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Author Topic: it is Core, not Bitman blocking segwit  (Read 5364 times)
AgentofCoin
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April 06, 2017, 09:55:08 PM
 #21

Using ASICBoost prevents many forms of development that helps
scaling and non-scaling issues. It is potentially more serious
than anything else currently.

asic boost has been around longer.
easy fix.. make software that doesnt hurt the hardware.. not the other way round.

cant blame the hardware of 2 years ago for software problems of 6 months go
...

No. The mining community agreed not to use ASICBoost for many different reasons.
In fact, today, no miner that I am aware of openly admits using it, since its taboo.

In addition, using that on a large scale would hinder many importation developments
that can not be implemented as cleanly as with new Coinbase references.

The Miners can not dictate the direction of efficient new features and optimization.
They need to perform the full PoW and that is all. If they make custom hardware
that cheats the PoW, that was a risky move that the rest of the community does
not need to be subjected to, neither the innocent users or innocent miners.

That was their financial gamble. Some dice rolls are one too many.
In time, we will learn what the true scale and impact this issue is.


I support a decentralized & unregulatable ledger first, with safe scaling over time.
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April 06, 2017, 10:00:39 PM
Last edit: April 06, 2017, 10:14:32 PM by franky1
 #22

Bitmain in their recent statement admitted that there chips have ASICBoost
built in, but have not used them on the main chain. Are you calling Bitmain
timetravelers then? Obviously not. This means they had them for a longer
time than people assumed.
what i mean is asicboost is not a "segwit attack/exploit"
asicboost is just an efficiency gain.. end off..

its greg denying his bad code, by using his snobbery to hide that his code is just not compatible with hardware of 2 years ago

When SegWit was released, Bitmain and it's pool, Antpool, did not yet know
that the Coinbase reference is added to with anchor codes. When they learned
it did, they likely began to oppose SegWit on those grounds secretly but
declared publicly it was because there would be no 2MB blocks.

so they said no to segwit because they knew segwit had a incompatibility bug with efficient hardware..
EG like saying you cant use bitcoin with an ATI GPU in 2011, because of an issue that was added in code in 2011 that only works with geforce GPU's

do you blame ATI or the code writers for not making mining easy.

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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April 06, 2017, 10:02:45 PM
 #23

Aren't miners now all mining with ASICs? then how can they vote for something that will defuse them makes them useless?
Changing POW of bitcoin to what exactly? what can we mine bitcoin with after such a change? let them cheat in mining we
just need to get involved in trading bitcoin, it's not like common folks can jump in mining with their laptops or desktops
after POW changes anyways.
AgentofCoin
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April 06, 2017, 10:25:36 PM
 #24

Bitmain in their recent statement admitted that there chips have ASICBoost
built in, but have not used them on the main chain. Are you calling Bitmain
timetravelers then? Obviously not. This means they had them for a longer
time than people assumed.
what i mean is asicboost is not a "segwit attack/exploit"
asicboost is just an efficiency gain.. end off..
...

I agree. ASICBoost was not intended to prevent SegWit and I don't think
anyone is reasonably thinking that. The issue is that allowing ASICBoost to
continue and be used through the mining community makes development in
certain aspects very restrictive and harder to do. Satohi's Fraud Proofs
relied on the Coinbase Ref idea and expected that Coinbase refs will be used
in the future to help improve the network. Widespread ASICBoost use will
prevent that avenue we have, potentially indefinitely.


When SegWit was released, Bitmain and it's pool, Antpool, did not yet know
that the Coinbase reference is added to with anchor codes. When they learned
it did, they likely began to oppose SegWit on those grounds secretly but
declared publicly it was because there would be no 2MB blocks.

so they said no to segwit because they knew segwit had a incompatibility bug with efficient hardware..
EG like saying you cant use bitcoin with an ATI GPU in 2011, because of an issue that was added in code in 2011 that only works with geforce GPU's

do you blame ATI or the code writers for not making mining easy.

I disagree. The use of the ASICBoost mechanism prevents improvements to
the Bitcoin network. It is not an optimization of the mining process. In fact, it
uses a short cut or loophole. When GPUs became ASICs that is somewhat acceptable,
since that was a true optimization in technology. ASICBoost exploits a failing in PoW
which creates non-mining and far reaching problems for the community.

It is one thing to create new mining devices to beat your competitors, its another to
find "zero-days" which could be used to beat your competitor as well as prevent
further expansion of the bitcoin code in ways that even Satoshi envisioned.
That is the difference here. One is natural, the other is a bug exploit.

I support a decentralized & unregulatable ledger first, with safe scaling over time.
Request a signed message if you are associating with anyone claiming to be me.
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April 06, 2017, 10:29:21 PM
 #25

I disagree. The use of the ASICBoost mechanism prevents improvements to
the Bitcoin network. It is not an optimization of the mining process. In fact, it
uses a short cut or loophole.When GPUs became ASICs that is somewhat acceptable,
since that was a true optimization in technology.ASICBoost exploits a failing in PoW
which creates non-mining and far reaching problems for the community.

It is one thing to create new mining devices to beat your competitors, its another to
find "zero-days" which could be used to beat your competitor as well as prevent
further expansion of the bitcoin code in ways that even Satoshi envisioned.


prevent improvements?

seriously..!!
then gmaxwell should could program new code that does work. rather than be adement that the code should not change one bit but hardware should..

blaming hardware is no excuse for sloppy code.
especially when the code doesnt live up to ANY of its promises anyway.

i can think of many ways to fix it in software but after dealing with his snobbery last year where it took a good 6 months for him to accept the issue was an issue and then without admission change a few things round.. screw it if im gonna help him again

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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April 06, 2017, 10:37:24 PM
 #26

"it is Core, not Bitman blocking segwit"

Do you not see how ridiculous this sounds to even the most minimally informed person? You're way past the point where the best thing you could do is just... stop writing. Just stop. Just walk away from the keyboard and tell Roger/Jihan you can't do this any more.

Luke 12:15-21

Ephesians 2:8-9
AgentofCoin
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April 06, 2017, 10:38:18 PM
 #27

I disagree. The use of the ASICBoost mechanism prevents improvements to
the Bitcoin network. It is not an optimization of the mining process. In fact, it
uses a short cut or loophole.When GPUs became ASICs that is somewhat acceptable,
since that was a true optimization in technology.ASICBoost exploits a failing in PoW
which creates non-mining and far reaching problems for the community.

It is one thing to create new mining devices to beat your competitors, its another to
find "zero-days" which could be used to beat your competitor as well as prevent
further expansion of the bitcoin code in ways that even Satoshi envisioned.


prevent improvements?

seriously..!!
then gmaxwell should could program new code to fix it.

blaming hardware is no excuse for sloppy code.
especially when the code doesnt live up to ANY of its promises anyway.

It is not about Maxwell and SegWit.
It is about restricting certain avenues of development because a miner took a risk and lost.
You are advocating that this miner is "too big to fail" and so the community needs to bail them out.

The community should not be subjected to this miner's bad business decisions.
That is anti-Bitcoin and anti-Satoshi. We are not Ethereum.
Optimizations are acceptable, "zero-day" like exploits in PoW is playing fast and loose.

It needs to be patched. In time the mining community will likely agree.

I support a decentralized & unregulatable ledger first, with safe scaling over time.
Request a signed message if you are associating with anyone claiming to be me.
jonald_fyookball (OP)
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April 06, 2017, 10:38:29 PM
 #28


Those aren't irrelevant. This may be the real issue at hand....

snip

Blocksize debate is irrelevant in this current issue....  

To you it may be the current issue.  

To me, its a non-issue.

To me, Blocksize debate is the only issue
that's important.  Everything else is a distraction.

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April 06, 2017, 10:40:22 PM
 #29

You guys are in full damage control mode today, huh? I see all the familiar faces (all 4 of you) posting like madmen.

Did something happen today? Did I miss something? I've been busy the last few days and I feel like I'm missing some good news. The price went up a decent amount which was unexpected with all of the turmoil going on.
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April 06, 2017, 10:41:36 PM
 #30

core has a bug in its code where it cannot accept 2MB blocks

NOW its clear why they didnt honer the HK argument and get segwit activated

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ebliever
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April 06, 2017, 10:49:43 PM
 #31

You guys are in full damage control mode today, huh? I see all the familiar faces (all 4 of you) posting like madmen.

Did something happen today? Did I miss something? I've been busy the last few days and I feel like I'm missing some good news. The price went up a decent amount which was unexpected with all of the turmoil going on.

!!!

You've basically missed the biggest news since the collapse of Mt. Gox. Maybe bigger. Rather than try to summarize it for you, just start digesting these:

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-April/013996.html

https://medium.com/@WhalePanda/asicboost-the-reason-why-bitmain-blocked-segwit-901fd346ee9f

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/mining-manufacturer-blocking-segwit-benefit-asicboost/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/63qaps/a_list_of_all_the_bu_supporter_concocted/

Luke 12:15-21

Ephesians 2:8-9
Quantus
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April 06, 2017, 10:58:47 PM
 #32

This is a shill thread.

(I am a 1MB block supporter who thinks all users should be using Full-Node clients)
Avoid the XT shills, they only want to destroy bitcoin, their hubris and greed will destroy us.
Know your adversary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
Alex.BTC
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April 07, 2017, 07:42:35 AM
Last edit: April 07, 2017, 08:09:26 AM by Alex.BTC
 #33

1. Jihan supported before understanding the final SegWit Implementation code. After learning the Coinbase references are used, he would obviously retract that support.

This is the same kind of idiotic argument I keep seeing around here.

The problem with your story is that you simply don't know what Jihan knew, and it was Greg who broke the HK agreement, not Jihan.

I know you tried your best to pretend to be logical, but in the end you just failed the simple common sense test. This is what happens when you have to make something sound 10 times more complex than it actually is.

2. Extension blocks do not change the Coinbase references, only add new anchor txs.
Those anchor txs should not effect the way ASICBoost works, the way new Coinbase refs do.

You're just trying to misdirect people without technical background here, the key to ASICBoost is the rearrangement of tx in a block, SegWit makes it costly to rearrange tx, so does Ext Block.

Granted there was still a little loop hole remaining in the tx in the canonical block, but it's so easy to fix, after Greg's crying, the Ext Block devs just eliminated the entire ASICBoost issue by adding 2 words in the Ext Block spec.

Just add a little extra crap to the merkle root calculation step, and ASICBoost instantly becomes a total non-issue, that is how small an issue this is, this is how weak your speculation is.

3. This comment is jumping the gun. In depth investigations begin now.

And yours is a year late. The ASICBoost issue is over 2 years old, Core/Blockstream already cried about it a year ago, nobody gave a fuck. Stop pretending ASICBoost is some newly discovered game changing trick only Bitmain knew about until today.

30 Apr 2016 Luke Parker: AsicBoost claims 20% efficiency improvement in Bitcoin mining
13 May 2016 - ‏@olivierjanss: Note to miners: We, the core devs, discovered a patented optimization in your ASIC. We will make it obsolete in the next update.

4. This data set should be larger and go farther back in time. Likely prior to the patent dates.
The ASICBoost could be throttled from time to time to prevent obvious indicators.

So go ahead and gather older data then, you're the accuser here, the burden of proof is on you, so back up your accusations with facts instead of pure speculations, prophecies and red herrings.

5. Fees are irrelevant here. The exploit centers around gaining more block rewards.
In a future with less block reward and more fees, this exploit is worthless.
That fact was for the idiots who keep regurgitating the 'AntPool is using ASICBoost to mine empty blocks' bullshit script.

6. We need independent verification, which will begin now.
Blockstream already spent a year digging and got nothing solid on Bitmain. All Blockstream got is 'ASICBoost maybe used in the future', but it's obvious Bitmain/AntPool will be instantly caught if they actually use ASICBoost in any meaningful way that affect results.

It would likely be best for you to stop quoting Alex.BTC since it is obvious that he
is not interested in learning anything, but perpetuating the obfuscations.
In time, all will be revealed. This is a new development and nicely explains many
previously unknown factors. If motive needed to be determined, this would be a
reasonable assumption to investigate further, and so the community will.

Your adherents to your viewpoints in light of new information still being gathered, is telling.

This is hilarious, all I did was post facts, and all you did was make speculations and then justify them by acting like some cult prophet talking bullshit prophecies  (read: Charles Manson/Heaven's Gate).

ASICBoost is an old issue, Greg is using it again as a distraction, get that through your head.

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April 07, 2017, 10:25:51 AM
 #34

Maxwell is a liar

Now you're getting it.  Wink

 Cool
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April 07, 2017, 10:27:25 AM
 #35

This is a shill thread.


Maybe you should change your name to This is a shill thread.

It is all you seem to say.  Cheesy

Does that make you sad?  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


 Cool

paul gatt
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April 07, 2017, 11:54:19 AM
 #36

Why does this always bring controversy among all people? Is segwit really necessary for bitcoin for people to target it? I feel bored when this is constantly being debated. If segwit is really needed, why do not people still choose it? Why is it not accepted by everyone? and why Bitcoin still thrive without it? I like bitcoin as present, strong and agile. We do not need something new just to make more losses, BU is an example.
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April 07, 2017, 11:55:34 AM
 #37

found this on r/btc: "Bitmain signed the HK agreement and we support SegWit as long as there is a block size bump up hard fork. So it cannot claim that Bitmain is against SegWit.”
---


I now expect Core shills to complain about a HF.  HF aren't bad if everyone agrees on the change...
guess what, the only people against 2mb/segwit is Core.







This is a very surprising turn of events and this kind of move by bitmain was a good move and will place the core on the edge. We dont know how the core will answer to this kind of movement but I guess they will not give a reply and continue to proceed on their original plan.  Well let us just hope that everything will turn out well and that both groups will agree to something for the sake of bitcoin and the community.
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April 07, 2017, 12:01:06 PM
 #38

Isn't the patent a big problem?
This looks like a failure scenario for bitcoin that i never envisioned before.
A few years ago, the classic newbe question was " what if minning function was hacked?" or "omg quantum computer"
and the classic answer was that it cannot be hacked, any efficiency gain would spread to minner or a consensus people will occur because otherwise btc die..

But patent changes that.
If a proprietary code afford a bonus in mining efficiency then a manufacturer can have a monopole on asic production, or a miner can out-price all the other miners ....

I am not an expert here but i belive that something should be done to prevent this asicboost patent from working asap. It should not include anything else. And maybe after that the community will be more united...

The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the
minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions

Satoshi Nakamoto : https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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April 07, 2017, 12:06:08 PM
 #39


I am not an expert here but i belive that something should be done to prevent this asicboost patent from working asap.

Yes, to his credit Greg already created a BIP for that.

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April 07, 2017, 12:34:20 PM
 #40

found this on r/btc: "Bitmain signed the HK agreement and we support SegWit as long as there is a block size bump up hard fork. So it cannot claim that Bitmain is against SegWit.”
---


I now expect Core shills to complain about a HF.  HF aren't bad if everyone agrees on the change...
guess what, the only people against 2mb/segwit is Core.

By everyone you mean Chinese miners? if hard fork with 95% consensus it's fine if soft fork with 75% consensus it's fine but changing protocol as soon as you reach 51%+ hash power it's not fine. instead of dying from the shame of mining with a significant advantage over others now you guys are distracting all the attentions away from asicboost?

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