Soooo, how about that Bitmain?

[sidehack]

Bitmain has a standing policy of putting features in their miners and not making them accessible to end users. The S7 was able to adjust core voltage in software (the hardware to do it was definitely there) much like the S9 does with auto-tuning, but controlling that ability has never been given to end users.

Changing the protocol every time someone makes a faster chip isn't really a problem, likely won't be the case. It's not the case now. The open-source bitcoin protocol change that breaks a particular manufacturer's closed-source backdoor implementation of a closed-source licensed feature, that I'm okay with.

GPU mining of alts is a fundamentally more honest way to mine alts. It's not a more honest way to mine BTC because it's not a way to mine BTC at all. But you're right, BTC miner manufacturers have been screwing people and the network since the beginning.

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[philipma1957]

Going to segwit to stop them is wrong.  Think about it.

This means every time some one makes a faster better chip btc will change to stop it from working.

it's totally in reverse, actually.
They opposed softforks (including segwit) ONLY because segwit would have broken their secret feature.
Segwit was specifically made compatible with ALL mining. It could not have been made compatible with something that was not disclosed.

Personally, i don't even care about segwit per se, but i do care about one manufacturer vetoing bitcoin's progress because they put something in their chip. You can solve this with alts or you can solve it with rendering the offender unable to do so in the future.

no  rendering the offender unable is not good.

So I build a chip with new math  that  is 5x better then any chip in the world to mine sha 256.

and segwit II is built to stop my chip.

Joe Blow builds a better chip  then mine  and segwit III stops it.

Segwit to stop asicboost  is about as bad an idea as can be.

[sidehack]

I don't design a chip, but I do come up with an idea that uses a fork of the current protocol to enable a trick to hash more efficiently. I then sit back and collect money from chip designers who want to implement that idea in an otherwise open-source endeavor. The "new math" isn't the problem, it's the one guy who does no work and profits from the labors of many in a way fundamentally at odds with the philosophy of bitcoin that's the problem. That problem is exacerbated by a single manufacturer who paid the fee and implemented the trick and didn't allow the buyers of their hardware access to it (and other features). My opinion, screw those guys and the horse they rode in on.

But Phil, there's a lot of stuff you and I will never agree on.

[Biodom]

no  rendering the offender unable is not good.

So I build a chip with new math  that  is 5x better then any chip in the world to mine sha 256.

and segwit II is built to stop my chip.

Joe Blow builds a better chip  then mine  and segwit III stops it.

Segwit to stop asicboost  is about as bad an idea as can be.

it would have been bad if it WAS as you described it, but it is NOT so.
Segwit was built a long time ago when nobody knew about the secret asicboost feature.
I am not sure what is the contention since timeframes are clear.
as sidehack had said, if an open protocol breaks some secret undisclosed feature of some asshole hardware implementation, so be it.
A feature of an open system, not a flaw.

That said, i am not a segwit proponent or opponent, but count me in opposition to undisclosed secret features that results in delays of the protocol development.

[sidehack]

For the record, I've had my nose so deep in my own hardware projects that I actually have zero idea what "segwit" even means, so like Biodom I'm not in favor or opposed (as I lack the requisite information to have an opinion). But I am in favor of specifically not ASICBOOST and more specifically not screwing customers.

[VentMine]

I'll pay a premium, anything to avoid these criminals

No you wont, and neither will anyone else. Thats why the market is the way it is....

You know what? You're probably right.

But, there will come a day (probably when we are close to the limit of chip efficiency) where there will be multiple manufacturers. Sure, I will indeed continue to buy the best miners for now (Bitmains), but they've destroyed their brand as far as I'm concerned. As soon as I have another choice, I'm going with it.

[Tesorex]

Something you all are missing, it's only a little world this crypto currency world and only the coders and nerds are in it with their money.
Go to the street and ask from 100 people passing by and 99 will tell you that they even know what bitcoin or alt coins are.
I mean how can I know if I'm mining the same amount of coins with the same GPU/CPU/ASIC as the other guy? not considering the electricity cost, anyways someone could steal electricity from government and practically mine coins with advantage over everyone else right?

[philipma1957]

I don't design a chip, but I do come up with an idea that uses a fork of the current protocol to enable a trick to hash more efficiently. I then sit back and collect money from chip designers who want to implement that idea in an otherwise open-source endeavor. The "new math" isn't the problem, it's the one guy who does no work and profits from the labors of many in a way fundamentally at odds with the philosophy of bitcoin that's the problem. That problem is exacerbated by a single manufacturer who paid the fee and implemented the trick and didn't allow the buyers of their hardware access to it (and other features). My opinion, screw those guys and the horse they rode in on.

But Phil, there's a lot of stuff you and I will never agree on.

yep  but we agree on enough including agreeing to sometimes disagree.

Back to post

    My take is the amount of sleaze shown by  bitmain and quite a few other asic companies  has been really bad.

  The asic-boost was mentioned for more then six months.  It is not new   it is old  in fact  it may be older then segwit  any date for segwit?

asic-boost news was floating around since  pre s-9  which would be  last  feb 2016  maybe just maybe as old as  dec 2015.(iirc)

how old is segwit? 

[Biodom]

Segwit concept was first introduced at the Scaling Bitcoin conference (Dec 6-7th 2015).
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/segregated-witness-part-how-a-clever-hack-could-significantly-increase-bitcoin-s-potential-1450553618/
It probably was in the works for month(s) beforehand.

ASICBOOST paper was published during March of 2016
http://www.math.rwth-aachen.de/~Timo.Hanke/AsicBoostWhitepaperrev5.pdf

[philipma1957]

Segwit concept was first introduced at the Scaling Bitcoin conference (Dec 6-7th 2015).
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/segregated-witness-part-how-a-clever-hack-could-significantly-increase-bitcoin-s-potential-1450553618/
It probably was in the works for month(s) beforehand.

ASICBOOST paper was published during March of 2016
http://www.math.rwth-aachen.de/~Timo.Hanke/AsicBoostWhitepaperrev5.pdf

Hmmm I am lazy but pretty sure ASIC boost was mentioned n this forum in dec 2015.

Almost like the disease and the cure came at the same time.

Ever think ASIC boost does not work well but was created to make the sale for segwit to be put in?

I have and never talked about it much.

My issue with segwit is pretty simple I think it will kill Btc.

my issue with -ASIC boost and bu is bitmain scores again.

But as a small player I can mine gpu alt to.btc with bu
Segwit scares me as it will be the complete end to btc.

Now with ltc doing it maybe we can see how it works before we jump to it.

[philipma1957]

My issue with segwit is pretty simple I think it will kill Btc.

What ? You're insane. Why do you think segwit will kill BTC ? That doesn't make any sense.

I actually like that you think I am insane.
Time will tell if segwit ever gets approved .

And if it works well.

The op is angry bitmain cheats.

Get over it mine gpus to get an alt to trade for btc.

Realize the all ASIC companies cheat one way or the other .

If you don't see that gpu is a better way to keep asics in line .

Maybe your insane not me.😀

[philipma1957]

My issue with segwit is pretty simple I think it will kill Btc.

What ? You're insane. Why do you think segwit will kill BTC ? That doesn't make any sense.

<words>

Still waiting on why you think segwit will kill BTC...

I don't need to explain why  in order to think it will kill BTC.

I Have no reason  as you said I am insane.

Which means my reasoning is not valid so I simply think segwit will' kill btc.

I think lots of things some turn out true some don't.
My thoughts on segwit killing btc are just that thoughts.
At this point in the coin game pretty much anything can happen.
The industry is still under 30 billion in coin value that's all coins.
The gear mining coins is about 750 million in gpu gear maybe a billion
And maybe 2 billion in asics.
So 3 billion in gear.
Lots can happen.
Including a shift away from btc to multiple alt coins.

[HagssFIN]

I hope that we can get some useful info from the upcoming Litecoin Segwit (it will happen most likely) and then when all the info is on the table, come to some kind of consensus, the best option for Bitcoin's future.

What ever the solution will be it must be for the best for Bitcoin.
No fork should be made for some company's best and for example for Asicboost's best.

I think that as a big Bitcoin industry company Bitmain has not been up to Bitcoin's best and be a responsible company, but all the possibilities and forks it is willing to accept are connected to possibility to use ASICBoost and have better price/coin ratio a.k.a. make more profit.

[philipma1957]

I hope that we can get some useful info from the upcoming Litecoin Segwit (it will happen most likely) and then when all the info is on the table, come to some kind of consensus, the best option for Bitcoin's future.

What ever the solution will be it must be for the best for Bitcoin.
No fork should be made for some company's best and for example for Asicboost's best.

I think that as a big Bitcoin industry company Bitmain has not been up to Bitcoin's best and be a responsible company, but all the possibilities and forks it is willing to accept are connected to possibility to use ASICBoost and have better price/coin ratio a.k.a. make more profit.

I would like to see LTC run segwit  for 2-3 months myself.

We are in uncharted waters  with any coin that is crypto based.     BTC is the oldest  with more mined wealth sitting in btc addys then all other coins combined.

around 20 billion in BTC is out of the the emptiness of cyberSpace stored in  btc addys.

(main reason I am against segwit) 

If we do segwit lets be sure it can be done on a smaller model like LTC.