficient, its ok. but its not blockstream sanctioned=attack
. hmmm i see..

might be easier for blockstreams partners to become more efficient instead of spitting out the dummy because they are not as efficient.

P.S if blockstream are so perfect and have the best codebase.. there should be no reason for so many 'fixes' via segwit because utopia should already have been coded in 2013

[Killerpotleaf]

i'd say you have invested interest in bitcoin remain stagnant and litecoin gaining advantage

You can choose to follow me into LTC or be jealous.

The reason is because there are no changes going to happen to Bitcoin. Even if Bitmain didn't do what he did, the whales have been scheming for a long time to make sure that Blockstream is defeated.

I am beginning to feel the need to flee to the LTC lifeboat.  

[iamnotback]

i'd say you have invested interest in bitcoin remain stagnant and litecoin gaining advantage

You can choose to follow me into LTC or be jealous.

The reason is because there are no changes going to happen to Bitcoin. Even if Bitmain didn't do what he did, the whales have been scheming for a long time to make sure that Blockstream is defeated.

I am beginning to feel the need to flee to the LTC lifeboat.  

Now that sounds like you are starting to accept reality.

My life seems to work out better for me when I am more realistic.

Most of the trouble I got into in my life was when I allowed myself to remain in delusions too long.

I believe all of you should have a choice. I am not against you having choice. We don't all have to agree. There are many altcoins to choose from. May the best and wisest choice(s) win.